Playoffs GDT - FLAMES @ Oilers - Sun 22 May 2022

[tmac70]

Here is my take on this.The issue is they are playing on their heels and scared. Everytime Mc Baby touches the puck they panic. There was no part of this game that the Flames were remotely in. Markestrom is not the issue here its the players in front of him. You can't play any sport scared or intimidated or your done. This is similar to what we seen with Colorado a few years back. They are so scared of making mistakes that it just creates more mistakes. The Lucic situation I agree with Sutter Lucic  pulled up. However, if your going to do it, just do it, why hold back. There is only one way this club moves to the next round, it isn't by contening Mc Baby, its removeing him from the series. Will in happen most likely not, love to see it though. He's in their heads now and until they believe he is not unstoppable he will remain unstoppable. Remove the head of the snake and the rest will fall, not complicated, it comes down to who is willing to do it. 

[rickross]

I wish it was simply a matter of the Flames playing on their heels, they aren’t playing scared. They’re playing outplayed..sure McDavid is willing his team to wins but we are straight up playing poor defence and our system is not working as effectively or efficiently as theirs. 
 

I’m actually looking for some structural changes at this point…I know Sutter will lean on the foundation that got them through the regular season but we need to make some X and O’s changes. Flames are very predictable right now, our PP is telegraphed , our entries , cycling, dump ins are predictable. It’s how we kept getting caught on odd man rushes , turning over pucks and weren’t able to generate any major possession time and rarely able to get a high chance shot off. Trust me this isn’t merely about lack of effort or pinning it on Marky or the refs, the Flames blueprint for success has been exposed, Oilers have been able to adapt to it and are exploiting it. Flames aren’t going to hit their way out of this. 

 

 

[rickross]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

Just finished watching the game.

 

We need Tanev back fast or this series is done in 5 and we are going golfing.  Our D is in shambles and even players like Yamamoto and Hyman are successfully pulling off spinnerammas uncontested.  McDavid is having a hay day and giving the rest of his team confidence to do the same.  They are slicing right through our D like we're not even there.  It wasn't just McDavid tonight.  The 2nd and 3rd Oiler lines had sustained pressure in our zone all night.  It wouldn't matter who's in goal.  There's no chance.

 

And on the goals, Hyman goes post-in.  The Kane hattrick can't blame Markstrom as all three were 2-on-1s and the pass came across to Kane in close.  I felt Markstrom played well especially in the 1st period where the Oilers outshot us like 17-9 or something.  Those goals, it would've been nice if he made two or three robberies but that's asking so much.  How about don't give up 2-on-1s to the Oilers top line?  That would really help.  Again, our blueline is totally exposed without Tanev.  It doesn't matter which pairing... McDavid is just absorbing the hit and rolling right off.

 

As for our forwards, it felt like as the game went on and the time started ticking, we turned into individuals.  Everyone trying to do it all by themselves and not passing.  I was saying in the previous game thread that Mike Smith is in our heads.  He was so easy in game 1 that he has us thinking it would be that easy the rest of the way.  We are just launching prayers at the net hoping he would screw up instead of working the puck around like we can.

 

That Lucic/Smith hit was just plain wrong.  I don't know if he was frustrated and did it on purpose but that's just against the code.  No one was nearby and he skates right through Smith.  That's just asking for someone to run Markstrom next game.

The spinnoramas got to a point of ridiculousness. I remember telling the lady sitting next to me the Oilers will be doing triple axels by the 3rd! Stone is a liability on D, big body, big shot but he’s easy to get pucks behind. It just looked as though the majority of our players didn’t have the hockey IQ to adapt on the fly. We had even less space and time than we had against Dallas. Oilers just keep spinning off of just bouncing away from contact. Flames keep going for hits only to be left out of position. They fanned on countless shots let alone passes. They just started trying to force plays to their detriment. Seriously hope Sutter isn’t simply preaching “stick with it” at this point. This is over in Calgary if we don’t figure the next game out. 

[Heartbreaker]

Yeah, while I do like Vladar, I think you have to go with Markstrom. He's the guy this year, and win on his back, and we lose there, too. 

I do agree with the assessment that the boys are playing scared. I hate to see that. They're also making some really bad plays, and they're having some really bad bounces. There were many passes that were off, and some that were very costly. 

 

Hanifin and Toffoli are both bums. There, I said it. 

 

Dump ins are not as effective when the goalie plays the puck better than most in the league. Sure, he's had a lot of gaffes, but let's not pretend like it doesn't disrupt the forecheck. Mike Smith is a big scary dude, too. Lucic didn't rattle him so much that he'll be too scared to play it. 

 

Players like Zach Hyman are eating our defence alive by taking away their time and space. He's very fast, and our boys can't turn and still catch him. 

 

Oh, and then there's that whole McDavid thing. 

 

In any case, I'm really hoping that Game 4 is better. These last two have been really hard to watch, and when the game is in Edmonton, it's even worse. 

 

Love. 

[taz89]

In watching the post game interviews, these guys really look panicked.  I don't think Sutter even knows what to do, unless something happens drastically, these series is going to be over very soon.  They have no answer for Mcbaby, none whatsoever.  With the Dallas series, even though they were down 2-1 after 3 games as well, they were in it until the very end in all of them...Flames are just getting blown out.  I dunno...this looks more like the team of 2018 to me against Colorado.

[phoenix66]

8 hours ago, rickross said:

I wish it was simply a matter of the Flames playing on their heels, they aren’t playing scared. They’re playing outplayed..sure McDavid is willing his team to wins but we are straight up playing poor defence and our system is not working as effectively or efficiently as theirs. 
 

I’m actually looking for some structural changes at this point…I know Sutter will lean on the foundation that got them through the regular season but we need to make some X and O’s changes. Flames are very predictable right now, our PP is telegraphed , our entries , cycling, dump ins are predictable. It’s how we kept getting caught on odd man rushes , turning over pucks and weren’t able to generate any major possession time and rarely able to get a high chance shot off. Trust me this isn’t merely about lack of effort or pinning it on Marky or the refs, the Flames blueprint for success has been exposed, Oilers have been able to adapt to it and are exploiting it. Flames aren’t going to hit their way out of this. 

 

 

I have to agree. We're not scared , we're being pushed off our game .

Those 2 penalties against Lewis for touching McDavid were lame ..but it pushed us to stick checking too much which you can't do against him , he just spins away . I don't feel those are penalties any other game or against any other player ..

League wants to sell the open game .. so interference is a heavy target 

We did play our best game this game ,, best defense against thin is shadow him and take away the players he passes to.. but we weren't taking away the neutral zone enough.

Clog up the middle , replace dump ins with carries and get traffic to the net.. but keep a guy back to protect against break outs . Seems every blocked shot goes the other way.. they're taking away our passing lanes so need to tighten up the spaces 

I still say go with Vladar next game .. they will be forces to change their own game plan as well we automatically change how we play in front of him . 

[cross16]

For me the problem is in the o zone. The oilers have done a really good job of keeping a 3rd forward high because they know the flames want to use the points and by having that forward high it’s limited their ability to use their dmen. So they generate low quality and it’s usually one and done because the oilers are winning the battles and it’s also caused flames to look more east-west and those passes are what is resulting in odd man rushes. 
 

I think the only way you are limiting McDavid in this series is by not letting him have the puck. Flames need to fix their forecheck for that to happen. 

[phoenix66]

28 minutes ago, cross16 said:

For me the problem is in the o zone. The oilers have done a really good job of keeping a 3rd forward high because they know the flames want to use the points and by having that forward high it’s limited their ability to use their dmen. So they generate low quality and it’s usually one and done because the oilers are winning the battles and it’s also caused flames to look more east-west and those passes are what is resulting in odd man rushes. 
 

I think the only way you are limiting McDavid in this series is by not letting him have the puck. Flames need to fix their forecheck for that to happen. 

Yup.. reminds me of Bob Johnson explaining how you stop Gretzky.. you isolate him .take away the players he passes to, and who pass to him ..then shadow him hard .. 

Little tougher in today's NHL but the premise is the same 

[The_People1]

50 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Yup.. reminds me of Bob Johnson explaining how you stop Gretzky.. you isolate him .take away the players he passes to, and who pass to him ..then shadow him hard .. 

Little tougher in today's NHL but the premise is the same 

 

That was said in an era where you can water ski on a paper who DOESN'T have the puck.  Grab a jersey.  Grab an arm.  Hook the player all the way up the ice.  In post-clutch and grab era, you simply cannot shadow anymore.  All the tactics and abilities have been stripped.

[The_People1]

9 hours ago, rickross said:

The spinnoramas got to a point of ridiculousness. I remember telling the lady sitting next to me the Oilers will be doing triple axels by the 3rd! Stone is a liability on D, big body, big shot but he’s easy to get pucks behind. It just looked as though the majority of our players didn’t have the hockey IQ to adapt on the fly. We had even less space and time than we had against Dallas. Oilers just keep spinning off of just bouncing away from contact. Flames keep going for hits only to be left out of position. They fanned on countless shots let alone passes. They just started trying to force plays to their detriment. Seriously hope Sutter isn’t simply preaching “stick with it” at this point. This is over in Calgary if we don’t figure the next game out. 

 

I'm really bothered by the lack of hockey IQ from our D.  We defend where McDavid currently is and not where he is going to go.  No anticipation and no sixth sense.  Can't read the play one second into the future.

 

McDavid is hard to stop but some of his moves are pretty basic and still consistently being able to move right around our D.  Hanifin and Stone especially have no chance.  They are just turned into pylons and McDavid is attacking their side with consistent success.

 

We are both playing scared and being outplayed.  

[travel_dude]

11 hours ago, The_Snowbear said:

Sutter wont give anything to who is starting game 4 cause they dont want oilers knowing

 

Of course he won't.  I didn't hear a question and even so I had no thought that Sutter would name his starter at the end of another game.  They did that with Smith, but it was the day after.  That's their business.  A month ago they wanted to bury Smith, now he is the 2nd coming.  

[phoenix66]

46 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

That was said in an era where you can water ski on a paper who DOESN'T have the puck.  Grab a jersey.  Grab an arm.  Hook the player all the way up the ice.  In post-clutch and grab era, you simply cannot shadow anymore.  All the tactics and abilities have been stripped.

thats why i say different era .. but you can still shadow his outlets .  we get caught chasing McD too much and that leaves Kane and Leon open .  should be a man on both of them at all times .. nobody can shut down McDavid alone  but you can make him do it all himself 

You cant interfere but you can certainly crank them any time they have the puck 

and Ive said it before, dont know if its because of his ankle but we are constantly pulling up on Leon .. he needs to be hit when he has the puck.. sorry , if hes able to play he should get the same treatment as he normally would 

[sak22]

7 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Of course he won't.  I didn't hear a question and even so I had no thought that Sutter would name his starter at the end of another game.  They did that with Smith, but it was the day after.  That's their business.  4 days ago they wanted to bury Smith, now he is the 2nd coming.  

Fixed

[sak22]

Hopefully this fool adds a little fire to their next game

 

 

 

[conundrumed]

10 hours ago, Heartbreaker said:

Hanifin and Toffoli are both bums. There, I said it. 

 

 

Love. 

Hanifin has been playing with zero intensity/urgency. It's frustrating to watch. He's a step behind in decision-making, if not 2.

Just seems way too casual and not playing elevated, at all.

[rocketdoctor]

50 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Hopefully this fool adds a little fire to their next game

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like sour grapes but any fan base that cheers for a douchebag like Kane has got to be real proud.

[The_People1]

57 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

thats why i say different era .. but you can still shadow his outlets .  we get caught chasing McD too much and that leaves Kane and Leon open .  should be a man on both of them at all times .. nobody can shut down McDavid alone  but you can make him do it all himself 

You cant interfere but you can certainly crank them any time they have the puck 

and Ive said it before, dont know if its because of his ankle but we are constantly pulling up on Leon .. he needs to be hit when he has the puck.. sorry , if hes able to play he should get the same treatment as he normally would 

 

I would argue that's how we play normally.  Attack the puck carrier to reduce his time.  Get to the puck carrier's outlet passes to cut them off.  Maybe this system breaks down if there is an elite puck handler who can weave through players consistently.

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

I think the only way you are limiting McDavid in this series is by not letting him have the puck. Flames need to fix their forecheck for that to happen. 

 

In game 1, we had some good O-zone time when McDavid was on the ice.  Trapped him on the defense for a majority of his shifts.  That's the best way to defend against him.  Cycle the puck in his zone and don't shoot and give up possession.  Just keep the puck at the other end of the rink.

 

The Flames have to recognize when he's on the ice and be smart about it.  Be smart about puck management and start a 45 second cycle and don't end it as long as possible.  Don't even work the puck for a shot.  Just defend by wasting his ice time.

 

Instead, the Oilers always seem to have the puck when he's on the ice and we are sitting back letting him wind up with speed.

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, taz89 said:

In watching the post game interviews, these guys really look panicked.  I don't think Sutter even knows what to do, unless something happens drastically, these series is going to be over very soon.  They have no answer for Mcbaby, none whatsoever.  With the Dallas series, even though they were down 2-1 after 3 games as well, they were in it until the very end in all of them...Flames are just getting blown out.  I dunno...this looks more like the team of 2018 to me against Colorado.

 

I felt we bend but didn't break in the 1st period.  After that first goal though, the Flames looked deflated and had no push back.  No energy for some reason.  Played like we were defeated... So I agree it reminds us of the Colorado series where we tried everything by game 3 and it didn't work so we stopped playing. 

 

It's worrying because the Flames are playing like they don't believe they can win.

[robrob74]

17 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

In game 1, we had some good O-zone time when McDavid was on the ice.  Trapped him on the defense for a majority of his shifts.  That's the best way to defend against him.  Cycle the puck in his zone and don't shoot and give up possession.  Just keep the puck at the other end of the rink.

 

The Flames have to recognize when he's on the ice and be smart about it.  Be smart about puck management and start a 45 second cycle and don't end it as long as possible.  Don't even work the puck for a shot.  Just defend by wasting his ice time.

 

Instead, the Oilers always seem to have the puck when he's on the ice and we are sitting back letting him wind up with speed.

 

I think we did that really well but the rest of our game structure went out the window. They were scoring so they went away from the structure and haven’t gone back to it at all. Need to get back to it. 
 

this next game is one of those games where you either do or don’t. I think they can do, so it might be good to have the backs to the wall. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

I felt we bend but didn't break in the 1st period.  After that first goal though, the Flames looked deflated and had no push back.  No energy for some reason.  Played like we were defeated... So I agree it reminds us of the Colorado series where we tried everything by game 3 and it didn't work so we stopped playing. 

 

It's worrying because the Flames are playing like they don't believe they can win.

 

The 2nd goal was the result of a PP ending and PKer needing to get off.  Coleman (I think) didn't recognize the threat and the guy coming on (Lindy) was already behind the play.  I mean it's ridiculous that you defend a guy for almost 2 minutes on the PP and he's first one out at the end of it too.  Make his life miserable before he gets a chance to wind up.  You know he's either carrying it or first pass to him coming out of the zone.  Slash his ankle if you can't stop him.  May cost you 2 minutes, but whatever.  They call it for holding his books after school as it is.  Make the penalty count.  They don't let up on clipping Gaudreau.  

[phoenix66]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I would argue that's how we play normally.  Attack the puck carrier to reduce his time.  Get to the puck carrier's outlet passes to cut them off.  Maybe this system breaks down if there is an elite puck handler who can weave through players consistently.

it totally is, but we've gotten away from it .. id say 1st 15 and last 15 of game one , we played our game ..and totally dominated them .. but we've gotten into McD watching 

Doesnt help we get a penalty nearly every time we make physical contact with him

 

Re-watched Kane's goals yesterday and a few others.. Markstrom gets caught cheating on the pass to McDavid.. we need to get the basics back.. which according to Sutter is trust the system and trust your teammate.. cover your man , dont chase Conner .. Markstrom needs to play the puck carrier and trust the D will take away the pass 

[Heartbreaker]

Also, I think that @Anie8706 would agree - we could use some of this from GB.
 

 

Love.

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

it totally is, but we've gotten away from it .. id say 1st 15 and last 15 of game one , we played our game ..and totally dominated them .. but we've gotten into McD watching 

Doesnt help we get a penalty nearly every time we make physical contact with him

 

Re-watched Kane's goals yesterday and a few others.. Markstrom gets caught cheating on the pass to McDavid.. we need to get the basics back.. which according to Sutter is trust the system and trust your teammate.. cover your man , dont chase Conner .. Markstrom needs to play the puck carrier and trust the D will take away the pass 

 

I think Sutter knows what we did that didn't work.  Getting too close to McD and getting beat.

Same way the D gets beat by Johnny, on the edges.

I'm not saying let him walk in, but put yourself between him and the net.

If he's carrying, you can check the player.

Just don't watch his eyes.

Drive him wide and let your other players cover the passing option.

 

 

Anyway, I don't know.  Seems like we are only allowed to hit him when he's on the boards.

Only in certain circumstances.

What I do know is that Smith is shaky.

Put it on the body and get to the rebound.

Take a slapper close to his chin.

Not to injure, but to make him duck or have a weird bounce come out.

Get him wound up by invading his crease.

Get the D to either take a penalty or push you into him.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think Sutter knows what we did that didn't work.  Getting too close to McD and getting beat.

Same way the D gets beat by Johnny, on the edges.

I'm not saying let him walk in, but put yourself between him and the net.

If he's carrying, you can check the player.

Just don't watch his eyes.

Drive him wide and let your other players cover the passing option.

 

 

Anyway, I don't know.  Seems like we are only allowed to hit him when he's on the boards.

Only in certain circumstances.

What I do know is that Smith is shaky.

Put it on the body and get to the rebound.

Take a slapper close to his chin.

Not to injure, but to make him duck or have a weird bounce come out.

Get him wound up by invading his crease.

Get the D to either take a penalty or push you into him.

 

i think Smith was shaky. We let him settle in and that can be dangerous. A lot of shots can be bad sometimes, if they’re not in good scoring positions. Otherwise it just gets goalies to have a feel for the puck!