2024 NHL draft - A New Hope

[bosn111]

Different question about trading Weegar to Ottawa… if this happens before TDL, does this improve Ottawa enough that they climb the standings and drop out of a top 10 pick? What about Andersson in Buffalo or Arizona?

 

Are these more trades for just before the draft? If so, this likely keeps the Flames close to playoff position so not top 10 draft pick.

 

If you move Weegar, Hanifin, Andersson and Tanev, Kylington becomes your “Vet” with only a year and a half of experience. Who is your example for the young guys coming up? Stone as a coach is good, but he is not in the game.

 

I don’t see the need to burn down the team all at once in order to improve. I don’t have a full answer, but other than Backlund, Andersson, Mangiapane and Hanifin, no one else has played more than 4 seasons for the Flames. The rest of the team has changed over the past 4 seasons which is basically scorched earth. How many coaches in that time frame? First year GM? Not sure how much more change is really going to be needed to be considered a full rebuild?

 

 I do think the team needs to make some moves, if only for asset management purposes, but I don’t think Weegar or Andersson should be considered unless massive overpay is offered.

 

Just a couple of thoughts.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, bosn111 said:

I don’t see the need to burn down the team all at once in order to improve.

 

Our last rebuild, I wish we also dumped Giordano.  He was going Norris-level right when the Flames needed to tank for Ekblad, McDavid, Eichel, Matthews, etc.  just brutal timing.  When we finally came out of the rebuild, Giordano was on his final years with us.

 

This time around, just burn it right down.

 

At the end of the day, we want our next core to all peak around the same time.  Need like 4 to 8 core kids all 22-25 years old together.  Surround them with vets when it's time to push for the Cup.

[sak22]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Our last rebuild, I wish we also dumped Giordano.  He was going Norris-level right when the Flames needed to tank for Ekblad, McDavid, Eichel, Matthews, etc.  just brutal timing.  When we finally came out of the rebuild, Giordano was on his final years with us.

 

This time around, just burn it right down.

 

At the end of the day, we want our next core to all peak around the same time.  Need like 4 to 8 core kids all 22-25 years old together.  Surround them with vets when it's time to push for the Cup.

1 of those things is not like the others and it was the closest the team could've achieved.  Ekblad is not a franchise player and wouldn't have altered the franchise at all.   I think accrediting the teams success in 14 and 15 to Giordano alone is a stretch.  For 1 he missed significant time in both seasons and the team in 2015 didn't fall off the cliff when he went down, you can just as much give credit to Gaudreau, Monahan, Backlund and Brodie who were the young core for avoiding a chance of McDavid, Eichel or Matthews.

[Thebrewcrew]

For me, the earliest I think the Flames should take Iginla is 11th.

 

I would take the following players before Iginla

Celebrini, Demidov, Eiserman, Catton, Helenius, Lindstrom, Silayev, Levshunov, Dickinson, Parekh

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

1 of those things is not like the others and it was the closest the team could've achieved.  Ekblad is not a franchise player and wouldn't have altered the franchise at all.   I think accrediting the teams success in 14 and 15 to Giordano alone is a stretch.  For 1 he missed significant time in both seasons and the team in 2015 didn't fall off the cliff when he went down, you can just as much give credit to Gaudreau, Monahan, Backlund and Brodie who were the young core for avoiding a chance of McDavid, Eichel or Matthews.

 

Ekblad is/was a franchise player but obviously as you've said, Injuries derailed him.  He could've been much more had the Flames drafted him.

 

But hindsight is not the point I was trying to make.  I was looking forward.  By the time the Flames come out of this coming rebuild, Weegar is how old?  Andersson might be 31/32 and have a couple prime years left.  Much better to trade them both right now.  And potentially better to tank harder for a higher pick the next few years.

[The_People1]

26 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

For me, the earliest I think the Flames should take Iginla is 11th.

 

I would take the following players before Iginla

Celebrini, Demidov, Eiserman, Catton, Helenius, Lindstrom, Silayev, Levshunov, Dickinson, Parekh

 

Yes I think that's fair.  I think there's a good chance the Flames finish with the 10/11/12th pick.  Right on that edge.

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ekblad is/was a franchise player but obviously as you've said, Injuries derailed him.  He could've been much more had the Flames drafted him.

 

But hindsight is not the point I was trying to make.  I was looking forward.  By the time the Flames come out of this coming rebuild, Weegar is how old?  Andersson might be 31/32 and have a couple prime years left.  Much better to trade them both right now.  And potentially better to tank harder for a higher pick the next few years.

 

There are good years to make team defining trades.

I don't think this is the year.

We have to trade the UFA's and Markstrom at some point.

But so many teams that would pay for a Weegar or Ras don't have 1sts.

Ras for Chychrun?  Okay, that's different.

Should ge a bit more for a RHS, but far as is I guess.

 

It's hard to predict when we come out of a rebuild because we haven't started one.

I think Weegar is good for at least 4 more years.

Him and Ras have about the same number of years in the league.

Hanifin has more.

If you want to trade Ras, do it his UFA year or next season.

Weegar seems to give a Satoshi Nakamoto more than a lot of guys we have.

He has the attitude you want to pass on to the kids.

 

[Thebrewcrew]

21 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yes I think that's fair.  I think there's a good chance the Flames finish with the 10/11/12th pick.  Right on that edge.

One thing with Tij, he’s listed as a C, but he’s a winger. Kelowna played yesterday, he took exactly zero faceoffs.

 

I think the Flames will put a premium on the centre ice position early in the draft.

 

Im not sure they’ll be able to land one though. Lindstrom has been hurt, but based off projection alone, he could go very early. Catton is the most likely. Even then I’m not sure. 

[robrob74]

Right now we are drafting 9th overall... 

[sak22]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ekblad is/was a franchise player but obviously as you've said, Injuries derailed him.  He could've been much more had the Flames drafted him.

 

But hindsight is not the point I was trying to make.  I was looking forward.  By the time the Flames come out of this coming rebuild, Weegar is how old?  Andersson might be 31/32 and have a couple prime years left.  Much better to trade them both right now.  And potentially better to tank harder for a higher pick the next few years.

I never said injuries derailed him, I think he was overrated due to the otherwise lack of depth at D that year.  Not even a top 5 player from that draft class IMHO, had a nice year the same year Huberdeau and the rest of the team put up numbers.

 

I think you still need vets even when you are young, so what's the route you want to take.  Keep a guy like Weegar who you know what he brings to the table and was a guy many labeled as a potential captain, at a contract that as the cap goes up won't be a big burden, or would you rather wait 3-4 years and try and find another Weegar type and pay someone in the 28-30 yr age range 8-9 million a season for long term when you are also dealing with rookies coming off ELC's.   I don't think 1 player is preventing bottoming out, Tampa had a hall of famer and still fell apart.  Dorion and Benning are gone, I don't believe you are getting a top 10 pick for either him or Andersson.  Best way to save the disappointment is to not believe it is possible in the first place.

[The_People1]

10 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I never said injuries derailed him, I think he was overrated due to the otherwise lack of depth at D that year.  Not even a top 5 player from that draft class IMHO, had a nice year the same year Huberdeau and the rest of the team put up numbers.

 

I think you still need vets even when you are young, so what's the route you want to take.  Keep a guy like Weegar who you know what he brings to the table and was a guy many labeled as a potential captain, at a contract that as the cap goes up won't be a big burden, or would you rather wait 3-4 years and try and find another Weegar type and pay someone in the 28-30 yr age range 8-9 million a season for long term when you are also dealing with rookies coming off ELC's.   I don't think 1 player is preventing bottoming out, Tampa had a hall of famer and still fell apart.  Dorion and Benning are gone, I don't believe you are getting a top 10 pick for either him or Andersson.  Best way to save the disappointment is to not believe it is possible in the first place.

 

In regards to Ekblad, I re-read what you wrote and thought you meant Ekblad was injured but you were talking about Giordano.  But we will have to agree to disagree here because Ekblad did in fact suffer many injuries early in his career including concussions.  It derailed what was otherwise a promising start to his career.  He had potential to become a franchise D but it was never realized.

 

Anyways, don't want to get stuck on Ekblad because my point was one player can prevent a bottom.  If even by helping the team with 5-10 points in the standings.  That's all it takes.

 

If Weegar and Andersson can return top 10 picks then the Flames should definitely consider it because there are exciting D in this draft.

 

Don't sign a vet for $8-9 mil.  Sign some to one or two years for $4-5-mil.  Keep the roster flexible.  Again, these trade suggestions are coming from rumors ARZ would trade a 1st round pick for Andersson.

 

Then why not also take a look at OTT and BUF who likely wants a RHS RD today as opposed to drafting and waiting 4 years.

[travel_dude]

17 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

Right now we are drafting 9th overall... 

Earlier we were 11th, but I think we are actually 10th.

PITTS has a better points % but is a point behind us.

9th has a better shot at 1st overall.

But we are only a losing streak away from being passed by BUFF and MTL.

If only ARI could win a game and OTT didn't sucj so much.

5th is about the best we can hope for an inevitably gets push down by the 6th place team.

[sak22]

8 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

In regards to Ekblad, I re-read what you wrote and thought you meant Ekblad was injured but you were talking about Giordano.  But we will have to agree to disagree here because Ekblad did in fact suffer many injuries early in his career including concussions.  It derailed what was otherwise a promising start to his career.  He had potential to become a franchise D but it was never realized.

 

Anyways, don't want to get stuck on Ekblad because my point was one player can prevent a bottom.  If even by helping the team with 5-10 points in the standings.  That's all it takes.

 

If Weegar and Andersson can return top 10 picks then the Flames should definitely consider it because there are exciting D in this draft.

 

Don't sign a vet for $8-9 mil.  Sign some to one or two years for $4-5-mil.  Keep the roster flexible.  Again, these trade suggestions are coming from rumors ARZ would trade a 1st round pick for Andersson.

 

Then why not also take a look at OTT and BUF who likely wants a RHS RD today as opposed to drafting and waiting 4 years.

I don't necessarily believe that they will be looking to part with picks vs areas where they might have a surplus.  Its a tough division and this year has shown they are still off.  I don't think either team can look at their current situation and say they are fine up front but just need a RHD and they are rolling, they've both been at it a long time and are now getting passed by Detroit and Montreal, the mix in those teams is just not right.  They may need a RHD but I think they will look to move out something up front that might not be working maybe in Buffalo's situation Middlestadt could leave after next year, or maybe they look at Krebs.  Same with Ottawa, maybe they look to move Chychrun, but either way the only pick I see them potentially moving is Boston's.  I'm not banking on acquiring other top 10 picks.

[bosn111]

If we look at the hypothetical situation that the Flames ownership would allow the team to go full scorched earth for the rest of the season, and Conroy was ok in allowing losing to be ok, who become the supporting veteran cast to help bring the young guys along?

 

Assuming scorched earth means Markstrom, Tanev, Hanifin, Andersson, Weegar, Kadri, Coleman, and even Mangiapane all get traded, who is left that is a Vet? Huberdeau and Backlund only. So what targets get signed who would be your leadership/insulators? 
 

Calgary, being a Canadian team already has difficulty drawing big names due to tax implications. Who will sign if the team is not competitive? On D, you won’t be getting a Montour or a Pesce, likely not even a Dumba or a Roy.

 

You may get a Scandella or Johnson (35+) range looking for a retirement contract, but what is the point then? I don’t know if they are even the good role model types or not.

 

Right now, I am more open to trading Andersson than I ever have been, but it needs to be a knock your socks off deal. Weegar is not someone I would move unless he requested a trade. He brings effort, leadership, quality play and is on a good contract, that only looks better as the cap, and subsequently salaries, go up over the next 8 years. I would keep him as your positive anchor piece on D. Coleman I would keep as the positive anchor piece for the forwards. Backlund is possibly retiring after this contract in 3 years anyways, Coleman has 4 more years until his 35+ contract.

 

Neither Weegar, nor Coleman will block young guys, but they both insulate them with quality play until they are ready. So why move them if you need someone just like them anyway?

[The_People1]

9 hours ago, sak22 said:

I don't necessarily believe that they will be looking to part with picks vs areas where they might have a surplus.  Its a tough division and this year has shown they are still off.  I don't think either team can look at their current situation and say they are fine up front but just need a RHD and they are rolling, they've both been at it a long time and are now getting passed by Detroit and Montreal, the mix in those teams is just not right.  They may need a RHD but I think they will look to move out something up front that might not be working maybe in Buffalo's situation Middlestadt could leave after next year, or maybe they look at Krebs.  Same with Ottawa, maybe they look to move Chychrun, but either way the only pick I see them potentially moving is Boston's.  I'm not banking on acquiring other top 10 picks.

 

You kind of said it yourself, the mix isn't right.  Namely, they don't have RHS RD to make D pairings.  Remember when the Flames had Regehr, Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, and Giordano?  Big names.  It didn't work.  No one wanted to play the right side.  BUF and OTT are in similar situations.

 

Furthermore, RHS RD is more rare in the NHL than LD.  Of course it would be a dream to trade excess LD for RD and don't skip a beat.  What team has excess RD to trade OTT for Chychrun?  None.  Who would give a RD for Mittlestad?  They certainly wouldn't get quality D like Weegar (NHL leading goals scorer for D) and Andersson (26 and the perfect complementary top pair hybrid type).  Both have term left which is incentive to trade a top 10 pick for.  They are not rentals.

 

Sure BUF and OTT can keep their picks and wait 4 years... How many years have they been out of the playoffs?  They want to win now.  Getting a top pair RD in their prime is serious business and a move in the right direction for both teams.

[cross16]

31 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

You kind of said it yourself, the mix isn't right.  Namely, they don't have RHS RD to make D pairings.  Remember when the Flames had Regehr, Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, and Giordano?  Big names.  It didn't work.  No one wanted to play the right side.  BUF and OTT are in similar situations.

 

Furthermore, RHS RD is more rare in the NHL than LD.  Of course it would be a dream to trade excess LD for RD and don't skip a beat.  What team has excess RD to trade OTT for Chychrun?  None.  Who would give a RD for Mittlestad?  They certainly wouldn't get quality D like Weegar (NHL leading goals scorer for D) and Andersson (26 and the perfect complementary top pair hybrid type).  Both have term left which is incentive to trade a top 10 pick for.  They are not rentals.

 

Sure BUF and OTT can keep their picks and wait 4 years... How many years have they been out of the playoffs?  They want to win now.  Getting a top pair RD in their prime is serious business and a move in the right direction for both teams.

 

 

Probably a good time to point out that Weegar has a full NTC

[The_People1]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

 

 

Probably a good time to point out that Weegar has a full NTC

 

Already acknowledged earlier.  Born and raised in OTT.  He's probably not going anywhere else but OTT.

[cross16]

3 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Already acknowledged earlier.  Born and raised in OTT.  He's probably not going anywhere else but OTT.

 

Which is exactly why they are not going to give you a top 10 pick

 

They don't need to

 

[The_People1]

51 minutes ago, bosn111 said:

If we look at the hypothetical situation that the Flames ownership would allow the team to go full scorched earth for the rest of the season, and Conroy was ok in allowing losing to be ok, who become the supporting veteran cast to help bring the young guys along?

 

Assuming scorched earth means Markstrom, Tanev, Hanifin, Andersson, Weegar, Kadri, Coleman, and even Mangiapane all get traded, who is left that is a Vet? Huberdeau and Backlund only. So what targets get signed who would be your leadership/insulators? 
 

Calgary, being a Canadian team already has difficulty drawing big names due to tax implications. Who will sign if the team is not competitive? On D, you won’t be getting a Montour or a Pesce, likely not even a Dumba or a Roy.

 

You may get a Scandella or Johnson (35+) range looking for a retirement contract, but what is the point then? I don’t know if they are even the good role model types or not.

 

Right now, I am more open to trading Andersson than I ever have been, but it needs to be a knock your socks off deal. Weegar is not someone I would move unless he requested a trade. He brings effort, leadership, quality play and is on a good contract, that only looks better as the cap, and subsequently salaries, go up over the next 8 years. I would keep him as your positive anchor piece on D. Coleman I would keep as the positive anchor piece for the forwards. Backlund is possibly retiring after this contract in 3 years anyways, Coleman has 4 more years until his 35+ contract.

 

Neither Weegar, nor Coleman will block young guys, but they both insulate them with quality play until they are ready. So why move them if you need someone just like them anyway?

 

Maybe we can sign Corey Perry to be the father figure for our young players...

 

But yes, these are fair points.  I do believe in vets sheltering kids.  Only thing is, if we can trade Weegar for a top 10 pick then that changes things.  Top 10 pick is more valuable than having Weegar as a vet.  Take the pick and then sign another vet this summer.  Bottom pair D is good enough as a vet.

 

In regards to the top 10 picks, I'm looking at D.  Is Dickinson the next Sanderson?  Or Joulevi?  Is there a Makar or Heiskanen in this draft?  There are possibly prospects that would make it worth moving both Andersson and Weegar.

[The_People1]

4 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Which is exactly why they are not going to give you a top 10 pick

 

They don't need to

 

 

Huh?  Except Weegar is signed until the end of his career with the Flames.  If OTT doesn't offer a top 10 pick then they can keep looking for their elusive RD.  Draft a RD and wait 4 years.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, bosn111 said:

If we look at the hypothetical situation that the Flames ownership would allow the team to go full scorched earth for the rest of the season, and Conroy was ok in allowing losing to be ok, who become the supporting veteran cast to help bring the young guys along?

 

Assuming scorched earth means Markstrom, Tanev, Hanifin, Andersson, Weegar, Kadri, Coleman, and even Mangiapane all get traded, who is left that is a Vet? Huberdeau and Backlund only. So what targets get signed who would be your leadership/insulators? 
 

Calgary, being a Canadian team already has difficulty drawing big names due to tax implications. Who will sign if the team is not competitive? On D, you won’t be getting a Montour or a Pesce, likely not even a Dumba or a Roy.

 

You may get a Scandella or Johnson (35+) range looking for a retirement contract, but what is the point then? I don’t know if they are even the good role model types or not.

 

Right now, I am more open to trading Andersson than I ever have been, but it needs to be a knock your socks off deal. Weegar is not someone I would move unless he requested a trade. He brings effort, leadership, quality play and is on a good contract, that only looks better as the cap, and subsequently salaries, go up over the next 8 years. I would keep him as your positive anchor piece on D. Coleman I would keep as the positive anchor piece for the forwards. Backlund is possibly retiring after this contract in 3 years anyways, Coleman has 4 more years until his 35+ contract.

 

Neither Weegar, nor Coleman will block young guys, but they both insulate them with quality play until they are ready. So why move them if you need someone just like them anyway?

 

Coleman if you're not trading him. He has a mentorship vibe.

[cross16]

45 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Huh?  Except Weegar is signed until the end of his career with the Flames.  If OTT doesn't offer a top 10 pick then they can keep looking for their elusive RD.  Draft a RD and wait 4 years.

 

So Ottawa is going to bid only against themselves and still give up a top 10 pick? Not going to happen IMO. I sure as heck woudln't do that if I were them. 

 

I don't think Ottawa is a RS dman away from making this all work nor are they in a situation where if they don't win nest year or the year after things will crumble. So why are they going to massively overpay for someone? I love Weegar but I think giving up a top 10 pick for a soon to be 30 year old man with a big contract is not good management. Can look for RS dman elsewhere. 

 

Also worth pointing out that the Sens have to forfeit one of the 1st round picks of the next 3 drafts. 

[bosn111]

Yep, Weegar and Coleman are the 2 I see as mentors who will support the young guys without getting upset if someone passes them on the depth chart. Both have decent contracts (Weegar may be a tick high at the end but that depends on salary and cap inflation over the next 8 years). Backlund for a few more years as a good soldier and leadership place holder until the young guys can step in.

[travel_dude]

14 minutes ago, bosn111 said:

Yep, Weegar and Coleman are the 2 I see as mentors who will support the young guys without getting upset if someone passes them on the depth chart. Both have decent contracts (Weegar may be a tick high at the end but that depends on salary and cap inflation over the next 8 years). Backlund for a few more years as a good soldier and leadership place holder until the young guys can step in.

 

Do we have that leadership group to replace them?  Kadri, Coleman and Weegar are the ones that come to mind for me.  What is odd is that Backlund seemed to be poised to leave because we were not doing anything to upgrade the team.  Now we are going into a re-tool.  How long does Backlund want to stick around now that Lindholm and possibly Tanev, Markstrom and Hanifin are on the way out?

 

Kadri is bringing along Zary and Pospisil.

Weegar is solidifying our D to help take pressure off G.

Coleman is the heart and soul of th team's post country club culture.

Huberdeau is bringing along Pelletier, so far in limited ice.

 

A re-tool that starts and (mostly) ends with Lindholm, Hanifin, Tanev, Markstrom and Zadorov is not bad.  As long as you can turn this into enough assets to be better next year, that is fine.  I would also consider Mangiapane because he is only effective on one line.  We should be able to "train" players on Backlund's line.  And Mange is a bit undersized to get the greasy goals.

[The_People1]

32 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

So Ottawa is going to bid only against themselves and still give up a top 10 pick? Not going to happen IMO. I sure as heck woudln't do that if I were them. 

 

I don't think Ottawa is a RS dman away from making this all work nor are they in a situation where if they don't win nest year or the year after things will crumble. So why are they going to massively overpay for someone? I love Weegar but I think giving up a top 10 pick for a soon to be 30 year old man with a big contract is not good management. Can look for RS dman elsewhere. 

 

Also worth pointing out that the Sens have to forfeit one of the 1st round picks of the next 3 drafts. 

 

Not so much "bid against themselves" but RD are extra expensive... Have to over pay as a starting point for any team.  You want a top pair RD, it's starting at top 10 pick.  Not just for Weegar but for any top pair RD.  What teams have excess RD to trade?  Like none.

 

But of course you are right that full NTC is complicated.  Weegar may not waive.  I only bring up OTT because of his family ties.  He's not going to waive for just any team.