Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[cross16]

I guess I just don't view the "he's taken this team as far as he can" as an insult or an indictment to his coaching job. The average coach in the NHL lasts under 3 years and at the time Hartley was fired he was the 8th most tenured coach in the NHL with the same organization. I think he ran his course, like the vast majority of coaches do. 

[MAC331]

I ....just ...Don't see why any of that would have come as a surprise....other than JH taking the top line. And even that, should have been seen as a possibility. Definitely the 2nd line.

Extremely short sighted. Again, the GM is paid to have that vision. With BT, that vision has been hit and miss.

Fine...ok. So we don't crucify him. I get that. Just don't get why it's ok to crucify BH for things the GM was clearly responsible for.

Honestly...I think BH did BT a favor many times....like utilizing Engelland for every last penny. Had he not done that it would have gone down as one of the worst all time moves in the league.

I was ok with this year, and the gradual progress...until I found out that BT thought he had put a winning team together and BH was in the way. If the moves BT made were for immediate success....well then we have an issue....that won't get solved by firing the coach.

Again ....not so much the firing...but the reasons given. ...they are very concerning.

Are not all visions prone to adjustments. I was one that also thought the best move for Gaudreau was a year in the AHL. He has proved to be a special talent. He also rendered Raymond useless in the process. These things happen. Nobody bats 1000.

[phoenix66]

I guess I just don't view the "he's taken this team as far as he can" as an insult or an indictment to his coaching job. The average coach in the NHL lasts under 3 years and at the time Hartley was fired he was the 8th most tenured coach in the NHL with the same organization. I think he ran his course, like the vast majority of coaches do.

I'm very confused by this as well. It's like the analogy I used earlier about baseball pitchers. Hartley was the starter.. Now he's being pulled for the middle relief guy or closer. That's all.

Keenan in his prime was a closer, Bob Johnson was a starter,Terry Crisp was a closer.

Bowman pitched more complete games than any coach ever:)

I don't know how else BT could have said it.i agree, we were not going to win a Stanley Cup under this guy.

[jjgallow]

Are not all visions prone to adjustments. I was one that also thought the best move for Gaudreau was a year in the AHL. He has proved to be a special talent. He also rendered Raymond useless in the process. These things happen. Nobody bats 1000.

 

....kind of feel like Raymond did that to himself ( or is body did), to be honest.  Happens when you fill spots with guys approaching 30 when you have Numerous prospects waiting to jump in.  Nothing wrong with having two top LWs, not sure who the second one is that pushed Raymond out.   And, Raymond is the least of the issues.

[CheersMan]

True. 

 

I don't usually like to speculate but there is alot of chatter out there that more than a few players were less than complimentary towards Hartley in their post season meeting. Sure sounds like a lot of the players told Treliving they felt it was time for a change. 

 

I think this statement is getting further and further from the truth.

Gaudreau and Monahan were leaned on heavily playing top line and specialty team minutes, 19-20min/GP.

Gio getting the hard minutes with 25 min/GP.

Hamilton earning more and more ice time with each game played, 20min/GP.

Brodie 25 min plus.

Bennett playing second line minutes.

Backlund and Colborne with career years.

Frolik playing anywhere needed.

I’m not sure how any of the above guys could be upset with how they were treated by BH, the opinions (if negative) of the remaining role players doesn’t really matter.

[jjgallow]

Not personal at all actually, I just don't understand where you are getting these "reasons" from and why they are so concerning to you. 

.....

I'm also just surprised because you are a look to the future type of guy JJ. 

 

imho, I got them from the press conference.   Maybe I interpret it differently (I'm not the only one), but the moment you assume you're the only one who listened, is the moment others will see it as personal, especially if you point them out.   Which would...sort of be fine, but if I come back 1-2 years and say "I told you so", we both know it will be taken in the absolute worst way.  So I'm explaining, now, how that's spawned.

 

I'm not saying that Hartley was the right fit.   You're right about that.   Completely.   But Treliving said some things towards the end of the PC that suggested, to me, that he expected better "play in front of the goaltender" this year, and he Did bring up goaltending as one of the reasons, even if he said it started with him.

 

It leaves me concerned, and wondering if Treliving understands what this team really is on paper.  What it really was on paper at the beginning of last season, and what he's subtracted from it since.

 

So, Maybe this will all turn out fine, and the words don't matter, and he signs a great coach and a gets a great goalie, etc., etc....

 

Or maybe he makes some moves that make Engellend look brilliant in comparison....

 

Either way, not impressed with his reasoning, and, yes, listened to the PC.

[travel_dude]

....kind of feel like Raymond did that to himself ( or is body did), to be honest.  Happens when you fill spots with guys approaching 30 when you have Numerous prospects waiting to jump in.  Nothing wrong with having two top LWs, not sure who the second one is that pushed Raymond out.   And, Raymond is the least of the issues.

 

The NHL is full of productive guys approaching 30.  In fact, that is the tail end of the prime years.  There was no reason for BT to think Raymond couldn't come in and score 20 goals.  Sometimes players just don't fit.  Hartley's system does not fit all players. Perhaps we are even giving him too much credit for what Johnny and Monahan accomplished.  How long did it take to put Johnny and Monahan together?  About half a season.  If a suitable replacement for Hudler could have been found earlier, then this year could have been a top 2 season for Johnny.  

 

Anyway, I digress.  

 

BT gets a lot of flack for a few roster decisions, goaltending, and firing BH.  The timing makes people question it.  I look back to last season during a bad losing streak.  He supported the coach then.  The team rallied and managed to make the playoffs in spite of some of the curious coaching decisions.  BT had two years of Hartley's decision making to evaluate.  I think he had seen enough.

[cross16]

I think this statement is getting further and further from the truth.

Gaudreau and Monahan were leaned on heavily playing top line and specialty team minutes, 19-20min/GP.

Gio getting the hard minutes with 25 min/GP.

Hamilton earning more and more ice time with each game played, 20min/GP.

Brodie 25 min plus.

Bennett playing second line minutes.

Backlund and Colborne with career years.

Frolik playing anywhere needed.

I’m not sure how any of the above guys could be upset with how they were treated by BH, the opinions (if negative) of the remaining role players doesn’t really matter.

 

It wasn't a lack of opportunity or an issue with utilization it is a communication issue. I understands it's speculative and by no means does anyone have to believe it but I've heard it from enough people and enough people I trust to believe it to be true. Hartley is not an easy guy to play for, never has been so I don't think it should come as a surprise that players soured on him. 

 

 

 

I'm not saying that Hartley was the right fit.   You're right about that.   Completely.   But Treliving said some things towards the end of the PC that suggested, to me, that he expected better "play in front of the goaltender" this year, and he Did bring up goaltending as one of the reasons, even if he said it started with him.

 

It leaves me concerned, and wondering if Treliving understands what this team really is on paper.  What it really was on paper at the beginning of last season, and what he's subtracted from it since.

 

OK, my apologies then JJ if i crossed the line and you felt I made it personal that was not my intention. 

 

IN regards to the play in front of the net that was a coaching issue and not a talent one. There were teams with far less talent than the Flames that were able to do a better job of limiting in tight and scoring chances. Flames chose to leave the front of their net unprotected and instead focus on blocking shots. How many times this year did we see someone wide open in front of the net with no one with 3 feet of them? That's not an individual talent issue or not a defender issue that a systems issue and that is what I think Treliving meant by that. I think the Flames have more than enough talent to not be ranked almost dead last in scoring chances given up or high danger scoring chances given up. 

[DirtyDeeds]

I do get what you are saying, and like BT I agree that there is blame to be shared.I liked Bob,and I wouldn't have been disappointed if he was given his do over but there are many reasons I agreed with BT's assessment. All of which are solely on the coach which affected our season and didn't bode well for the future

1) we were not ready to start the season. Why? Aside from Gio nobody has an excuse for the way we started.were players not prepared? Out of shape?

How about Injured. It was obvious to even the untrained eye, how much we missed Brodie when he finally returned. BH tried hard to play Hamilton top pairing but it wasn't his fault they did not play well and it wasn't BH's fault Gio was still getting rid of rust. You know all this so why are you even asking why?

2) handling of the 3 goalies.. This whole sequence was bungled.we can pick it apart any way we like over in the goalie thread, but bottom line is he mishandled it.

BH did not mishandle the goalies. He played the 2 of the 3 he thought would be best. Ortio did not have a good preseason so was odd man out in the rotation. Any competent coach knows you can't run 3 goalies. It just does not work. BH has said many times 3 goalies don't work so why do you blame him? BT already took the blame for keeping 3 goalies and creating that mess.

3) we didn't adapt..it was clear early on that teams were ready for our system.. Nothing changed

4) he had players at his disposal he could have used to send a message.where was the benching like he gave to Wideman last year, this year?

They can smile and say publicly all they want..but it's obvious there was a disconnect between coach and GM.he got him some shiny new toys and coach insisted on using the old ones, he was reluctant to insert call us into the line up until he had no choice, he insisted on playing Hiller when he could, even tho this was the Goalie BT tried to unload in the offseason.

What part of Hiller and Ramo had a better preseason than Ortio do you not understand? It had nothing to do with who BT tried to trade and failed to trade. BH did what any coach would do. Take his best two goalies from preseason and let then run with the ball... The goalies failed.. not the coach....

I don't know if he was secretly ticked His best friend got canned and was doing his best to win With "his" players? Or played Hiller so much to amplify the "this is the guy YOU got me" point, but it doesn't take a psychiatrist to see these 2 were not on the same page. And unless you're winning the coach always loses that battle

Huh?

I fully agree with BT on this one.. I think he had gone as far as he could. Now, the Heat is on BT completely. His guy better pay off and he better supply the players his guy needs.

It is always so much easier to just dump on the fired guy. It makes everything that is left look so much rosier..

 

It couldn't possibly be the goaltenders who screwed up could it? No BH did not strap on the pads  he must be the reason why they failed miserably.

 

BH had no business putting Hamilton with Gio to start the season. He was only touted to be the steal of the decade on D right???

[conundrumed]

It is always so much easier to just dump on the fired guy. It makes everything that is left look so much rosier..

 

It couldn't possibly be the goaltenders who screwed up could it? No BH did not strap on the pads  he must be the reason why they failed miserably.

 

BH had no business putting Hamilton with Gio to start the season. He was only touted to be the steal of the decade on D right???

You're good DD, I'll give you that. I agree with your points, but it's probably time to move on.

With the hairy eyeball on BT of course...

[kehatch]

I will say this. If you wait to fire the coach until everyone is happy about the firing then you probably waited too long.

[conundrumed]

I will say this. If you wait to fire the coach until everyone is happy about the firing then you probably waited too long.

Impartial to the firing, but the roster is currently a mess. Hence the hairy eyeball lol.

[kehatch]

Impartial to the firing, but the roster is currently a mess. Hence the hairy eyeball lol.

Of course it's a mess. We are neck deep in a rebuild. But that doesn't mean you give the coach a free pass.

Too many people seem to think a bad roster = bad GM which = coach has no accountability.

Treliving has improved the talent pool and is moving the team in the right direction. Apparently Treliving didn't believe Hartley was the coach for the direction they were moving. Fair enough. Move on.

[conundrumed]

Of course it's a mess. We are neck deep in a rebuild. But that doesn't mean you give the coach a free pass.

Too many people seem to think a bad roster = bad GM which = coach has no accountability.

Treliving has improved the talent pool and is moving the team in the right direction. Apparently Treliving didn't believe Hartley was the coach for the direction they were moving. Fair enough. Move on.

No one suggested the coach gets a free pass and no accountability.

All accountability is now on the GM.

Fair enough.

[kehatch]

No one suggested the coach gets a free pass and no accountability.

All accountability is now on the GM.

Fair enough.

You may not have. But there are plenty of posts that suggest that a coach couldn't be successful given the goaltending and roster so firing him is unfair. But the reality is there are plenty of other ways to measure performance that go beyond the standings.

I do agree that the accountability is now on the GM. But I think people need to be patient. We are still in a rebuild and we could very well be looking at another top 10 pick next season.

But I am not judging success (coaching or GM) based on that. Treliving has added Hamilton, Frolik, and others without giving up much and he has improved our prospect pipeline by adding picks and good prospects like Pollock and Shinkaruk. He has also signed our core players to very reasonable contracts. If he can sign Gaudreau and Monahan to good deals, make a smart coaching hire, and keep making smart adds to the roster and pool then I am happy.

[phoenix66]

It is always so much easier to just dump on the fired guy. It makes everything that is left look so much rosier..

 

It couldn't possibly be the goaltenders who screwed up could it? No BH did not strap on the pads  he must be the reason why they failed miserably.

 

BH had no business putting Hamilton with Gio to start the season. He was only touted to be the steal of the decade on D right???

Ortio had a horrible preseason?? What the heck is wrong with 2.5 games, a shutout and a .946??? He wasnt even the lowest.

At the time of Ramos demotion, Hiller had a .867, Ortio a .868....Ramo had a .904 in only 2 starts, oh ya..sending Ramo down was GREAT goalie management! None of them were playing great, but he sends down the best of the 3 at the time... nope, no blame on bob there..

On defense, it wasnt just the loss of Brodie, the entire team was playing badly.Hartley himself said at the end of the season, we lost in the 1st gane and never recovered..isnt it his job to get his team over that?

[CheersMan]

You may not have. But there are plenty of posts that suggest that a coach couldn't be successful given the goaltending and roster so firing him is unfair. But the reality is there are plenty of other ways to measure performance that go beyond the standings.

I do agree that the accountability is now on the GM. But I think people need to be patient. We are still in a rebuild and we could very well be looking at another top 10 pick next season.

But I am not judging success (coaching or GM) based on that. Treliving has added Hamilton, Frolik, and others without giving up much and he has improved our prospect pipeline by adding picks and good prospects like Pollock and Shinkaruk. He has also signed our core players to very reasonable contracts. If he can sign Gaudreau and Monahan to good deals, make a smart coaching hire, and keep making smart adds to the roster and pool then I am happy.

 

On the surface, there was no need to fire BH at this time.  I have liked the majority of BT’s early work and I want him to succeed, but I think he messed up with this firing.  I believe BH was getting the max out of a team, that does not mean there was more to be squeezed out from the roster supplied.  With the recent player subtractions and limited $’s coming available, plus a few remaining non-movable anchor contracts for another year, we appear to be heading into another non-playoff season.  BT is the one that should have had patience not us.  If next season is another failed season (quite likely), then it would have been an easier sell for BT to walk away from BH at the end of next season while buying time to get his roster in order before starting fresh with new coach.  Instead BT has now backed himself into a corner, with no obvious coach in mind, huge holes in the roster, with a promise of better things to come when it seems obvious to most of us that our time will not be next season but maybe the season after.  Somebody is getting set up to fail, and that’s either BT or his new coach, maybe both, maybe BB too.

[MAC331]

On the surface, there was no need to fire BH at this time.  I have liked the majority of BT’s early work and I want him to succeed, but I think he messed up with this firing.  I believe BH was getting the max out of a team, that does not mean there was more to be squeezed out from the roster supplied.  With the recent player subtractions and limited $’s coming available, plus a few remaining non-movable anchor contracts for another year, we appear to be heading into another non-playoff season.  BT is the one that should have had patience not us.  If next season is another failed season (quite likely), then it would have been an easier sell for BT to walk away from BH at the end of next season while buying time to get his roster in order before starting fresh with new coach.  Instead BT has now backed himself into a corner, with no obvious coach in mind, huge holes in the roster, with a promise of better things to come when it seems obvious to most of us that our time will not be next season but maybe the season after.  Somebody is getting set up to fail, and that’s either BT or his new coach, maybe both, maybe BB too.

There is no good way to fire a coach. I don't know what you guys want further in the explanations given. BB & BT want a different style played and they don't think BH can deliver it.

Maybe if we read between the lines the onus is now on BT to retool this roster starting with this offseason. I think he has a lot of moves that will be necessary in order to adopt the style of play they seek. Should this change of direction fail, yes someone always has to answer for it but let's not forget this can also be a very positive scenario.

[kehatch]

There is no good way to fire a coach. I don't know what you guys want further in the explanations given. BB & BT want a different style played and they don't think BH can deliver it.

Maybe if we read between the lines the onus is now on BT to retool this roster starting with this offseason. I think he has a lot of moves that will be necessary in order to adopt the style of play they seek. Should this change of direction fail, yes someone always has to answer for it but let's not forget this can also be a very positive scenario.

Exactly. It doesn't matter how much Hartley was getting out of the roster if he isn't coaching a style of game that the GM and President want.

I don't agree that Hartley was getting the most out of the roster. This roster is not a bottom 6 roster and Hartley failed by many metrics that have been discussed here. I also think he was losing the room as indicated by many rumors and by his shelf life with his other coaching gigs. You can blame the GM for the goalies sure, but those are the same goalies that got us to the second round a season ago. I hated Hartleys rotation and deployment of the goalies and I hated how he used Ortio. This is another situation where people are giving the coach a pass when they shouldn't.

But all of that is moot. If the coach isn't on the same page as the GM then you have a problem and you need a coaching change to fix it.

[MAC331]

Exactly. It doesn't matter how much Hartley was getting out of the roster if he isn't coaching a style of game that the GM and President want.

I don't agree that Hartley was getting the most out of the roster. This roster is not a bottom 6 roster and Hartley failed by many metrics that have been discussed here. I also think he was losing the room as indicated by many rumors and by his shelf life with his other coaching gigs. You can blame the GM for the goalies sure, but those are the same goalies that got us to the second round a season ago. I hated Hartleys rotation and deployment of the goalies and I hated how he used Ortio. This is another situation where people are giving the coach a pass when they shouldn't.

But all of that is moot. If the coach isn't on the same page as the GM then you have a problem and you need a coaching change to fix it.

My knock on BH was always way to much experimenting with lines and pairing with players playing their wrong hand etc.. I think he did incorporate a strong professional work ethic which will bode well going forward, it wasn't all bad.

[kehatch]

My knock on BH was always way to much experimenting with lines and pairing with players playing their wrong hand etc.. I think he did incorporate a strong professional work ethic which will bode well going forward, it wasn't all bad.

I agree with the work ethic. He provided a strong foundation for our culture moving forward. He also got the best out of a lot of individual players. I agree it wasn't all bad. 20 years from now I doubt we look back on Hartley as a terrible coach. I doubt we look back on him as a fantastic one either.

[tmac70]

Hartley's release is justified when you review the PP, PK and GA, the only positive was he played an all offensive style. Now as I am ok with Hartley being released I do have an issue with BB and BT spouting off as there was disconnect with how they wanted the team to play vs Hartley's style. If you want a team to play a certain style than you better have the players in place to do so. This team is not a Black and Blue team but it also is not a dump and chase style club like ANA, SJ or LA.  IMHO they each failed each other.

[MAC331]

Hartley's release is justified when you review the PP, PK and GA, the only positive was he played an all offensive style. Now as I am ok with Hartley being released I do have an issue with BB and BT spouting off as there was disconnect with how they wanted the team to play vs Hartley's style. If you want a team to play a certain style than you better have the players in place to do so. This team is not a Black and Blue team but it also is not a dump and chase style club like ANA, SJ or LA.  IMHO they each failed each other.

Maybe "black and blue" is the wrong label, we need more muscle, players that know how to handle the forecheck and boards. Also defensemen that can take better care of the front of our net. Forwards that can stand their position in front of the oppositions net. Lastly but not the least important players that stand up for each other. We could use some hardnosed players and start to unload some of the soft players.

[phoenix66]

Hartley's release is justified when you review the PP, PK and GA, the only positive was he played an all offensive style. Now as I am ok with Hartley being released I do have an issue with BB and BT spouting off as there was disconnect with how they wanted the team to play vs Hartley's style. If you want a team to play a certain style than you better have the players in place to do so. This team is not a Black and Blue team but it also is not a dump and chase style club like ANA, SJ or LA.  IMHO they each failed each other.

I'm not convinced we don't already have many of the pieces to play that style. Our D is already adept at rushing the puck into the zone, and players who can execute tape to tape passes. Frolik and Hamilton both were brought in with a history of good possession.

We also have hitters and disturber who can play that role better.

Obviously BT needs to provide even more of the pieces,but that's on him,but even if we entered next season with the exact same roster (we won't) there's no reason the transition can't be put in place.

[conundrumed]

Maybe "black and blue" is the wrong label, we need more muscle, players that know how to handle the forecheck and boards. Also defensemen that can take better care of the front of our net. Forwards that can stand their position in front of the oppositions net. Lastly but not the least important players that stand up for each other. We could use some hardnosed players and start to unload some of the soft players.

I agree completely. The hardest thing is to get those gritty players that have enough skill to compete.

I honestly see next to none of that in our ranks. I believe "size" is kind of overrated because there are lots of avg sized guys in the league that play that way. Heck, you could also look at Gallagher and Marchand as undersized and play a hard game.

I see Jooris first coming in with it, and Hathaway too, but we need that in a higher skill level.

One thing I think we really lack is wingers that really go hard to the tough areas and know what to do when they get there.