2023/24 Roster/Lines

[travel_dude]

34 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Are you sure? Because currently there is a world of question marks. Pelletier, I have zero concerns, he was always going to be a solid player, I've never wavered on that. Rooney, Ruzicka, Duehr, Zary. These are all pretty big question marks and 2 of them will make the current roster, full-time, whether or not they should. Lose Hanifin, if Kylington's play is weak, we're running band-aids in Oesterle and Gilbert.

They're isn't enough competition for likely 3-4 spots. We NEED Duehr and Ruzicka to be consistent because the alternative doesn't really exist. We've been fortunate with injuries, can that continue?

We don't really have much for depth. We're really relying on hope a lot more than I'd be comfortable with. I know the cap is keeping us stagnant, but we can't really afford to just stand still at any rate.

 

14 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I don't really see Duehr as a question mark. I think he is well suited for the 4th line. I felt the Ritchies and Lucic held him back because they got played regardless of their play. 
 

Lucic sat a few games but got played after even when his play dipped.

 

lewis was ok, but I think Duehr at least played to all of those standards of the four players. Only reason he sat was he was a young player. 

 

Both are somewhat unproven.  Ruzicka had a great start to the season when he played top minutes.  Perhaps that's what he is, a top line player needing the minutes to produce.  Duehr needs to be able to produce against all teams, not just the fringe ones.  He had his most points against ARI, SJS, with only 4 of his 11 points against playoff teams.

 

I think it's somewhat okay to have a PTO for some of the remaining guys available.  Tartar on a PTO is better than some of what we have already signed.  Comtois.  Donskoi, Nolan Patrick.  Ethan Bear.  Some guys that may not get deal otherwise.  A one year deal at the end of TC means we have a potential pick or prospect coming back to us at TDL.  We can't just look at what we have and say we are fine.

[The_People1]

53 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Are you sure? Because currently there is a world of question marks. Pelletier, I have zero concerns, he was always going to be a solid player, I've never wavered on that. Rooney, Ruzicka, Duehr, Zary. These are all pretty big question marks and 2 of them will make the current roster, full-time, whether or not they should. Lose Hanifin, if Kylington's play is weak, we're running band-aids in Oesterle and Gilbert.

They're isn't enough competition for likely 3-4 spots. We NEED Duehr and Ruzicka to be consistent because the alternative doesn't really exist. We've been fortunate with injuries, can that continue?

We don't really have much for depth. We're really relying on hope a lot more than I'd be comfortable with. I know the cap is keeping us stagnant, but we can't really afford to just stand still at any rate.

 

This is the type of thinking that made us lose Valimaki for nothing. 

 

It's one thing if we are a top 5 Cup favorite.  If that was the case, then we want 8 NHL D and 14 NHL forwards.  3 NHL G.  But we're not.  The expectation right now is to squeeze into the playoffs.  So, take the leap of faith and bet on your own kids to take the next step.  Again, it comes down to never knowing if we don't give the kids a chance at the big show.  And again, 12 NHL forwards signed (depending on how we categorize Rooney and Coronato).  There is realistically 1 spot or 13th forward job available to be had from camp battles.  Not like we have 5 spots open or something.

 

[The_People1]

40 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I don't really see Duehr as a question mark. I think he is well suited for the 4th line. I felt the Ritchies and Lucic held him back because they got played regardless of their play. 
 

Lucic sat a few games but got played after even when his play dipped.

 

lewis was ok, but I think Duehr at least played to all of those standards of the four players. Only reason he sat was he was a young player. 

 

Duehr is a lock to make the team.  So is Ruzicka.

 

Question mark for me is Coronato.  We don't know if he will just play 8-games and then get sent down to AHL for one year (which would be good for his development).  He might not be ready for a top 6 role right now.

[zima]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

Duehr is a lock to make the team.  So is Ruzicka.

 

Question mark for me is Coronato.  We don't know if he will just play 8-games and then get sent down to AHL for one year (which would be good for his development).  He might not be ready for a top 6 role right now.

Gezz I heard the exact same thing about JH and I know he is not JH but the point is the same thing was said about him. Give the kid a chance before we push him into the AHL just thank god the AHL is in the same building

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Duehr is a lock to make the team.  So is Ruzicka.

 

Question mark for me is Coronato.  We don't know if he will just play 8-games and then get sent down to AHL for one year (which would be good for his development).  He might not be ready for a top 6 role right now.

 

There's zero contract benefit to send him to the AHL.  I can make a case why Ruzicka should not be waived and sent down.  Coronato is only a question mark about best use of contract ELC costs.  He's got 2 years at the present cap hit.  Unlike junior players that had slide years, we start birning his ELC this fall.  

 

Unlike Pelletier, Coronato is a sniper.  If he's going to do anything on the Flames, it has to be in a top or missle 6 role.  I suppose you could have a line of Pelletier-Ruzicka-Coronato, but why would you?  8-10 minutes doesn't get you enough out of them.  They are the value part of the lineup.

 

Honestly, I would be okay in doing a bit of a revamp of the middle 6.  Backlund and Mangiapane out, if we could get a bigger version of Mange or a young top 6 C from the cost of both.  I may be wrong about Mange, but I fear he will be close to last year than his miracle contract year season.  Unlike Dube, he only plays LW.  

[420since1974]

I'm interested to see how well Mangiapane recovers from his shoulder surgery.

He may bounce back to 2021/2022 numbers, or be permanently damaged and stay at 2022/2023 stats.

[travel_dude]

27 minutes ago, 420since1974 said:

I'm interested to see how well Mangiapane recovers from his shoulder surgery.

He may bounce back to 2021/2022 numbers, or be permanently damaged and stay at 2022/2023 stats.

 

Yeah, I don't know how much his production dip was injury and how much was Backlund impact.  Players have performed well with Backlund up to a point and then need to move up.  His shooting % definitely took a hit.  Generally beyween 15%  and 19% but 9% last season.

[conundrumed]

5 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

This is the type of thinking that made us lose Valimaki for nothing. 

 

It's one thing if we are a top 5 Cup favorite.  If that was the case, then we want 8 NHL D and 14 NHL forwards.  3 NHL G.  But we're not.  The expectation right now is to squeeze into the playoffs.  So, take the leap of faith and bet on your own kids to take the next step.  Again, it comes down to never knowing if we don't give the kids a chance at the big show.  And again, 12 NHL forwards signed (depending on how we categorize Rooney and Coronato).  There is realistically 1 spot or 13th forward job available to be had from camp battles.  Not like we have 5 spots open or something.

 

 

I had no issue losing Valimaki for nothing. Most others didn't either. Revisionist history. Sure he can play for ARI, but he was barely a competitive AHL player with us. He didn't deserve a roster spot so was waived. He deserved to be waived and I'd do it again tomorrow. Team cap dump likes him so good for him. I want him to do well but he isn't a loss for us as he was never very good.

Detroit isn't top 5. Take a look at their roster. Johansson is an NHL-ready Dman, Edvinsson is awfully close. Then you have Kasper and Mazur at C and wing. Where are those 4 slotting on that roster?

Would you rather not have that problem of having to make roster moves for them rather than a "leap of faith"? All the while eschewing not wanting to "ruin development". Are we throwing caution to the wind on that now because we need them?

There is a number of low-level contracts(<2mil per) on bonafide NHLers that have been inked this off-season. Us not even thinking about it...for me...I think that's worrisome. Nothing is looking proactive at all when you have so many players entering the last year of contracts. Are we still going to have reactionary mgmt? Because if we wanted change, that's the #1 thing that has to change imo.

Conroy should've signed Suter even if it took 2x$2. Need a 4C. Need a PK C to relieve Lindholm and supplement Backlund. Need a supplemental defensive C so Backlund doesn't have to line-match with the McDavid's alllll game long. Need a stop gap in the case of Backlund leaving.

Yes, Suter is good at all of those things as a 4C or any wing injury you need to cover. And he'll still chip in 15 with shorties. He's not the answer for offence, but he's a very suitable pressure-relief valve to keep your top 6 guys in offensive roles, which shouldn't include Lindholm out on the PK. Now he'll help a principal rival with that.

And here we are again, not being proactive. I could be wrong as Conroy is quasi-new, but it's concerning.

I didn't expect it would end at Oesterle as a 6-7D, which I'm fine with. Clearing out the pro-Sutter guys is fine, adding more pro scouts. But it's pretty clear that he's rolling the same roster back and crossing his fingers.

[travel_dude]

27 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Clearing out the pro-Sutter guys is fine, adding more pro scouts. But it's pretty clear that he's rolling the same roster back and crossing his fingers.

 

It's possible that is what he is doing.  The cap sitting at over $83M with 12F, 8D and 2G, with only 2 players waiver exempt.  Not a good base to begin with.  We could sign a few guys right now, but won't exactly be in a position of strength when we need to trim the roster and cap.  Hanifin and Backlund would be considered cap dumps, even though we want something for them.  So, I lean to COnnie waiting to get those two guys dealt before he adds any pieces.  What pieces would he add when he doesn't know the final trades we would have.

 

The thing that bothers me is the longer this drags out, the more likely the hard decisions aren't made.  And other teams' rosters become set.  Then we are forced to carry the same guys and chances of trade dwindle to nothing, as the TDL is when we Cami a player because they are too valuable to give away for a 2nd.  We see them walk and the cycle repeats.  The added cap next summer is consolation, but makes us a summer UFA buyer.  Again.

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

It's possible that is what he is doing.  The cap sitting at over $83M with 12F, 8D and 2G, with only 2 players waiver exempt.  Not a good base to begin with.  We could sign a few guys right now, but won't exactly be in a position of strength when we need to trim the roster and cap.  Hanifin and Backlund would be considered cap dumps, even though we want something for them.  So, I lean to COnnie waiting to get those two guys dealt before he adds any pieces.  What pieces would he add when he doesn't know the final trades we would have.

 

The thing that bothers me is the longer this drags out, the more likely the hard decisions aren't made.  And other teams' rosters become set.  Then we are forced to carry the same guys and chances of trade dwindle to nothing, as the TDL is when we Cami a player because they are too valuable to give away for a 2nd.  We see them walk and the cycle repeats.  The added cap next summer is consolation, but makes us a summer UFA buyer.  Again.

One of the things that got me was folks saying, "now that Karlsson is off the market...". Well, now it's a retained Petry. But the thing is, neither of those 2 are the same market as Hanifin. Add, Karlsson was always going to Pittsburgh. That was never in doubt and I doubt most teams even gave it a thought. I think Conroy needed to decide on the value of cap space if he wasn't winning a Hanifin trade. Just that cap gets you, say, Suter and Schenn for example. Maybe Mayfield?

But if you don't look beyond return value as potential cap space to try to balance out your team, you're left waiting for something that may never come. You can't change the market. If you won't bother with it, well, you're options aren't great. Everybody knows that he wants out, so your return could potentially diminish further.

I just get a little tired of doublespeak.

"We only want guys that want to be here".

Hanifin: I don't wanna be here.

"Well, I don't like the return values".

Don't let it get public then. Tell the player and agent, "if this gets public, I hope you like Arizona for a year for a bag of pucks. I'm sure that'll help your value next year. DON'T diminish how I can help you".

[cberg]

12 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

There's zero contract benefit to send him to the AHL.  I can make a case why Ruzicka should not be waived and sent down.  Coronato is only a question mark about best use of contract ELC costs.  He's got 2 years at the present cap hit.  Unlike junior players that had slide years, we start birning his ELC this fall.  

 

Unlike Pelletier, Coronato is a sniper.  If he's going to do anything on the Flames, it has to be in a top or missle 6 role.  I suppose you could have a line of Pelletier-Ruzicka-Coronato, but why would you?  8-10 minutes doesn't get you enough out of them.  They are the value part of the lineup.

 

Honestly, I would be okay in doing a bit of a revamp of the middle 6.  Backlund and Mangiapane out, if we could get a bigger version of Mange or a young top 6 C from the cost of both.  I may be wrong about Mange, but I fear he will be close to last year than his miracle contract year season.  Unlike Dube, he only plays LW.  

Personally I would like to see a semi teardown and rebuild, as that provides the best shot at gaining a powerhouse team in the shortest time.  Especially with the amount of UFA free agents next Summer to replace whatever is needed, even star level players.  Obviously trading our unsigned UFAs for picks and top prospects would be preferable, but playing them regardless and letting the chips fall where they may likely gives us the best results this year.  We should be pushing to put our kids into strong roles asap, even if it is "gifting" them spots, to gain experience and if the team suffers in the short term, so be it.  Like a forced rebuild.  At this point I'm focusing on 2-3 years down the road.  Because so many players had bad years last season, and the new positivity and offensive focus in the management and coaching, and the enthusiasm and speed from the kids, I expect the Flames will rebound and be better than last season, playoffs likely, perhaps even top 3 in the Pacific would not surprise me.  Of course injuries can be devastating, knock on wood, but the key thing this season is bringing along the next wave of Flames stars....

[cberg]

8 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I had no issue losing Valimaki for nothing. Most others didn't either. Revisionist history. Sure he can play for ARI, but he was barely a competitive AHL player with us. He didn't deserve a roster spot so was waived. He deserved to be waived and I'd do it again tomorrow. Team cap dump likes him so good for him. I want him to do well but he isn't a loss for us as he was never very good.

Detroit isn't top 5. Take a look at their roster. Johansson is an NHL-ready Dman, Edvinsson is awfully close. Then you have Kasper and Mazur at C and wing. Where are those 4 slotting on that roster?

Would you rather not have that problem of having to make roster moves for them rather than a "leap of faith"? All the while eschewing not wanting to "ruin development". Are we throwing caution to the wind on that now because we need them?

There is a number of low-level contracts(<2mil per) on bonafide NHLers that have been inked this off-season. Us not even thinking about it...for me...I think that's worrisome. Nothing is looking proactive at all when you have so many players entering the last year of contracts. Are we still going to have reactionary mgmt? Because if we wanted change, that's the #1 thing that has to change imo.

Conroy should've signed Suter even if it took 2x$2. Need a 4C. Need a PK C to relieve Lindholm and supplement Backlund. Need a supplemental defensive C so Backlund doesn't have to line-match with the McDavid's alllll game long. Need a stop gap in the case of Backlund leaving.

Yes, Suter is good at all of those things as a 4C or any wing injury you need to cover. And he'll still chip in 15 with shorties. He's not the answer for offence, but he's a very suitable pressure-relief valve to keep your top 6 guys in offensive roles, which shouldn't include Lindholm out on the PK. Now he'll help a principal rival with that.

And here we are again, not being proactive. I could be wrong as Conroy is quasi-new, but it's concerning.

I didn't expect it would end at Oesterle as a 6-7D, which I'm fine with. Clearing out the pro-Sutter guys is fine, adding more pro scouts. But it's pretty clear that he's rolling the same roster back and crossing his fingers.

Losing Valimaki was devastating in my view, though I believe his horrendous injury derailed his career start and the Flames lost patience with him and dropped the ball losing him on waivers.  Unfortunate as I believe he has recovered in Arizona and our situation would be far different if we had him pushing for top D minutes... You can't just drop top draft picks for lack of patience or mismanagement in development.... Similar story with Bennett, our highest draft pick ever.  Hopefully the team has taken a new direction and will show more astute development moving forward.  Certainly having the Wranglers and Flames both in Calgary helps....

[Adrian_Flames_Fan]

12 minutes ago, cberg said:

Personally I would like to see a semi teardown and rebuild, as that provides the best shot at gaining a powerhouse team in the shortest time.  Especially with the amount of UFA free agents next Summer to replace whatever is needed, even star level players.  Obviously trading our unsigned UFAs for picks and top prospects would be preferable, but playing them regardless and letting the chips fall where they may likely gives us the best results this year.  We should be pushing to put our kids into strong roles asap, even if it is "gifting" them spots, to gain experience and if the team suffers in the short term, so be it.  Like a forced rebuild.  At this point I'm focusing on 2-3 years down the road.  Because so many players had bad years last season, and the new positivity and offensive focus in the management and coaching, and the enthusiasm and speed from the kids, I expect the Flames will rebound and be better than last season, playoffs likely, perhaps even top 3 in the Pacific would not surprise me.  Of course injuries can be devastating, knock on wood, but the key thing this season is bringing along the next wave of Flames stars....

Yes and no... 
I don't think the owners will allow Conroy to sell a player for less than value. They will probably wait until the TDL and get a max value... or else if they are in a playoff spot to say Conroy these players will not be sold.... 

It's usually not the gm's problem with the Flames unfortunately but the owners why it doesn't go beyond a mediocre. 

Although I do hope Conroy can turn this around with his enthusiasm.

"impossible things are done immediately, miracles take a little longer".... This must be the motto for Conroy 😉

[cberg]

8 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I had no issue losing Valimaki for nothing. Most others didn't either. Revisionist history. Sure he can play for ARI, but he was barely a competitive AHL player with us. He didn't deserve a roster spot so was waived. He deserved to be waived and I'd do it again tomorrow. Team cap dump likes him so good for him. I want him to do well but he isn't a loss for us as he was never very good.

Detroit isn't top 5. Take a look at their roster. Johansson is an NHL-ready Dman, Edvinsson is awfully close. Then you have Kasper and Mazur at C and wing. Where are those 4 slotting on that roster?

Would you rather not have that problem of having to make roster moves for them rather than a "leap of faith"? All the while eschewing not wanting to "ruin development". Are we throwing caution to the wind on that now because we need them?

There is a number of low-level contracts(<2mil per) on bonafide NHLers that have been inked this off-season. Us not even thinking about it...for me...I think that's worrisome. Nothing is looking proactive at all when you have so many players entering the last year of contracts. Are we still going to have reactionary mgmt? Because if we wanted change, that's the #1 thing that has to change imo.

Conroy should've signed Suter even if it took 2x$2. Need a 4C. Need a PK C to relieve Lindholm and supplement Backlund. Need a supplemental defensive C so Backlund doesn't have to line-match with the McDavid's alllll game long. Need a stop gap in the case of Backlund leaving.

Yes, Suter is good at all of those things as a 4C or any wing injury you need to cover. And he'll still chip in 15 with shorties. He's not the answer for offence, but he's a very suitable pressure-relief valve to keep your top 6 guys in offensive roles, which shouldn't include Lindholm out on the PK. Now he'll help a principal rival with that.

And here we are again, not being proactive. I could be wrong as Conroy is quasi-new, but it's concerning.

I didn't expect it would end at Oesterle as a 6-7D, which I'm fine with. Clearing out the pro-Sutter guys is fine, adding more pro scouts. But it's pretty clear that he's rolling the same roster back and crossing his fingers.

Yeah I would have liked Pius Suter too, then shipped out Backlund, but Suter may not have wanted to come here?  Who knows.  In any case, if Conroy is unable/unwilling to make trades for whatever reason, I agree with you it looks like same old, same old for our UFAs.  The good thing is we are without 3-4 lower-roster guys who likely(?) will be replaced by hungry, fast, eager kids, as well as more speed with Sharangovich versus Toffoli, and the refocus on creativity and offence via coaching, so it will be a different team.  Finally, the upside of going into this season with 6 UFAs is they will be looking at the serious list of available UFAs for next Summer and playing their hearts out to prove they deserve the money and a good boost in salary, betting on themselves for somewhere next Summer.  Should be an interesting year.  

[cberg]

6 hours ago, conundrumed said:

One of the things that got me was folks saying, "now that Karlsson is off the market...". Well, now it's a retained Petry. But the thing is, neither of those 2 are the same market as Hanifin. Add, Karlsson was always going to Pittsburgh. That was never in doubt and I doubt most teams even gave it a thought. I think Conroy needed to decide on the value of cap space if he wasn't winning a Hanifin trade. Just that cap gets you, say, Suter and Schenn for example. Maybe Mayfield?

But if you don't look beyond return value as potential cap space to try to balance out your team, you're left waiting for something that may never come. You can't change the market. If you won't bother with it, well, you're options aren't great. Everybody knows that he wants out, so your return could potentially diminish further.

I just get a little tired of doublespeak.

"We only want guys that want to be here".

Hanifin: I don't wanna be here.

"Well, I don't like the return values".

Don't let it get public then. Tell the player and agent, "if this gets public, I hope you like Arizona for a year for a bag of pucks. I'm sure that'll help your value next year. DON'T diminish how I can help you".

Yes, sounds good in principle, not so sure in practice.  And yes, enough with the doublespeak....

[cberg]

9 minutes ago, Adrian_Flames_Fan said:

Yes and no... 
I don't think the owners will allow Conroy to sell a player for less than value. They will probably wait until the TDL and get a max value... or else if they are in a playoff spot to say Conroy these players will not be sold.... 

It's usually not the gm's problem with the Flames unfortunately but the owners why it doesn't go beyond a mediocre. 

Although I do hope Conroy can turn this around with his enthusiasm.

"impossible things are done immediately, miracles take a little longer".... This must be the motto for Conroy 😉

Ownership meddling into day-to-day operations is a huge unknown.  That could be controlling everything. Bottom line is we(fans) have limited to no control and it takes two to tango for any trade.  Therefore another reason why my focus would be on our kids, where the team has more control and better chance of greater long-term gain if done right.  

[The_People1]

11 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I had no issue losing Valimaki for nothing. Most others didn't either. Revisionist history. Sure he can play for ARI, but he was barely a competitive AHL player with us. He didn't deserve a roster spot so was waived. He deserved to be waived and I'd do it again tomorrow. Team cap dump likes him so good for him. I want him to do well but he isn't a loss for us as he was never very good.

Detroit isn't top 5. Take a look at their roster. Johansson is an NHL-ready Dman, Edvinsson is awfully close. Then you have Kasper and Mazur at C and wing. Where are those 4 slotting on that roster?

Would you rather not have that problem of having to make roster moves for them rather than a "leap of faith"? All the while eschewing not wanting to "ruin development". Are we throwing caution to the wind on that now because we need them?

There is a number of low-level contracts(<2mil per) on bonafide NHLers that have been inked this off-season. Us not even thinking about it...for me...I think that's worrisome. Nothing is looking proactive at all when you have so many players entering the last year of contracts. Are we still going to have reactionary mgmt? Because if we wanted change, that's the #1 thing that has to change imo.

Conroy should've signed Suter even if it took 2x$2. Need a 4C. Need a PK C to relieve Lindholm and supplement Backlund. Need a supplemental defensive C so Backlund doesn't have to line-match with the McDavid's alllll game long. Need a stop gap in the case of Backlund leaving.

Yes, Suter is good at all of those things as a 4C or any wing injury you need to cover. And he'll still chip in 15 with shorties. He's not the answer for offence, but he's a very suitable pressure-relief valve to keep your top 6 guys in offensive roles, which shouldn't include Lindholm out on the PK. Now he'll help a principal rival with that.

And here we are again, not being proactive. I could be wrong as Conroy is quasi-new, but it's concerning.

I didn't expect it would end at Oesterle as a 6-7D, which I'm fine with. Clearing out the pro-Sutter guys is fine, adding more pro scouts. But it's pretty clear that he's rolling the same roster back and crossing his fingers.

 

Where is the line between handing jobs to the kids VS having a plan?

 

Gilbert and Oesterle are just fillers until one of Poirier, Kuznetsov, or Solovov is ready to take the next step.  That appears to be the plan.  So we clear one or two spots next year for those kids to graduate to the NHL.  Not go acquire 7 NHL veteran D on one way deals and multi-year contracts.

 

Yes I was okay losing Valimaki too but that's aside from the point actually.  You could argue there was a spot open for Valimaki to win and he lost it to Kylington.  But we could've lost Kylington too had we been too aggressive filling every spot with NHL veterans.  But also, the Flames were legit contenders when we lost Valimaki.  We are not this season and shouldn't try to be.  It's okay to leave one spot open at the forward position to see what we get from the kids at training camp.  Sign a PTO or two if we want the competition.

[travel_dude]

So many perspectives in here.  Me likey.  Anyway, I am a little fed up with doing nothing.  I'm not saying that Connie should have done everything by now, but we are not doing anything.  Lindholm may be a lynchpin, but his deal is next summer not today's greatest need.  We can make decisions on him a bit later (before October, but October not a deal breaker if he is signing).  If we know his intent, then we can sell him to the highest bidder.

 

I'm not sure what to do with Hanifin at this point.  We are risking it by trading him before the season starts, but we can't just hold onto him and hope to get a trade done sometime before TDL.  I think we have 6 other D that will prevent us from dropping like a stone in the standings.  What doesn't prevent that is failing to address the scoring and failing to capitalize on expiring contracts.  Are we hoping that all the kids will bring career seasons?  We saw that losing Gaudreau and Tkachuk decreased our scoring by a lot.  The adds didn't quite work out because the finishers weren't there.

 

So what is there to do?  Hanifin should bring back scoring in trade.  Doesn't have to be Nylander.  Backlund has been a trooper for preventing goals, but he is aging out.  If we were to extend him for a couple years at a reasonable cap hit, then the cap savings helps us get better by allowing rising stars to be brought in.  But you aren't getting a couple years of Backlund for that much less.  Tanev is a good thing to hang onto and possibly lose for nothing, since he is a defensive D that can be replaced by something similar.  Or he takes a bit of a cut as an older re-sign.  Zadorov seems like he would stay, so I doubt he gets more than he makes today.  Dube and Kylington are due for breakout seasons, which is good and bad for us, as both will need new deals.  We have Vladar for 2 more years, but Wolf is lined up for this year.

 

Gotta do a few things, so the longer we go the more likely we see a repeat line setup.

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

Where is the line between handing jobs to the kids VS having a plan?

 

Gilbert and Oesterle are just fillers until one of Poirier, Kuznetsov, or Solovov is ready to take the next step.  That appears to be the plan.  So we clear one or two spots next year for those kids to graduate to the NHL.  Not go acquire 7 NHL veteran D on one way deals and multi-year contracts.

 

Yes I was okay losing Valimaki too but that's aside from the point actually.  You could argue there was a spot open for Valimaki to win and he lost it to Kylington.  But we could've lost Kylington too had we been too aggressive filling every spot with NHL veterans.  But also, the Flames were a legit contender last summer.  We are not this season and shouldn't try to be.  It's okay to leave one spot open at the forward position to see what we get from the kids at training camp.  Sign a PTO or two if we want the competition.

 

Other than the tradeoff of Toffoli for Govich, how are we dramatically different this year.  No Lucic/Lewis/Ritchie?  We actually have 6D now that are top 4 capable.  I would argue that we weren't a contender last year and this year is about the same.  Trade Hanifin and Backlund for a top 6 winger and bottom 6 C and we are closer to being one.  It still keeps the competition there to win jobs.  Gilbert is an 8th D right now.  We trade Hanifin and he will be waived if Poirier or Kuz is better.  Doesn't mean he never plays for us, just that the competition is there.  I'm okay with a PTO if we make those trades.  Versteeg type PTO's.  Tartar types.  

[The_People1]

11 hours ago, conundrumed said:

 

Conroy should've signed Suter even if it took 2x$2. Need a 4C. Need a PK C to relieve Lindholm and supplement Backlund. Need a supplemental defensive C so Backlund doesn't have to line-match with the McDavid's alllll game long. Need a stop gap in the case of Backlund leaving.

 

I don't disagree here though.  4th line C should be a PK/shut down specialist who isn't necessarily asked to score.  The 4th line in theory should relieve the rest of the team and allow them to rest while being strong defensively.  Preferably, also be grindy and have sandpaper to make it very uncomfortable for the other team.  Ferland-types are perfect.

 

In regards to McDavid specifically, Kadri did a number on him two years ago.  Between Kadri/Backlund, we should have McDavid contained.  But still, we pay Kadri to score.  We could use a shut down 4C.

 

I hope it's Schwindt or Zary at training camp.

[The_People1]

11 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Other than the tradeoff of Toffoli for Govich, how are we dramatically different this year.  No Lucic/Lewis/Ritchie?  We actually have 6D now that are top 4 capable.  I would argue that we weren't a contender last year and this year is about the same.  Trade Hanifin and Backlund for a top 6 winger and bottom 6 C and we are closer to being one.  It still keeps the competition there to win jobs.  Gilbert is an 8th D right now.  We trade Hanifin and he will be waived if Poirier or Kuz is better.  Doesn't mean he never plays for us, just that the competition is there.  I'm okay with a PTO if we make those trades.  Versteeg type PTO's.  Tartar types.  

 

I don't think a single one of our D prospects are ready this year so no room needs to be made on D.

 

But there's probably a forward or two who could be ready.  Zary and Pospisil are probably closest.  

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I don't think a single one of our D prospects are ready this year so no room needs to be made on D.

 

But there's probably a forward or two who could be ready.  Zary and Pospisil are probably closest.  

 

Trading Hanifin is about getting the best for a valuable asset.  We aren't going to pay him $7M next year.  Not really making room as much as saving money on a competent D corp.  Poirier is a bit young but Valimaki made his debut at a younger age.  Poirier is also more accomplished offesnively than Valimaki was.  And he was a +30 last season, which is no doubt a team stat.  But he's not as much a liability.  I could see 9 games from him for a look-see.  Not if we carry 8D ahead of him.

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, cberg said:

Losing Valimaki was devastating in my view, though I believe his horrendous injury derailed his career start and the Flames lost patience with him and dropped the ball losing him on waivers.  Unfortunate as I believe he has recovered in Arizona and our situation would be far different if we had him pushing for top D minutes... You can't just drop top draft picks for lack of patience or mismanagement in development.... Similar story with Bennett, our highest draft pick ever.  Hopefully the team has taken a new direction and will show more astute development moving forward.  Certainly having the Wranglers and Flames both in Calgary helps....

I think some players play better in the NHL than AHL. The disorganization in play, it is a little more chaotic than the NHL, is too much for some. I think he needed to play with no worries of making mistakes. And some teams are ok with that.
 

Sutter wasn't, he was a no mistakes at all kind of guy. I think they're teachable moments. Sutter ran the team like they'd be going to jail if they did something wrong. Players make more mistakes in that atmosphere. They're no second-guessing EVERYTHING.

[The_People1]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Trading Hanifin is about getting the best for a valuable asset.  We aren't going to pay him $7M next year.  Not really making room as much as saving money on a competent D corp.  Poirier is a bit young but Valimaki made his debut at a younger age.  Poirier is also more accomplished offesnively than Valimaki was.  And he was a +30 last season, which is no doubt a team stat.  But he's not as much a liability.  I could see 9 games from him for a look-see.  Not if we carry 8D ahead of him.

 

No need to rush Poirier.  D usually needs to be 22-years-old before they can succeed at the NHL level.  Poirier is a bit of a smaller player so bulking up more helps.

 

Solovyov might be ready.  He's 23.  But we shall see.  

[robrob74]

43 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Where is the line between handing jobs to the kids VS having a plan?

 

Gilbert and Oesterle are just fillers until one of Poirier, Kuznetsov, or Solovov is ready to take the next step.  That appears to be the plan.  So we clear one or two spots next year for those kids to graduate to the NHL.  Not go acquire 7 NHL veteran D on one way deals and multi-year contracts.

 

Yes I was okay losing Valimaki too but that's aside from the point actually.  You could argue there was a spot open for Valimaki to win and he lost it to Kylington.  But we could've lost Kylington too had we been too aggressive filling every spot with NHL veterans.  But also, the Flames were legit contenders when we lost Valimaki.  We are not this season and shouldn't try to be.  It's okay to leave one spot open at the forward position to see what we get from the kids at training camp.  Sign a PTO or two if we want the competition.

that is the thing, I think the team had career years from so many the year before and everyone felt they were that team. Truth is, they were an inconsistent up and down team that either seemed to win the division or not be in the playoffs. To me that was never a contender. I expected playoffs for sure. 
 

I think the biggest thing that killed Valamaki was confidence. Sutter is a confidence killer if he's not on your side. 
 

I don't think coaches need to blow smoke up butts, but there are constructive ways to criticize. 
 

the way Andersson described Huska is that is his style, communication.