2023 Offseason

[Thebrewcrew]

One more meaningless game, then it's the offseason for the Flames. Been working at this for a while.

 

The biggest question is the GM. Does he stick around? I think there'll be news one way or another, likely in the next week or so.

 

Then you look at the coach. I don't think he's going anywhere. I do think there'll be changes to the staff though. There'll be consequences for the results of this season even if the Head Coach stays. I would really push for Mitch Love. Her's gonna get an NHL job. It needs to be here. This is an org that had Jared Bednar at one point.

 

The Flames are in a tough cap situation. They are gonna have a difficult time making external additions this summer. They are gonna have to unload some salaries. It's possible they can go into LTI with Kylington, but if not the two names I look at are 

Zadorov

Vladar

 

Goaltending was a major reason the Flames missed the playoffs. Dustin Wolf has been the best goalie in the AHL for two years, he might be the MVP this season. It's time to reward that. Make a spot for him by moving a Vladar. There are plenty of veteran backups available to be signed for insurance. Adin Hill.

 

Three fairly significant contract negotiations need to happen this summer.

Lindholm- It's gonna be really expensive. Don't think he was thrilled with his last deal as he changed agents shortly after. 8-9 on an 8yr term.

Hanifin- Also gonna be expensive. I'd be a little apprehensive on this one. I think the ask would be in the 6.5-7.5 range.

Toffoli- career year over the age of 30. I'd probably look at the deal Pavelski signed going from SJ to DAL, 7x3. Could be a really nice piece of asset management though. You could arguably flip him for more than you paid for him.

 

Lewis and Lucic are UFA. Shake their hands and thank them for their service, it's time to move on though. The Flames have a chance to renovate their 4th line. For the first time in almost a decade they won't have an overpriced player on the 4th line. Brouwer/Neal/Stajan/Lucic. Calgary needs to get much younger in the bottom six. Would love a 4th line of Pelletier-Zary/Ruzicka-Duehr. Sign Ritchie to a PTO if you want them to "earn it" in camp... 

[jjgallow]

A lot here feel this is more Sutter than the GM.

 

I'm with you, I think you look at the GM, and if not the GM, then higher than the GM.

 

Hoping for change here.

[robrob74]

5 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

One more meaningless game, then it's the offseason for the Flames. Been working at this for a while.

 

The biggest question is the GM. Does he stick around? I think there'll be news one way or another, likely in the next week or so.

 

Then you look at the coach. I don't think he's going anywhere. I do think there'll be changes to the staff though. There'll be consequences for the results of this season even if the Head Coach stays. I would really push for Mitch Love. Her's gonna get an NHL job. It needs to be here. This is an org that had Jared Bednar at one point.

 

The Flames are in a tough cap situation. They are gonna have a difficult time making external additions this summer. They are gonna have to unload some salaries. It's possible they can go into LTI with Kylington, but if not the two names I look at are 

Zadorov

Vladar

 

Goaltending was a major reason the Flames missed the playoffs. Dustin Wolf has been the best goalie in the AHL for two years, he might be the MVP this season. It's time to reward that. Make a spot for him by moving a Vladar. There are plenty of veteran backups available to be signed for insurance. Adin Hill.

 

Three fairly significant contract negotiations need to happen this summer.

Lindholm- It's gonna be really expensive. Don't think he was thrilled with his last deal as he changed agents shortly after. 8-9 on an 8yr term.

Hanifin- Also gonna be expensive. I'd be a little apprehensive on this one. I think the ask would be in the 6.5-7.5 range.

Toffoli- career year over the age of 30. I'd probably look at the deal Pavelski signed going from SJ to DAL, 7x3. Could be a really nice piece of asset management though. You could arguably flip him for more than you paid for him.

 

Lewis and Lucic are UFA. Shake their hands and thank them for their service, it's time to move on though. The Flames have a chance to renovate their 4th line. For the first time in almost a decade they won't have an overpriced player on the 4th line. Brouwer/Neal/Stajan/Lucic. Calgary needs to get much younger in the bottom six. Would love a 4th line of Pelletier-Zary/Ruzicka-Duehr. Sign Ritchie to a PTO if you want them to "earn it" in camp... 

I dunno. I remember him being happy with the deal and being in Calgary. The Hurricanes seemed to give up on him. At the time I think his value was fair and probably due to being misused. Much like Hudler, he needed a bit of a better chance to prove more. I think he has done more and is more than I hoped for. 
 

imagine if the Canes kept him! They seem like an ideal team, maybe out of necessity. I mean mostly regarding scouting. 

[bosn111]

I am guessing you see at least one of Treliving or Sutter leaving, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the team move on from both.

 

Lots of changes to be made in the offseason due to need. Will this be something that will be better or worse remains to be seen.

[robrob74]

4 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

A lot here feel this is more Sutter than the GM.

 

I'm with you, I think you look at the GM, and if not the GM, then higher than the GM.

 

Hoping for change here.

I am very scared, because we could do worse for GM. 
 

up until Brad, I feel like we had a lot of crap. That's part of the reason BT is loved here though. He is doing relatively well enough, average, or better than what we've had, so people are happy with him. 
 

i don't agree with, just because it's a league norm that some of the things that have happened be passable. 
 

so, I'm torn, and afraid.

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, bosn111 said:

I am guessing you see at least one of Treliving or Sutter leaving, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the team move on from both.

 

Lots of changes to be made in the offseason due to need. Will this be something that will be better or worse remains to be seen.

sometimes it happens right away. Sometimes it happens after the playoffs. Teams tend to go fast, before the playoffs so as to not distract from  the playoffs and wait until after they're done. 

[cross16]

18 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I am very scared, because we could do worse for GM. 
 

up until Brad, I feel like we had a lot of crap. That's part of the reason BT is loved here though. He is doing relatively well enough, average, or better than what we've had, so people are happy with him. 
 

i don't agree with, just because it's a league norm that some of the things that have happened be passable. 
 

so, I'm torn, and afraid.

Small part of this. Most of it is I actually think he’s doing well given the circumstances. I don’t think the circumstances are ideal for any GM here. 
so unless those circumstances change a new GM is very much a careful what you wish for scenario. I don’t see how they attract a top candidate and I think the next guy is going to do a lot of the same actions that Treliving gets criticized for. 
 

I think the best case scenario is the flames are sitting on someone in Conroy. I’m skeptical but that be best case I think. 

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Small part of this. Most of it is I actually think he’s going well given the circumstances. I don’t think the circumstances are ideal for any GM here. 
so unless those circumstances change a new GM is very much a careful what you wish for scenario. I don’t see how they attract a top candidate and I think the next guy is going to do a lot of the same actions that Treliving gets criticized for. 
 

I think the best case scenario is the flames are sitting on someone in Conroy. I’m skeptical but that be best case I think. 

I agree! It's why I'm a bit scared about it. I really don't see BT back, and I think it's his decision. I heard on a Fan radio hit that he was offered but refused. Maybe it's negotiation tactics, but I think it's honourable. He didn't do anything scary to harm the future of the team...

 

don't get me wrong, I do like BT... and I think we will see the real BT on another team that gives him autonomy. 

[robrob74]

Sutter in his postgame just said, we still have one more game to win. We will talk off-season after that game.

[cross16]

Obvious first domino is not just GM but direction of the team. Pretty clear by now that this GM and coach are not on the same page so who wins? Do either of them win? Been hints we could see massive change but is just one of them big enough? So what’s the direction and then from there dominos will fall. 
 

Treliving going is debatable (although I too am leaning that he likely leaves on his own) but the only thing I’m sure of is Sutter cannot return. He did an awful job this year but outside of that he just is not the right coach for the game today and the org. He just has the wrong philosophy around young players and imo has to go for this team primarily. I sure as heck don’t want to have to see more young players get frustrated or wasted because of him. 
 

so pick a direction and let go of Sutter and then we can talk. 

[420since1974]

I'm getting the feeling that if Sutter stays, the Flames will be picking in the Top 10 of the 2024 draft.

Next season, there will be 6 forwards and 4 defensemen that will be on the last year of their contracts, they might play their butts off.

The rest of the team, especially those on long term contracts, may just tune Sutter out and wait for the next coach.

[jjgallow]

Flames could be screwed, and this is a good thing.

 

If they aren't, they will be next offseason.

 

On Sutter:   Yeah he probably leaves, mutual.   I could be wrong but I don't think what comes next is his cup of tea.

                        I will say this:  I don't think it's actually consequential.

 

On BT:     Hard to say.

 

On Direction:   I will agree with @cross16 that the direction is the biggest piece.

                     

                           And that's why I started off by saying the Flames are screwed.

 

                          They are no longer in a position to take on more nightmare contracts.   They could prove me wrong but I think we've seen the last of em for a while.

                          They are no longer in a position waste picks.  Nobody's going to buy the "going for it" line with this roster.

                          They are no longer in a position to let players walk for free.   Now, this could still happen lol but they will be extremely risk-sensitive here.

 

 

Whatever happens next, their options are a lot more limited this off-seaon, and for the next few.

 

And THAT...is a Wonderful thing for the future of the organization.

 

   How those chips fall, who comes and goes, who gets blamed, and when they choose to "decide to rebuild", are all...questions for this offseason and the next year.

         But I don't see another hail-mary like last off-season.  No ammunition left for that.

 

      As soon as the organization stops wasting its future, the sooner fans can start looking forward to the future.  Even if we gotta put up with a bit of a pothole.

 

[The_People1]

The proper way to do this is let the GM hire his coach.  What potential GM is going to take this job knowing the coach calls the shots?

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Three fairly significant contract negotiations need to happen this summer.

Lindholm- It's gonna be really expensive. Don't think he was thrilled with his last deal as he changed agents shortly after. 8-9 on an 8yr term.

Hanifin- Also gonna be expensive. I'd be a little apprehensive on this one. I think the ask would be in the 6.5-7.5 range.

Toffoli- career year over the age of 30. I'd probably look at the deal Pavelski signed going from SJ to DAL, 7x3. Could be a really nice piece of asset management though. You could arguably flip him for more than you paid for him.

 

Lewis and Lucic are UFA. Shake their hands and thank them for their service, it's time to move on though. The Flames have a chance to renovate their 4th line. For the first time in almost a decade they won't have an overpriced player on the 4th line. Brouwer/Neal/Stajan/Lucic. Calgary needs to get much younger in the bottom six. Would love a 4th line of Pelletier-Zary/Ruzicka-Duehr. Sign Ritchie to a PTO if you want them to "earn it" in camp... 

 

It all starts with Lindholm.  We shouldn't deal with Hanifin and Toffoli until we know for sure what Lindholm decides to do.  He's basically our best player now so if he's not going to commit long term, then it's time to tear it down.

 

In regards to Hanifin, I really don't want him at $7-mil+ either way.  He's not a legit first pair guy.  He can't stop elite opponents.  He should be second pair and he shouldn't be so expensive in that situation.

 

Moreover, the Flames have 3 LHS LD who could graduate into the NHL in 2 years (not this coming October but the 2025 one)... Hanifin's contract expires the summer of 2024.

 

Kuznetsov will be 22, Solovyov 24, Poirier 22... And we could still have Kylington.  Kuznetsov and Poirier still have top pairing potential.  Let's act on a succession plan to rotate in cap friendly young players.  For once have a succession plan instead of signing average players to long term deals and getting stuck.

[conundrumed]

I'm most interested in seeing where BT goes.

We're going to go through our vicious cycle again. New GM, make big splashes at the expense of picks, stay middle of the road. Up and down like a whore's drawers.

Same old movie. I'm not going to hold my breath on picking a new direction. This is always the direction.

For players I'd like to turn the page on Backlund, Toffoli, Tanev and Mangiapane primarily. Hanifin if we can't afford him at $6.5-7per. Lindholm's worth the Larkin deal.

None of this will happen. We'll get a new GM and we're back to, "let's see what we've got".

 

[MP5029]

I’m not sure what’s gonna happen with BT or Sutter but i can say what the team

will do:

 

Ownership will keep as many of the the UFA and RFAs and fill in holes we here they can, Hubby, Kadri Manji Markstrom will all

stay…not that they should but they will.

 

I can also say what they should do is a full tear down and rebuild but ownership will keep this stupid game of hoping for a rebound season from those big contracts, but that hope will fail like it did this year…we have seen this time and time again.

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I'm most interested in seeing where BT goes.

We're going to go through our vicious cycle again. New GM, make big splashes at the expense of picks, stay middle of the road. Up and down like a whore's drawers.

Same old movie. I'm not going to hold my breath on picking a new direction. This is always the direction.

For players I'd like to turn the page on Backlund, Toffoli, Tanev and Mangiapane primarily. Hanifin if we can't afford him at $6.5-7per. Lindholm's worth the Larkin deal.

None of this will happen. We'll get a new GM and we're back to, "let's see what we've got".

 

 

Wherever it is I look forward to trading with them

[cross16]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I'm most interested in seeing where BT goes.

We're going to go through our vicious cycle again. New GM, make big splashes at the expense of picks, stay middle of the road. Up and down like a whore's drawers.

Same old movie. I'm not going to hold my breath on picking a new direction. This is always the direction.

For players I'd like to turn the page on Backlund, Toffoli, Tanev and Mangiapane primarily. Hanifin if we can't afford him at $6.5-7per. Lindholm's worth the Larkin deal.

None of this will happen. We'll get a new GM and we're back to, "let's see what we've got".

 

I agree with this. To clarify I don’t expect them to pick a new direction either. When I I say pick a direction I mean are we working with Treliving(or a new GMs) vision of a team or Sutters. 
 

I cannot see this team being pulled apart and can’t see the directives from ownership changing. 

[tmac70]

GM- Removed 

can't see a season next year with Trevling. Really where has he been? He is just going through the motions right now of coasting to the finish line. He hasn't been present in the media to water things down, his actions speak volumes, and he isn't coming back either by design or choice. Personally, I am fine with it, we need a change and different vision and eyes at the top. There have been far too many poor decisions with draft choices for duds with him, time to move on. 

 

Coach- TBD

This is tough when you look at the season or fancy stats leagues worst goaltending, under-achieving players, 1-goal games, inability to get a big goal, posts hit, is that on the coach or players, I lean towards the players. What Sutter is horrific with is interaction with people, stubbornness with prospects, and inability to adapt to change. So off-ice, he is a grade-A dick from all accounts. Can anyone provide data or proof that the insertion of the younger players was GUARANTEE you a different result, you can't, that's the issue. Outside of he has a Satoshi Nakamototy personality change some of the aforementioned data and poof you in a playoff spot.  For me, his attitude is more in question than his ability to coach and his personality is more in question than his ability and knowledge to coach, People can change, and that's a conversation that needs to be had with him, if he is not willing or this is who I take it or leave it than you change the coach no questions asked. **** My only reservation with Sutter being allowed to stay is you need a GM that has the balls to stand up to him, or the power to. If he stays and can have his hands in the cookie jar, that's an instant red flag for this organization. If that happens then the owners are complete idiots. 

 

Moving forward once we know who or what direction your going, than we look at the roster, IMHO nobody on this current roster is safe, NO ONE. 

 

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

I agree with this. To clarify I don’t expect them to pick a new direction either. When I I say pick a direction I mean are we working with Treliving(or a new GMs) vision of a team or Sutters. 
 

I cannot see this team being pulled apart and can’t see the directives from ownership changing. 

 

Despite my lobbying to "shorten the pending rebuild", I also don't see the team being pulled apart this offseason.

 

The main reason for that, though: 

 

It already has been.

[jjgallow]

21 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

GM- Removed 

can't see a season next year with Trevling. Really where has he been? He is just going through the motions right now of coasting to the finish line. He hasn't been present in the media to water things down, his actions speak volumes, and he isn't coming back either by design or choice. Personally, I am fine with it, we need a change and different vision and eyes at the top. There have been far too many poor decisions with draft choices for duds with him, time to move on. 

 

Agreed.  could be the owners fault but agree all the same.

 

 

21 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

Coach- TBD

This is tough when you look at the season or fancy stats leagues worst goaltending, under-achieving players, 1-goal games, inability to get a big goal, posts hit, is that on the coach or players, I lean towards the players. What Sutter is horrific with is interaction with people, stubbornness with prospects, and inability to adapt to change. So off-ice, he is a grade-A dick from all accounts. Can anyone provide data or proof that the insertion of the younger players was GUARANTEE you a different result, you can't, that's the issue. Outside of he has a Satoshi Nakamototy personality change some of the aforementioned data and poof you in a playoff spot.  For me, his attitude is more in question than his ability to coach and his personality is more in question than his ability and knowledge to coach, People can change, and that's a conversation that needs to be had with him, if he is not willing or this is who I take it or leave it than you change the coach no questions asked. **** My only reservation with Sutter being allowed to stay is you need a GM that has the balls to stand up to him, or the power to. If he stays and can have his hands in the cookie jar, that's an instant red flag for this organization. If that happens then the owners are complete idiots. 

 

Agreed.

 

21 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

 

Moving forward once we know who or what direction your going, than we look at the roster, IMHO nobody on this current roster is safe, NO ONE. 

 

 

We have a number of players in nightmare contracts that probably feel pretty safe right now.   Unfortunately.

 

They stand a decent chance of declining with us right through the whole upcoming rebuild that we're not having. 

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, MP5029 said:

I’m not sure what’s gonna happen with BT or Sutter but i can say what the team

will do:

 

Ownership will keep as many of the the UFA and RFAs and fill in holes we here they can, Hubby, Kadri Manji Markstrom will all

stay…not that they should but they will.

 

Yup.  They might have a surprise or 2, they will show signs of life but their options are very limited now.

 

4 hours ago, MP5029 said:

 

I can also say what they should do is a full tear down and rebuild but ownership will keep this stupid game of hoping for a rebound season from those big contracts, but that hope will fail like it did this year…we have seen this time and time again.

 

This.  

 

Good thing is, it'll happen with their initiative or without it.  We'll just have to be patient.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, tmac70 said:

GM- Removed 

can't see a season next year with Trevling. Really where has he been? He is just going through the motions right now of coasting to the finish line. He hasn't been present in the media to water things down, his actions speak volumes, and he isn't coming back either by design or choice. Personally, I am fine with it, we need a change and different vision and eyes at the top. There have been far too many poor decisions with draft choices for duds with him, time to move on. 

 

Coach- TBD

This is tough when you look at the season or fancy stats leagues worst goaltending, under-achieving players, 1-goal games, inability to get a big goal, posts hit, is that on the coach or players, I lean towards the players. What Sutter is horrific with is interaction with people, stubbornness with prospects, and inability to adapt to change. So off-ice, he is a grade-A dick from all accounts. Can anyone provide data or proof that the insertion of the younger players was GUARANTEE you a different result, you can't, that's the issue. Outside of he has a Satoshi Nakamototy personality change some of the aforementioned data and poof you in a playoff spot.  For me, his attitude is more in question than his ability to coach and his personality is more in question than his ability and knowledge to coach, People can change, and that's a conversation that needs to be had with him, if he is not willing or this is who I take it or leave it than you change the coach no questions asked. **** My only reservation with Sutter being allowed to stay is you need a GM that has the balls to stand up to him, or the power to. If he stays and can have his hands in the cookie jar, that's an instant red flag for this organization. If that happens then the owners are complete idiots. 

 

Moving forward once we know who or what direction your going, than we look at the roster, IMHO nobody on this current roster is safe, NO ONE. 

 

 

Lame duck GM not having a contract.  The only assets that teams wanted were picks and prospects.  Nobody wanted a Lucic or Lewis.  Turned a D that Sutter wouldn't play and a Ritchie into another Ritchie and Stecher.  Nobody wanted us to give up a 1st rounder.  You can blame the GM for trades and signings, but ask yourself who was providing the list of player to go after?  Pro scouting?  Ownership?  Coach?

 

You have blinders to the coach's impact on the team.  It wasn't the dick press conferences that killed the results.  It was a early 2000's mindset in a game that has changed in the last 10 years.  There aren't many team that play the style we do, and none of them are in the playoffs.  If you need to depend on goaltending, then most teams will not survive.  Yeah, we had the suckiest bunch of sucks in nets for most of the season.  Maybe some of it is on the coaching decisions on who to start, but it seemed by January that it didn't matter.  

 

I think it's been mentioned before but a Pres of hockey ops is needed to insulate the GM.  Decide where you are going and tell the owners that is the plan.  Tell them what you need to do and how it's going to change the organization from a bridesmaid to a bride.  It's going to be run as a business not a country club.  I'm not talking about players, but they need to define the must haves and must goes.

[conundrumed]

Well this is fun...

 

[travel_dude]

17 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Well this is fun...

 

 

He probably felt dissed due to bringing in Kadri, and thereby demoting him to the 3rd line.

BT wanted depth, so I can understand why he would not seek a trade.

This summer is different.

Everything possible should be on the table.

Not to see we rebuild, just that anything should be looked at for value.

Staying the course makes no sense.

In one out one is not a good plan.