2023/24 Roster/Lines

[Heartbreaker]

4 minutes ago, zima said:

Just one more question how many here thinks Mony will put up more points than Kadri this yr besides me?

 

I doubt it, but I still would have preferred that they hadn't traded Monahan and signed Kadri. He might be just fine at 1.95 per, and the guy bled Flames.

 

Love.

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

I doubt it, but I still would have preferred that they hadn't traded Monahan and signed Kadri. He might be just fine at 1.95 per, and the guy bled Flames.

 

Love.

 

I'm okay with Kadri, but I was annoyed that we had to send a 1st in the process.  Should we not have been able to trade Lucic instead, even if the cost was similar?  Then we have Monahan today and not a UFA that helped little and left for nothing.

 

I know, it's speculating a trade that may not have happened, but we would have likely had a better result last season.  

 

Kadri is polarizing like E. Kane.  Give me Kadri any day over Kane.  I don't like the salary, but when the cap goes up, it won't mean as much.  

[Heartbreaker]

49 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

I'm okay with Kadri, but I was annoyed that we had to send a 1st in the process.  Should we not have been able to trade Lucic instead, even if the cost was similar?  Then we have Monahan today and not a UFA that helped little and left for nothing.

 

I know, it's speculating a trade that may not have happened, but we would have likely had a better result last season.  

 

Kadri is polarizing like E. Kane.  Give me Kadri any day over Kane.  I don't like the salary, but when the cap goes up, it won't mean as much.  

 

Yeah, I mostly agree. I don't have any contempt for Naz at all. I like the player, but I think that contract really hurt us for what he brings. I think he's being paid fairly, and all that, I just think that it wasn't the correct target. Monahan off the books this year, plus an extra first, I think could have played really well. Instead, we have an aging player for seven years without the team around him to go the distance. This core feels suspiciously like the mushy middle, and I think that there are serious cap implications for the foreseeable future.

 

Love.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

Yeah, I mostly agree. I don't have any contempt for Naz at all. I like the player, but I think that contract really hurt us for what he brings. I think he's being paid fairly, and all that, I just think that it wasn't the correct target. Monahan off the books this year, plus an extra first, I think could have played really well. Instead, we have an aging player for seven years without the team around him to go the distance. This core feels suspiciously like the mushy middle, and I think that there are serious cap implications for the foreseeable future.

 

Love.

 

There were other ways around trading Monahan.  It was an easy trade.

Keeping him meant we traded someone else.  

Hindsight I guess, since I didn't love the trade.

I think it's likely we loose this year's pick and have 2 next year.

 

Anyway, what is done is done.

Monahan without Gaudreau may not have worked.

[travel_dude]

I should say that BT did whatever he thought he could do.  We got Lucic instead of buying out Neal, but he wasted millions on Neal in the first place.  Lucic's contract was terrible.  Couldn't be bought out.  I liked what he did for the team in his recent years, but not his scoring.  And not year one of his play.  

 

You want to sign Kadri?  Fine, but make sure you don't have to pay sucker prices to make room.  I even think you could have bought out Monahan with his permission.  I think that is what the CBA suggested.  Could be wrong.

 

Anyway, it's done and so am I.  We don't have the player, the coach or the GM.

Good times, right?

[cross16]

Saying yes to a buyout would have cost Monahan over 2 million dollars. Why would he say yes to that and even if he did do you really think his agent and the PA would let him do it?

 

It was not a good transaction but it's my understanding that BT was under a lot of pressure from ownership to do it. Basically once Gaudreau/Tkachuk left the message was we are not going backwards so they expected another 100 Pt season, so that was the mandate hockey ops was under. If you look at it within that lens Kadri made a lot of sense and the only way to sign Kadri was to move Monahan. Simple math on that one, as Lucic's cap hit simply wasn't enough to fit what Kadri would sign for. 

 

Is it an ideal situation, absolutely not, was it smart business, probably not. But it's the way this organization has worked for a while and I see no reason it's going to change in the future. 

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, zima said:

Just one more question how many here thinks Mony will put up more points than Kadri this yr besides me?

 

I predict,

 

Kadri 22G 27A 49Pts

Monahan 12G 18A 30Pts

[travel_dude]

33 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Saying yes to a buyout would have cost Monahan over 2 million dollars. Why would he say yes to that and even if he did do you really think his agent and the PA would let him do it?

 

It was not a good transaction but it's my understanding that BT was under a lot of pressure from ownership to do it. Basically once Gaudreau/Tkachuk left the message was we are not going backwards so they expected another 100 Pt season, so that was the mandate hockey ops was under. If you look at it within that lens Kadri made a lot of sense and the only way to sign Kadri was to move Monahan. Simple math on that one, as Lucic's cap hit simply wasn't enough to fit what Kadri would sign for. 

 

Is it an ideal situation, absolutely not, was it smart business, probably not. But it's the way this organization has worked for a while and I see no reason it's going to change in the future. 

 

Had we traded Lucic, we wouldn't have signed Rooney.  

The cost tradeoff was equal.

Would have been able to sign Kadri and have at least another C capable of playing on this team.

 

Would a team have been willing to accept Lucic and he okay's the deal is another story.

Lucic was a Sutter player, so BT may not have even gotten past the phone call to owners.

 

I'm glad to have the discussion, but it seems kind of pointless.  Was just reflecting on the trade.

And I do like Kadri on this team.  Shame we didn't get him from Toronto.

Lost Brodie to FA anyway.

 

[cross16]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Had we traded Lucic, we wouldn't have signed Rooney.  

The cost tradeoff was equal.

Would have been able to sign Kadri and have at least another C capable of playing on this team.

 

Would a team have been willing to accept Lucic and he okay's the deal is another story.

Lucic was a Sutter player, so BT may not have even gotten past the phone call to owners.

 

I'm glad to have the discussion, but it seems kind of pointless.  Was just reflecting on the trade.

And I do like Kadri on this team.  Shame we didn't get him from Toronto.

Lost Brodie to FA anyway.

 

 

Weren't related. They wanted a defensive center which Lucic obviously isn't. They just got the player evaluation wrong. 

Also they would have had Rooney on their radar before they knew Gaudreau was leaving and they signed him before Tkachuk left. 

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Weren't related. They wanted a defensive center which Lucic obviously isn't. They just got the player evaluation wrong. 

Also they would have had Rooney on their radar before they knew Gaudreau was leaving and they signed him before Tkachuk left. 

 

I was merely talking about how you could do it while losing less talent.  If Rooney was on their radar, they needed to fix the radar.  Signing him after losing Gaudreau looks like a panic move to sign anybody.  And maybe that was the last straw for Tkachuk.  

 

[bosn111]

The signing of Rooney, as Cross said, was not at all related to Gaudreau leaving, and likely had nothing to do with Tkachuk leaving either. He was signed to compete for the 4th line. He was simply another body in the 4th line merry go round of the past decade. We’re there better options? Probably, but doesn’t mean they wanted to play for the Flames.

 

Tkachuk said outright that he had been thinking of asking for the trade all of the previous season, maybe even longer. He didn’t like being told by Giordano to simmer down, and the coaching style of Sutter likely rubbed him wrong. Add in the microscope he was under in Calgary. He is an ideal player for Florida. Lifestyle, relative anonymity, less pressure. All he needs to do is play and after the game he can do whatever he wants.

 

Greer is finally the 4th liner the Flames have been missing, Duehr should work well also. Ruzicka could help that line work well, even if he isn’t ideal for the role.

 

Was Rooney the right signing? No, but someone thought he could be with the right coach. Didn’t work out, but was a relatively low cost failure.

[zima]

21 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

There were other ways around trading Monahan.  It was an easy trade.

Keeping him meant we traded someone else.  

Hindsight I guess, since I didn't love the trade.

I think it's likely we loose this year's pick and have 2 next year.

 

Anyway, what is done is done.

Monahan without Gaudreau may not have worked.

Could we not have put him on waivers? 

[travel_dude]

15 minutes ago, zima said:

Could we not have put him on waivers? 

 

Lucic?  Nope.  He was on a No Move contract.  Can't waive.  Can't trade without his permission.

[cross16]

Placing a player on waivers also does nothing in terms of their cap hit, you'd only lose the cap hit if another team claims him (which wasn't happening in the case of Monahan of Lucic) or your bury them in the minors. You can't do that with Lucic and even if you wanted to with Monahan you don't get full relief anymore and they would have been stuck with a 1.1 cap hit which again means they woudln't have been able to afford Kadri. 

 

I get he isn't everyone's favorite person or GM but Treliving worked extremely hard and diligently on his trades. I think it's a little foolish to think that he had other options to sign Kadri and just said "nah i'm gonna get rid of this 1st round pick". 

 

If you want to criticize or questions the need to sign Kadri that makes perfect sense (keep in mind the likely mandate though) but once the decision was made to sign him it played out how it needed to. 

 

 

[conundrumed]

tinker tinker tinker...

 

[travel_dude]

7 hours ago, conundrumed said:

tinker tinker tinker...

 

 

I'm not exactly sure what happened with the top line, but the cahnge was made and somehow it worked for the GWG.  I might just be Dube being a passer on RW.  Dunno.  I saw a lot of Mangiapane falling down mid play, so I don't know how that shook out.

 

I do like returning to Ruzicka on LW with Kadri and Nato.  They worked well in pre-season.  Govich on the 4th line though?  He is definately a good defensive player, but not sure this is a good use.

 

Gilbert getting reps?  Oesterle had a rough night but I don't know he was the only problem.

[cross16]

A bit surprised Dube is off there so fast but at the same time Mang was excellent on Wednesday and they've been experimenting with him up there too. 

 

I prefer the idea of Dube because I think in order to thrive Hubie-Lindy need someone who likes to carry the puck.  Mang's forecheck ability though, as seen on the GWG, is a boost too. 

 

So it's a bit of a dice roll to see what ends up happening and I won't be surprised to see it change from game to game. 

[travel_dude]

42 minutes ago, cross16 said:

A bit surprised Dube is off there so fast but at the same time Mang was excellent on Wednesday and they've been experimenting with him up there too. 

 

I prefer the idea of Dube because I think in order to thrive Hubie-Lindy need someone who likes to carry the puck.  Mang's forecheck ability though, as seen on the GWG, is a boost too. 

 

So it's a bit of a dice roll to see what ends up happening and I won't be surprised to see it change from game to game. 

 

Or in game.  I like Dube on RW more than Mange and definitely more than moving Huuberdeau to RW to help.  Perhaps it's just practice but they likely want to see if it was just luck or typical of the chemistry.

[robrob74]

22 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Or in game.  I like Dube on RW more than Mange and definitely more than moving Huuberdeau to RW to help.  Perhaps it's just practice but they likely want to see if it was just luck or typical of the chemistry.

 

Sometimes throwing a guy out there changes the dynamic enough to throw off the defence. It works sometimes, and it seemed to the other night. I also wonder if it makes a player simplify a bit as things are different. 

[MP5029]

On 10/12/2023 at 6:15 PM, conundrumed said:

tinker tinker tinker...

 

This again, the blender of we don’t know our players…we just did this before Sutter!

 

Kadri is frustrating, cause it seems they don’t know who to put with him, they seem be trying to force chemistry with particular players…

 

so far there are 2 line combinations that are looking to be solid and I’m not

sure why they are messing around…

 

1. Hubby/Lindholm/Coronato

2. Manji/Backlund/Coleman

 

we know the Manji/BacklundColeman line is reliable why not go back to this?

 

Hubby and Coronato seem

to click on the PP why not put them together with Lindholm? 
 

it seems that are trying for force chemistry with Kadri and have promised some guys top 2 line mins…this is clearly not working out…go with what we know works so far…

 

also what’s the deal with Shar…thought they marketed him to be paired on the top line as a fit with Hubby…I’m not sure they have even tried that yet including training camp, he’s another insurance option should Coronato not work out I would think.

 

back to Kadri and Shar…if they are determined to use Shar at Ctr…why not slide Kadri to RW…I still think Kadri would excel on the wing, he’s just not a great Ctr and a huge liability in the F-O dot…which also seems to be a huge hole still since Monahan…Lindholm is good, Backlund is a bit better but we have no one nearly as good as Monahan was he’s one of the more elite Ctrs for FO’s or at least was and that’s a huge problem they have never manage to fix with this blender system of plugging holes…

 

they need to figure things out here soon but they need some stability fast and figuring out those two lines would be a huge start…the Manji/Backlund/Coleman line there is nothing to figure out but they need to figure out either Coronato or Shar on the RW and fast so they can figure out who fits for Kadri…he’s looking to be the X factor in terms of who has chemistry with him…Ruzicka, Dube, Shar , Dehur Coronato…and one of those are needed to be RW with Hubby/Lindy 

 

if I were a betting man I’d try:

 

Hubby/Lindholm/Coronato 

Ruzicka/Shar/Kadri

manji/Backlund/Coleman 

Greer/Dube/Dhur

 

Basically if they can get 2 solid lines to start then play around with line 2 and 4 and figure out who fits where with who..

[travel_dude]

^^^^^

It's difficult to remove a bona fide top 9 player because you have another one playing on the 4th line.  Unfortunately, you are burning his confidence by doing it.  He needs to contribute.  Nothing wrong with Duehr, but overall the line is being reduced to a grind line.  I'm not super impressed with Greer, but he's not shown any worse than Hunt.  The other thing is you don't really worry about with the 4th line is getting overwhelmed.  They have some weaknesses but not like putting out Lucic.

 

Dube has not been a problem in the top 6.  I don't like Mange on RW.

[JTech780]

I would like to see Sharangovich be given more time on the top line, push him to be more aggressive at driving the net or getting to spots to use that release. I also don't like Lindholm with Huberdeau, I would go with Backlund there. I think Huberdeau is best when he is passing to guys on their one time side aka left shots.

 

Huberdeau/Backlund/Shargovich

 

On the other top 6 line I would go Ruzicka on the left side with Lindholm and Coronato. Ruzicka has underrated playmaking abilty, but puck retrival isn't his strong suit. With Lindholm and Coronato you have two shooters and two guys who can go get the puck.

 

Ruzicka/Lindholm/Coronato

 

Mangiapane, Kadri and Dube are all tenacious on the puck and all are a pain to play against. 

 

Magngiapane/Kadri/Dube

 

This is where things get tricky as Greer and Duehr have given you everything you could want on the 4th line, but they don't play center. Coleman is a wingerand hasn't really played center since he was with NJ, but that's where I would try and shoe horn him into this lineup.

 

Greer/Coleman/Duehr

 

 

 

 

 

[travel_dude]

18 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

I would like to see Sharangovich be given more time on the top line, push him to be more aggressive at driving the net or getting to spots to use that release. I also don't like Lindholm with Huberdeau, I would go with Backlund there. I think Huberdeau is best when he is passing to guys on their one time side aka left shots.

 

Huberdeau/Backlund/Shargovich

 

On the other top 6 line I would go Ruzicka on the left side with Lindholm and Coronato. Ruzicka has underrated playmaking abilty, but puck retrival isn't his strong suit. With Lindholm and Coronato you have two shooters and two guys who can go get the puck.

 

Ruzicka/Lindholm/Coronato

 

Mangiapane, Kadri and Dube are all tenacious on the puck and all are a pain to play against. 

 

Magngiapane/Kadri/Dube

 

This is where things get tricky as Greer and Duehr have given you everything you could want on the 4th line, but they don't play center. Coleman is a wingerand hasn't really played center since he was with NJ, but that's where I would try and shoe horn him into this lineup.

 

Greer/Coleman/Duehr

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not bad suggestions.  I agree that perhaps Coleman is probably the best to use on the 4th line of all the other top 9 players.  I would possibly caution the using of Huberdeau with Backlund, but it's better than with Kadri.  Backlund is good on transition, but I would hate to see 75% of Huberdeau's usage in a defensive posture.  I know that's not the zone start numbers, but it is how Backlund is mostly deployed.  

 

Honestly, with Kadri I don't remember his usage with Mange and Dube from last year.  I'm assuming that he should pass more and shoot less.  Paired with Ruzicka, Kadri is shooting more.  I prefer that he pass more and get in down low or as a 2nd chance tap in guy.  Create havoc.  Draw penalties from the D.  Let the shooters shoot.

 

Govich is really the one standing out as in the wrong position.  Current lines could still work, but a change could also work faster.

[conundrumed]

Watching Rango early preseason, he was always trying to keep the puck moving quickly in the o-zone, imo. Remember the 1st preseason game? The puck was moving all over and we blew Van's b squad right out. We haven't done that since. I don't understand. We're back to slow af moving the puck around. Why is this a hard concept?

It all amounts to just low skill to me. That, and holy Blockchain, demote Kadri to 4th line. Don't give him PP time. Maybe he'll come around. He's playing like a giant waste of time. Got a contract, I'm good. Wtf?

Mangiapane is not a 1st liner, he's consistent as a 3rd. Keep Dube up on 1st, put Rango with Kadri, put Coronato with Backlund and Coleman can prop up the 4th line with Duehr and Rosie.

When's Pelletier back? JFC this roster. Thanks BT. So effing fragmented and buried in contracts.

No wonder he ran away from his mess. I don't give a Satoshi Nakamoto what his M.O. was, does he not have a spine? It's your team man, "just following orders" means that you don't have a spine. Accountability is on him, but he ran away.

[travel_dude]

47 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Watching Rango early preseason, he was always trying to keep the puck moving quickly in the o-zone, imo. Remember the 1st preseason game? The puck was moving all over and we blew Van's b squad right out. We haven't done that since. I don't understand. We're back to slow af moving the puck around. Why is this a hard concept?

It all amounts to just low skill to me. That, and holy Blockchain, demote Kadri to 4th line. Don't give him PP time. Maybe he'll come around. He's playing like a giant waste of time. Got a contract, I'm good. Wtf?

Mangiapane is not a 1st liner, he's consistent as a 3rd. Keep Dube up on 1st, put Rango with Kadri, put Coronato with Backlund and Coleman can prop up the 4th line with Duehr and Rosie.

When's Pelletier back? JFC this roster. Thanks BT. So effing fragmented and buried in contracts.

No wonder he ran away from his mess. I don't give a Satoshi Nakamoto what his M.O. was, does he not have a spine? It's your team man, "just following orders" means that you don't have a spine. Accountability is on him, but he ran away.

 

The PP looks like a carbon copy of last year.  Coronato scored on the place you want to see shots from.  Instead we are passing it around from the D to the boards to the D to the other boards.  Guy walks in and passes it back to the D.  All the other team has to do is overload one side and we can't get it out of there.  A 2 footer pass to another guy in coverage.  

 

Your suggestion with Govich is fine, but who is the other winger?  Rosie has been one of the few consistent players and you want him on the 4th line?  Hunt and Greer the only other names we have right now.

 

I don't know how we get Pelletier into the lineup with this group.  Perhaps on the 4th line?  He's a long ways from ready to play though.