Goaltending

[s4xon]

If you look at what the Rangers did with Zuccarello they were able to bring him over with permission from his KHL team. But you better believe Avangard Omsk will offer everything and the kitchen sink to keep Ramo around.

 

It's definitely troubling news hearing that Feaster was going for ANOTHER goalie in Bishop. Is that a sign of trouble in the Ramo dealings? Who knows, but it's a topic of conversation thats forsure.

 

I don't understand why you keep singling out Ramo as it's irrelevant to this conversation.  Does this mean Gillies won't sign with the Flames?  Does this mean Brossoit won't play for the team ever?  How about Joni Ortio, Is he never coming over to NA? It's all nonsense.

 

The fact is, is that Kipper is still a question mark, and after tonight's performance hosting the Oilers, you can damn well be sure that the Flames don't have a bonafide starter for the next season, hell even the immediate future.  Mac is great as a backup, but he won't ever be the backbone of the team.

 

This has nothing to do directly with Ramo, this thread is to ask ourselves who the future backbone of the team is, not questioning whether a single goalie will ever hop the pond, or speculating that management has a shaky stance on one netminder.  Especially since he contractually can't sign at this moment.

 

Your impatience is noted, but doesn't contribute to a solution.  Back on topic please.

[kehatch]

If you look at what the Rangers did with Zuccarello they were able to bring him over with permission from his KHL team. But you better believe Avangard Omsk will offer everything and the kitchen sink to keep Ramo around.

 

It's definitely troubling news hearing that Feaster was going for ANOTHER goalie in Bishop. Is that a sign of trouble in the Ramo dealings? Who knows, but it's a topic of conversation thats forsure.

 

Feaster trying to sign Bishop is a sign that Kipper was potentially going to be traded and will potentially retire at the end of the season.  It isn't a sign that Ramo may not sign.  

 

I am not sure why that is troubling.  Prospects are about the percentages.  You are excited about all of them, but realistically only a few work out.  The more you have the more you have working out.  Ramo isn't exactly a prospect, but (like Cervenka was) he might as well be. If Feaster was going into next season with a plan to run Ramo and Bera as our goalies without having a plan B then I would be concerned.  If we end up with 3 high caliber NHL goalies is that really a bad thing?  

 

Ramo may not sign.  But so far all signs were that he wants to be an NHL goalie and he would have been this season if he could have gotten out of his KHL contract.  

 

Even if he does sign I fully expect the Flames to be in on Bernier this summer.  And any other young potential starter that is available.  

[echoison]

Thanks for the update on Berra's contract. So here is where I think we sit at the moment.

 

Kipper - Signed for next season - unknown if will retire or not, likely will

BigMac - UFA at end of season

Ramo - Unsigned at the moment. Reports say is looking forward to coming back to NHL

Berra - Signed an entry level deal for next season

Taylor - RFA next season

Brust - Unsigned

Irving - RFA next season

Gillies - unsigned (in collage)

Brossoit - Signed to entry level (unsure of this or next year)

Ortio - RFA after next season

 

So at this time we 4 goalies signed for next season, one possibly retiring. WE have 2 RFAs for next season and the rights to 3 others. It will be interesting to see what direction they go, weather that is use 2 of what is in the system as tandem or try and pick up a starter and one of the above for backup.

[cannedice99]

Thanks for the update on Berra's contract. So here is where I think we sit at the moment.

 

Kipper - Signed for next season - unknown if will retire or not, likely will

BigMac - UFA at end of season

Ramo - Unsigned at the moment. Reports say is looking forward to coming back to NHL

Berra - Signed an entry level deal for next season

Taylor - RFA next season

Brust - Unsigned

Irving - RFA next season

Gillies - unsigned (in collage)

Brossoit - Signed to entry level (unsure of this or next year)

Ortio - RFA after next season

 

So at this time we 4 goalies signed for next season, one possibly retiring. WE have 2 RFAs for next season and the rights to 3 others. It will be interesting to see what direction they go, weather that is use 2 of what is in the system as tandem or try and pick up a starter and one of the above for backup.

 

Decent summary.  This is what I'd like to see:

 

Kipper - play out last year of contract

MacDonald - trade out

Ramo - sign as backup

Berra - time in Abbotsford

Taylor - starter in Abbotsford

Brust - let go

Irving - (as much as it pains me) let go

Gillies - leave in college

Brossoit - time in Abbotsford

Ortio - leave in Europe

 

Since the season started, we've added 2 tenders, so it makes a bit of a log jam.  Someone could use MacDonald as a servicable backup, and Irving just doesn't look like he has the chops anymore.  Brust was on a 1-year AHL deal anyway.

[robrob74]

Kipper - wants to stay, but may approve a trade in the offseason after his life settles down. I think his life was happening too fast for him at the moment and wanted a stable environment to way his options. He probably isn't ready for retirement if his compete is still in there, but who knows. His mind hasn't been in it all year. I don't blame him if you think your team wants to move you throughout the year, plus having the baby and an apparent rocky birth...

 

MacDonald - should be re-signed. I like his play and has been the back-up we've lacked over the last 5 or 6 years. 

 

Ramo - should be signed and played here with Mac next year alternating starts or play the hot goalie until Ramo takes over.

 

Berra - AHL

 

Taylor - traded for a pick similar to Karlsson. 

 

Brust - let go

 

Irving - traded for a pick

 

Gillies - remain in college

 

Brossoit - Fight with Berra for starters job in the AHL, he needs minutes in pro so alternate him and Berra or we will ruin him as a prospect.

 

Ortio - stay in Europe

[jjgallow]

Wow, we have a lot of goalies.

 

I just don't get what was wrong with beating Vancouver 4-2 with Taylor in net making 29 saves.

 

http://flames.nhl.com/club/recap.htm?id=2012020319

 

People saying he "doesn't look" like an NHL goaltender.  Yet anyone who watched the game would attest that he out-goaltended Luongo hands down.

 

Question:  What should an NHL team do when they don't have confidence in their NHL goaltenders, and they have the best goaltender in the AHL, at 26 years of age?

 

?  

 

Anyone?

 

p.s...Not saying that Taylor will lead us to the cup.  Just saying we have no reason to panic, other than the fact that panicking is the only thing we know how to do when it comes to goaltenders.

[robrob74]

Wow, we have a lot of goalies.

 

I just don't get what was wrong with beating Vancouver 4-2 with Taylor in net making 29 saves.

 

http://flames.nhl.com/club/recap.htm?id=2012020319

 

People saying he "doesn't look" like an NHL goaltender.  Yet anyone who watched the game would attest that he out-goaltended Luongo hands down.

 

Question:  What should an NHL team do when they don't have confidence in their NHL goaltenders, and they have the best goaltender in the AHL, at 26 years of age?

 

?  

 

Anyone?

 

p.s...Not saying that Taylor will lead us to the cup.  Just saying we have no reason to panic, other than the fact that panicking is the only thing we know how to do when it comes to goaltenders.

 

I watched and I was actually scared for most of the night while he was in net. He looked a bit shaky to me. On top of that, his handling the puck and giving it away behind the net was scary too. I think the Flames coaches and management saw it this way too, otherwise he would have stayed up. If he was that good he would be here over MacDonald.

 

MacDonald looks way more stable than Taylor.

 

What should they do? Put him out there as trade-bait and see what other teams would offer. If we get anything for him, it's a bonus as he was a FA. And then you also wonder why no one signed him while he was a FA and playing on an AHL contract if he was regarded as an NHL goalie where there are at least a few teams out there in need of a quality back-up to sure up their goaltending.

[tmac70]

The biggest issue is what the hell is Kipper doing? I believe he may retire. Definelty have to resign Mac though cause whether used as a back up or spilting games with someone other than Kipper, we have lots to chose from you would think one of them pans out, lol

[TrippinVdUb]

I say we resign Jmac and see what we have in Ramo and the swiss dude, Joey has looked pretty stellar at times and could handle split starts with Ramo if he turns out to be an option. Im more then comfortable with how he has played this year since coming in and think that with the way he has handled himself in the midst of all the drama he has earned another contract.

[DirtyDeeds]

Joey Mac is now 1 game over .500 for this year.

 

[robrob74]

I say we resign Jmac and see what we have in Ramo and the swiss dude, Joey has looked pretty stellar at times and could handle split starts with Ramo if he turns out to be an option. Im more then comfortable with how he has played this year since coming in and think that with the way he has handled himself in the midst of all the drama he has earned another contract.

 

Joey just doesn't panic. He's solid. You can see it in his game. All of the other goalies this year in certain times during a game (pressure situations) seem to panic. It's the fact he's a vet. Kipper is good too, only he's just not in it this year... But Joey Mac has to be re-signed.

[Wreckening]

I agree Joey MacDonald has to be re-signed.  I like what I have seen with him and in my opinion has looked much better than Kipper.  Its been so long since we've had a capable back up.  My only fear is that now we have this capable back up we are going to have a glut of starting goalies.  I'm not convinced Ramo can come in and take the starters role.

[cross16]

The Flames plan for next season has to start with Kipper, and I don't mean keeping him. I think it's pretty clear that Kipper is not in this team's plans but what I mean is retirment an option or is it a trade? Either way you have to deal with that first before you move on becuae if Kipper does not want to retire and there isn't a trade option then you need him here and Joey Mac probably can't re sign Joey Mac.

 

I think what is ideal is Kipper either retires or is traded and you re sign Joey Mac and bring him, Bera, and Ramo all in for an open competition in training camp. I'm not too concerned about that becuae both Bera and Ramo have an option to go back to pro hockey in Europe should it not work out here and that still gives the option for Brossoit and or Ortio to play in the A. So overal i dont think the glut of goalies is unmanagable.

[jjgallow]

I watched and I was actually scared for most of the night while he was in net. He looked a bit shaky to me. On top of that, his handling the puck and giving it away behind the net was scary too. I think the Flames coaches and management saw it this way too, otherwise he would have stayed up. If he was that good he would be here over MacDonald.

 

MacDonald looks way more stable than Taylor.

 

What should they do? Put him out there as trade-bait and see what other teams would offer. If we get anything for him, it's a bonus as he was a FA. And then you also wonder why no one signed him while he was a FA and playing on an AHL contract if he was regarded as an NHL goalie where there are at least a few teams out there in need of a quality back-up to sure up their goaltending.

 

If we don't play Taylor, we will clearly get nothing for him, so he has little or no trade value at this point.

 

Trade value and actual value are not always the same, however.

 

Had the Flames actually played him these last 10 games, then one of two thing would happen:

 

1.  They'd pick first overall

 

2.   He would play well, and would have considerable trade value

 

Currently, we are not positioned to get the first overall pick, and Taylor has zero trade value.

 

As for going behind your net, that is a Very typical error made by NHL rookie goaltenders, and it is directly related to adjusting their calculation of the speed and time involved in players coming towards them.  It resolves itself in a very short number of games.  So does being "shaky".

 

We wouldn't know, because we rarely if ever give them that opportunity to begin with.  We don't even know what to look for anymore.

[Velks]

What I got from the interview with Mac last night after the Oilers Spoiler was that he would very much like to stay on.

Given all the uncertainty of Kipper, I do think that all the speculation with our plethora of goalies is still way wide open.

 

I'm not about to talk about hard facts as I just dont know enough about the other goalies. But keeping within the confines of what is going on now, I would say that Mac HAS to stay.

 

There has been some suggestions that we just start the season with 2 brand new goalies but I think that that would be a huge mistake. Its only prudent to do a mentor/rookie role and to be really honest...what is the rush? We are already in a rebuild and I would say that we are not looking at a playoff berth next season (as wrong as I'd LOVE to be) so take the time to get it right and not knee jerk with the prospects. We have a pool of goalies so there is going to be trial and error.

 

Another point that we all tend to look over at this moment is that the season is done for the flames. There is a HUGE difference in playing for contention as opposed to being the spoiler.

 

For arguments sake lets say we got a prospect goalie in for a game now (a la Hanowski style)...and he blows us all away. Thats great but in a full season there are so many factors which will weigh heavily; most of which is the mental attitude of a mid-season grind. We need that veteran calming influence in the dressing room that Mac would provide to a rookie. The same is true for the D and forwards. They all look great as of now and I see a great future for all of them but I personally only have true confidence in Reinhart, Brodie and Backs for next year.

 

The only reason I don't factor in Kipper is that there is so much uncertainty.

 

Not to mention the size of the Western conference players wearing down a rookie goalie (or two) with all the net crashing in a full season. Not and easy job at all for even the likes of Kipper/Mac.

 

In short...take your time Mr. Feaster, the fans called for a rebuild and we got it so we expect down time in the coming seasons. Build it right. We are off to a good start so far.

P.S.

Anyone noticed Mac's been working on his rebound control? looks much better with no zone clearing kickouts!!!...although SOME of them were pretty entertaining to see

[cross16]

P.S.

Anyone noticed Mac's been working on his rebound control? looks much better with no zone clearing kickouts!!!...although SOME of them were pretty entertaining to see

 

No, i think its the same as it was he is still really having problems with it. The difference is his defence is in a much better position to get those rebounds where before no one was there. he kicked out 5 or 6 horrible rebounds last night but reacted well on two of them and made the reflex save and the rest were cleared by the team in front of them. Flames have cleared up, to some degree, their play in their own zone and that's been the difference not his actual rebound control it's still not great.

[Velks]

No, i think its the same as it was he is still really having problems with it. The difference is his defence is in a much better position to get those rebounds where before no one was there. he kicked out 5 or 6 horrible rebounds last night but reacted well on two of them and made the reflex save and the rest were cleared by the team in front of them. Flames have cleared up, to some degree, their play in their own zone and that's been the difference not his actual rebound control it's still not great.

yup point taken I'll concede that then...amazing how much a better D can make a difference...sigh needed that 20 games ago...ah well

[robrob74]

If we don't play Taylor, we will clearly get nothing for him, so he has little or no trade value at this point.

 

Trade value and actual value are not always the same, however.

 

Had the Flames actually played him these last 10 games, then one of two thing would happen:

 

1.  They'd pick first overall

 

2.   He would play well, and would have considerable trade value

 

Currently, we are not positioned to get the first overall pick, and Taylor has zero trade value.

 

As for going behind your net, that is a Very typical error made by NHL rookie goaltenders, and it is directly related to adjusting their calculation of the speed and time involved in players coming towards them.  It resolves itself in a very short number of games.  So does being "shaky".

 

We wouldn't know, because we rarely if ever give them that opportunity to begin with.  We don't even know what to look for anymore.

 

I think shaky is a bad thing and you can just tell. He's not that young either. If management and the coaches wanted him here, he would be here. If they felt he was the future, he'd be here. If other teams wanted him they would have signed him. Do you not think there are scouts watching the AHL, or other AHL team's coaches talking to GM's saying this guy is good? He's not in the NHL for a reason. Good luck Danny.

[Carty]

Reto Berra has been signed to a contract...   http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=666334&navid=DL|CGY|home

 

Perhaps  "Cheaper by the Dozen" is the new mantra for Feaster regarding goaltenders ...

[jjgallow]

Reto Berra has been signed to a contract...   http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=666334&navid=DL|CGY|home

 

Perhaps  "Cheaper by the Dozen" is the new mantra for Feaster regarding goaltenders ...

 

lol....OMG.

 

They could have signed Benjamin Conz...not only a 100x better prospect, but already a 10x better player.  Should have just not asked for anything back.

 

http://eurohockey.com/stats/league/2013/124-nationalliga-a-nla-.html?season=2013&type=1&position=1&nationality=0

 

The guy has a 3.01 GAA in the Swiss league, at the age of 26, and we sign him?   Politics, politics.

 

Meanwhile, a 21-year old with a 2.24 GAA in the same league who is often compared to JS Giguere, remains undrafted and unsigned.  Awesome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Conz

[cross16]

lol....OMG.

 

They could have signed Benjamin Conz...not only a 100x better prospect, but already a 10x better player.  Should have just not asked for anything back.

 

http://eurohockey.com/stats/league/2013/124-nationalliga-a-nla-.html?season=2013&type=1&position=1&nationality=0

 

The guy has a 3.01 GAA in the Swiss league, at the age of 26, and we sign him?   Politics, politics.

 

Meanwhile, a 21-year old with a 2.24 GAA in the same league who is often compared to JS Giguere, remains undrafted and unsigned.  Awesome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Conz

 

I don't know much about Berra so this isn't in resonse to him but Conz is not an NHL goaltender I would be very upset if the Flames signed him. I remember watching him in the World juniors and thinking overrated. Yes he faced alot of shots but the quality of his saves was average and his athletic ability is average as well. Good media story but not a good prospect and there is a very good reason he got passed over in TWO entry drafts and still remainds unsigned depsite being named top goaltender. He would have had to improve leaps and bounds from where he was then for me to want to sign him.

 

And being compared once by Pierre Mcquire and Gord Miller does not constitute "often" being compared to Jiggy.

[jjgallow]

I don't know much about Berra so this isn't in resonse to him but Conz is not an NHL goaltender I would be very upset if the Flames signed him. I remember watching him in the World juniors and thinking overrated. Yes he faced alot of shots but the quality of his saves was average and his athletic ability is average as well. Good media story but not a good prospect and there is a very good reason he got passed over in TWO entry drafts and still remainds unsigned depsite being named top goaltender. He would have had to improve leaps and bounds from where he was then for me to want to sign him.

 

And being compared once by Pierre Mcquire and Gord Miller does not constitute "often" being compared to Jiggy.

 

I agree with all of that.

 

Berra's worse.

[cross16]

Have you seen him play or is that simply based on stats? 

 

I don't think it's fair to write someone off soley based on stats when goaltenidng stats are incrdibly misleading to begin with.

[ScottMacMahon]

I agree with all of that.

 

Berra's worse.

Have you seen him play or is that simply based on stats? 

 

I don't think it's fair to write someone off soley based on stats when goaltenidng stats are incrdibly misleading to begin with.

 

Exactly. I don't think our scouts would have screwed up that bad... Feaster said that half of them liked Berra and the other half liked Ramo. Also, in another thread a person who follows the team that Berra plays for commented saying we are getting a really good goalie in him, and that his stats are misleading as he has been the best player on the team by far and the ONLY reason that the team was ever able to make the playoffs.

 

Don't be so quick to shi*t on a guy just from his stats, especially a goaltender. Example? Reinhart. He was a MINUS 26 with the heat this season, yet he has not looked out of place here and I have actually really liked what he has done, and he isn't even a goalie

[geos]

The guy has a 3.01 GAA in the Swiss league, at the age of 26, and we sign him?   Politics, politics.

 

I do worry that Feaster is more interested in making his trades look good than doing what's best for the team. I'll be pretty surprised if Berra turns out to even be a backup.

 

But hey, isn't he touted as another "best player outside the NHL?" 

 

I don't know much about Berra so this isn't in resonse to him but Conz is not an NHL goaltender I would be very upset if the Flames signed him. I remember watching him in the World juniors and thinking overrated. Yes he faced alot of shots but the quality of his saves was average and his athletic ability is average as well. Good media story but not a good prospect and there is a very good reason he got passed over in TWO entry drafts and still remainds unsigned depsite being named top goaltender. He would have had to improve leaps and bounds from where he was then for me to want to sign him.

 

And being compared once by Pierre Mcquire and Gord Miller does not constitute "often" being compared to Jiggy.

 

Trust me on this, I'm a big fan of Swiss hockey and follow it closely. Conz is a better goalie than Berra, and I think Conz is a marginal NHL backup at best. Berra isn't even close to the best Swiss league goalie (he had a pretty good season last year, but less so this year), let alone a best outside of the NHL type prospect.

 

Ramo is a better prospect and I think Ramo's value is near a conditional 7th rounder at best.