Jakob Pelletier - 2019 1st round pick

[Thebrewcrew]

On 8/28/2021 at 1:52 PM, zima said:

So they only expected a yr out that trade? Wow to me that is so stupid so tell me was Pell a big part of the run?

Teams in the OHL and QMJHL will frequently mortgage the future to win a championship. They will jettison multiple, significant futures. Thats's what the Foreurs did and unfortunately they just came up short.

 

An example being Robert Thomas (plays for STL) was traded in the OHL for Connor McMichael (WSH pick), 4 2nd round picks and a 3rd.  

[kehatch]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

We kind of went down this road recently in the....Ryan Francis thread.  lol.

 

 

 

Not that either thread is more appropriate a home for it but there it is.   

 

Essentially if you take away the high first round picks, which you shouldn't have to rely on, the Flames have:

Gaudreau.

 

That's it.  In terms of core players, imho.   And he developed in US College.   But I'm not looking to go down a Pelletier bashing road if possible on this thread.

 

That isn't evidence.

 

Your making up a success criteria (number of core players drafted) then making up the data (Monahan /Tkachuk excluded. Fox / Brodie excluded. Backlund excluded. Andersson excluded. Etc). That's been done in a silo without applying the criteria to any other team.  Then you take your conclusion (Flames bad at drafting) and present it as fact that can't be debated.

 

Fine. This is a hockey forum not a university campus. And as you pointed out, not the right thread. 

[robrob74]

On 8/29/2021 at 3:12 PM, kehatch said:

 

That isn't evidence.

 

Your making up a success criteria (number of core players drafted) then making up the data (Monahan /Tkachuk excluded. Fox / Brodie excluded. Backlund excluded. Andersson excluded. Etc). That's been done in a silo without applying the criteria to any other team.  Then you take your conclusion (Flames bad at drafting) and present it as fact that can't be debated.

 

Fine. This is a hockey forum not a university campus. And as you pointed out, not the right thread. 

one thing you say is that other teams, Tampa included, have more traded in players. But you gotta remember that they had to have good players to deal and to add to in order to win the cup. We have a core made up of players who can get a sniff at the dance but no success while there. 
 

we’ve drafted NHL players. But hardly any that make a real impact yet. I’d say even Tkachuk and Gaudreau do not make an impact. Not any really, otherwise we’d be able to win a round against a team that aren’t the Canucks, or beat a Jets team with their best players out in a play-round. 

[sak22]

12 hours ago, robrob74 said:

one thing you say is that other teams, Tampa included, have more traded in players. But you gotta remember that they had to have good players to deal and to add to in order to win the cup. We have a core made up of players who can get a sniff at the dance but no success while there. 
 

we’ve drafted NHL players. But hardly any that make a real impact yet. I’d say even Tkachuk and Gaudreau do not make an impact. Not any really, otherwise we’d be able to win a round against a team that aren’t the Canucks, or beat a Jets team with their best players out in a play-round. 

So, does that mean McDavid, Draisatl, Barkov, Huberdeau, Marner, Matthews are on the same level as Gaudreau and Tkachuk? If we could trade Gaudreau and Tkachuk for any of those duos we'd do it in a heartbeat, but should we expect different results?  I would say no, based on those players also having failures getting their own teams over the hump.  Does it mean they can't either?  No. 

 

I find sports funny, a guy like Ryan O'Reilly will now go down as a winner, to this point he's made it out of the first round once in his 12 year career, but because he went all the way that year he doesn't need another series win to lose that label.  Joe Thornton has won a round most of the times he made the playoffs but likely won't be remembered for anything outside his regular season accomplishments.

[jjgallow]

12 hours ago, sak22 said:

So, does that mean McDavid, Draisatl, Barkov, Huberdeau, Marner, Matthews are on the same level as Gaudreau and Tkachuk? If we could trade Gaudreau and Tkachuk for any of those duos we'd do it in a heartbeat, but should we expect different results?  I would say no, based on those players also having failures getting their own teams over the hump.  Does it mean they can't either?  No. 

 

I find sports funny, a guy like Ryan O'Reilly will now go down as a winner, to this point he's made it out of the first round once in his 12 year career, but because he went all the way that year he doesn't need another series win to lose that label.  Joe Thornton has won a round most of the times he made the playoffs but likely won't be remembered for anything outside his regular season accomplishments.

 

Point made, but it's sort of extreme example on top of extreme example.    Tkachuk, for instance, I don't think we've exactly written him off for playoffs.   There's an issue there but it's not necessarily an unsolvable one.    Gaudreau is another story.  Obviously.   There is nothing about is size or physique or style of play which is condusive to playoffs, the only question is whether it could be mitigated a bit on a tougher team.     His situation is entirely distinct from all the other players you listed and I would argue that you would see different results.   However, not likely enough to matter as our issues are global.

 

Maybe the take home is that it's a group effort.

[travel_dude]

8 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Point made, but it's sort of extreme example on top of extreme example.    Tkachuk, for instance, I don't think we've exactly written him off for playoffs.   There's an issue there but it's not necessarily an unsolvable one.    Gaudreau is another story.  Obviously.   There is nothing about is size or physique or style of play which is condusive to playoffs, the only question is whether it could be mitigated a bit on a tougher team.     His situation is entirely distinct from all the other players you listed and I would argue that you would see different results.   However, not likely enough to matter as our issues are global.

 

Maybe the take home is that it's a group effort.

 

Playmakers will only have success if the rest of the line can raise their level.

We didn't see any combination of Gaudreau and Lindholm in any playoffs yet.

Call it mitigation, but really a playmaker is not going to have any success on their own.

 

Would I like to see Gaudreau play more like Mangiapane?

Sure, but I would rather see him have options.

Obviously, the belief is he is pass first, so he needs to take more low shots on net.

But the guys playing with him need to get open FFS.

The PP last year was predictable when Gio was out there.

JH passes to Gio who walks in or passes to Lindholm.

 

Anywat, Pelletier is a bit of Gaudreau and a bit of Mangiapane.

Smaller, more of a playmaker, but goes to the net.

Would like to see him get 10 games in the latter part of the season, after he has spent time as a pro.

[conundrumed]

What makes it hard for JG to perform at his undoubtedly high skill level, imo, is there is no one else for the competition to focus on. Shut him down, shut the Flames down.

Having more depth in the lineup helps a lot. We've had nothing to fall back on to offset it. Keep changing lines, etc, hasn't helped. JG has a target on his back all of the time and secondary scoring has been pitiful. Prospects like Pelletier and Zary could offset that, hopefully not too late. Coleman helps. Heck, even Pitlick helps if he's good for 15 goals. Every bit helps. A renewed Mony helps JG and Lindholm on the RW helps him.

More threats that you can't leave open to double team Johnny. Tkachuk always likes to play behind the net, no point having him with JG.

Pelletier would be good with Tkachuk, as would Zary...the wait sucks.

Dube, for me, is our wild card rn. He's a threat at his best, fast and smart. I hope this is his year, we need him. Excellent playmaker and vision, make it consistent and he's my bust loose candidate. I've watched Kyrou a lot with the Sting. Dube's a better player than he is. I firmly believe that.

But who is our 2C in this setup? Herein lies the problem. Can't dangle Backlund, he's our bonafide 3C.

Hopefully Sutter will work this out. 2C's a big problem. If Mangia alone addresses it, I hate to do it, but yeah...

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

What makes it hard for JG to perform at his undoubtedly high skill level, imo, is there is no one else for the competition to focus on. Shut him down, shut the Flames down.

Having more depth in the lineup helps a lot. We've had nothing to fall back on to offset it. Keep changing lines, etc, hasn't helped. JG has a target on his back all of the time and secondary scoring has been pitiful. Prospects like Pelletier and Zary could offset that, hopefully not too late. Coleman helps. Heck, even Pitlick helps if he's good for 15 goals. Every bit helps. A renewed Mony helps JG and Lindholm on the RW helps him.

More threats that you can't leave open to double team Johnny. Tkachuk always likes to play behind the net, no point having him with JG.

Pelletier would be good with Tkachuk, as would Zary...the wait sucks.

Dube, for me, is our wild card rn. He's a threat at his best, fast and smart. I hope this is his year, we need him. Excellent playmaker and vision, make it consistent and he's my bust loose candidate. I've watched Kyrou a lot with the Sting. Dube's a better player than he is. I firmly believe that.

But who is our 2C in this setup? Herein lies the problem. Can't dangle Backlund, he's our bonafide 3C.

Hopefully Sutter will work this out. 2C's a big problem. If Mangia alone addresses it, I hate to do it, but yeah...

 

What I found interesting this year was Gaudreau putting more shots on net.  Part of that was necessity, since Monahan was limited.  And the 3rd F was usually incapable of getting anything away.  I really haven't decided what the optimum line with him looks like.  

Gaudreau-Lindholm-Coleman

Mangiapane-Monahan-Tkachuk (OHL line)

 

That first line has a couple of players that can get open or take the puck to the net.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Playmakers will only have success if the rest of the line can raise their level.

We didn't see any combination of Gaudreau and Lindholm in any playoffs yet.

Call it mitigation, but really a playmaker is not going to have any success on their own.

 

Would I like to see Gaudreau play more like Mangiapane?

Sure, but I would rather see him have options.

Obviously, the belief is he is pass first, so he needs to take more low shots on net.

But the guys playing with him need to get open FFS.

The PP last year was predictable when Gio was out there.

JH passes to Gio who walks in or passes to Lindholm.

 

Anywat, Pelletier is a bit of Gaudreau and a bit of Mangiapane.

Smaller, more of a playmaker, but goes to the net.

Would like to see him get 10 games in the latter part of the season, after he has spent time as a pro.

 

Here's the thing with Gaudreau, at the College level he was more of a goal scorer.  Almost a goal per game.

 

His first NHL point was a goal,

 

He has (intermittently) had some very high goal seasons.

 

I agree, when he is at his best, he is a shooter.   Yes he can make plays, and good ones, but it's only effective when the opposition doesn't know if he's going to shoot or pass.   In close, you want him to be the shooter.      When he's in close, he usually is the shooter.    But whether he decides to position himself in close, well, that's a whole other conversation.   And that's just the regular season.     In the playoffs, I just don't know if it's realistic.

 

I judge our first rounders primarily by whether they can be top 6 players.   Preferably first liners.  Yeah, it's a high bar, I know.    While I've said my piece about the pick, I haven't ruled Pelletier out either.  He got skil.

[travel_dude]

23 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Here's the thing with Gaudreau, at the College level he was more of a goal scorer.  Almost a goal per game.

 

His first NHL point was a goal,

 

He has (intermittently) had some very high goal seasons.

 

I agree, when he is at his best, he is a shooter.   Yes he can make plays, and good ones, but it's only effective when the opposition doesn't know if he's going to shoot or pass.   In close, you want him to be the shooter.      When he's in close, he usually is the shooter.    But whether he decides to position himself in close, well, that's a whole other conversation.   And that's just the regular season.     In the playoffs, I just don't know if it's realistic.

 

I judge our first rounders primarily by whether they can be top 6 players.   Preferably first liners.  Yeah, it's a high bar, I know.    While I've said my piece about the pick, I haven't ruled Pelletier out either.  He got skil.

 

The problem with him in the O-zone is when he only goes to his LW side.  He's much more deadly on his off-wing.

[jjgallow]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The problem with him in the O-zone is when he only goes to his LW side.  He's much more deadly on his off-wing.

 

Completely agree, and he had some of his best seasons with coaches who allowed/encouraged creativity, starting with Hartley.

 

Sutter is more of a "You go be creative on your LW side" kind of guy lol.

 

Sutter's not wrong either.

 

You need strong defencemen and a two-way center  for that kind of nonsense to work.    We lack the strong defencemen, thus we cannot afford creativity, on top of that we lack the physicality to "mitigate" (sorry) Gaudreau.

 

And...we're not even looking for those pieces   (Flames still on eternal quest for a C).      So...could Gaudreau be a 100 point player?  We won't find out here.

 

Pelletier's a little tougher, a little less prone to these issues, but in the same breath I wish he had those problems.   Those Gaudreau problems are good problems to have.      If your player is young enough to build around.

[jjgallow]

 

Pelletier first star in Stockton's first win, with the goal.

[travel_dude]

26 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Pelletier first star in Stockton's first win, with the goal.

 

He needs to shine after a poor showing in camp.

But, that's kinda the player he is.

You would not at Q players and identify him as the number one player from the ranks; he is a player that coaches identify as one that brings you wins.

I think that when the year is done, the top players from the Heat are going to be Pelletier, Zary, Wolf and Ruzicka.

 

[conundrumed]

20 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

He needs to shine after a poor showing in camp.

But, that's kinda the player he is.

You would not at Q players and identify him as the number one player from the ranks; he is a player that coaches identify as one that brings you wins.

I think that when the year is done, the top players from the Heat are going to be Pelletier, Zary, Wolf and Ruzicka.

 

Both Kirkland and Duehr were the best in game 1 when I watched that one. Duehr shoulda had a couple and Kirkland was controlling play very well.

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, conundrumed said:

Both Kirkland and Duehr were the best in game 1 when I watched that one. Duehr shoulda had a couple and Kirkland was controlling play very well.

 

Kirkland seems to be trending towards a career AHL-er.  His best AHL season was close to 0.5 p/gp. 

I could be wrong, but it would seem that he would have hit his AHL stride by now if ever he was going to be NHL ready. 

Duehr should be in the NHL IMHO; he's NHL size and speed, and seems to have taking a huge step since last year.

 

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Both Kirkland and Duehr were the best in game 1 when I watched that one. Duehr shoulda had a couple and Kirkland was controlling play very well.

 

I completely agree but also find this a bit ridiculous, neither of these guys are ever going to meaningfully help the Flames.   They are AHLers in their prime, taking playing time away from Francis and...well, we'll see if they take time away from Zary.     I suppose it's nice that they helped with the win, I do get that.   But it's weird.     I also get that quite frankly we don't have many prospects to speak of.    And that's another conversation but while I appreciate the importance of winning, there are better ways.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Kirkland seems to be trending towards a career AHL-er.  His best AHL season was close to 0.5 p/gp. 

I could be wrong, but it would seem that he would have hit his AHL stride by now if ever he was going to be NHL ready. 

Duehr should be in the NHL IMHO; he's NHL size and speed, and seems to have taking a huge step since last year.

 

 

Agree on Kirkland, not on Duehr.    To be honest if he was good enough for the NHL he would be in the NHL.    The Flames have zero competition on RW.   He's an awkward situation of being a good AHLer that doesn't quite fit in the NHL

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

He needs to shine after a poor showing in camp.

But, that's kinda the player he is.

You would not at Q players and identify him as the number one player from the ranks; he is a player that coaches identify as one that brings you wins.

I think that when the year is done, the top players from the Heat are going to be Pelletier, Zary, Wolf and Ruzicka.

 

 

I hate to say it, I'm more interested in how Coronato does but it's hard not to notice Wolf.    Wolf has looked good, and he's so young.   Interested to see him beat the size odds.  The skills are obvious.

 

After Wolf, while I agree with your assessment that Pelletier and Ruzicka and Zary are up there, I think we have to At Least include Francis even if his first couple games have been uneventful.    I still think he will rise simply because he'll be given opportunities to to develop that the others won't.

[travel_dude]

18 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Agree on Kirkland, not on Duehr.    To be honest if he was good enough for the NHL he would be in the NHL.    The Flames have zero competition on RW.   He's an awkward situation of being a good AHLer that doesn't quite fit in the NHL

 

That's not exactly true.

The Flames made the easy decision to not waive Ritchie or Stone or Kylington and send down Duehr and Mackey.

Richardson is on IR and Pitlick is being counted on the roster.

12 active forwards including Coleman, Pitlick pushes someone out when he's back.

 

Duehr didn't have a great pro season in the AHL, so having a good camp meant nothing to Dutter.

Gawdin has been steady in the AHL, so natural progression.

[bosn111]

I see Sutter as a earned not given coach. That being said it is different from what many fans consider this type of coach to be. The big difference with his earned is that it comes from paying your dues, putting in the work over multiple years not just one good camp showing. This is why he seems to be a veterans coach. If Duehr has a good AHL season, continues to develop and shows well again at camp next fall, he may stick with the big club.

 

Veterans likely are considered to have paid their dues and that’s why they have earned their spot.

[jjgallow]

11 minutes ago, bosn111 said:

I see Sutter as a earned not given coach. That being said it is different from what many fans consider this type of coach to be. The big difference with his earned is that it comes from paying your dues, putting in the work over multiple years not just one good camp showing. This is why he seems to be a veterans coach. If Duehr has a good AHL season, continues to develop and shows well again at camp next fall, he may stick with the big club.

 

Veterans likely are considered to have paid their dues and that’s why they have earned their spot.

 

I think he is this yes, but within paramaters.  it's all a scale.

 

Phaneuf, he gave the keys to the kingdom to pretty quick.  Maybe too quick.

 

If you're capable and talented Sutter's going to give you minutes.    Sometimes I think Sutter actually just believes players do better with more development time.    The truth of the matter right now is that we don't have a lot to work with.

 

@travel_dude  on that note, when you're bringing Ritchie or Stone or Kylington into the equation, I mean technically you are right but you're just saying "X number of players are on all NHL rosters cause that's how it works".      It's not like any of those guys are notable enough that they'd be untouchable if we had a legit RW.    They ain't.          So yeah, X number of players will fill X spots.   But if X player is NHL material at the age of 23+, as a RW on the Flames, room will be made for him.

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Pelletier first star in Stockton's first win, with the goal.

 

Good to hear.  He's a for sure NHLer in my opinion but question remains how high up the lines he can play.  From what we saw at camp, he's a 3rd liner who can bring speed, energy, and some grit.  Not much offense.

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, jjgallow said:

 

I think he is this yes, but within paramaters.  it's all a scale.

 

Phaneuf, he gave the keys to the kingdom to pretty quick.  Maybe too quick.

 

If you're capable and talented Sutter's going to give you minutes.    Sometimes I think Sutter actually just believes players do better with more development time.    The truth of the matter right now is that we don't have a lot to work with.

 

@travel_dude  on that note, when you're bringing Ritchie or Stone or Kylington into the equation, I mean technically you are right but you're just saying "X number of players are on all NHL rosters cause that's how it works".      It's not like any of those guys are notable enough that they'd be untouchable if we had a legit RW.    They ain't.          So yeah, X number of players will fill X spots.   But if X player is NHL material at the age of 23+, as a RW on the Flames, room will be made for him.

 

We really don't know the conversation between BT and Dutter.

Would BT typically waive Ritchie and Stone to give roster flexibility?

Yeah, typically.

Would he send down waiver exempt player to avoid that decision?

Yeah, he tends to do that.

 

There is almost zero risk to waive Stone, Ritchie, Lewis, Richardson and even Gudbranson.

Maybe way too early to write off any of those players, but I am yet to see anything from Ritchie or Lewis to suggest otherwise.

Both can probably score a goal each.

Not much to look forward to from the 4th line is it?

[robrob74]

5 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Agree on Kirkland, not on Duehr.    To be honest if he was good enough for the NHL he would be in the NHL.    The Flames have zero competition on RW.   He's an awkward situation of being a good AHLer that doesn't quite fit in the NHL

I haven’t seen the preseason. But from all talking accounts I’ve heard was that Duehr made the team but ended up missing out because of the vets…

[travel_dude]

Nice OT goal from Pelletier....