Goaltending

[Redslinger]

^ Yeah, there seems to be some similarities between Berra and Karlsson.  However, I think Berra is much more mobile than Karlsson.  Once Karlson was done he wasn't getting back up.  The biggest issue I saw from Berra (mind you, this is based solely on the last game alone) is that he doesn't play the angles well and tends to cheat one way.  Those are both fixable problems as opposed to Karlsson's lack of mobility.

[Wreckening]

I said it before and I'll say it again Berra should go to the Heat. If he can refine his game he potentially has a good career ahead of him. Ramo in my opinion has been the best of the three. I like his attitude and work ethic and seems to know what is expected of him. He deserves to be the starter.

[Flyerfan52]

Haha, just checking. 

 

But in reality, hoping any player has a bad year, other than Kessel, or all the Canucks, isn't nice.

Or all Pens except Crosby so he can be the face of TC while the others take care of business.

[s4xon]

Or all Pens except Crosby so he can be the face of TC while the others take care of business.

 

[PokernHockey]

I think te differences for me is one the disposable income in calgary has remained quite high as the job market and salaries are good and not just from a personal standpoint but from a corporate one too. Many corporation just couldn't afford to partner with the flames then. You also had the issue of the dollar and the instability of operating a Canadian club. I think a large reason fas lost interest in most Canadian markets in the late 90s is they for tired of seeing all of their stars shipped out because they couldn't afford them. Creates a lot of resentment and lack of interest when you feel you are just a feeder system and not capably of keeping your stars or surrounding them with anything good. Flames bucked the trend of keeping Jaromw but it hurt then in not being able to support him and now with the salary cap you don't have that issue. Lastly the flames have solid ownership now and no threat to move, in fact a brand has been recreated that wasn't there at that time.

I won't dispute that interest has dropped but personally I haven't seen it drop near the levels of the 90s. I still think there is a very healthy amount of interest and intrigue in the flames and they ave a few seasons to try and work off of that but not much more that I will agree with.

 

Just to follow up on this. I got offered season tickets in (i believe) the fourth round of offers at the end of August.  I just purchased a condo, so I decided to forgo the tickets. I got an email today, once again offering me season tickets. And I can get tickets in the red, white, orange, or green section, not all of which are even in my wait list level. which means that they went through all hot house members and they were unable to sell all of the season tickets for the upcoming year, so they are trying again. I don't recall what number I was prior to last year, but I know I didn't get the offer to buy tickets once, let alone twice.

 

I was #416 on the wait list in January.

 

6 months into the rebuild and season ticket holders are already dropping like flies, and that is, as you pointed out, without any of the outside factors of the 90's.

[tmac70]

The excitement was drained after the final cuts. When you look at the current roster, beside goal and Monahan, where do you generate excitement. We have seen everyone play, except for the two mentioned. This roster is all bottom end 2nd liners and 3rd liners, with a mystery prize in net.

When you see a huge shift in younger newer players entering the roster, you will start to feel the excitement again. Training camp this year created more excitement than ever, till the pendulum shift, it will have a costly effect in ticket sales.

Just to follow up on this. I got offered season tickets in (i believe) the fourth round of offers at the end of August.  I just purchased a condo, so I decided to forgo the tickets. I got an email today, once again offering me season tickets. And I can get tickets in the red, white, orange, or green section, not all of which are even in my wait list level. which means that they went through all hot house members and they were unable to sell all of the season tickets for the upcoming year, so they are trying again. I don't recall what number I was prior to last year, but I know I didn't get the offer to buy tickets once, let alone twice.

 

I was #416 on the wait list in January.

 

6 months into the rebuild and season ticket holders are already dropping like flies, and that is, as you pointed out, without any of the outside factors of the 90's.

[cross16]

Just to follow up on this. I got offered season tickets in (i believe) the fourth round of offers at the end of August.  I just purchased a condo, so I decided to forgo the tickets. I got an email today, once again offering me season tickets. And I can get tickets in the red, white, orange, or green section, not all of which are even in my wait list level. which means that they went through all hot house members and they were unable to sell all of the season tickets for the upcoming year, so they are trying again. I don't recall what number I was prior to last year, but I know I didn't get the offer to buy tickets once, let alone twice.

 

I was #416 on the wait list in January.

 

6 months into the rebuild and season ticket holders are already dropping like flies, and that is, as you pointed out, without any of the outside factors of the 90's.

Again I don't doubt a drop in interest i just don't agree you are looking at a massive drop to the point revenue will suffer unless this last several years. I they've got another 2 seasons until results need to improve and then at that point I'd be worried but I still don't think it would come close to the 90s level. Not to mention a drop that size represents about 5% of their season ticket base so Hardly dropping like flies....

[senor_incendiarse]

The excitement was drained after the final cuts. When you look at the current roster, beside goal and Monahan, where do you generate excitement. We have seen everyone play, except for the two mentioned. This roster is all bottom end 2nd liners and 3rd liners, with a mystery prize in net.

When you see a huge shift in younger newer players entering the roster, you will start to feel the excitement again. Training camp this year created more excitement than ever, till the pendulum shift, it will have a costly effect in ticket sales.

The last round of cuts was Knight, Reinhart, Ferland and Kanzig.  They are at best what you say the others are, no future superstars there and hardly guys that anyone is overly excited about.  I'm not disappointed in either, Kanzig is only 18 he needs more time, Knight is straight outta college and he could use some seasoning, Ferland improved drastically in the prospect camp and tourney but was injured in main camp so had nothing to show, and Reinhart also missed too much of camp to really show he deserved to stick.  Did you honestly expect them to make it over Stempniak, Stajan, Glencross, Hudler, Cammy?  

[Carty]

Again I don't doubt a drop in interest i just don't agree you are looking at a massive drop to the point revenue will suffer unless this last several years. I they've got another 2 seasons until results need to improve and then at that point I'd be worried but I still don't think it would come close to the 90s level. Not to mention a drop that size represents about 5% of their season ticket base so Hardly dropping like flies....

 

I agree...   At this point I see it as more of an opportunity for fans that have been patiently waiting to finally get seasons tickets...   Maybe the Dome will lose some of the so called fans that spend half the game either yapping on their cellphones or texting, and instead replace them with hockey fans that care more about what is happening on the ice and make a little more noise to breathe some life back into the building...

[phoenix66]

On the topic of Berra..has anybody else noticed he has the Abbotsford Heat emblazoned on his mask almost since the beginning? Seems kind of odd for a guy whos trying to stay with the big club..unless people have told him from the beginning hes likely to go down to get lots of playing time in to learn the nhl style...

[Wreckening]

I agree... At this point I see it as more of an opportunity for fans that have been patiently waiting to finally get seasons tickets... Maybe the Dome will lose some of the so called fans that spend half the game either yapping on their cellphones or texting, and instead replace them with hockey fans that care more about what is happening on the ice and make a little more noise to breathe some life back into the building...

Agreed. As with the on ice product the need to get new blood into the stands is apparent as well. I remember when the Dome used to rock and was one of the loudest buildings in the NHL. Time for Mr King to weave some of his marketing magic.

[jjgallow]

Agreed. As with the on ice product the need to get new blood into the stands is apparent as well. I remember when the Dome used to rock and was one of the loudest buildings in the NHL. Time for Mr King to weave some of his marketing magic.

 

Oh no.......   is there going to be a "Flames Change" TV series?    

 

Or another run of "young guns"?    

 

You're probably right lol...I'm just hoping they do this rebuild right and we end up filling those seats because of pure awesomeness on the ice.   I've been waiting since the early 90's and I can wait a little longer.

[Wreckening]

On the topic of Berra..has anybody else noticed he has the Abbotsford Heat emblazoned on his mask almost since the beginning? Seems kind of odd for a guy whos trying to stay with the big club..unless people have told him from the beginning hes likely to go down to get lots of playing time in to learn the nhl style...

I think this is the case. Ramo is going to get his shot at being the number 1 and Mac is going to be the backup. Berra needs the time to develop his game and get accustomed to the NHL game. If you see either Ramo or Mac struggle then Berra will be given a chance but I suspect Ramo to be afforded every chance to be the one who carries this team.

[geos]

6 months into the rebuild and season ticket holders are already dropping like flies, and that is, as you pointed out, without any of the outside factors of the 90's.

 

I dropped my season tix because of how poorly we were treated during the lockout. That's why many are probably cancelling. I'm just as interested in the team, just less interested in supporting the commercial aspect.

[travel_dude]

On the actual topic of goaltending....

 

http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=685163

 

Brossoit is indeed a victim of the Flames' depth in nets.

Hope the added playing time helps his development.

[Redslinger]

If Brossoit can't be the starter in Abbottsford, being the starter in Alaska is the next best thing for him.

[jjgallow]

I dropped my season tix because of how poorly we were treated during the lockout. That's why many are probably cancelling. I'm just as interested in the team, just less interested in supporting the commercial aspect.

 

Well put.   

 

 

On the actual topic of goaltending....

 

http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=685163

 

Brossoit is indeed a victim of the Flames' depth in nets.

Hope the added playing time helps his development.

 

It was the right move, and I commend the Flames for it.   Brossoit needs the minutes, and now he'll get them.   To be honest,  I don't think he was quite ready for the AHL, but I was impressed with his play nonetheless.   The extra development time gives him the best chance of coming back next year better than ever, and forcing the Flames to make even tougher decisions.   As Gillies, Ortio, and Brossoit mature, the net could potentially be even more crowded over the next two years.  I hope it is.

 

 

On Ramo:

 

He didn't look or play or perform like an NHL goaltender, imho.   I know there's a lot of love for the guy on here, so I'm sure there will be lots of "he had no chance", etc.    That will buy him a few more games.   I guess we'll see.

[travel_dude]

On Ramo:

 

He didn't look or play or perform like an NHL goaltender, imho.   I know there's a lot of love for the guy on here, so I'm sure there will be lots of "he had no chance", etc.    That will buy him a few more games.   I guess we'll see.

 

His first game against some elite-level forwards, facing 39 shots, and you say he is not an NHL goaltender?  Seriously?

His side-to-side movement needs some work, but he had some decent saves.  Shoot out (skills competition) was a bit sad, but no different result than Kipper in recent years.  Why not give the guy 20 games and see how his stats look, and then call for Ortio to come save the team. 

 

I'm less concerned with having an elite level goalie during year 1 of a rebuild; I would rather see the team build up a strong goaltending duo for when we will be a contender again.  Ramo could have 2 or 10 years of success in the NHL; let's not bail after one game.

[Prids]

On Ramo:

 

He didn't look or play or perform like an NHL goaltender, imho.   I know there's a lot of love for the guy on here, so I'm sure there will be lots of "he had no chance", etc.    That will buy him a few more games.   I guess we'll see.

What an ugly comment.

 

What are your reasons for him not looking like an NHL goaltender? Please expand because I have heard no real augment coming from you, just your opinion on how you don't like him.

[Wreckening]

I wasn't impressed with Ramo's lateral movement.  He was scrambling at times and got out of position.  All in all though it was a good effort.  Can't fault him for 2 of the goals as 1 was a nasty deflection off Hudler and the other was a vicious one timer from arguably the best player in the game.  I agree with those saying he needs some games under his belt to get a real idea where we're at with our goaltending. 

[Prids]

I wasn't impressed with Ramo's lateral movement.  He was scrambling at times and got out of position.  All in all though it was a good effort.  Can't fault him for 2 of the goals as 1 was a nasty deflection off Hudler and the other was a vicious one timer from arguably the best player in the game.  I agree with those saying he needs some games under his belt to get a real idea where we're at with our goaltending. 

 

Everyone is commenting on this lateral movement and although it wasn't the best (he was scrambling at times) that should improve with more starts. He's still adjusting to NA ice compared to the larger ice surface from Europe.

I agree, we need to give him a number of games before casting real judgment.

[jjgallow]

What an ugly comment.

 

What are your reasons for him not looking like an NHL goaltender? Please expand because I have heard no real augment coming from you, just your opinion on how you don't like him.

 

 

I don't think that's a fair comment.  You will notice that the early criticisms of Ramo are similar in many ways to how we treated Danny Taylor.   We were unhappy with his lateral movement.  After his first NHL game, we wrote him off for it.

 

Both played against elite NHLers.

 

The only difference I see is that Danny Taylor actually has a winning NHL record (the only goalie we have from last year that can say this), and our best save percentage from last year.

 

I was heavily criticized on here for wanting to give Taylor, who is the same age as Ramo, a chance.  As a 26 year old backup.

 

I was told that his lateral movement meant he could never make it in the NHL, even as a backup.  Even though he won games and stopped most shots, in the NHL.

 

Now Ramo's 27, doing worse than Taylor when he was 26, and we're likely going to lose a large stretch of games because we don't want to give up on him as our bonafide, unproven starter, because we wish him to be that.

 

I'm not trying to be ugly here.  I think that we Should give him a chance.  I think it's the right thing to do, on principal and in practice.   

 

What bothers me is that we're not going to do it for principal, or for what's best for the team.

 

We're going to give him a chance because Feaster's reputation is invested in him, and because he signed him to a big fat contract.

 

Had we given some of our other goaltenders a better chance (I'm Not just talking about Danny Taylor), I don't think we would be in the position we are in now.

 

I fully agree with everyone who doesn't want to give up on Ramo.  But if it was based on merit, there have been a lot of other goalies in this organization that we should have extended that chance to first.

 

Going forward, I think this should apply to our other goaltenders as well.  I'm not sure how it'll happen, but I really hope that, assuming Ortio plays well in the AHL, they give him starter minutes.   And I wish the same for Berra as well.   I really hope the Flames figure a way to properly develop their vast goaltender collection. 

 

I hope it applies to Joey MacDonald as well.

 

Quite frankly, he's the best goaltender in our whole system right now.  On merit, he's our starter.

 

I think he'll rise to the top by the end of the season, but if we were to be fair and honest, he would have played our first game, and we would have worked Ramo into at least 10 backup games before making a decision. 

 

It'll all come out of the wash.  I'm actually less concerned with how Ramo and Jmac are being managed, and more concerned about how our future goaltenders are being managed.

[kehatch]

Last time I checked Danny Taylor isn't playing in the NHL or in North America.  It wasn't just the Flames that didn't want him.  I will never understand how you can get attached to underdogs like Taylor and Irving yet be so irrationally against players like Ramo.  

 

Actually I know the answer.  A large part of my job is working with performance related data.  I also have some formal education in statistics and metrics.  You misuse data in incredibly misleading ways.  Like trying to use a 2-game sample size to tout Taylor.  Or making incredible inferences about Ortio's, Berra's, and Ramo's performances based on unsupported analysis.

 

Unless you are a professional scout that evaluates goalies and you have a lot of game evidence than you don't know anything more than the rest of us.  Which was that Ramo performed okay in his second NHL debut.  Anyone without that training and evidence that is taking anything more then a wait and see approach to the Calgary goal tending situation doesn't have a leg to stand on. 

 

Personally I am pessimistic that Ramo, Berra, or MacDonald turns into an NHL starter.  For the simple fact that more goalies fail the transition than succeed.  But I acknowledge that the odds aren't that stacked against them and given the opportunity any of them (Ramo and Berra in particular) could end up as starting goalies in the NHL.  

 

I also acknowledge that it would have been completely irresponsible for the Flames to rely on a player like Taylor.  The Flames are doing the right thing.  They are rolling the dice on a couple of imports and hoping they come up 7s. They aren't rushing prospects.  They aren't spending big assets to acquire goalies in trades.  They aren't relying on aging goalies with no future.  And they aren't putting the franchise on the shoulders of AHL players like Taylor that can't even get an invite to an NHL training camp. 

 

My advise is to relax, watch the games, and stop trying to act like you know better than every other NHL team based on the odd numbers you put together in a spreadsheet.  Try cheering for the players and stop looking for told you so images so you can plaster them on the forum the first chance one of our players looks like they might falter.  

 

You don't have any idea how good Ramo will or won't be.  So why not just cheer for him to be good?

[jjgallow]

kehatch:

 

with all due respect, those are very outdated statistical concepts you're using.   I also earn a living working with performance related data.

 

Maybe more of an offline conversation.

 

But by your logic, the only thing we learned from our two more recent floods:   2005 and 2013, is that they were freak events that will likely not happen again for another 150 years.

 

I do want Ramo to be good.   But I want all our goaltenders to be good.  

 

Remember when you said that the best goaltender will get the playing time, "simple"?

 

That's Jmac right now and we all know it.

[kehatch]

kehatch:

 

with all due respect, those are very outdated statistical concepts you're using.   I also earn a living working with performance related data.

 

Maybe more of an offline conversation.

 

But by your logic, the only thing we learned from our two more recent floods:   2005 and 2013, is that they were freak events that will likely not happen again for another 150 years.

 

I do want Ramo to be good.   But I want all our goaltenders to be good.  

 

Remember when you said that the best goaltender will get the playing time, "simple"?

 

That's Jmac right now and we all know it.

 

I won't even get into the irrelevant comparison of natural disasters versus goal tending performances in two NHL games (of which only one was good).  But as for the bold, no we don't.