UFA 2020, Who’d You Sign?

[robrob74]

16 minutes ago, ABC923 said:

The ultimate pitfall was probably the Hamonic trade as far as the rebuild goes.  We never really got true top 4 play from him, and now he’s done just as Dobson is breaking into the league (Dobson was selected with our 1st rounder that year). Even today, that would at least mean one more signed defender with upside on an entry level deal, leaving more money to sign a ufa or make a move (oh yeah, and he shoots right).

 

yeah, it kind of shows how the build was rushed. In that draft the Flames did not pick until the 4th round due to Hamonic and Smith. And how many pick did BT use on other goalies? I guess just the Elliott deal. But it is still too many on a too many stop gaps that lasted a season or two. That kills the prospect pools and limits how often in a draft you can swing for the fences. 
 

ive been reasonably pleased with some of the drafting, so limiting the ability to find some gems.

[Thebrewcrew]

3 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

yeah, it kind of shows how the build was rushed. In that draft the Flames did not pick until the 4th round due to Hamonic and Smith. And how many pick did BT use on other goalies? I guess just the Elliott deal. But it is still too many on a too many stop gaps that lasted a season or two. That kills the prospect pools and limits how often in a draft you can swing for the fences. 
 

ive been reasonably pleased with some of the drafting, so limiting the ability to find some gems.

I’m past the point of spending assets on D and G. I know they are extremely important, but the Flames have spent something like 8 picks on Hamonic/Hamilton/Elliott/Smith. There are enough options in UFA to fill both holes this year, keep the picks. 

[ABC923]

3 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I’m past the point of spending assets on D and G. I know they are extremely important, but the Flames have spent something like 8 picks on Hamonic/Hamilton/Elliott/Smith. There are enough options in UFA to fill both holes this year, keep the picks. 

In hindsight, the Hamilton trade was probably the only one that made sense (mostly based on the caliber of the player we were getting). I will admit the Elliott trade looked good at the time to me, since he had solid numbers and seemed like a solid guy in need of a starter role.

 

Let’s not forget the Lazar trade either...

[The_People1]

9 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Exactly.     exactly.

 

And, in fact, by ending our rebuild early....in a way, we extended it.  by creating a need for a 2nd go at it.

 

Yeah we could keep those guys.     That said, I don't see anyone who's untradeable, it would just depend on the deals required to ship out the older guys.  If this younger group remained, then yes, that would be nice.   Not enough to prevent us from getting super high draft picks.   But enough to make the transition a little smoother and have some veterans in place in the next phase.    I would be fine with either approach, keeping them or trading them too.  Just whatever worked with the deals

 

Precisely.  The 20 to 23 years olds today will be our veteran 24-27 years olds tomorrow when we are ready to compete again with some stud 20 to 23 year old #1 Center, #1 D, and #1 Goalie.  The transition would be smooth like you said, good enough to compete but not good enough to bump us out of top picks.  Their struggles in the next 3 to 4 years will prove valuable in leading the new core when they emerge eventually.

[The_People1]

On 9/6/2020 at 7:10 PM, Thebrewcrew said:

Someone that I would take a look at is Radko Gudas.

 

I'm not too big into analytics, but this past season his underlying numbers were far better than a guy like Hamonic. Treliving likes to have at least one physical, defensive D among his top 6. It comes down to cost, but he could be a more affordable option that could play some top 4 minutes for you. 

 

I'm not a huge fan.  He's 30 but the way he plays, his body is more 35 because it takes a toll.  He's also not overly big at 6'-0" 205 lbs.  Not physically intimidating although heart of a warrior.  

[cross16]

The Flames today are not really paying for the trades of Hamonic, Lazar etc or Treliving rushing the rebuild. That's not really the pitfall, the pitfall is the Flames never committed to actual rebuild in the first place AND they are are still paying for the dark ages of 2011-2014.The Flames never chose a rebuild the contract status of their captain and best player forced them into it and even then they blew the start of it. Dealing away picks trying to keep a bad an aging roster together robbed them of picks in 12-14 and then on top of that they got absolutely zero assets for the core of that team, due in large part to their desire to get right back into the playoffs. Rather than targeting upside players via trade they targeted first round picks and players that could help them win sooner rather than later. Feaster even said after he traded Iginla his mandate was to get the team into the playoffs the following season.

 

No rebuild was rushed as there was never a proper one to begin with and that's what we are paying for today. 

[sak22]

26 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

No rebuild was rushed as there was never a proper one to begin with and that's what we are paying for today. 

Doesn't help that from 11-14 they had 11 picks in the top 60 total from those 4 years and in 2020 all they have to show is Monahan, Bennett and Jankowski, factor in Jankowski has been a disappointment and Bennett for various reasons hasn't lived up to expectations, judging by my own criteria of successful pick being top 6 F or top 4D, we would be 1/11 in those years, though I'd say Bennett could be a top 6 guy but 2/11 still sucks.  Maybe not the strongest drafts to have the amounts that they had, but if you strike on a winger or a d man back then maybe your not signing the Brouwers and Neals or making the Hamonic trade

[Thebrewcrew]

Given that the Flames are tied to Lucic for another 3 years at big money, it might make sense to build a line that plays to his strengths. Mean, physical, nasty. I look at what VGK has on their 4th line, Carrier-Nosek-Reaves. They might not be the most talented trio, but they have an identity and they can really wear a team down.

 

The Lucic-Bennett-Dube line was good in the postseason, but I don't see Dube being built for that style of a game, at least long term. 

 

I would take a long look at a guy like Matt Martin. Between Martin and Lucic, you have a 4th line that can inflict some punishment on the opposition, it gives you a 4th line, where you know what to expect each and every night. Bigger picture, if the Flames envision a top 6 role for Dube at some point, there are better ways to develop him than playing a crash and bang role with Lucic. 

 

Of course it all comes down to the contract, I'd imagine Martin could be had at 1.75x2, which is what the Reaves extension was. 

 

[FlameFan4Life]

Let's take a different perspective when looking at the top few threads. We are asking, what UFA to sign, which goalie fit's best, who to trade, rebuild or re-tool.

I will give my quick answer with a longer reason or my how to.

Re-tool by doing everything we are trying to choose from.

 

I feel the biggest piece we require aside from a #1 goalie is a two way center. We already have that in Lindholm. While being with us he has been very consistent at both ends of the ice. Instead of paying a high price for an established #1 C I would suggest moving him over for a season to see if it is something he can handle. We all talk about the price we overpay every time we chase the coveted  positions, the picks and assets we lose every time.

 

By moving Lindholm over it gives us a decision to make with Mony. I love his finish. He has gotten more physical, not a lot but some. Why can't he play RW? If there isn't a fair trade or beneficial trade just move him over to Lindholm's wing while we figure the #1 C out. I get the desire to trade for a proven number 1 but until the team is only short that one piece out right paying for it is to risky. We need to be better off before we take that risk.

 

Aside from goal we have to decide who is going before we can decide who to go after. We all know there is a cap so who is going always dictates who we can afford.

What we know is JH may ne available for trade and he is the most likely player to leave at the end of his contract. If we can fill other holes by trading him it would be good. Also the cap space saved allows for many option and pieces added but instead of filling a position by trading him I would look at getting value in picks and high end prospects. This would allow Tkachuk to play on the top line adding a more physical and confident player to excel and possibly want to stay long term.

The money saved then could be spent on a true RWer like Hoffman. I think Hoffman could be had for around 6mil.

A top line of  Tkachuk/Lindholm/Hoffman would have potential to be elite.

A second line of Dube/Backlund or Mony/Mange could be fast and high producing.

By making these few changes we would be adding Hoffman, picks and prospects for JH and giving Tkachuk a larger role. The production would very likely balance, and term on Hoffman gives us a leg up on a scoring core member while we get assets for JH.

We could possibly add a UFA in Hall that could play on the second line instead of Dube and that then pushes Lucic to the fourth line and Dube to the third line for better balance.

 

At Defense I would like to see Gustufson resigned for the PP upside. He is as good of a choice for the money he will get as any other and he fill's a hole. We have a bright future in Anderson and Valamaki. Hanifin can be reliable but that leaves us with everyone's favorite in Gio who is getting older and slower. I love the guy, the devotion to the team and his job is great but business wise we should be trying to avoid an Iginla situation. We need to get something of value for him. I would wait until the trade deadline even if we are in a good playoff spot and get a high end D prospect + the highest pick we can. This would allow us to pick up a piece we need at the time by shedding his cap hit. Stop looking at this as keeping our favorites and start seeing it like a business , which it is. I also would like to acquire the best stay at home reliable Dman that we can to play with Valamaki. He needs to be able to play to his skills and develop the rest of his game without to much pressure and we need to do what we can to allow him to succeed.

 

As for goal, we all have opinion's and we are all going to be wrong when Treliving makes his decision. I would try first for Lehner for 5 years. He won't end up here I know that but I think he is the best available. Second I would go for Holtby. I say these 2 guy's because the cost only money and no asset's. My third choice would be Murray. I know his price is said to cost a first round pick and as long as his contract is in place before the trade I would do it.

 

All my suggestions could look like this.

 

Tkachuk/Lindholm/Hoffman

Hall/Monahan/Mange

Dube/Backlund/Bennett

Lucic/Ryan/Rieder

 

Gio/Anderson

Hanifin/Gustufson

Valamaki/?

 

This to me looks better than what we have now.

Plus there are so many other moves that could be made.

ALOT of teams are looking for center depth and I am sure we could get assets back for Ryan and Backlund. Gawdin is said to be ready and Bennett can handle the third line as well. Plus there are UFA's that can improve our depth. Tyler Ennis and Dereck Brassard can both be had for less than Ryan is getting.

 

With all I have said I know many will not agree with my suggestions but I will sum it all up. Get what picks and assets we can get for our players like JH and Gio. The additions we make should be with money not asset's where we can control it.

 

 

 

 

[robrob74]

6 hours ago, FlameFan4Life said:

Let's take a different perspective when looking at the top few threads. We are asking, what UFA to sign, which goalie fit's best, who to trade, rebuild or re-tool.

I will give my quick answer with a longer reason or my how to.

Re-tool by doing everything we are trying to choose from.

 

I feel the biggest piece we require aside from a #1 goalie is a two way center. We already have that in Lindholm. While being with us he has been very consistent at both ends of the ice. Instead of paying a high price for an established #1 C I would suggest moving him over for a season to see if it is something he can handle. We all talk about the price we overpay every time we chase the coveted  positions, the picks and assets we lose every time.

 

By moving Lindholm over it gives us a decision to make with Mony. I love his finish. He has gotten more physical, not a lot but some. Why can't he play RW? If there isn't a fair trade or beneficial trade just move him over to Lindholm's wing while we figure the #1 C out. I get the desire to trade for a proven number 1 but until the team is only short that one piece out right paying for it is to risky. We need to be better off before we take that risk.

 

Aside from goal we have to decide who is going before we can decide who to go after. We all know there is a cap so who is going always dictates who we can afford.

What we know is JH may ne available for trade and he is the most likely player to leave at the end of his contract. If we can fill other holes by trading him it would be good. Also the cap space saved allows for many option and pieces added but instead of filling a position by trading him I would look at getting value in picks and high end prospects. This would allow Tkachuk to play on the top line adding a more physical and confident player to excel and possibly want to stay long term.

The money saved then could be spent on a true RWer like Hoffman. I think Hoffman could be had for around 6mil.

A top line of  Tkachuk/Lindholm/Hoffman would have potential to be elite.

A second line of Dube/Backlund or Mony/Mange could be fast and high producing.

By making these few changes we would be adding Hoffman, picks and prospects for JH and giving Tkachuk a larger role. The production would very likely balance, and term on Hoffman gives us a leg up on a scoring core member while we get assets for JH.

We could possibly add a UFA in Hall that could play on the second line instead of Dube and that then pushes Lucic to the fourth line and Dube to the third line for better balance.

 

At Defense I would like to see Gustufson resigned for the PP upside. He is as good of a choice for the money he will get as any other and he fill's a hole. We have a bright future in Anderson and Valamaki. Hanifin can be reliable but that leaves us with everyone's favorite in Gio who is getting older and slower. I love the guy, the devotion to the team and his job is great but business wise we should be trying to avoid an Iginla situation. We need to get something of value for him. I would wait until the trade deadline even if we are in a good playoff spot and get a high end D prospect + the highest pick we can. This would allow us to pick up a piece we need at the time by shedding his cap hit. Stop looking at this as keeping our favorites and start seeing it like a business , which it is. I also would like to acquire the best stay at home reliable Dman that we can to play with Valamaki. He needs to be able to play to his skills and develop the rest of his game without to much pressure and we need to do what we can to allow him to succeed.

 

As for goal, we all have opinion's and we are all going to be wrong when Treliving makes his decision. I would try first for Lehner for 5 years. He won't end up here I know that but I think he is the best available. Second I would go for Holtby. I say these 2 guy's because the cost only money and no asset's. My third choice would be Murray. I know his price is said to cost a first round pick and as long as his contract is in place before the trade I would do it.

 

All my suggestions could look like this.

 

Tkachuk/Lindholm/Hoffman

Hall/Monahan/Mange

Dube/Backlund/Bennett

Lucic/Ryan/Rieder

 

Gio/Anderson

Hanifin/Gustufson

Valamaki/?

 

This to me looks better than what we have now.

Plus there are so many other moves that could be made.

ALOT of teams are looking for center depth and I am sure we could get assets back for Ryan and Backlund. Gawdin is said to be ready and Bennett can handle the third line as well. Plus there are UFA's that can improve our depth. Tyler Ennis and Dereck Brassard can both be had for less than Ryan is getting.

 

With all I have said I know many will not agree with my suggestions but I will sum it all up. Get what picks and assets we can get for our players like JH and Gio. The additions we make should be with money not asset's where we can control it.

 

 

 

 

 

I definitely agree with your final statement, get what you can with Johnny and (for me) possibly Gio. 
 

id like to see them develop Bennett as a C finally. I am scared to send Backlund away as he’s the only two-way C we have, but if the Flames use Lindholm and Monahan as a. C then there’s no real good spot for Benny with Backs in to play C. 
 

I think the Flames could move on from Monny and Gaudreau with little affect on the team. 
 

I will include your adds to my subtraction:

 

Tkachuk, Lindholm, Hoffman 

Hall, Bennett, Dube

Magiapane, Backlund, Reider 

Lucic, Gawdin, Quine

 

i am trading Ryan, Monahan and Johnny, but of course not sure for whom. 
 

if we keep everyone I would like to see them try some real talent with Bennett.

 

go:

Tkachuk, Lindholm, Gaudreau 

Hall, Bennett, Dube

Monahan, Backlund, Mangiapane 

Lucic, Gawdin, Reider

Quine

Or

 

Hall, Monahan, Lindholm

Tkachuk, Backlund, Mangiapane 

Gaudreau, Bennett, Dube

Lucic, Gawdin, Reider

Quine

 

No demotions just line placing. Don’t call a line a number, just play who’s going. 

[Sarasti]

4 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I definitely agree with your final statement, get what you can with Johnny and (for me) possibly Gio. 
 

id like to see them develop Bennett as a C finally. I am scared to send Backlund away as he’s the only two-way C we have, but if the Flames use Lindholm and Monahan as a. C then there’s no real good spot for Benny with Backs in to play C. 
 

I think the Flames could move on from Monny and Gaudreau with little affect on the team. 
 

I will include your adds to my subtraction:

 

Tkachuk, Lindholm, Hoffman 

Hall, Bennett, Dube

Magiapane, Backlund, Reider 

Lucic, Gawdin, Quine

 

i am trading Ryan, Monahan and Johnny, but of course not sure for whom. 
 

if we keep everyone I would like to see them try some real talent with Bennett.

 

go:

Tkachuk, Lindholm, Gaudreau 

Hall, Bennett, Dube

Monahan, Backlund, Mangiapane 

Lucic, Gawdin, Reider

Quine

Or

 

Hall, Monahan, Lindholm

Tkachuk, Backlund, Mangiapane 

Gaudreau, Bennett, Dube

Lucic, Gawdin, Reider

Quine

 

No demotions just line placing. Don’t call a line a number, just play who’s going. 

 

I like the look of the second lineup you have as I am a big proponent of spreading out the scoring talent and rolling 3-4 lines so as to not tire our big guns too much.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, Sarasti said:

 

I like the look of the second lineup you have as I am a big proponent of spreading out the scoring talent and rolling 3-4 lines so as to not tire our big guns too much.

 

thanks! 
 

when you think about it, it seems like the roster can be tinkered with within you maximize it. 
 

I like the sound of using Lucic in a deal considering his actual dollars is lower than his cap. Teams wanting to spend less might be willing to take on his cap hit. That’s not to say I didn’t like what I saw in the playoffs, but can he sustain it for a few more years?

 

but like you say, to spread scoring throughout the lineup helps and i feel like Bennett, Mangiapane and Dube are starting to look like they can play with talent. Creating new pairs will change the outlook. Plus you can always revert back to some when needed. 
 

I saw that Monahan had his career average shooting percentage but he took around 90 less shots this year, so he was scoring at the same rate per shot attempts. So he really needs to get shooting again. 
 

I still think the only one I trade is Johnny only because his contract will end in 2 years and with Covid and life, I think he’d want to play close to home.

[ABC923]

In a dream scenario, Lucic agrees to be traded to Ottawa along with a draft pick or prospect in exchange for a 7th.  Ottawa gets an asset, plus a player that helps them reach the salary floor but has had a chunk of his salary already payed for by somebody else.  We get a bunch of cap space to do something else.

[The_People1]

6 hours ago, ABC923 said:

In a dream scenario, Lucic agrees to be traded to Ottawa along with a draft pick or prospect in exchange for a 7th.  Ottawa gets an asset, plus a player that helps them reach the salary floor but has had a chunk of his salary already payed for by somebody else.  We get a bunch of cap space to do something else.

 

Are you accusing Ottawa of putting together an NHL team for next season? 

[ABC923]

6 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Are you accusing Ottawa of putting together an NHL team for next season? 

Solid point. Maybe we trade them a bunch of ringette sticks for all their hockey sticks?

[cross16]

While it would be very cool to move Lucic's cap hit i consider it extremely unlikely. He's been pretty open saying that last season brought his passion for Hockey back so I think the chances he waives his NMC are pretty small.

 

Only chance is Seattle takes him and I would consider that possibility very small as well. 

[Thebrewcrew]

I don't see a Lucic move happening any time soon. The cost to get rid of his contract would be very high. It would likely cost Valimaki, Pelletier, or whoever the 2020 1st ends up being for Seattle to consider doing it.

 

This is where I go back to trying to build a line that plays to his strengths. You have him for 3 more seasons, may as well put him in a position to contribute.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

While it would be very cool to move Lucic's cap hit i consider it extremely unlikely. He's been pretty open saying that last season brought his passion for Hockey back so I think the chances he waives his NMC are pretty small.

 

Only chance is Seattle takes him and I would consider that possibility very small as well. 

 

I think there is a reasonable chance he waives his NMC.  BT was decent in allowing him to keep it in the trade.

Without it, he might have been bumped to the AHL which would have ended his career.

That consideration has to mean something.

 

I doubt Seattle takes him.

Not a smart move for a building franchise.

[ABC923]

19 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think there is a reasonable chance he waives his NMC.  BT was decent in allowing him to keep it in the trade.

Without it, he might have been bumped to the AHL which would have ended his career.

That consideration has to mean something.

 

I doubt Seattle takes him.

Not a smart move for a building franchise.

I also think there's a decent chance he waives for the expansion draft.  Seattle is a bit closer to his home town of Vancouver, it could have some appeal to him. I do doubt he would waive for a trade elsewhere.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I don't see a Lucic move happening any time soon. The cost to get rid of his contract would be very high. It would likely cost Valimaki, Pelletier, or whoever the 2020 1st ends up being for Seattle to consider doing it.

 

This is where I go back to trying to build a line that plays to his strengths. You have him for 3 more seasons, may as well put him in a position to contribute.

 

I just don't think there is any connection between bloated contracts and playing time.

 

The best use of players is always to use players best on their performance, not their salaries.

 

I definitely do understand the bad taste in your mouth on that contract but the only solution to that is a better GM.

[cross16]

2 hours ago, ABC923 said:

I also think there's a decent chance he waives for the expansion draft.  Seattle is a bit closer to his home town of Vancouver, it could have some appeal to him. I do doubt he would waive for a trade elsewhere.

 

I'm of the belief that the only reason the Flames made the deal is Lucic gave them a handshake deal to waive for the expansion draft. Too much has been said between the lines for me to think otherwise but I don't think he is waiving for any other reason.

 

And I agree that there is no chance Seattle takes him without the Flames adding something which I would be pretty against doing. I don't see the cap space being needed bad enough to make that move and if you want him off the team that much due to his play just buy him out. 

[robrob74]

29 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I just don't think there is any connection between bloated contracts and playing time.

 

The best use of players is always to use players best on their performance, not their salaries.

 

I definitely do understand the bad taste in your mouth on that contract but the only solution to that is a better GM.

 

this is where I am at and didnt like the persistence of using Lucic on the pp and the amount of playing time. For all of the PP time he got he didn’t score enough to justify it. 
 

or use him differently on the PP. 

[jjgallow]

10 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

this is where I am at and didnt like the persistence of using Lucic on the pp and the amount of playing time. For all of the PP time he got he didn’t score enough to justify it. 
 

or use him differently on the PP. 

 

Yup.  don't get me wrong, I respect Lucic.

 

We should always have respect for old people.

[travel_dude]

53 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

this is where I am at and didnt like the persistence of using Lucic on the pp and the amount of playing time. For all of the PP time he got he didn’t score enough to justify it. 
 

or use him differently on the PP. 

 

I wan't a big fan of the setup of the 2nd PP unit.

It was a hodgepodge.

Gio, Lucic, Mangiapane, Dube, Backlund

Ryan at times.

 

What exactly was the strategy here?

The goals Lucic got were off Backlund's stick.

Backlund's would have been more on the rush.

Gio was mostly unable to get the puck on net unless he walked it in.

 

There are guys I would like to see getting PP time; Bennett and Ras.

[robrob74]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I wan't a big fan of the setup of the 2nd PP unit.

It was a hodgepodge.

Gio, Lucic, Mangiapane, Dube, Backlund

Ryan at times.

 

What exactly was the strategy here?

The goals Lucic got were off Backlund's stick.

Backlund's would have been more on the rush.

Gio was mostly unable to get the puck on net unless he walked it in.

 

There are guys I would like to see getting PP time; Bennett and Ras.

 

ya I think this is where you could maybe trade Lindholm or someone like that to make the 2nd unit better. It needs a stabilizing presence on it. 
 

I like your ideas. 
 

id go traditional on the blue line for PP2

 

Lindholm, Bennett, Magiapane/Dube

Giordano, Andersson 

 

or go with the forwards I mentioned and then take away Gio and put Ras in the one-timer spot. I like Lindholm in a shooting spot too. He’s a much better player when he’s shooting.