Goaltending

[jjgallow]

Most fans on this board like to claim that Calgary supports a re-build, and they may very well be correct from the perspective that the average Calgarian believes it is needed and the right thing to do. However Calgary certainly have demonstrated time and time again that they will not support it with their dollars.

 

Exactly.  +1.

 

This is precisely why ownership avoided a rebuild for so long.  Because they know from history that the fans won't support it financially.

 

Personally, I don't believe rebuilds are the best answer.  If you have a strong organization, you should be able to sustain.  Many clubs, such as Detroit, New Jersey, etc...have avoided numerous rebuild cycles simply by drafting well, developing well, trading well, and have great coaches, etc.

 

But the ship's sailed.  There is no way out of the mess we're in now without a rebuild.  Ownership has no real choice in the matter.  In the Long, Long term....we still need improvement at the organizational level to avoid future rebuild cycles.   Acquiring Brian Burke, admittedly, was a good step in that direction.  Wouldn't have been my first choice but at least Ownership recognizes the need for organizational improvement.

 

Crude prices are up, Natural Gas prices are stabilizing...worst case scenario Ownership just takes a tax writeoff on the Flames for a couple seasons.  It's actually not that bad, just hard for guys to swallow who pride themselves in consistent profits.

 

To me, our top 3 goaltending prospects are Ortio, Gilles, and Broissoit, in that order.  As impressive as Ortio was, I don't see him saving the day here for at least another two years.  Even if he cracks the lineup next year, it'll take him a season in the NHL to get up to speed.  Minimum.  Gilles will take even longer due to US College, etc.   Broissoit is currently, by far, the weakest, and youngest, of the three.

 

I do believe that goaltenders and the rebuild are two closely related topics....to be honest.  Based on our goaltending prospect pool, it looks like a two-year rebuild.  The rest of our prospect pool also supports this.   And....awkward as this is...we've got a similar rebuild problem as Edmonton:  We're weak on defence, and they take the longest to develop.  I expect we'll stock up heavilly in the next two drafts on defencemen...(even though I don't agree with that methodology).   But becuase of this, it may very well be one of our young goaltending prospects that single-handedly drag us Out of rebuild status in a couple years.  As things stand now, they won't have a lot of help on the blue line.  So they had better be good, lol!

[cross16]

Most fans on this board like to claim that Calgary supports a re-build, and they may very well be correct from the perspective that the average Calgarian believes it is needed and the right thing to do. However Calgary certainly have demonstrated time and time again that they will not support it with their dollars.

Is that really a fair comment considering its only been the one rebuild that wasn't supported and during that time the oil industry was in a recession and there was no salary cap. To me there are very few similarities between what the flames did in the late 90s and what they are doing right now.

[Louis23]

Ramo

 

lol? what happened?

[cross16]

Ramo

 

lol? what happened?

To be fair, it's the first preseason game.... I think it's more than fair to give players a pass on one or te games.

Attended the game in calgary and Macdonald actually played very well and looked ready, Ortio was pretty so/so in my mind.

[jjgallow]

JMac looked really good, agreed.   I also agree that  Ortio was so-so, and that's about where his development is for an NHL game, so that's expected.  He played like most AHL goaltenders would play in that game.

 

From the day we acquired his rights, I've never understood the excitement about Ramo, nor have I heard any good reason why we would expect him to do well here.   I am compelled to be honest and say that he played almost exactly like his previous track record would suggest he'd play.   For sure, he should get a few more chances, and I do think he'll improve somewhat as he adjusts.  But the reality of the situation is that he has  a lot of work to do before proving that he can be an AHL goaltender.

 

I wonder how the preseason is going over in Europe?

 

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?leagueid=ET&season=2013#goaltending

[Louis23]

JMac looked really good, agreed.   I also agree that  Ortio was so-so, and that's about where his development is for an NHL game, so that's expected.  He played like most AHL goaltenders would play in that game.

 

From the day we acquired his rights, I've never understood the excitement about Ramo, nor have I heard any good reason why we would expect him to do well here.   I am compelled to be honest and say that he played almost exactly like his previous track record would suggest he'd play.   For sure, he should get a few more chances, and I do think he'll improve somewhat as he adjusts.  But the reality of the situation is that he has  a lot of work to do before proving that he can be an AHL goaltender.

 

I wonder how the preseason is going over in Europe?

 

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?leagueid=ET&season=2013#goaltending

jhahahaha Irving and Taylor on top of that list

[s4xon]

List updated on first post.

[phoenix66]

Ramo

 

lol? what happened?

I do think we need to also temper our expectations. There are many who will not be happy unless we get the 2nd coming of kipper. The bar was set extremely high with him stealing games we had no righr winning but he also covered up a lot of our shortcomings...good teams win cips with very average goaltending (chicago twice, pittsburgh, detroit, etc) if any of these guys who becomes #1 gives us at least nhl qualuty starts..with a sv% at or over .900 then we have our guy. Mike Vernon used to be counted on for at least one bone head goal per game.

We need to develop the rest of the team to limut the actual chances those teams get

[geos]

jhahahaha Irving and Taylor on top of that list

 

That's been my point all along. There is a reason why Ramo and Berra didn't play in the NHL. There is a massive cliff between Europe and here. 

 

Berra might have a shot as an undiscovered talent. Ramo tried the NHL and was awful, and now is on an even worse team (on paper). There is always a longshot chance of picking up a Faskth (spelling?) type, but it's rare. 

 

Little risk with either acquisition, but don't be shocked if MacD is by far our best goalie and Ramo sails into the sunset yet again (albeit with a ridiculous chunk of cash).

[Louis23]

That's been my point all along. There is a reason why Ramo and Berra didn't play in the NHL. There is a massive cliff between Europe and here. 

 

Berra might have a shot as an undiscovered talent. Ramo tried the NHL and was awful, and now is on an even worse team (on paper). There is always a longshot chance of picking up a Faskth (spelling?) type, but it's rare. 

 

Little risk with either acquisition, but don't be shocked if MacD is by far our best goalie and Ramo sails into the sunset yet again (albeit with a ridiculous chunk of cash).

Although this isn't KHL. KHL level is higher. I'll wait and see on Ramo, I guess.

[geos]

Although this isn't KHL. KHL level is higher. I'll wait and see on Ramo, I guess.

 

Berra has shown me, in one game (World Champs) that he could steal a game from the world's best. Doesn't mean much, but he's been good in his limited sample against NHL level talent. Ramo has proven he cannot play in the NHL once... yes, he was decent in the KHL (but not really the best). Could he turn it around? Of course he could. But don't count on it.

 

Either way, we gave up next to nothing for them so who cares. Our future goalies are Brossoit and Gillies. Not anyone in the net this season. Ramo + Berra + MacD are just a long shot at a patchwork, short term solution. 

[PokernHockey]

Is that really a fair comment considering its only been the one rebuild that wasn't supported and during that time the oil industry was in a recession and there was no salary cap. To me there are very few similarities between what the flames did in the late 90s and what they are doing right now.

 

Fair enough on the economic thing, however Gas was near a all time high near the end of that rebuild and fans didn't start showing up until long after kipper jumped on the scene. What is the excuse for the last few seasons? Calgary has by all rights had one of the strongest economy's in the world since 2008. Those games that half the stands were empty in the past few years were still near sell outs because of pre-purchased tickets. If people were not going to games that were already paid for, what do you think their incentive is to pay for those same tickets?

 

I grew up as a flames fan through the 90's playoff hiatus, so to be fair, I was not around people who would actually be buying the tickets in any significant quantity. I spent a significant portion of my money on Flames swag/tickets, but to be fair, short of car insurance, my movie theater wage was 100% disposable income. However, I distinctly remember as late as January 2004 being told off, etc. whenever I wore my flames jersey to high school. I purchased tickets and sometimes had trouble giving them away to my friends! And these were kids at the age when theoretically most people are most passionate about professional sports teams then they will be as adults!

 

In my experience, it was not that people could not afford to go to games, it was that they couldn't be bothered. Although being an adult the economic situation is quite different for me and my friends then it was back then, the lethargy that grew over the last season from coworkers, friends, etc. is quite similar to my experience back then without the vitriol for things that are not to your liking that comes with high school. To be fair, some of that is likely to blame on the lockout however the lockout does not explain why it continued to grow as the season went on.  Whatever precipitated it, the problem (fans not going to games) remains.

 

I hope I am wrong, but at the end of the day, I still feel like that is a pretty significant, and valid, reason for ownerships trepidation towards entering a re-build until last year.

[jjgallow]

Is that really a fair comment considering its only been the one rebuild that wasn't supported and during that time the oil industry was in a recession and there was no salary cap. To me there are very few similarities between what the flames did in the late 90s and what they are doing right now.

 

I would agree with this, but at the end of the day, ticket sales will hurt due to the on-ice product.   Not nearly as bad as the 90's. as you point out.

 

Both involved something to do with the arena.  Rebuilds almost always seem to, I'm not sure why.  In the 90's, they were lobbying to upgrade it.  Now, they're lobbying for a new one.

 

Other than that, very different.  In the 90's, we dismantled a contender one star at a time, usually over contract negotiations.  We cost-cut our way into a rebuild.

 

This time, our only barrier is the salary cap itself.    But we failed to draft and develop quality players for...well, a 10 year period or more.   For a while, we were able to sign on free agents and keep the team going (a la J Bo, etc), as well as sacrifice our future to add pieces (a la Jokinen, etc etc).  But the decline was inevitable with failed drafting and development.   Once it set in, we were no longer able to sign free agents or bring top talent to the team. 

 

Our current rebuild was not a management decision.  It was a result of poor management decisions of the past, imho.

 

A decline in revenue Could be a good thing.  It could re-enforce the financial importance of having a winning team in this City.   I would not want to see the exact same revenue stream with the worst team in the NHL.  It would remove all financial motivation to strive for better.

[jjgallow]

Berra has shown me, in one game (World Champs) that he could steal a game from the world's best. Doesn't mean much, but he's been good in his limited sample against NHL level talent. Ramo has proven he cannot play in the NHL once... yes, he was decent in the KHL (but not really the best). Could he turn it around? Of course he could. But don't count on it.

 

Either way, we gave up next to nothing for them so who cares. Our future goalies are Brossoit and Gillies. Not anyone in the net this season. Ramo + Berra + MacD are just a long shot at a patchwork, short term solution. 

 

So far, the only goalie that has consistently impressed is JMac.   And, adjusting for age, Ortio.  Not a chance Ramo or Berra could have played as well as Ortio has at the age of 22.

 

For me, I am not that concerned with who of Berra or Ramo wins the backup role.  Neither has looked like an NHL goaltender yet.   But Berra is the closest so far.   The question is, what do you do with whoever doesn't make the cut?   Would Berra or Ramo go to the AHL?  I'm not postiive that either would.   Especially Ramo.    

 

And, will their willingness to go to the AHL factor into the decision?  The "obvious" answer is no, but it's a tricky situation when you've paid up front for all your unproven tending, in picks and salary.

[senor_incendiarse]

Fair enough on the economic thing, however Gas was near a all time high near the end of that rebuild and fans didn't start showing up until long after kipper jumped on the scene. What is the excuse for the last few seasons? Calgary has by all rights had one of the strongest economy's in the world since 2008. Those games that half the stands were empty in the past few years were still near sell outs because of pre-purchased tickets. If people were not going to games that were already paid for, what do you think their incentive is to pay for those same tickets?

 

I grew up as a flames fan through the 90's playoff hiatus, so to be fair, I was not around people who would actually be buying the tickets in any significant quantity. I spent a significant portion of my money on Flames swag/tickets, but to be fair, short of car insurance, my movie theater wage was 100% disposable income. However, I distinctly remember as late as January 2004 being told off, etc. whenever I wore my flames jersey to high school. I purchased tickets and sometimes had trouble giving them away to my friends! And these were kids at the age when theoretically most people are most passionate about professional sports teams then they will be as adults!

 

In my experience, it was not that people could not afford to go to games, it was that they couldn't be bothered. Although being an adult the economic situation is quite different for me and my friends then it was back then, the lethargy that grew over the last season from coworkers, friends, etc. is quite similar to my experience back then without the vitriol for things that are not to your liking that comes with high school. To be fair, some of that is likely to blame on the lockout however the lockout does not explain why it continued to grow as the season went on.  Whatever precipitated it, the problem (fans not going to games) remains.

 

I hope I am wrong, but at the end of the day, I still feel like that is a pretty significant, and valid, reason for ownerships trepidation towards entering a re-build until last year.

 

There is no doubts the attitude around the city towards the team is similar to what it was from '97-'03, Calgary is a bandwagon city and it can't be denied, but we are that way because we have a great number of transplants, a lot of these people came with allegiances to teams they grew up cheering for, but would jump on the Flames bandwagon at the high times and ditch later.  Where the situation is a lot better now is that, in the past they had to fight to get season ticket holders, not a problem these days, and corporate sponsorship is a lot better now as the team did a good job at getting long term deals when the on-ice product was better (god forbid KK get any credit).

 

The Flames aren't in the same position as the Oilers who were able to sell the fans on hype.  They had a #1 pick, we didn't, they had a World Junior hero, we don't.  I think if we had the similar spot the Oilers had where we had individuals to hype there would be more buzz around the city, but I don't want that.  The team needs to take their bumps, stockpile assets, and properly allow the youth to develop.  Great individuals can put bums in seats, but great teams keep em there.

[geos]

So far, the only goalie that has consistently impressed is JMac.   And, adjusting for age, Ortio.  Not a chance Ramo or Berra could have played as well as Ortio has at the age of 22.

 

For me, I am not that concerned with who of Berra or Ramo wins the backup role.  Neither has looked like an NHL goaltender yet.   But Berra is the closest so far.   The question is, what do you do with whoever doesn't make the cut?   Would Berra or Ramo go to the AHL?  I'm not postiive that either would.   Especially Ramo.    

 

And, will their willingness to go to the AHL factor into the decision?  The "obvious" answer is no, but it's a tricky situation when you've paid up front for all your unproven tending, in picks and salary.

 

I doubt ownership is going to plunk their $2.7M prize Ramo in the AHL. The guy getting paid will play. Ramo will start. 

[cross16]

Fair enough on the economic thing, however Gas was near a all time high near the end of that rebuild and fans didn't start showing up until long after kipper jumped on the scene. What is the excuse for the last few seasons? Calgary has by all rights had one of the strongest economy's in the world since 2008. Those games that half the stands were empty in the past few years were still near sell outs because of pre-purchased tickets. If people were not going to games that were already paid for, what do you think their incentive is to pay for those same tickets?

 

I grew up as a flames fan through the 90's playoff hiatus, so to be fair, I was not around people who would actually be buying the tickets in any significant quantity. I spent a significant portion of my money on Flames swag/tickets, but to be fair, short of car insurance, my movie theater wage was 100% disposable income. However, I distinctly remember as late as January 2004 being told off, etc. whenever I wore my flames jersey to high school. I purchased tickets and sometimes had trouble giving them away to my friends! And these were kids at the age when theoretically most people are most passionate about professional sports teams then they will be as adults!

 

In my experience, it was not that people could not afford to go to games, it was that they couldn't be bothered. Although being an adult the economic situation is quite different for me and my friends then it was back then, the lethargy that grew over the last season from coworkers, friends, etc. is quite similar to my experience back then without the vitriol for things that are not to your liking that comes with high school. To be fair, some of that is likely to blame on the lockout however the lockout does not explain why it continued to grow as the season went on.  Whatever precipitated it, the problem (fans not going to games) remains.

 

I hope I am wrong, but at the end of the day, I still feel like that is a pretty significant, and valid, reason for ownerships trepidation towards entering a re-build until last year.

I think te differences for me is one the disposable income in calgary has remained quite high as the job market and salaries are good and not just from a personal standpoint but from a corporate one too. Many corporation just couldn't afford to partner with the flames then. You also had the issue of the dollar and the instability of operating a Canadian club. I think a large reason fas lost interest in most Canadian markets in the late 90s is they for tired of seeing all of their stars shipped out because they couldn't afford them. Creates a lot of resentment and lack of interest when you feel you are just a feeder system and not capably of keeping your stars or surrounding them with anything good. Flames bucked the trend of keeping Jaromw but it hurt then in not being able to support him and now with the salary cap you don't have that issue. Lastly the flames have solid ownership now and no threat to move, in fact a brand has been recreated that wasn't there at that time.

I won't dispute that interest has dropped but personally I haven't seen it drop near the levels of the 90s. I still think there is a very healthy amount of interest and intrigue in the flames and they ave a few seasons to try and work off of that but not much more that I will agree with.

[travel_dude]

I doubt ownership is going to plunk their $2.7M prize Ramo in the AHL. The guy getting paid will play. Ramo will start. 

Have to agree with that statement.  I'm not convinced JoMac is guaranteed to be the backup, nor play more than 20 games.  He was, IMHO, a stopgap signing in case Ramo didn't come over.  You will probably see Berra play more games than JoMac.

[kehatch]

I doubt ownership is going to plunk their $2.7M prize Ramo in the AHL. The guy getting paid will play. Ramo will start. 

 

I think ownership has shown time and time again that salary doesn't dictate play.  That said I agree that Ramo will play.  The Flames think he is a starter and will give him the starts to prove that one way or the other.  

[DirtyDeeds]

Up until last nights games Ortio and Berra seemed to be showing the most promise. Seems last nights results just muddied the question about who will start and who will backup.

 

I expect lots of rotation and maybe even keeping 3 goalies kicking around and into the season until one takes a step ahead of the rest.

[Carty]

Up until last nights games Ortio and Berra seemed to be showing the most promise. Seems last nights results just muddied the question about who will start and who will backup.

 

I expect lots of rotation and maybe even keeping 3 goalies kicking around and into the season until one takes a step ahead of the rest.

 

[travel_dude]

Up until last nights games Ortio and Berra seemed to be showing the most promise. Seems last nights results just muddied the question about who will start and who will backup.

 

I expect lots of rotation and maybe even keeping 3 goalies kicking around and into the season until one takes a step ahead of the rest.

Yeah, I think I floated that idea in another thread.  I truly think it makes more sense to have Joey as an insurance policy than the bonafide starter.  I doubt he will play lights-out this year, so I don't hold out much hope as him being the future of the Flames until Gillies/Ortio/Broissoit take the reins (assuming that one of them does).

[Redslinger]

MacDonald is the most experienced of the bunch and has proven that he can play in the league as a backup at least.  That leaves the competition between Kerri Berra and Reto Ramo, or whatever.  I believe Feaster mentioned that he'll only be carrying two goalies on the Flames this season and he's already assigned Ortio and Broissoit to Abbottsford.  So, what will he do with the loser of the Berra/Ramo competition?  Make room in the AHL by sending one of the others to the ECHL?  Loan a goalie to another AHL team?  Send the loser of the Berra/Ramo competition back to Europe?  I suppose he could always waive or try to trade one of the goalies, but if so, does he trade the guy with the least upside (MacDonald) but leave the Flames with less experience between the pipes?  Or does he go more short-term and try to move one of the goalies that are younger and have more starting potential.

 

A few tough decisions to be made.  This could get messy.  Of course, I think that the real long term answer to the goalcrease is Gillies.  but he's at least two years away yet. 

[jjgallow]

I just hope he keeps Reto and Ramo away from the Heat.   Give Ortio a chance to develop as a starter down there.

 

He might not start out as the AHL's best goaltender, but he'll improve if he's given the opportunity to.   I believe it's a coin toss between Ortio and Gillies as our real future.   A lot of that will be decided by how much the two of them develop this year and next.

 

I don't think they could afford to send Ramo back to Europe.   Even if he does the worst of the three (arguably he has).

 

I suppose they could trade one of them, but they would have to have trade value.  That means, they'd likely have to trade whoever was dominant (likely JMac).

 

Will be really interestingj to see how 3 becomes 2.

[DirtyDeeds]

Feaster mentioned yesterday that Ortio and Brossoit were told to go to the Heat and compete for a spot. Apparently they have some games this weekend to play. Healso said the Flames do not intend to carry 3 goalies into the season. That  should mean 1 of the 3 remaining up here will be sent down to the Heat but he did not come right out and say that. (1+1 usually equals 2)