UFA 2020, Who’d You Sign?

[Thebrewcrew]

I think Pietrangelo is better than Doughty and Karlsson, al 3 are the same age. I think Pietrangelo will come cheaper than either too. 

 

Lots of Flames fans thought the Gio deal was going to age poorly, it's not over yet, but with 2 seasons remaining, I think the Flames have to be happy with that deal. I know Pietrangelo will cost more, but I think you get 5 or 6 solid seasons out of him.

 

I don't think he signs here, but given the Flames cap situation, they might be in the mix longer than in a normal year.

 

VGK and TOR are probably the top 2 on hist list. VGK needs to move Fluery/Stastny/Holden and one of Marchessault/Smith. A ton of money to move in a flat cap world.

TOR needs to move Johnsson/Kerfoot/Dermott and maybe Holl to make it work.

I've said this a lot, but the Flames could sign him without having to move a handful of guys out the door, that could be advantageous for them.

 

There's also the fact his agency is Newport, they also represent Tkachuk, Lindholm and Monahan

[travel_dude]

45 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

If Pietrangelo turned down 8x8 from the Blues and is looking for buyout protection and a NMC, makes me a little leary about signing him. He is great player, but his contract is going to be an albatross on the back half.

 

Let's just keep our names in there long enough to ramp up the price.

 

I don't have the same worry about the first 5 years of his deal.

Give him NMC for the first 4 years.

Make it a full 7 year deal.

By rights we should be exposing Gio anyway.

AP, Ras and Hanifin get protected.

No big deal.

I think if you kept the pay constant, it would reduce the likelyhood of a buyout.

BT tends to structure that way anyhow.

 

Talking about AP in general, I think he will easily reach 36 before you notice much of letdown, if at all.

 

[robrob74]

In terms of elite D, who can we compare to and how durable have they been?

 

Weber, old but still good.

Karlson, aging but had horrible injuries.

Chara, playing late in career with little decline aside for the last few years...

 

any others come to mind? 

[JTech780]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't have the same worry about the first 5 years of his deal.

Give him NMC for the first 4 years.

Make it a full 7 year deal.

By rights we should be exposing Gio anyway.

AP, Ras and Hanifin get protected.

No big deal.

I think if you kept the pay constant, it would reduce the likelyhood of a buyout.

BT tends to structure that way anyhow.

 

Talking about AP in general, I think he will easily reach 36 before you notice much of letdown, if at all.

 

 

Part of the breakdown with the Blues was that he wanted at least a $9m AAV and he wanted it backloaded, so that he was making more in the last few years of his deal.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

 

Part of the breakdown with the Blues was that he wanted at least a $9m AAV and he wanted it backloaded, so that he was making more in the last few years of his deal.

 

Sort of the opposite of Lucic, who also has a bulletproof contract for buyouts.

STL has a tough GM to negotiate with.

Doesn't sound like they are even that close.

 

On another note, was there someting new in the CBA about the year to year change?

I think the first to last still had to be less than or equal to 50%, but that might have changed too.

[cross16]

13 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I think Pietrangelo is better than Doughty and Karlsson, al 3 are the same age. I think Pietrangelo will come cheaper than either too. 

 

Lots of Flames fans thought the Gio deal was going to age poorly, it's not over yet, but with 2 seasons remaining, I think the Flames have to be happy with that deal. I know Pietrangelo will cost more, but I think you get 5 or 6 solid seasons out of him.

 

I don't think he signs here, but given the Flames cap situation, they might be in the mix longer than in a normal year.

 

VGK and TOR are probably the top 2 on hist list. VGK needs to move Fluery/Stastny/Holden and one of Marchessault/Smith. A ton of money to move in a flat cap world.

TOR needs to move Johnsson/Kerfoot/Dermott and maybe Holl to make it work.

I've said this a lot, but the Flames could sign him without having to move a handful of guys out the door, that could be advantageous for them.

 

There's also the fact his agency is Newport, they also represent Tkachuk, Lindholm and Monahan

 

While I get the Gio comparison the reason i'm a little more leery with the situation than that one is the cap. The cap has jumped almost 20% since Gio signed that deal and with them committing to a flat cap for the next few seasons and escrow being such a sticking point for the players I really question we'll see that 20% jump over the duration of his deal. if the Cap was at say 75 mill right now I think our complaints about Gio's deal would be louder. 

 

But i agree with the rest and I think they will have a shot, will make a pitch and probably be heard because they do have the cap space to pitch him and part of the pitch doesn't need to include who they plan to move to make him fit. One of the Blue's insiders did mention he does feel Pietragnelo is open to FA in part because he'd be excited to be on a team that has some younger skill, as opposed to the more aging Blues and the Flames can offer him that. 

 

Lebrun clarified in an article today that he knows that the Flames are discussing Pietrangelo internally but does not know if they plan to make a formal pitch or if his camp will even hear it.

[JTech780]

What makes me nervous with Pietrangelo is the term and AAV combined with the NMC and backloaded contract. 

I do wonder if Armstrong would do a sign and trade with Pietrangelo so he can get an asset for him. It would also allow Pietrangelo to get an 8th year on the deal. If there is a GM out there that would do it, I think Armstrong is the guy to do it. The question would be, will it cost a 3rd or 2nd to do the sign and trade.

[robrob74]

https://www.tsn.ca/tsn-hockey-draft-primer-calgary-flames-1.1526291

 

 

They start the video off saying how the Flames have used only 15 selections in the past 3 drafts. The future isn't great for the Flames. We don't have any higher end prospects, aside from Pelletier, but the rest really are wildcards and are just prospects until they push for a spot. This is why I think we have to sign a goalie in UFA instead of trading for one. The lack of first round picks in the last (how many?) drafts is really concerning. It's going back to the Sutter days of managing the team. It's handicapping the future for today. 

 

We need to sign a goalie in UFA (and I'd prefer they just sign Talbot if they go the trade route). They could probably still get Pietro done if they decide to go. 

 

Are they looking at getting a pick back in a Gaudreau or Monahan deal? I feel like their worth is higher at a TDL because teams are going all in for a cup. 

[cross16]

7 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

What makes me nervous with Pietrangelo is the term and AAV combined with the NMC and backloaded contract. 

I do wonder if Armstrong would do a sign and trade with Pietrangelo so he can get an asset for him. It would also allow Pietrangelo to get an 8th year on the deal. If there is a GM out there that would do it, I think Armstrong is the guy to do it. The question would be, will it cost a 3rd or 2nd to do the sign and trade.

 

Lebrun's article in the athletic was mentioning this scenario, the sign and trade. he feels the Blues won't do it unless there is value there and he figures they would want at least a 2nd or maybe even a prospect/roster player. Seemed to suggest it won't be something as simple as a mid round pick. 

 

But I agree if you want Pietrangelo the sign and trade is the way to go. It sound like 8X8 wasn't a terrible offer just the structure of it needed work and I could live with that contract. I'm not as concerned about back loading the deal as the Flames revenue situation should only improve with the new arena coming. 

[Sarasti]

18 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Lebrun's article in the athletic was mentioning this scenario, the sign and trade. he feels the Blues won't do it unless there is value there and he figures they would want at least a 2nd or maybe even a prospect/roster player. Seemed to suggest it won't be something as simple as a mid round pick. 

 

But I agree if you want Pietrangelo the sign and trade is the way to go. It sound like 8X8 wasn't a terrible offer just the structure of it needed work and I could live with that contract. I'm not as concerned about back loading the deal as the Flames revenue situation should only improve with the new arena coming. 

 

So what prospect do you think we have thats equal to a second round pick?

Kylington?

I'd be okay with that, personally.

[cross16]

30 minutes ago, Sarasti said:

 

So what prospect do you think we have thats equal to a second round pick?

Kylington?

I'd be okay with that, personally.

 

Also so hard to say as it's so subjective to what the team likes/wants. 

 

But Kylingtin is fair I would think or virtually any prospect who is not in their top 5-7 would be fair value. 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

54 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Lebrun's article in the athletic was mentioning this scenario, the sign and trade. he feels the Blues won't do it unless there is value there and he figures they would want at least a 2nd or maybe even a prospect/roster player. Seemed to suggest it won't be something as simple as a mid round pick. 

 

But I agree if you want Pietrangelo the sign and trade is the way to go. It sound like 8X8 wasn't a terrible offer just the structure of it needed work and I could live with that contract. I'm not as concerned about back loading the deal as the Flames revenue situation should only improve with the new arena coming. 

Again I'll agree with alot of others  about this when I say the length of the term is the real cause for concern.  I dont want to be the team paying a player 8+ mil when they're 38 years old, regardless on what the cap is by that time.

[cross16]

33 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Again I'll agree with alot of others  about this when I say the length of the term is the real cause for concern.  I dont want to be the team paying a player 8+ mil when they're 38 years old, regardless on what the cap is by that time.

 

I agree with this as well, term is the biggest concern for sure. 

 

I think the last 2 years would hurt, but if the AAV is at 8 I'm willing to trade that for what he brings now. A long term deal any higher or 9 plus I would not be willing to do and i'm also not doing a NMC either. 

[jjgallow]

On 9/20/2020 at 10:56 AM, The_People1 said:

 

Stud D are different.  They win Norris Trophies for the first time well into their 30s.  You've got plenty of older D playing at peak until 35/36 before a drop off.  Someone like Chara was effective well into his early 40s.  Pietro has been healthy his entire career so nothing is holding him back.

 

So this in itself is a whole thread, it's interesting the defenceman dynamic.    

 

Yes, there are Norris winners well into their 30's but the average age is still around 28.    Some defencemen do continue into their mid-30's without a dropoff.    Far more of them Do have a dropoff, however.   

 

Pietro is interesting in the sense of my most important arguement...you don't see a lot of old defenceman winning cups in key roles.

 

Ok except Pietro.  lol.     Except still not.  He was 29, in his prime.   He'll be 31 on his next team.   In his prime?  not sure.
More importantly:   Was Pietro key to the Blues success?  Some think so.  He did have that winning goal.  But I am pretty confident arguing that it was the Blue's younger defence core...in that 23-27 year old range, which won them the cup.

 

An older stud defenceman can sometimes take you to the dance, but almost never will you come back with the silverware.  And yeah, most (definitely not all) do drop off after 30.    

 

Would I love to see a guy like Pietro on the Flames?  How can you not.   But a 10m contract with term would, in my eyes, be a desperation move.

[sak22]

3 hours ago, robrob74 said:

https://www.tsn.ca/tsn-hockey-draft-primer-calgary-flames-1.1526291

 

 

They start the video off saying how the Flames have used only 15 selections in the past 3 drafts. The future isn't great for the Flames. We don't have any higher end prospects, aside from Pelletier, but the rest really are wildcards and are just prospects until they push for a spot. This is why I think we have to sign a goalie in UFA instead of trading for one. The lack of first round picks in the last (how many?) drafts is really concerning. It's going back to the Sutter days of managing the team. It's handicapping the future for today. 

 

We need to sign a goalie in UFA (and I'd prefer they just sign Talbot if they go the trade route). They could probably still get Pietro done if they decide to go. 

 

Are they looking at getting a pick back in a Gaudreau or Monahan deal? I feel like their worth is higher at a TDL because teams are going all in for a cup. 

The problem with Sutter was IMO was he only had 2 2nds in his entire 8 draft tenure and he only hit on 2 of 7 first rounders.  As a GM he still made 59 picks in 8 years an average of 7 per year.  The image below is the true ugly of Sutter, and only part of the tale, talk about a who's, who of who?

 

I get the 15 selections in 3 years isn't great, but at the same time I have optimism that it could provide more value than the 3 drafts where Feaster had 20 picks and 5 first rounders, those drafts did produce Monahan and Gaudreau but nothing else and IMO was the greatest handicap Treliving had.  The 2015 and 2016 drafts so far may be 2 of the better drafts this team has had since the '80's, in a way its not a good thing but the team has shown to hit on a few more than they did the first half of the last decade..

 

When we don't have picks we complain about not having them, when we do we complain years later how we wasted a pick and passed up on someone better.  For fun I dug up the 2014 draft thread, because it seems like the most criticized (should of taken Nylander or Pasta instead of Bennett, why MacDonald over Demko, why did they take Hunter Smith, idiots for passing up on Point), what do you get is our 2014 take was Sam Bennett was a slam dunk can't believe he fell to us, MacDonald and Demko was a wash, Smith was a good pick, and nobody seemed to care about Point.  So Treliving, Burke and co. may have sucked that year, but we all suck too.

 

[The_People1]

21 hours ago, sak22 said:

The problem with Sutter was IMO was he only had 2 2nds in his entire 8 draft tenure and he only hit on 2 of 7 first rounders.  

 

Sutter hit all his 2nd round trades.  I'm sure his only regret was he didn't also trade his 1st.  

 

Let's be honest, based on his first round picks, do we really want him to make those 2nd round picks?  He should've traded all his 1sts.  That year we got Bourque for a 2nd, Chicago was also asking a 1st for Patrick Sharp.  He could've been our elusive #1 Center.

[cross16]

Bobby Ryan being bought out by the Sens today. I'm not sure where the Flames will go in their offseason plans but if the priorty is D and Goal then I thikn Ryan would be a a nice buy low candidate. He's got warts, but he also still brings a RS, good PP presence and since he turned his life around a great leadership story. I also like the fit here. 

 

Can understand they would want to shoot higher but he'd be a really nice fall back plan IMO

 

 

[travel_dude]

53 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Bobby Ryan being bought out by the Sens today. I'm not sure where the Flames will go in their offseason plans but if the priorty is D and Goal then I thikn Ryan would be a a nice buy low candidate. He's got warts, but he also still brings a RS, good PP presence and since he turned his life around a great leadership story. I also like the fit here. 

 

Can understand they would want to shoot higher but he'd be a really nice fall back plan IMO

 

 

 

If you are talking about a buy-low candidate for a RW spot, then yes it makes some sense.

I think the Flames staff are good at helping the players with addiction issues.

I noticed, he's from Cherry Hill, NJ.

Same place as Gaudreau.

Funny.

[sak22]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Sutter hit all his 2nd round trades.  I'm sure his only regret was he didn't also trade his 1st.  

 

Let's be honest, based on his first round picks, do we really want him to make those 2nd round picks?  He should've traded all his 1sts.  That year we got Bourque for a 2nd, Chicago was also asking a 1st for Patrick Sharp.  He could've been our elusive #1 Center.

It's really sad when his 3rd most productive NHLer he picked in the 1st round benefited Calgary slightly more by not signing here.  But given what we know, those were the years we truly needed to throw more chips in

6 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

If you are talking about a buy-low candidate for a RW spot, then yes it makes some sense.

I think the Flames staff are good at helping the players with addiction issues.

I noticed, he's from Cherry Hill, NJ.

Same place as Gaudreau.

Funny.

I believe he lives in Idaho now, if he wanted to be closer to his offseason home Calgary does make sense.

[cross16]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Sutter hit all his 2nd round trades.  I'm sure his only regret was he didn't also trade his 1st.  

 

Let's be honest, based on his first round picks, do we really want him to make those 2nd round picks?  He should've traded all his 1sts.  That year we got Bourque for a 2nd, Chicago was also asking a 1st for Patrick Sharp.  He could've been our elusive #1 Center.

 

Well he also dealt a 2nd for Marcus Nilson and a 2nd for the Leafs to take Wayne Primeau off his hands so they weren't all good. 

 

The problem with this philosophy, and what caught up to Sutter, is your depth erodes. The Flames lack of depth is what really held them back at the end of those Sutter years they had probably the league's worst 3/4 lines and couldn't' even ice a full line up at one point. 

 

Constantly trading your top 60 picks is not a sustainable business model in the cap world IMO. 

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Well he also dealt a 2nd for Marcus Nilson and a 2nd for the Leafs to take Wayne Primeau off his hands so they weren't all good. 

 

The problem with this philosophy, and what caught up to Sutter, is your depth erodes. The Flames lack of depth is what really held them back at the end of those Sutter years they had probably the league's worst 3/4 lines and couldn't' even ice a full line up at one point. 

 

Constantly trading your top 60 picks is not a sustainable business model in the cap world IMO. 

 

Had we won the Cup, then who cares? 

 

Rebuild with tons of picks.  After the foundation is set, then trade all the picks and go all in for a 2 or 3 year window.  

[cross16]

19 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Had we won the Cup, then who cares? 

 

Rebuild with tons of picks.  After the foundation is set, then trade all the picks and go all in for a 2 or 3 year window.  

 

Well they didn't though and in fact didn't even come close due in large part to the fact that they had no depth from trading so many picks. Put some decent 3rd/4th liners on those Iginla/Jokinen/Regher phaneuf years and I think the result is quite different. 

 

The cap demands roster turnover on too frequent a basis for that model to work anymore IMO. You constantly need players to come in and outperform their contract value to win cups and ELCs or close it is the best way to do it. I look at Tampa who, very likely, will win the cup but at the same time has also continued to draft over the years as well. The decision isn't that binary IMO but to each their own. 

 

Not suggestion never dealing picks but you need to find way more of a balance than Sutter did, and more of a balance than Treliving has been doing so far too to be fair. 

[JTech780]

 

[robrob74]

20 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

 

Vegas is the new Rangers. The perks.

[Thebrewcrew]

 

11 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Vegas is the new Rangers. The perks.

I will be shocked if they can actually pull it off. They are gonna need to find ways to trade Fleury, Stastny, a D and probably Smith or Marchessault. 
 

I love Petro, but I’m not subtracting 4 key pieces from my team to get him like Vegas will have to