2024 NHL draft - A New Hope

[jjgallow]

12 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

A re-tool that starts and (mostly) ends with Lindholm, Hanifin, Tanev, Markstrom and Zadorov is not bad.  As long as you can turn this into enough assets to be better next year, that is fine. 

 

if quite frankly if we're worse for the next 3 years but we win a cup in 6 years.

 

also fine.

[travel_dude]

14 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

if quite frankly if we're worse for the next 3 years but we win a cup in 6 years.

 

also fine.

 

When I say better, I don't mean just for one season.  A re-tool that works would show improvement year over year.  Worse for 3 years implies that we got it wrong.  There might be a slight regression, but frankly we are doing that this year possibly to the point of top 5 in the draft.  A bad season followed by 3 worse season implies a decade of darkness.

[cross16]

55 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Not so much "bid against themselves" but RD are extra expensive... Have to over pay as a starting point for any team.  You want a top pair RD, it's starting at top 10 pick.  Not just for Weegar but for any top pair RD.  What teams have excess RD to trade?  Like none.

 

But of course you are right that full NTC is complicated.  Weegar may not waive.  I only bring up OTT because of his family ties.  He's not going to waive for just any team.

 

I actually think Weegar would waive to go to Ottawa, there were rumors of him wanting that prior to Florida dealing him. I just don't think he'd waive anywhere else so it becomes a scenario where Ottawa gets to name their price and not the Flames which limits the return. That' the best against yourself part. If no other team can acquire Weegar the Flames don't really get to name their price. I don't think NHL GMs place the value on RS dmen that you do. 

 

All for nothing though because I think the Flames have zero plans to trade Weegar. 

[The_People1]

34 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I actually think Weegar would waive to go to Ottawa, there were rumors of him wanting that prior to Florida dealing him. I just don't think he'd waive anywhere else so it becomes a scenario where Ottawa gets to name their price and not the Flames which limits the return. That' the best against yourself part. If no other team can acquire Weegar the Flames don't really get to name their price. I don't think NHL GMs place the value on RS dmen that you do. 

 

All for nothing though because I think the Flames have zero plans to trade Weegar. 

 

Zero plans to trade Weegar and zero plans to scorch earth rebuild.  I know I know.  I'm just, making a suggestion to lock up another top 10 pick.  I think a top pair RD signed long term at a fair cap hit is worth a top 10 pick. 

 

Although I have to concede if OTT is offering their top 10 pick, at least one other team may be willing to trade their top RD to OTT.

[cross16]

8 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Zero plans to trade Weegar and zero plans to scorch earth rebuild.  I know I know.  I'm just, making a suggestion to lock up another top 10 pick.  I think a top pair RD signed long term at a fair cap hit is worth a top 10 pick. 

 

Although I have to concede if OTT is offering their top 10 pick, at least one other team may be willing to trade their top RD to OTT.

 

You'd be better off using Andersson I think. 

 

Skeptical you could do it but I think if your going that route you need a bidding war, that's my point. Andersson would give you that and Weegar won't. 

[travel_dude]

10 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

You'd be better off using Andersson I think. 

 

Skeptical you could do it but I think if your going that route you need a bidding war, that's my point. Andersson would give you that and Weegar won't. 

 

Not to mention the lack of trade protection.

For the last 3 seasons, he is consistently 50 points (will hit it this year too).

The age alone nets you a better return, I think.

Is he is in the same value as Chychrun?

Maybe not, but he has played full seasons and is only a couple years older.

And his salary situation is slightly more attractive than Chychrun's.

[The_People1]

34 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

You'd be better off using Andersson I think. 

 

Skeptical you could do it but I think if your going that route you need a bidding war, that's my point. Andersson would give you that and Weegar won't. 

 

Already suggested that too.

 

If the ARZ rumours are true (ARZ wants Andersson for this year's 1st) then we are off to the races.  Use that to extract more from OTT and BUF.

[bosn111]

If we look at possible trade returns for our players, what would that equate to as picks coming back. Yes possibly prospects and players as well, but for this post, only looking at picks.

 

Markstrom will only waive his NMC to go to a contender. This means a mid to late 1st round pick at best towards the draft. Nothing in the top 15. Few teams in contention are actually looking for a new starter, especially with term and big cap hit like Markstrom. Does Jersey think he is enough of a difference maker to get them into playoffs this year and in future years? Not sure who else would even be in the mix. Still not a high first rounder regardless.

 

Hanifin is less interested in going to an immediate contender, more looking for long term, close to home, and a lifestyle. Could possibly find a lower achieving dance partner that would give up a higher pick, but I think his UFA status limits suitors.

 

Tanev is going to a contender, likely as a rental, so late first rounder at best.

 

Kadri, if moved, would only be to a contender, so again late first at best.

 

Mangiapane is more of a complimentary trade piece rather than core, so alone may net a 2nd rounder.

 

If you retained half salary, Huberdeau might get a decent draft pick, but Flames would never retain that much for that long in order to get any decent return.

 

Andersson is best bet to get a higher 1st rounder. Teams like Ottawa, Montreal, Arizona, Buffalo and Anaheim who are middling low teams, but not bottom of the league, may be willing to move a 5-10 OA pick for Andersson, Maybe.

 

Weegar is your best bet to get a high pick for the exact reason you don’t move him.

 

So unless you can get Chicago or Buffalo to trade for Hanifin, I don’t see a trade that gets the Flames into the top 5, Andersson might get into top 10. But that is about all I see.

[sak22]

8 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

You kind of said it yourself, the mix isn't right.  Namely, they don't have RHS RD to make D pairings.  Remember when the Flames had Regehr, Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, and Giordano?  Big names.  It didn't work.  No one wanted to play the right side.  BUF and OTT are in similar situations.

 

Furthermore, RHS RD is more rare in the NHL than LD.  Of course it would be a dream to trade excess LD for RD and don't skip a beat.  What team has excess RD to trade OTT for Chychrun?  None.  Who would give a RD for Mittlestad?  They certainly wouldn't get quality D like Weegar (NHL leading goals scorer for D) and Andersson (26 and the perfect complementary top pair hybrid type).  Both have term left which is incentive to trade a top 10 pick for.  They are not rentals.

 

Sure BUF and OTT can keep their picks and wait 4 years... How many years have they been out of the playoffs?  They want to win now.  Getting a top pair RD in their prime is serious business and a move in the right direction for both teams.

Not exactly where I'm going, just something isn't right with that team, horrible defensively really bad special teams.  They went out on a limb with a lot of long term contracts and I don't think many are truly rewarding them, they have some good players, but I think Stutzle is the only one close to a star and right now I still don't know what he is.  They aren't a Weegar away, and we are forgetting that the organization is different, sure the fanbase is impatient, but Staios is new to the GM's seat don't think his job is on the line next year and frankly he may want to move in a different direction with that core, and Andlauer is in his first year of owning the team I could definitely see him wanting to keep his pick in his first draft unless he is getting a true superstar.

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, sak22 said:

Not exactly where I'm going, just something isn't right with that team, horrible defensively really bad special teams.  They went out on a limb with a lot of long term contracts and I don't think many are truly rewarding them, they have some good players, but I think Stutzle is the only one close to a star and right now I still don't know what he is.  They aren't a Weegar away, and we are forgetting that the organization is different, sure the fanbase is impatient, but Staios is new to the GM's seat don't think his job is on the line next year and frankly he may want to move in a different direction with that core, and Andlauer is in his first year of owning the team I could definitely see him wanting to keep his pick in his first draft unless he is getting a true superstar.

 

Sure that's fair.  OTT may have bought more time now that they have new management.  But it has been 2016-17 since they were last in the playoffs.  I think fans are impatient.

 

Weegar is not a super star but a legit top pair RD.  It's not a nobody and it's not nothing.  He would absolutely have a positive impact on OTT and imo, especially with helping their D pairings.  I would argue Weegar's veteran age is a net positive for that young D core.

 

Can the Sens find a Weegar out there by other means?  I would think it's super hard.  If it was so easy, then teams wouldn't always been short a RD all around the NHL.

[sak22]

11 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Sure that's fair.  OTT may have bought more time now that they have new management.  But it has been 2016-17 since they were last in the playoffs.  I think fans are impatient.

 

Weegar is not a super star but a legit top pair RD.  It's not a nobody and it's not nothing.  He would absolutely have a positive impact on OTT and imo, especially with helping their D pairings.  I would argue Weegar's veteran age is a net positive for that young D core.

 

Can the Sens find a Weegar out there by other means?  I would think it's super hard.  If it was so easy, then teams wouldn't always been short a RD all around the NHL.

I don't think I meant that he wouldn't have a positive impact.  I just don't look at the Sens core in the same light you do I guess, I don't feel they are that good.

[cross16]

8 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I don't think I meant that he wouldn't have a positive impact.  I just don't look at the Sens core in the same light you do I guess, I don't feel they are that good.

 

Agreed. They are IMO the most overrated team in the league. 

 

they have about 5-6 good/interesting pieces surrounded but a whole lot of meh and roster filler to me.  They also have some of the worst goaltending in the league. 

 

They are not that close IMO. 

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, sak22 said:

I don't think I meant that he wouldn't have a positive impact.  I just don't look at the Sens core in the same light you do I guess, I don't feel they are that good.

 

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Agreed. They are IMO the most overrated team in the league. 

 

they have about 5-6 good/interesting pieces surrounded but a whole lot of meh and roster filler to me.  They also have some of the worst goaltending in the league. 

 

They are not that close IMO. 

 

I don't disagree they are a roster full of placeholders and AHL depths players.  But the core intriguing with Stutzle, Tkachuk, Sanderson, Chabot, and you round that would with Norris, Pinto, and Batherson.  What they are missing are more vets... Backlund/Coleman-types in the bottom 6.  They need Weegar's veteran leadership on the Blueline to guide the kids.  

 

I think OTT has a promising core group.  So next is surrounding them with quality depth players... Which is the opposite of the Flames.  We have quality depth but lack high end young core group.

[cross16]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

I don't disagree they are a roster full of placeholders and AHL depths players.  But the core intriguing with Stutzle, Tkachuk, Sanderson, Chabot, and you round that would with Norris, Pinto, and Batherson.  What they are missing are more vets... Backlund/Coleman-types in the bottom 6.  They need Weegar's veteran leadership on the Blueline to guide the kids.  

 

I think OTT has a promising core group.  So next is surrounding them with quality depth players... Which is the opposite of the Flames.  We have quality depth but lack high end young core group.

 

I'm not as bullish but I get where you are going. 

 

I just don't think you give up top 10 picks for what you are saying here though, that would be my main point. Can find a veteran presence without giving up top 10 picks. 

 

Goalie is there biggest need. if they are giong to give up their first I think it be for that. 

[sak22]

6 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

I don't disagree they are a roster full of placeholders and AHL depths players.  But the core intriguing with Stutzle, Tkachuk, Sanderson, Chabot, and you round that would with Norris, Pinto, and Batherson.  What they are missing are more vets... Backlund/Coleman-types in the bottom 6.  They need Weegar's veteran leadership on the Blueline to guide the kids.  

 

I think OTT has a promising core group.  So next is surrounding them with quality depth players... Which is the opposite of the Flames.  We have quality depth but lack high end young core group.

I don't find the core that intriguing.  I think Stutzle is great, but he's a Scottie Pippen, won't win if he's your best player.  Tkachuk I think is overhyped because of the name, Sanderson is still growing but I don't see elite in him and Chabot is essentially a Hanifin, they are the same age and have accomplished the same thing only Hanifin started younger and has had less injuries.  I like Batherson and Pinto, but the Norris contract is awful already.  And as cross pointed out the goaltending is horrible and signed long term.  Just if I'm Andlauer and Staios I'm not looking to try and compliment Dorion's awful work, I'm going for a shakeup.

[bosn111]

This is an interesting discussion, and is one I am curious about. I know there are obviously different perspectives on it, but there seem to be some common threads.

 

Peeps and likely someone else has said that trading Weegar now would bring a solid return, and the Flames could just sign a cheaper vet presence in the offseason to help the kids. Cross has now argued Ottawa could do the same thing instead of trading for Weegar.

 

My question around this, based on a few things, is: what kind of veteran support do young players need?

 

Some fans argue that a veteran voice, regardless of role, is enough to support the young guys, while others argue you need an example as well as a voice of where the young guys want to be. So which is it?

 

Weegar is a vet who is skilled, hard working, and a good voice to bring along young D. Tanev is similar though less offensive skill more guys and defensive acumen. They aren’t just voices, they are examples of quality players as well. Hurdler was great for the young guys for the same reasons as Weegar while Coleman is in the Tanev mould. 
 

Historically good teams have had quality skill vets who insulated the young guys getting up to speed. An example is the Sedins started in the middle six with the West Coast Express taking the lead and pressure until the twins were ready to take over. Fleury came to prominence with the Flames following time behind Lanny, Mullen, Peplinsky, Gilmour, Nieuwendyk, etc.

 

Conversely the Young Guns era of the 90s, derailed by some injuries, bad luck, and simply not enough talent, was only ended when the team went back to getting the proper veterans like Housley, Conroy, and Lowry. Yes Iginla helped, and Regehr, Kipper etc. but they had the right vets to support them.

 

I would rather have Weegar and Coleman as team drivers, examples for the young guys, than be like the Oilers of the 2010s who tried to have the young guys guys charge ahead without success.

[The_People1]

2 minutes ago, bosn111 said:

This is an interesting discussion, and is one I am curious about. I know there are obviously different perspectives on it, but there seem to be some common threads.

 

Peeps and likely someone else has said that trading Weegar now would bring a solid return, and the Flames could just sign a cheaper vet presence in the offseason to help the kids. Cross has now argued Ottawa could do the same thing instead of trading for Weegar.

 

My question around this, based on a few things, is: what kind of veteran support do young players need?

 

Some fans argue that a veteran voice, regardless of role, is enough to support the young guys, while others argue you need an example as well as a voice of where the young guys want to be. So which is it?

 

Weegar is a vet who is skilled, hard working, and a good voice to bring along young D. Tanev is similar though less offensive skill more guys and defensive acumen. They aren’t just voices, they are examples of quality players as well. Hurdler was great for the young guys for the same reasons as Weegar while Coleman is in the Tanev mould. 
 

Historically good teams have had quality skill vets who insulated the young guys getting up to speed. An example is the Sedins started in the middle six with the West Coast Express taking the lead and pressure until the twins were ready to take over. Fleury came to prominence with the Flames following time behind Lanny, Mullen, Peplinsky, Gilmour, Nieuwendyk, etc.

 

Conversely the Young Guns era of the 90s, derailed by some injuries, bad luck, and simply not enough talent, was only ended when the team went back to getting the proper veterans like Housley, Conroy, and Lowry. Yes Iginla helped, and Regehr, Kipper etc. but they had the right vets to support them.

 

I would rather have Weegar and Coleman as team drivers, examples for the young guys, than be like the Oilers of the 2010s who tried to have the young guys guys charge ahead without success.

 

Well, the Flames aren't winning anything next year so we merely need a "veteran presence" to shelter the younger D.  I'm arguing the Sens want more than just a veteran presence.  They want an "impact top pair RD" and Weegar slots in well.  You cannot find Weegar-types easily via UFA. 

 

I haven't looked at cap friendly but how many top pair RD are coming onto the market this summer?  After that, how many would be willing to sign in OTT?  How much would OTT have to overpay?

 

The price for a top pair RD just might as well be a 10th overall pick.  Weegar is signed long term, from Ottawa, etc, etc.

[bosn111]

I agree Weegar would be great for Ottawa, but as you say, he is signed long term so I think he has high value for the Flames by staying.

 

I did look at UFA D coming up, and there is little to be excited about for vets. You MAY have a chance at Montour, but why would he sign on to be a workhorse / placeholder on a rebuilding team? The same goes for any vet D the Flames might target in UFA. The only way you draw them in is by overpaying for them, so why not just keep the vet you already signed who is also a good example? To get a pick that may or may not make the team even in the next 4 years? Who may not ever be more than bottom pair on a good team?

 

I know that unless Conroy pulls off some magic and the team next year just clicks, that the chances they do much next year is low. But I’m not just looking at the next year or 2. If we trade Weegar now, we are back to where we have been for the past decade (other than Giordano), a revolving door of D because nobody ever really gets set.

 

For me, Weegar, Coleman, and Wolf are as close to untouchable as possible. Andersson, Sharangovich, and Zary are next. Follow that tier with Pospisil, Pelletier, Coronato, Honzek, Kuznetsov, Solovyov, and Poirier. Everyone else can be readily traded for fair price.

 

Huberdeau, Kadri and Backlund are all unlikely to move unless they request a trade, so I didn’t include them on the list.

 

We talk about asset management and when should players be moved, but we should also talk about when to keep them. The Flames have made mistakes both ways in the past. It would be a mistake, in my opinion, to move Weegar now unless he has asked for a trade.

 

[sak22]

I'm not arguing for trading Weegar or keeping him.  I just don't see the Ottawa perspective and now they have a new owner who spent a lot of money to buy a team that had spent 2 higher first round picks trying to compliment his core to minimal results, I don't see them going down that path again.  And the devil's advocate from Calgary's perspective what if 4-5 years down the road the Flames are in need of a dman like Weegar, because they aren't easy to acquire, but the current state of D prospects isn't good at either LH or RH. 

 

But for the sake of people like @Thebrewcrew who do great work of providing draft discussion, I will apologize for dragging this one as much as it did in the Ottawa direction and try to keep my comments to the prospects from now on.

[Thebrewcrew]

Turns out Shaw carries a bunch of OHL games. I’ve been able to catch more of the OHL this year than the Dub.

 

Anyway, Sam Dickinson is a stud. He looks like an NHL defenceman out there. Really smooth. London is really good, which undoubtedly inflates the point totals, but the growth he’s shown in his offensive game with his already solid defence game, it’s impressive.

 

There are a handful of players at the top of this draft that could get a look in the NHL next year, he’s definitely one of them.

[jjgallow]

Any thoughts on Jesse Pulkkinen as a sleeper pick?

[Thebrewcrew]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

Any thoughts on Jesse Pulkkinen as a sleeper pick?

Older players typically go in rounds 5-7. He's ranked anywhere from late first, to third round. I'll have to take a closer look at him.

 

[Thebrewcrew]

 

[MP5029]

2 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

 

Slick skater 

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

 

 

Legit.