2022 Offseason

[phoenix66]

7 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya I mean, that's the hope right?  Like, it didn't look good on paper and didn't look good in training camp.  Once the season began for real, the group of 6 came together and never looked back.

 

On paper, losing Zadorov and Gudbranson doesn't look good.  Our 3rd pairing next season is Valimaki-Stone?  Doesn't look good.  But I understand kids can make huge leaps from one year to the next.  Maybe Valimaki comes in a completely new player.

I think in the end we have no choice but to graduate some.players..

Ruzicka I can see for sure..Sutter likes him and he progressed over the year.. could even be a good center for Toffoli by then 

 

We've seen what Tanev does for dmen.. as much as I like kyllington, Valimaki brings all that skillwise and IMO a much higher hockey IQ.. next to Tanev he'd likely finally see his potential.. after injuries , being Rushed etc..Sutter was right to keep him in the A . Playing the roles and minutes we will expect of him up here .. I don't think Sutter dislikes Valimaki, he just recognized he needed proper development time . 

If we can keep Gubrandson, which I think is likeliest he could pair easily with Mackey

 

Kyllington may become a good trade chip.. 

I see Lucic retiring . And if he doesn't ,he won't stand in the way of being moved .. he was willing to waive for expansion.. he won't hesitate to waive if it's helping the team . So long as it's not s dumpster fire like Arizona 

 

Pelletier I can see being up here like Ruzicka was this year.. manage his minutes , let him earn more .. 

Tbh ..he could very possibly turn Mangiapane into a trade chip 

[travel_dude]

33 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

So is Ruzicka, Pelletier, and Valimaki for sure NHLers next season?  Anyone else? 

 

Does Mackey have a chance?

Is Zary still far from ready?

Wolf could surprise at camp?

Coronato committed to one more season in College.

Pospisil?

Duehr?

Kuznetsov?

Klapka?

 

Well, it comes down to camp, doesn't it.

We didn't expect Kyl to make it out of camp.

If Mackey has any hope, he has to outplay both Valimaki and Kyl in camp.

If he does, we probably have to trade Valimaki.

I think Zary is still too young and just really getting healthy.

Duehr is a 14th type guy.

I like Pospisil and he could be a Hathaway type.

Fights too much for his own good but gritty.

Kuze is too raw, but there is some hope down the road.

Same with Poirier.

Klapka is an interesting piece.

He was targeted for a reason.

Maybe a Ritchie or Lucic replacement.

Too soon, as we don't even know if he can play in the NHL skill wise.

 

Pelletier is the wild card.  I think he could set up a solid 3rd line.

Pelts-Rozie-Toffoli

Might allow us to use Jarnkrok as a 4RW or 4C.

If Lucic is done, then we build one that you don't worry about giving minutes to.

We have to keep one cop on the roster to avenge Gaudreau or cheap hits.

Would prefer a bit more skill than Ritchie.

[phoenix66]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

So is Ruzicka, Pelletier, and Valimaki for sure NHLers next season?  Anyone else? 

 

Does Mackey have a chance?

Is Zary still far from ready?

Wolf could surprise at camp?

Coronato committed to one more season in College.

Pospisil?

Duehr?

Kuznetsov?

Klapka?

I would say the first 4 are here for sure .. just due to graduation and necessity .. everyone after Mackey just not ready yet..

 

 

My thinking is  the following are off the roster for sure and gone somehow for pure cap reasons 

 

Lucic 

Monahan

Zadorov 

 

Likely gone ..depending on options 

Jarnkrok 

 

Likely candidate to be moved in deals 

Kyllington 

Dube 

 

I'll go so far as to say there will be a deal made that includes a surprising name to address a top pair D or a true #2 center 

Candidates: 

Hanifin

Zary 

Mangiapane

Vladar 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[travel_dude]

Players on the downside and/or likely to not improve next season:

Lucic

Hanifin*

* Hanifin was solid all year, but I think we've seen about the best he can be.

 

Players that couldn't help but be better over 82 games next season:

Jarnkrok

Monahan

Toffoli

 

Players that maybe we've only seen the early stages of a NHL career:

Valimaki

Kylington

Dube* 

* I had trouble deciding if Dube will ever take his game to a new level; saw some spurts but nothing consistent.

 

Players that should be equal or thereabouts as last season:

Gaudreau

Lindholm

Tkachuk

Mangiapane

Backlund

Coleman
Ras

Tanev

 

Maybe we can't bring back everyone, but we were not far from a team that could contend with COL.  GA was a great story last season and what would/should have made a difference in the playoffs.  Toughness was a key attribute and we can't water that down too much.  At the same time, we need to maintain the escape from the zone.  I can see selling high on Kylington, but what do we get in return?  Tkachuk may get you a Laine, but I doubt you get a #1C.  Hanifin + Kylington + Zary + Monahan might get you Chychrun, but it sure kills the depth.    

[phoenix66]

20 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Players on the downside and/or likely to not improve next season:

Lucic

Hanifin*

* Hanifin was solid all year, but I think we've seen about the best he can be.

 

Players that couldn't help but be better over 82 games next season:

Jarnkrok

Monahan

Toffoli

 

Players that maybe we've only seen the early stages of a NHL career:

Valimaki

Kylington

Dube* 

* I had trouble deciding if Dube will ever take his game to a new level; saw some spurts but nothing consistent.

 

Players that should be equal or thereabouts as last season:

Gaudreau

Lindholm

Tkachuk

Mangiapane

Backlund

Coleman
Ras

Tanev

 

Maybe we can't bring back everyone, but we were not far from a team that could contend with COL.  GA was a great story last season and what would/should have made a difference in the playoffs.  Toughness was a key attribute and we can't water that down too much.  At the same time, we need to maintain the escape from the zone.  I can see selling high on Kylington, but what do we get in return?  Tkachuk may get you a Laine, but I doubt you get a #1C.  Hanifin + Kylington + Zary + Monahan might get you Chychrun, but it sure kills the depth.    

You're talking perfect world ..I'm talking necessity.. the money that has to leave the books is necessary to sign the stars we need to..without gutting the other areas..

In kyllington.. what you gain is the ability to improve that pairing by inserting valaimki.. its Gio/ TJ all over again.. kyllington anywhere else but Tanev is a downgrade .. so you get what you can to improve ..

The ones I say could move ..are to get a Chycrun, or to sign a Kadri. Get Phillips and Rosie into the lineup . A higher priced acquisition upgrade could predicate moving Mangiapane ..if it's a forward were replacing with 

Id like to keep jarnkrok but depends on the money and what the other options are ..

I'm hoping we keep Gubrandson..maintain that toughness at the heavyweight level .. there will always be sub million players to add that grit we need as well 

[travel_dude]

11 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

You're talking perfect world ..I'm talking necessity.. the money that has to leave the books is necessary to sign the stars we need to..without gutting the other areas..

In kyllington.. what you gain is the ability to improve that pairing by inserting valaimki.. its Gio/ TJ all over again.. kyllington anywhere else but Tanev is a downgrade .. so you get what you can to improve ..

The ones I say could move ..are to get a Chycrun, or to sign a Kadri. Get Phillips and Rosie into the lineup . A higher priced acquisition upgrade could predicate moving Mangiapane ..if it's a forward were replacing with 

Id like to keep jarnkrok but depends on the money and what the other options are ..

I'm hoping we keep Gubrandson..maintain that toughness at the heavyweight level .. there will always be sub million players to add that grit we need as well 

 

We have seen a steady increase from Mangiapane, so I think it would be 100% backwards to trade him.

Kadri will be as expensive on the open market as re-signing Tkachuk.

 

Lucic and Monahan are the easiest cap savings we can get.

And it likely means no other moves required.

Valimaki has not shown anything yet, but we are quick to move Kylington even though he has?

I would prefer to keep them both.

Neither looked that good away from Tanev, but we are also talking about a post-injury Kyl.

He almost never played away from Tanev all season.

 

I'm just saying we can and should try to at worst stay the same.

The only two players that didn't have a huge impact in the playoffs were Monahan and Lucic.

Lucic was a threat to Benn after Tkachuk had fought twice.

I like his game, but I think we have seen a downturn of Lucic over the last 4 months.

Monahan is simply not the player he was and if he was healthy, maybe we do a bit better.

But it's hard to say.

[The_People1]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

We have seen a steady increase from Mangiapane, so I think it would be 100% backwards to trade him.

Kadri will be as expensive on the open market as re-signing Tkachuk.

 

Lucic and Monahan are the easiest cap savings we can get.

And it likely means no other moves required.

Valimaki has not shown anything yet, but we are quick to move Kylington even though he has?

I would prefer to keep them both.

Neither looked that good away from Tanev, but we are also talking about a post-injury Kyl.

He almost never played away from Tanev all season.

 

I'm just saying we can and should try to at worst stay the same.

The only two players that didn't have a huge impact in the playoffs were Monahan and Lucic.

Lucic was a threat to Benn after Tkachuk had fought twice.

I like his game, but I think we have seen a downturn of Lucic over the last 4 months.

Monahan is simply not the player he was and if he was healthy, maybe we do a bit better.

But it's hard to say.

 

I would say Toffoli is easier to move because no NTC or anything in the way.  He also doesn't fit anywhere in the lineup so he should go.

[cross16]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

For sures.  It's a balancing act and so to do it properly, we should cut cap where there is a replacement ready.  Ruzicka replaces Monahan at 1/6th the cap.  Done.  Goodbye Monahan.  You cannot cut Andersson for example.  There is no RHS RD to replace what he does.

 

I think on D is where we can assume we may be worse off.  Zadorov and Gudbranson were great for us, especially during the regular season.  Mackey and Valimaki are unproven (or proven to not be that good yet depending on how you want to look at it).  We are letting one or both walk away without a replacement ready.

 

Well I think something worth pointing out is part of the reason Z and Gudbranson were good is they were heavily sheltered and managed by the coaching staff. Z was still decent in the playoffs, actually pretty good, but Gudbranson was not. 

 

So part of this is what is the starting benchmark for improvement. 

[travel_dude]

48 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I would say Toffoli is easier to move because no NTC or anything in the way.  He also doesn't fit anywhere in the lineup so he should go.

 

18 points in 23 games while Monahan was still in the lineup.

5 points in 14 games after Monahan was shut down.

He didn't fit the role of a scoring RW to finish the season or the playoffs.

Especially on the PP.

But, I'm not really sure what part of his game didn't fit the most.

Sutter didn't really call him out.

 

Not saying this is really fair but Dube had a much more disappointing playoffs.

[Thebrewcrew]

I think the most likely outcome is a Monahan buyout. Costs 2.375m this upcoming season and then 2m in 23/24. Dead cap is never ideal, but after the 22/23 season there are no significant members of the Flames with expiring deals, which makes a buyout palatable. 

 

A trade is tricky. Nobody is taking all 6.3 without a significant sweetener from the Flames. 

 

The Flames could retain 2m on Monahan, which has the same effect as a buyout, without an additional year of dead money.

 

Or the Flames could make a trade for a player with a similarly problematic deal. Likely less cap hit, but more term.

 

I look at the Bruins, so much of what they're doing this offseason is dependent on Bergeron. But they've got 6 D making 3m and 8 NHL D making over 1m. They've certainly got depth there and the Flames are set to lose their 3rd pair to free agency. 

 

Derek Forbort and Mike Reilly both have 3x2 remaining. Boston is tight against the cap. One of them along with Chris Wagner for Monahan could work. If the Flames want to stay out of LTIR they would bury the Wagner deal. That allows them to spend 27m on 13/19/88 with a 22 player roster

 

 

[phoenix66]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

We have seen a steady increase from Mangiapane, so I think it would be 100% backwards to trade him.

Kadri will be as expensive on the open market as re-signing Tkachuk.

 

Lucic and Monahan are the easiest cap savings we can get.

And it likely means no other moves required.

Valimaki has not shown anything yet, but we are quick to move Kylington even though he has?

I would prefer to keep them both.

Neither looked that good away from Tanev, but we are also talking about a post-injury Kyl.

He almost never played away from Tanev all season.

 

I'm just saying we can and should try to at worst stay the same.

The only two players that didn't have a huge impact in the playoffs were Monahan and Lucic.

Lucic was a threat to Benn after Tkachuk had fought twice.

I like his game, but I think we have seen a downturn of Lucic over the last 4 months.

Monahan is simply not the player he was and if he was healthy, maybe we do a bit better.

But it's hard to say.

you wouldn't move Mangiapane in a trade for , lets say Barzal?  not saying we shop him just that if we need that significant add he could be part of the Bait ..same with Dube 

 

I'd love to stay the same .. but the money isnt there to stay the same 

[LouCifer]

Is Barzal even available?!? I’ve seen his name come up a few times now, what did I miss?

 

Given his penchant for assists, he appears to be the ideal C for the finishers we have on the wings. 

[flames for life]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Players on the downside and/or likely to not improve next season:

Lucic

Hanifin*

* Hanifin was solid all year, but I think we've seen about the best he can be.

 

Players that couldn't help but be better over 82 games next season:

Jarnkrok

Monahan

Toffoli

 

Players that maybe we've only seen the early stages of a NHL career:

Valimaki

Kylington

Dube* 

* I had trouble deciding if Dube will ever take his game to a new level; saw some spurts but nothing consistent.

 

Players that should be equal or thereabouts as last season:

Gaudreau

Lindholm

Tkachuk

Mangiapane

Backlund

Coleman
Ras

Tanev

 

Maybe we can't bring back everyone, but we were not far from a team that could contend with COL.  GA was a great story last season and what would/should have made a difference in the playoffs.  Toughness was a key attribute and we can't water that down too much.  At the same time, we need to maintain the escape from the zone.  I can see selling high on Kylington, but what do we get in return?  Tkachuk may get you a Laine, but I doubt you get a #1C.  Hanifin + Kylington + Zary + Monahan might get you Chychrun, but it sure kills the depth.    

I actually think we haven’t seen all that Dube has to offer; and Mangie has stayed true to his history.  Since his time in the Ahl, Mangie has shown consistent improvement every season.  I would not be surprised to see 40 goals and 70-80 points next year.  That second line was impactful in both series.  Backlund had to step up to allow his wingers to do what they do.

[phoenix66]

28 minutes ago, LouCifer said:

Is Barzal even available?!? I’ve seen his name come up a few times now, what did I miss?

 

Given his penchant for assists, he appears to be the ideal C for the finishers we have on the wings. 

ive seen it a few times too but I highly doubt it .. they basically fired Trotz for him.. but just using as example that if we want to improve an area , somebody we like has to be in the deal..  

difference between shopping someone and having to give to get 

[The_People1]

55 minutes ago, LouCifer said:

Is Barzal even available?!? I’ve seen his name come up a few times now, what did I miss?

 

Given his penchant for assists, he appears to be the ideal C for the finishers we have on the wings. 

 

I think main reason is he had a tough contract negotiation with NYI and so maybe relations have soured.  He also hasn't posted point per game in 4 seasons.  He's a RHS C so that's great news for us if we want.  I can't imagine it will be cheap to acquire him.  I doubt Mangiapane even gets the conversation started.  It will have to start with Tkachuk.  

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Well I think something worth pointing out is part of the reason Z and Gudbranson were good is they were heavily sheltered and managed by the coaching staff. Z was still decent in the playoffs, actually pretty good, but Gudbranson was not. 

 

So part of this is what is the starting benchmark for improvement. 

 

Would you be open to bringing back Zadorov and moving out Toffoli to get it done?

[phoenix66]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

18 points in 23 games while Monahan was still in the lineup.

5 points in 14 games after Monahan was shut down.

He didn't fit the role of a scoring RW to finish the season or the playoffs.

Especially on the PP.

But, I'm not really sure what part of his game didn't fit the most.

Sutter didn't really call him out.

 

Not saying this is really fair but Dube had a much more disappointing playoffs.

ya Sutter actually praised him for the rest of his game.

and in the end he may not have lit it up but he did score in the 2 biggest games-- Dallas Game 7 and Edmonton Game 5 .. so he did score when it really mattered ...  i have no issues with him at all .. 

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

Would you be open to bringing back Zadorov and moving out Toffoli to get it done?

Nope .. you'll see Tyler's full value on a full season 

How long were we looking for a scoring winger ?

[The_People1]

56 minutes ago, flames for life said:

I actually think we haven’t seen all that Dube has to offer; and Mangie has stayed true to his history.  Since his time in the Ahl, Mangie has shown consistent improvement every season.  I would not be surprised to see 40 goals and 70-80 points next year.  That second line was impactful in both series.  Backlund had to step up to allow his wingers to do what they do.

 

Backlund came to play these playoffs no doubt.

 

But come regular season, is he a 45-point guy again?... all with second line minutes and second PP minutes?  I think it would be better to get a second line C to bump him down to 3rd line C because 2nd line C needs to produce more points.

[The_People1]

2 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Nope .. you'll see Tyler's full value on a full season 

How long were we looking for a scoring winger ?

 

Why wouldn't we also see Zadorov's full value paired with Tanev on a full season?  Top 4 D is more important than 2nd line RW i think.

[Thebrewcrew]

I'm fine with the Flames bringing back Lewis or Ritchie, but I'd like to see the Flames get younger and faster on the 4th line.

 

Lucic actually had a fairly productive season, but he really cooled off in the new year, scoring only twice in 2022. Purely, due to cap hit I don't think he's a Flame next year.

 

Lewis will be 36 next year. He fills a role and I'd be fine with keeping him, but I don't know if he's an every day guy. Ritchie contributes very little offensively.

 

If you subscribe to the belief that you need a team to get you to the playoffs, I think the Flames can get more out of their bottom 6 by getting younger and there's a handful of forwards in Stockton knocking on the door.

 

If the Flames want to add experience, every deadline you can get Ryan Carpenter's for a late round pick.

 

[flames for life]

15 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Backlund came to play these playoffs no doubt.

 

But come regular season, is he a 45-point guy again?... all with second line minutes and second PP minutes?  I think it would be better to get a second line C to bump him down to 3rd line C because 2nd line C needs to produce more points.

Totally agree.  Backlund’s best value is third line defensive forward, who can mentor younger players into the nhl game.

[phoenix66]

12 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Why wouldn't we also see Zadorov's full value paired with Tanev on a full season?  Top 4 D is more important than 2nd line RW i think.

Sutter had him 3rd pair for a reason.. he's most effective at lower minutes ..I'd love to have him back but not at the price somebidy will pay him.. plus with Tanev you need an offensive minded partner so Tanev protects the zone while the other guy goes on the rush 

 

Plus ..how many years have we begged for a scoring 2nd line winger ..they don't grow on trees and this one scores 20 a year on a good contract ..he just needs a better playmaker ..which we thought we had until Monahan got shut down 

[The_People1]

17 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Sutter had him 3rd pair for a reason.. he's most effective at lower minutes ..I'd love to have him back but not at the price somebidy will pay him.. plus with Tanev you need an offensive minded partner so Tanev protects the zone while the other guy goes on the rush 

 

Plus ..how many years have we begged for a scoring 2nd line winger ..they don't grow on trees and this one scores 20 a year on a good contract ..he just needs a better playmaker ..which we thought we had until Monahan got shut down 

 

Toffoli wasn't the right fit for the reason there is no better playmaker on this team for him.  Monahan is probably not back next season.  So Toffoli doesn't really fit on this team.

 

All that said, maybe Lucic retiring could be the answer to keep both.

[The_People1]

30 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I'm fine with the Flames bringing back Lewis or Ritchie, but I'd like to see the Flames get younger and faster on the 4th line.

 

Lucic actually had a fairly productive season, but he really cooled off in the new year, scoring only twice in 2022. Purely, due to cap hit I don't think he's a Flame next year.

 

Lewis will be 36 next year. He fills a role and I'd be fine with keeping him, but I don't know if he's an every day guy. Ritchie contributes very little offensively.

 

If you subscribe to the belief that you need a team to get you to the playoffs, I think the Flames can get more out of their bottom 6 by getting younger and there's a handful of forwards in Stockton knocking on the door.

 

If the Flames want to add experience, every deadline you can get Ryan Carpenter's for a late round pick.

 

 

Yes I think there's one team that gets you to the playoffs and then there's the other team to go all the way... Players like Johnny get us into the playoffs.  After that, we need a good bottom 6 to get us the rest of the way.  Top line was shut down against EDM and the bottom 6 didn't step up... Well Ritchie scored 2 and then we benched him the rest of the way...

 

I don't mind Ritchie back.  He's a minimum wager with a specialty.  I know many are not a fan of his.