2022 Offseason

[conundrumed]

I see zero chance of adding Barzal. Other teams can offer a lot better than I'm seeing here.

Pelech

Romanov

Aho

Bolduc coming up...hardly screams Hanifin is a need.

Pageau, Palmeiri, Beauvillier to lose makes more sense. The first 2 have 16 team NTC contracts.

I'd do Pageau if they just need a salary dump. But that NTC....

I'm sure Lou will figure it out. Kadri isn't worth huge money and term. Hence why no one threw it at him.

[LouCifer]

19 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I see zero chance of adding Barzal. Other teams can offer a lot better than I'm seeing here.

Pelech

Romanov

Aho

Bolduc coming up...hardly screams Hanifin is a need.

Pageau, Palmeiri, Beauvillier to lose makes more sense. The first 2 have 16 team NTC contracts.

I'd do Pageau if they just need a salary dump. But that NTC....

I'm sure Lou will figure it out. Kadri isn't worth huge money and term. Hence why no one threw it at him.

What I will say about Lou (I can vouch since I am one lol) is that he is loyal to past players. See Palmieri, parise, etc… Lou had Kadri in Toronto. There is no doubt in my mind that Lou wants him, and Lou doesn’t give a flying fart how old Kadri is. 
 

That said, I am interested to see how everything plays out for NYI. I shared my hunches and we’ll see where everything lands. 😁

[conundrumed]

21 hours ago, pikey7883 said:

That sounds very much like a Stevie Y move, shore up C with Larkin and Barzal. He’s already got the beasts on d. And goalie seems under control for a long time. 

Yeah I doubt it. Barzal's a great C, but I just can't see it. Detroit can just wait on their futures. Need to extend Larkin and they're only a year or 2 from being a great young team. Buddy mentioned Edvinsson, that's a great big whatever.

When Sebrango is behind Edvinsson, Johansson, Wallinder, Viro, Buium and probably McIsaac in D prospect depth, we can probably wait. The C prospect depth is thin, but that can be corrected without moving the top 3, likely 4 D prospects.

[jjgallow]

On 8/5/2022 at 10:36 AM, The_People1 said:

 

I meant the signing in isolation hurts the team long term.  35+ player making $10.5-mil isn't ideal.  It would have been a much more daring move to trade Huberdeau for more picks and prospects to kick start a rebuild.  It would surely help accelerate it and create a better long term vision for the team.

 

With the amount of inflation going on maybe this will all turn out lol.

 

I don't like the signing.   But I prefer it to him not being signed.    

 

In theory I would have preferred a trade for picks, but, they had a chance to do that instead of trading for Huberdeau and didn't go for it.   I think once you have Huberdeau, at a term of 1 year, the ability to trade him for full value is not there.

 

I can't help but wonder....what is his trade value now, with the contract?   I would think higher, but only a little higher because the contract is so damn huge.   Curious what would happen if we traded him, and say, ate some of the salary.  And if that would count against our cap.

 

Not that we will, the path is very clear at this point.

[cross16]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

I see zero chance of adding Barzal. Other teams can offer a lot better than I'm seeing here.

Pelech

Romanov

Aho

Bolduc coming up...hardly screams Hanifin is a need.

Pageau, Palmeiri, Beauvillier to lose makes more sense. The first 2 have 16 team NTC contracts.

I'd do Pageau if they just need a salary dump. But that NTC....

I'm sure Lou will figure it out. Kadri isn't worth huge money and term. Hence why no one threw it at him.

on top of that I think the Flames would have to choose between Barzal and Lindholm. I don’t see it being realistic to keep Huberdeau, Lindholm,Barzal, Weegar etc. your taking about committing around 50 million in 7 players (Hubs,Lindy,Barzal, Weegar,Anderson,Markstrom,Coleman). Not realistic imo and while I think Barzal is the better player dealing Lindholm for him still doesn’t address the center depth issue so your going to have the same issue just minus all the assets you used to trade for Barzal. 
 

I don’t see Barzal as viable. 

[travel_dude]

11 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

With the amount of inflation going on maybe this will all turn out lol.

 

I don't like the signing.   But I prefer it to him not being signed.    

 

In theory I would have preferred a trade for picks, but, they had a chance to do that instead of trading for Huberdeau and didn't go for it.   I think once you have Huberdeau, at a term of 1 year, the ability to trade him for full value is not there.

 

I can't help but wonder....what is his trade value now, with the contract?   I would think higher, but only a little higher because the contract is so damn huge.   Curious what would happen if we traded him, and say, ate some of the salary.  And if that would count against our cap.

 

Not that we will, the path is very clear at this point.

 

Did you hear of some offer that was picks and prospects only?  I only hear of two offers once Tkachuk decided to move, and they were actually incomplete or disputed.  

STL - Tarasenko + Scandela

This was disputed, so we don't even know if this was even close to true.

 

CAR - Necas + ??

What was included in that?  No info shared.

 

As far as future value, right now he is worth 12.7% of cap.  As the cap goes up, the cost of a 115 point player goes up.  Assuming he stays at that level.  But the point is, you make the best of what you have.  We can't let a guy walk that we were planning on having for 8 years (Gaudreau) and only commit 6 years to the replacement for.  Tkachuk was going to be in his 30's when 8 years is done. 

 

Point of all this is that it's fine to lock up older guys as we have to integrate younger guys and maintain the level of play, or we are just rebuilding.        

[conundrumed]

8 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Did you hear of some offer that was picks and prospects only?  I only hear of two offers once Tkachuk decided to move, and they were actually incomplete or disputed.  

STL - Tarasenko + Scandela

This was disputed, so we don't even know if this was even close to true.

 

CAR - Necas + ??

What was included in that?  No info shared.

 

As far as future value, right now he is worth 12.7% of cap.  As the cap goes up, the cost of a 115 point player goes up.  Assuming he stays at that level.  But the point is, you make the best of what you have.  We can't let a guy walk that we were planning on having for 8 years (Gaudreau) and only commit 6 years to the replacement for.  Tkachuk was going to be in his 30's when 8 years is done. 

 

Point of all this is that it's fine to lock up older guys as we have to integrate younger guys and maintain the level of play, or we are just rebuilding.        

I'm not sure what the fascination is with putting us in the gutter for 5 years and crossing our fingers.lol

[travel_dude]

31 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I'm not sure what the fascination is with putting us in the gutter for 5 years and crossing our fingers.lol

 

Gutter, basement, tanking are all talk for the Blow it Up thread.  

[conundrumed]

Is it realistic to think Lindholm, Backlund, Mony & Rooney is enough C depth. Or that Dube can push the C/RW depth?

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Is it realistic to think Lindholm, Backlund, Mony & Rooney is enough C depth. Or that Dube can push the C/RW depth?

 

In my opinion, no to both.

Backlund is a great shutdown C and will be that way for some time, not sure if it's years or year.

Monahan is a risky 3C option, only because we just don't know.

Rooney is a bit of unknown, only because he hasn't played with out 4th line.

 

I think that if you want to be a contender, you need two scoring lines, one shutdown line and one line you can put out there and not worry about being scored on.  We don't have the C depth to be in that position.  A 30 goal Monahan with a playmaker is possible, but we haven't seen that level in quite some time, injuries not withstanding.  First half Lucic and Lewis with Rooney could be the not scored upon line, but we saw 2nd half Lucic a lot more.

 

So, my desire is to go after a scoring or playmaking C.  Barzal was always a pipedream.  There are others that are more affordable.  Vegas seems to be hell bent on trading players to satisfy the cost of new toys and guys that deserve some consideration for keeping.  Roy may not be a shiny toy, but I don't think they sign him to 5 years just to trade him for cap space.  Karlsson may be the next one dealt.  I'm not sure we should consider trading for him, but I might consider a depth D for him.  He's signed for 5 more years, but not at an unreasonable cost.  26 goals in the last 2 seasons may not be looked on as value.  He does have speed and really had little healthy players helping him last season though.

 

I do think Dube would be better at C instead of RW, but I don't think Sutter agrees.  In fact, I think he was used more as much at LW as RW, once we got Toffoli and really after Jarnkrok came.

[Thebrewcrew]

43 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Is it realistic to think Lindholm, Backlund, Mony & Rooney is enough C depth. Or that Dube can push the C/RW depth?

I’ve had a similar thought . I think C depth has to be a real concern.

 

What happens if Lindholm or Backlund get hurt? Monahan/Ruzicka or even Dube would have to step up

[cross16]

59 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Is it realistic to think Lindholm, Backlund, Mony & Rooney is enough C depth. Or that Dube can push the C/RW depth?

not imo. 
 

flames need to add a legit number 1 or they need to add a playmaking top 6 center. Ideally a pass first/transition style center. Dube is good at carrying the puck but I think he lacks the awareness to be a center. 
 

as it stands right now I’m not a believer the flames can do much with their center depth. It’s going to hold them back as it did last year. 

[LouCifer]

 

Barzal 👀

[LouCifer]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Is it realistic to think Lindholm, Backlund, Mony & Rooney is enough C depth. Or that Dube can push the C/RW depth?

 

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

In my opinion, no to both.

Backlund is a great shutdown C and will be that way for some time, not sure if it's years or year.

Monahan is a risky 3C option, only because we just don't know.

Rooney is a bit of unknown, only because he hasn't played with out 4th line.

 

I think that if you want to be a contender, you need two scoring lines, one shutdown line and one line you can put out there and not worry about being scored on.  We don't have the C depth to be in that position.  A 30 goal Monahan with a playmaker is possible, but we haven't seen that level in quite some time, injuries not withstanding.  First half Lucic and Lewis with Rooney could be the not scored upon line, but we saw 2nd half Lucic a lot more.

 

So, my desire is to go after a scoring or playmaking C.  Barzal was always a pipedream.  There are others that are more affordable.  Vegas seems to be hell bent on trading players to satisfy the cost of new toys and guys that deserve some consideration for keeping.  Roy may not be a shiny toy, but I don't think they sign him to 5 years just to trade him for cap space.  Karlsson may be the next one dealt.  I'm not sure we should consider trading for him, but I might consider a depth D for him.  He's signed for 5 more years, but not at an unreasonable cost.  26 goals in the last 2 seasons may not be looked on as value.  He does have speed and really had little healthy players helping him last season though.

 

I do think Dube would be better at C instead of RW, but I don't think Sutter agrees.  In fact, I think he was used more as much at LW as RW, once we got Toffoli and really after Jarnkrok came.

 

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I’ve had a similar thought . I think C depth has to be a real concern.

 

What happens if Lindholm or Backlund get hurt? Monahan/Ruzicka or even Dube would have to step up

 

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

not imo. 
 

flames need to add a legit number 1 or they need to add a playmaking top 6 center. Ideally a pass first/transition style center. Dube is good at carrying the puck but I think he lacks the awareness to be a center. 
 

as it stands right now I’m not a believer the flames can do much with their center depth. It’s going to hold them back as it did last year. 

See the post above lol 😂

 

Barzal is a play-making C. He will circle the offensive zone and stick handle through defenders over and over, waiting for someone to get open for a snipe. Barzal won’t be getting $10.5M AAV to be our #2C behind Lindholm. I don’t subscribe to worrying about our cap space right now because 80% of our team’s contracts are up between this year and next. 

[travel_dude]

14 minutes ago, LouCifer said:

See the post above lol 😂

 

Barzal is a play-making C. He will circle the offensive zone and stick handle through defenders over and over, waiting for someone to get open for a snipe. Barzal won’t be getting $10.5M AAV to be our #2C behind Lindholm. I don’t subscribe to worrying about our cap space right now because 80% of our team’s contracts are up between this year and next. 

 

I don't think we have to worry about cap without understanding the full picture.  Saying that, I think we can find value without completely stripping our future.  Barzal is stripping the future.  Maybe that is the right approach, but we have to look at the overall cost.

 

There are opportunities to underpay to improve the team.  Let's exhaust that search before we overpay.

[robrob74]

5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I see zero chance of adding Barzal. Other teams can offer a lot better than I'm seeing here.

Pelech

Romanov

Aho

Bolduc coming up...hardly screams Hanifin is a need.

Pageau, Palmeiri, Beauvillier to lose makes more sense. The first 2 have 16 team NTC contracts.

I'd do Pageau if they just need a salary dump. But that NTC....

I'm sure Lou will figure it out. Kadri isn't worth huge money and term. Hence why no one threw it at him.

 

we tend to dream big. I kind of want a good middle 6 player that can step up or if surrounded by good players can provide depth. I think we had depth last year, just the wrong kind of depth. BT tried. I was excited but also worried like cross that the playmaker was missing. I was hoping Jarnkrok could provide an assist or a few extra, not what he is though I guess. 
 

but I envision someone who can play 3rd line at about 3-4m per. 

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

we tend to dream big. I kind of want a good middle 6 player that can step up or if surrounded by good players can provide depth. I think we had depth last year, just the wrong kind of depth. BT tried. I was excited but also worried like cross that the playmaker was missing. I was hoping Jarnkrok could provide an assist or a few extra, not what he is though I guess. 
 

but I envision someone who can play 3rd line at about 3-4m per. 

 

How's about Valimaki for Karlsson?

More expensive than what you suggest, but more of a top 6 C.

Might not work directly one for one (cap remaining here), but it's about what Vegas should expect.

Maybe it's more like Dube for Karlsson, but I feel like that is overpay for a cap dump.

Right now, any Vegas player that isn't their best players is a cap dump.

[robrob74]

21 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't think we have to worry about cap without understanding the full picture.  Saying that, I think we can find value without completely stripping our future.  Barzal is stripping the future.  Maybe that is the right approach, but we have to look at the overall cost.

 

There are opportunities to underpay to improve the team.  Let's exhaust that search before we overpay.

 

since we aren't rebuilding, and if we have support pieces in place, I think we can mortgage up to two drafts from now. Anything later is what we might want to start replacing Huberdeau and a "Barzal." I don't know how much of current prospects can be sent, but if you believe you have something in them and can only use picks, maybe it's doable. Of course money has to go out. Teams want prospects, but it's all in for the next 2-3 years.

[The_People1]

54 minutes ago, LouCifer said:

 

Barzal 👀

 

Will Lamoriello announce this signing on the first day of training camp?

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

 

since we aren't rebuilding, and if we have support pieces in place, I think we can mortgage up to two drafts from now. Anything later is what we might want to start replacing Huberdeau and a "Barzal." I don't know how much of current prospects can be sent, but if you believe you have something in them and can only use picks, maybe it's doable. Of course money has to go out. Teams want prospects, but it's all in for the next 2-3 years.

 

Barzal is much more than a 3 year plan, but I get your point.  I do not really envision a trade with NYI that works for both teams.  They lose Barzal, they want a 1C back.  We can include  bunch of 1sts but I can't see anything other than Lindy that would do it.  I wouldn't do Lindy + anything for Barzal.  

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

not imo. 
 

flames need to add a legit number 1 or they need to add a playmaking top 6 center. Ideally a pass first/transition style center. Dube is good at carrying the puck but I think he lacks the awareness to be a center. 
 

as it stands right now I’m not a believer the flames can do much with their center depth. It’s going to hold them back as it did last year. 

 

Center is so important that if we can extend Weegar long term, then we should consider moving Andersson for a Barzal-level Center.  I think Anderson's trade value is huge enough to land that quality of Center.  RHS RD top pair.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Will Lamoriello announce this signing on the first day of training camp?

 

I suspect Lou wants to wait till he makes a trade before signing him.  

Deal while you are not over cap.

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

Barzal is much more than a 3 year plan, but I get your point.  I do not really envision a trade with NYI that works for both teams.  They lose Barzal, they want a 1C back.  We can include  bunch of 1sts but I can't see anything other than Lindy that would do it.  I wouldn't do Lindy + anything for Barzal.  

i put Barzal in quotes because I don't see that happening so it's another unknown player. 

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

Center is so important that if we can extend Weegar long term, then we should consider moving Andersson for a Barzal-level Center.  I think Anderson's trade value is huge enough to land that quality of Center.  RHS RD top pair.

 

I get what you are doing, but we get rid of a cost controlled player and keep the lesser, who will be UFA in 2 years.  

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

I suspect Lou wants to wait till he makes a trade before signing him.  

Deal while you are not over cap.

 

are there other options there to pick from?