Jakob Pelletier - 2019 1st round pick

[The_People1]

5 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

maybe not the most welcome post, but it is interesting to see that the Flames drafted someone who wasn't in Craig Button's first round rankings (Pelletier).

 

Unusual for the Flames to break rank with him, and after many successful drafts maybe a little alarming.

 

I'll say it....a year into this and it looks like Craig Button, not the Flames, was right.

 

FYI according to Button's list, the Flames should have drafted https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/335712/raphael-lavoie.

 

I.....kind of...wish they did.

 

Why would we draft a 6'-4" RHS RW who only knows how to score and do nothing else?

[JTech780]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

maybe not the most welcome post, but it is interesting to see that the Flames drafted someone who wasn't in Craig Button's first round rankings (Pelletier).

 

Unusual for the Flames to break rank with him, and after many successful drafts maybe a little alarming.

 

I'll say it....a year into this and it looks like Craig Button, not the Flames, was right.

 

FYI according to Button's list, the Flames should have drafted https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/335712/raphael-lavoie.

 

I.....kind of...wish they did.

 

Pelletier and Lavoie had the same point totals, the difference is that Pelletier can play in all situations and Lavoie has a reputation as being a lazy player, nothing have seen or read says that that has changed. The Flames biggest issue isn't not having a RHS forward or not having enough skill, it's not having enough skill that wants to compete every night. That's what Pelletier brings every game, he was the right choice.

 

I am glad they aren't listening to Button, there is a reason he doesn't have an NHL job and it's because he isn't very good at scouting. Here are his 1st and 2nd round picks GM of the Flames:

1st: Brent Krahn (9th), Chuck Kobasew (14th), Eric Nystrom (10th)

2nd: Kurtis Foster (40th), Jarret Stoll (46th) didn't sign with Calgary re-entered the draft, Andrei Taratuhkin (41st) never played a game, Andrei Medvedev (56th) never played a game, Brian McConnell (39th) never played a game.

[Thebrewcrew]

Lavoie slid, the Flames weren't the only team to pass on him. There were rumours of character and attitude issues, let EDM have him

[jjgallow]

36 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Pelletier and Lavoie had the same point totals, the difference is that Pelletier can play in all situations and Lavoie has a reputation as being a lazy player, nothing have seen or read says that that has changed. The Flames biggest issue isn't not having a RHS forward or not having enough skill, it's not having enough skill that wants to compete every night. That's what Pelletier brings every game, he was the right choice.

 

I am glad they aren't listening to Button, there is a reason he doesn't have an NHL job and it's because he isn't very good at scouting. Here are his 1st and 2nd round picks GM of the Flames:

1st: Brent Krahn (9th), Chuck Kobasew (14th), Eric Nystrom (10th)

2nd: Kurtis Foster (40th), Jarret Stoll (46th) didn't sign with Calgary re-entered the draft, Andrei Taratuhkin (41st) never played a game, Andrei Medvedev (56th) never played a game, Brian McConnell (39th) never played a game.

 

Those were truly aweful picks, but were they Button's picks?   Maybe they were, they are 20 years in history.

 

All I know is the last few years the Flames have drafted pretty well and were pretty well aligned with Craig Button.  Not sure who pulled who etc.

 

 

In terms of doing many things well there's really one thing you want to be great at, and that's playoff hockey.  Jakob gets rubbed out in playoff hockey and is ineffective.   And we're talking juniors, not even AHL or NHL.   So that pretty much tells you where it's headed.  Plus the fact that he really didn't improve this season.

 

It didn't have to be Lavoie, there were a Lot of players ranked higher.   However you slice it, when you run down the list of teams that picked after the Flames most are in a much better position right now.

[JTech780]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Those were truly aweful picks, but were they Button's picks?   Maybe they were, they are 20 years in history.

 

All I know is the last few years the Flames have drafted pretty well and were pretty well aligned with Craig Button.  Not sure who pulled who etc.

 

 

In terms of doing many things well there's really one thing you want to be great at, and that's playoff hockey.  Jakob gets rubbed out in playoff hockey and is ineffective.   And we're talking juniors, not even AHL or NHL.   So that pretty much tells you where it's headed.  Plus the fact that he really didn't improve this season.

 

It didn't have to be Lavoie, there were a Lot of players ranked higher.   However you slice it, when you run down the list of teams that picked after the Flames most are in a much better position right now.

 

Who is better that went after Pelletier? Foote is a one trick pony and barely put up a point a game. Suzuki again didn't produce in the OHL and is about as soft as they come. Tracey actually regressed this season. Beecher has 3rd line upside. Johnson is ok but nothing special. Pinto is good and there might be a case for drafting him over Pelletier. Kaliyev is lazy and soft and didn't get any better this year. Brink is small and not a very good skater. 

 

There wasn't playoffs this year so we don't know what Pelletier would have done in the playoffs.

[jjgallow]

23 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Who is better that went after Pelletier? Foote is a one trick pony and barely put up a point a game. Suzuki again didn't produce in the OHL and is about as soft as they come. Tracey actually regressed this season. Beecher has 3rd line upside. Johnson is ok but nothing special. Pinto is good and there might be a case for drafting him over Pelletier. Kaliyev is lazy and soft and didn't get any better this year. Brink is small and not a very good skater. 

 

There wasn't playoffs this year so we don't know what Pelletier would have done in the playoffs.

 

ok well calling a team captain and absolute force in the world juniors a one trick pony could be seen as a bit biased by some unless the trick you're referring to is winning the world juniors.

 

We're getting into a subjective area, and maybe I am just unhappy that we picked so late in the draft.   admittedly Pelletier wasn't off the board.   watching.

[JTech780]

40 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

ok well calling a team captain and absolute force in the world juniors a one trick pony could be seen as a bit biased by some unless the trick you're referring to is winning the world juniors.

 

We're getting into a subjective area, and maybe I am just unhappy that we picked so late in the draft.   admittedly Pelletier wasn't off the board.   watching.

 

Pelletier is a team captain as well. Foote was good in the WJC, but he wasn't a force by any stretch of the imagination, finishing 35th in points in the tournament. Pelletier was on pace to be on that team before an injury right before camp.

[Thebrewcrew]

I've got no problem with the Pelletier pick. His pts/g improved this year from 1.36 to 1.43. He's at 1.27pts/g for his junior career

 

In regards to the next two picks

Nolan Foote isn't even a career pt/g in the Western League. His lack of speed is concerning, he struggles to keep pace in junior.

Ryan Suzuki- has been a less productive junior than Pelletier 1.02pts/g. I don't care how talented he is, my tolerance for lazy players is very low

 

With Pelletier you have production as well as a guy with a functioning "give a darn meter" he's a guy that will bring his best every game

 

 

 

[sak22]

20 hours ago, JTech780 said:

 

Pelletier and Lavoie had the same point totals, the difference is that Pelletier can play in all situations and Lavoie has a reputation as being a lazy player, nothing have seen or read says that that has changed. The Flames biggest issue isn't not having a RHS forward or not having enough skill, it's not having enough skill that wants to compete every night. That's what Pelletier brings every game, he was the right choice.

 

I am glad they aren't listening to Button, there is a reason he doesn't have an NHL job and it's because he isn't very good at scouting. Here are his 1st and 2nd round picks GM of the Flames:

1st: Brent Krahn (9th), Chuck Kobasew (14th), Eric Nystrom (10th)

2nd: Kurtis Foster (40th), Jarret Stoll (46th) didn't sign with Calgary re-entered the draft, Andrei Taratuhkin (41st) never played a game, Andrei Medvedev (56th) never played a game, Brian McConnell (39th) never played a game.

First take a look at those classes.  Second take a look at his overall draft work and compare to the guy before and the guy after.  I'm not saying he did phenomenal, but in 3 drafts he picked up 3 guys who had at least 1 20 goal season with the Flames (Lombardi, Kobasew, Moss).  D. Sutter also had 3 (Phaneuf, Backlund, Ferland) but had 8 drafts.  Al Coates was 0 in 4 drafts, despite 2 top 10's.

 

Look at 2000.  I didn't like the Krahn pick but maybe injuries played a part, Foster and Stoll were good picks, poorly managed, but don't think Stoll not signing fell on Button as much as ownerships stance on rookie contracts, Hotchkiss pushed hard for the rookie cap in 2005.  2001, the only pick in the remainder of the 1st round to outscore Kobasew was RJ Umberger, who wouldn't have signed here either given.  Taratuhkin maybe could've played here if he stuck around.  2002, yes some better players than Nystrom still carved out a decent career and made good career earnings.  Also McElhinney was drafted, while not spectacular only Kidd has played more games for a goalie drafted and signed in Calgary in the last 30 years.  A lot of other mistakes obviously.  But, yes he does miss the mark on many prospects, but so does Bob McKenzie and central scouting and, you and me, and everyone here.

 

[cross16]

I too disagree with the take that Button is not a good scout, I think he is a very good scout. If you look at the talent level post Button to pre he improved it quite a bit and he should get more credit for the 04 team. He was the one who laid the ground work for that team with some very good low key moves that at the time you thought he was crazy, but they panned out well. His draft record is above average but let down by the fact they had some issue signing players but not sure where the fault lies for that. At the end of the day I think his eye for talent is strong and where he doomed himself as a GM was the business side of things. he is actually one of my favorite media scouts to follow. 

 

I'm pretty happy with Pelletier myself and so far he's actually progressing as one of the strongest of the later 1st round/early 2nd round picks. but a number of metrics. I think he has some of the highest upside of players taken in that range and with how wide open it was in the 20 -40 range it's very much splitting hairs here to argue one player over another. 

[travel_dude]

On 6/27/2020 at 5:26 PM, jjgallow said:

 

ok well calling a team captain and absolute force in the world juniors a one trick pony could be seen as a bit biased by some unless the trick you're referring to is winning the world juniors.

 

We're getting into a subjective area, and maybe I am just unhappy that we picked so late in the draft.   admittedly Pelletier wasn't off the board.   watching.

 

What exactly did he do to win the WJC?  2 assists in 7 games? 1 against the US and the other against Slovakia.

Big deal.

 

There is one difference not mentioned.

Lavoie is almost a full year older than Pelletier.

Might do better to compare Lavoie to Zavgorodny.

Basically the same age.

 

 

[jjgallow]

13 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

What exactly did he do to win the WJC?  2 assists in 7 games? 1 against the US and the other against Slovakia.

Big deal.

 

There is one difference not mentioned.

Lavoie is almost a full year older than Pelletier.

Might do better to compare Lavoie to Zavgorodny.

Basically the same age.

 

 

 

Those are good points, but are we expecting Pelletier to grow 7 inches taller and add 40 pounds of muscle with his age advantage?

 

It was 5 points in 7 games including 3 goals,

 

Anyway I don't want to bash our own prospects, I was just surprised and a year later seeing no real improvement from him.   That's a massive concern I'll try and not think about.

 

Bottom line is if Pellettier was doing what Foote did in WJC or what Lavoi is doing, everyone on here would be over the moon and ..we all know that

[travel_dude]

On 6/30/2020 at 11:40 AM, jjgallow said:

 

Those are good points, but are we expecting Pelletier to grow 7 inches taller and add 40 pounds of muscle with his age advantage?

 

It was 5 points in 7 games including 3 goals,

 

Anyway I don't want to bash our own prospects, I was just surprised and a year later seeing no real improvement from him.   That's a massive concern I'll try and not think about.

 

Bottom line is if Pellettier was doing what Foote did in WJC or what Lavoi is doing, everyone on here would be over the moon and ..we all know that

 

Well the injury kinda derailed his season, right?

I mean when the thread started in December he was 3rd in Q scoring.

 

5'9" isn't quite Phillips terratory, who has managed to become almost a p/gp player in 2 years in the AHL.

There's a reason why Lavoie fell, but I admit I though he was a late round pick that I had interest in.

I don't know those reasons, but I know when I watched the Memorial Cup final, I was left wanting more.

 

When I looked him up in Elite Prospects, it shows 2 assists in 7 games.

Same for Dobber.

Did I miss something?

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/335712/raphael-lavoie

 

The "bigger" issue for me is how the Flames choose to bring him to the NHL.

This should be a big year for him in Val d"Or.

We won't get to see much of him until next year, depending on the CHL.

[jjgallow]

6 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

 

When I looked him up in Elite Prospects, it shows 2 assists in 7 games.

Same for Dobber.

Did I miss something?

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/335712/raphael-lavoie

 

 

 

I think myself or one of us got confused with the other player we were talking about, Adam Foote

 

I'm really not trying to fully Satoshi Nakamoto on Pelletier, I'm just, you know...inclined that way.    He wasn't an off-the-board pick, and I'm okay with drafting smaller talented players.   But imho if you're going to go do that you go all-in, like Gaudreau...all or nothing.   It hurts when your first round picks become 3rd and 4th line fillers in their prime.   Not a waste per see, but....close.   That's my issue with the "does everything well" breed in the first round.

 

Bottom line is I'm glad we're stacked up for the 17th pick this year instead of 10+ teams later.   And I still would not be opposed to an upgrade.

[Crzydrvr]

4 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I think myself or one of us got confused with the other player we were talking about, Adam Foote

 

I'm really not trying to fully Satoshi Nakamoto on Pelletier, I'm just, you know...inclined that way.    He wasn't an off-the-board pick, and I'm okay with drafting smaller talented players.   But imho if you're going to go do that you go all-in, like Gaudreau...all or nothing.   It hurts when your first round picks become 3rd and 4th line fillers in their prime.   Not a waste per see, but....close.   That's my issue with the "does everything well" breed in the first round.

 

Bottom line is I'm glad we're stacked up for the 17th pick this year instead of 10+ teams later.   And I still would not be opposed to an upgrade.

 

I wouldn't really classify Pelletier as the stereotypical "safe" pick. That would be a Suzuki or Foote type player. Pelletier is more of a boom-bust guy a la Lavoie, Suzuki or Kaliyev. The difference is he has more work ethic than those 3 which makes him "safer" if such a thing exists.

 

I would say that if he pans out you're looking at a Gallagher or Anthony Beauvillier type 2nd line player, maybe a DeBrincat level complementary 1st liner if you're incredibly lucky, so he's an interesting mix of upside versus safety, because I think a lot of guys would say Lavoie is "safer" due to his NHL size and the fact he could conceivably turn into a 4th line depth guy. The thing I like about the recent Flames drafting is they're swinging for the fences while still looking for players that fit their goals character-wise.

 

There's by definition only one or two Gaudreaus every draft. If it were that easy to select a guy like that he'd be long gone before the pick, the reality is most guys like that bust just as well and if they were such sure things they're likely drafted in the top 5. Pelletier might just be another, smaller Bennett (which honestly is what he'd be looking at if his offense doesn't translate), but for where he stacks against his contemporaries one year later there's at best maybe one or two guys from the 28-45 range I would say had anywhere near as complete a season as Pelletier, which is a good sign. I'd very much say they went all or nothing because everything about the pick at the time screamed BPA rather than fit. If it wasn't about skill and character and potential, then why not just go with a big, skilled right-shot RW?

 

From my standpoint, there's literally no worries about Pelletier as of yet. Every milestone he's needed to hit, he's hit. Matched up against his peers, he stands out as a guy who has maintained his status post draft unlike other picks in his range. Attitude-wise, he brings way more to the table than almost anyone else around his draft spot. I would have been really mad with Lavoie, or Foote, or Kaliyev, for various different reasons, but Pelletier (who while not my favorite choice at the time) is a good pick. Being bigger or having one elite skill means absolutely nothing in the long run, it doesn't even make you more NHL ready. Just look at the development curve for Nolan's older brother with Tampa Bay, he's not going to be close to a lineup spot until possibly 2021-22.

 

Either way, where the Flames have really lost guys is at the NHL level, so we'll get a real litmus test for Pelletier in a year and a half. At that time I'm just hopeful they work to develop him instead of looking at him as "this is what he is, good enough for me" which they've been prone to do in the past.

[travel_dude]

14 minutes ago, Crzydrvr said:

...

Either way, where the Flames have really lost guys is at the NHL level, so we'll get a real litmus test for Pelletier in a year and a half. At that time I'm just hopeful they work to develop him instead of looking at him as "this is what he is, good enough for me" which they've been prone to do in the past.

Good to have you back Crzy.

I'm interested to see what we have in some of the farm hands.

The way they are handling Dube seems a bit off, but maybe I'm just seeing negatives..

We have apples, oranges and pears, plus a watermellon on the roster.

I'm not sure how they view guys like Phillips, Gawdin and Ruzicka but I suspect they are going safe this year.

 

I'm interested to see if there is a WJC, because it should be a great opportunity to see him play wth the best of him peers.

 

[jjgallow]

20 hours ago, Crzydrvr said:

 

I wouldn't really classify Pelletier as the stereotypical "safe" pick. That would be a Suzuki or Foote type player. Pelletier is more of a boom-bust guy a la Lavoie, Suzuki or Kaliyev. The difference is he has more work ethic than those 3 which makes him "safer" if such a thing exists.

 

I would say that if he pans out you're looking at a Gallagher or Anthony Beauvillier type 2nd line player, maybe a DeBrincat level complementary 1st liner if you're incredibly lucky, so he's an interesting mix of upside versus safety, because I think a lot of guys would say Lavoie is "safer" due to his NHL size and the fact he could conceivably turn into a 4th line depth guy. The thing I like about the recent Flames drafting is they're swinging for the fences while still looking for players that fit their goals character-wise.

 

There's by definition only one or two Gaudreaus every draft. If it were that easy to select a guy like that he'd be long gone before the pick, the reality is most guys like that bust just as well and if they were such sure things they're likely drafted in the top 5. Pelletier might just be another, smaller Bennett (which honestly is what he'd be looking at if his offense doesn't translate), but for where he stacks against his contemporaries one year later there's at best maybe one or two guys from the 28-45 range I would say had anywhere near as complete a season as Pelletier, which is a good sign. I'd very much say they went all or nothing because everything about the pick at the time screamed BPA rather than fit. If it wasn't about skill and character and potential, then why not just go with a big, skilled right-shot RW?

 

From my standpoint, there's literally no worries about Pelletier as of yet. Every milestone he's needed to hit, he's hit. Matched up against his peers, he stands out as a guy who has maintained his status post draft unlike other picks in his range. Attitude-wise, he brings way more to the table than almost anyone else around his draft spot. I would have been really mad with Lavoie, or Foote, or Kaliyev, for various different reasons, but Pelletier (who while not my favorite choice at the time) is a good pick. Being bigger or having one elite skill means absolutely nothing in the long run, it doesn't even make you more NHL ready. Just look at the development curve for Nolan's older brother with Tampa Bay, he's not going to be close to a lineup spot until possibly 2021-22.

 

Either way, where the Flames have really lost guys is at the NHL level, so we'll get a real litmus test for Pelletier in a year and a half. At that time I'm just hopeful they work to develop him instead of looking at him as "this is what he is, good enough for me" which they've been prone to do in the past.

 

Really glad to have you back!    I wish I had known sooner all I had to do was bash our first round picks to get you back in the fold, here I was wasting time in the goalie thread.

 

I do absolutely agree with the last part of this.....  as soon as the player looks strong enough for a 4th line role they get the player to change all their habits and develop them as a 4th line player.   Gaudreau turned out so well in part because US college kept him out of our development system, or I swear he'd be a checker right now.

 

Thanks very much for the feedback.  You're more optimistic than me but sometimes that's not a bad thing lol

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

I do absolutely agree with the last part of this.....  as soon as the player looks strong enough for a 4th line role they get the player to change all their habits and develop them as a 4th line player.   Gaudreau turned out so well in part because US college kept him out of our development system, or I swear he'd be a checker right now.

 

There are exceptions of course.

Mangiapane was kept to low minutes last year and was super efficient at scoring.

He earned his way onto the 2nd line this year.

Dube is sort of following that mold.

 

While the Flames model may not be great for some of the players we have brought in, I think you have to ask yourself how much of it is the players themselves.  Little guys like Gaudreau, Mangiapane and Dube have always been playing in the shadow of big kids.  They have that competetive drive to be the best player on the ice.  Huge chip.  That is my belief why Gaudreau and Mangiapane have become good to great players,  They had to skate faster, deke better and shoot more accurate to make up for the lack of relative strength.

 

Bigger guys like say Lavoie have been the biggest kids on the team.  They have not had to train as hard or learn the finer skills to get ahead.  When they get to the pro leagues, that means more than just a hard shot or being big.  When I look at the failed prospects, I see an alarming trend.  As soon as they hit the AHL, they regress and never seem to gain any traction.  Most or all go on to nothing careers.  Klimchuk is a perfect example.

 

It's the reason why I have great respect for players like Phillips who are the size of a players kid brother.  They find a way.  Pelletier is cut from that cloth.  He may not pan out, but I suspect he will be something closer to Mangiapane than Nemisz.. It's also why I see great potential in Zavgorodny.  

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

There are exceptions of course.

Mangiapane was kept to low minutes last year and was super efficient at scoring.

He earned his way onto the 2nd line this year.

Dube is sort of following that mold.

 

While the Flames model may not be great for some of the players we have brought in, I think you have to ask yourself how much of it is the players themselves.  Little guys like Gaudreau, Mangiapane and Dube have always been playing in the shadow of big kids.  They have that competetive drive to be the best player on the ice.  Huge chip.  That is my belief why Gaudreau and Mangiapane have become good to great players,  They had to skate faster, deke better and shoot more accurate to make up for the lack of relative strength.

 

Bigger guys like say Lavoie have been the biggest kids on the team.  They have not had to train as hard or learn the finer skills to get ahead.  When they get to the pro leagues, that means more than just a hard shot or being big.  When I look at the failed prospects, I see an alarming trend.  As soon as they hit the AHL, they regress and never seem to gain any traction.  Most or all go on to nothing careers.  Klimchuk is a perfect example.

 

It's the reason why I have great respect for players like Phillips who are the size of a players kid brother.  They find a way.  Pelletier is cut from that cloth.  He may not pan out, but I suspect he will be something closer to Mangiapane than Nemisz.. It's also why I see great potential in Zavgorodny.  

 

my only problem is that most of our best prospects and guys that make it and push forward are guys of that size. The team has been decent in finding forwards that are small. Our NHL roster is already too small. It isn’t that they get pushed around;  it’s that when the games get harder other teams just have to lean on them, another form of hooking that doesn’t get called as a penalty. In a long series that tires the team out. 
 

I get the Flames draft all kinds of sizes, but it seems like they like smaller guys. Even mock drafters seem to think they do, as I saw one who said, “the Flames aren’t afraid to go with small skilled players.”
 

There’s a small player on every line. 
 

Someone said earlier in this thread that maybe Pelletier could turn into Gallagher, which would be amazing. I like the pick but it’s just kind of hard to get excited for all of these smaller prospects who are knocking on the door. 
 

we are already a team that when getting pushed around they decide to change the game plan to show that they can play with the big boys in the league, instead of doing what works best. Maybe that’s learning... 

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

my only problem is that most of our best prospects and guys that make it and push forward are guys of that size. The team has been decent in finding forwards that are small. Our NHL roster is already too small. It isn’t that they get pushed around;  it’s that when the games get harder other teams just have to lean on them, another form of hooking that doesn’t get called as a penalty. In a long series that tires the team out. 
 

I get the Flames draft all kinds of sizes, but it seems like they like smaller guys. Even mock drafters seem to think they do, as I saw one who said, “the Flames aren’t afraid to go with small skilled players.”
 

There’s a small player on every line. 

 

I think you have to look at guys not playing on the top line to make a fair assessment.

And you need longer than one playoff round to really make a blanket statement.

We have lost in the playoffs for a lot of reasons, so simply saying Gaudreau was neutralized doesn't cut it.

The entire top line was a no show, but mostly the two taller than 5'9".

Tkachuk was a non factor and Backlund was not near his usual level.

Not to mention the D.

 

If a team ices a line of smurfs, you can expect that to be a difficult line to play against.

You can't hit them easily.

They may lose board battles initially, but they my still end up with the puck.

What's left?  Hooking, slashing and illegal hits to the head or boarding.

 

Back to the point.  The Flames have drafted player 5'10" or smaller 4 times in the past 7 drafts.

That doesn;t make it an alarming trend.

Only one player was selected higher than the 6th round.

Two of them are NHL regulars.

If you raise the bar to 5'11" then that counts for a lot higher percentage of NHL players.

 

  

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think you have to look at guys not playing on the top line to make a fair assessment.

And you need longer than one playoff round to really make a blanket statement.

We have lost in the playoffs for a lot of reasons, so simply saying Gaudreau was neutralized doesn't cut it.

The entire top line was a no show, but mostly the two taller than 5'9".

Tkachuk was a non factor and Backlund was not near his usual level.

Not to mention the D.

 

If a team ices a line of smurfs, you can expect that to be a difficult line to play against.

You can't hit them easily.

They may lose board battles initially, but they my still end up with the puck.

What's left?  Hooking, slashing and illegal hits to the head or boarding.

 

Back to the point.  The Flames have drafted player 5'10" or smaller 4 times in the past 7 drafts.

That doesn;t make it an alarming trend.

Only one player was selected higher than the 6th round.

Two of them are NHL regulars.

If you raise the bar to 5'11" then that counts for a lot higher percentage of NHL players.

 

  

 

I hear you, and yes, no one came to play, aside from Bennett and Mangiapane, and Valamaki. 
 

but I also see the way teams hand their forearms over our player and space gets really tight. It gets a lot heavier for our players to play, to skate with other guys basically hanging off of them, and that’s even harder for smaller players.
 

I know it’s mostly only my opinion on this messaging boards, but it’s how I see it and mostly saw it last year. Sure they didn’t come to play, but to me it was because they weren’t ready for the weight and speed the Avs brought, or maybe it was an unwillingness to play for Peters and maybe I am wrong. I just don’t think assembling such a small team makes for a cup contender. Small players can succeed, and you talk of bigger players being part of the problem, and they were, because they play soft. Monahan and Backlund are soft, unless Tkachuk drags Backlund into it, but that hasn’t happened for a few seasons now. 
 

I get that tall guys can be just as soft. There lies the problem with this team. Lucic, Bennett and Hamonic are the only guys the Flames have that play with grit. Tkachuk plays a different kind of game but is effective. 
 

I think what I am getting at is lately the NHL forwards they’ve developed are more on the smaller side. Ferland was big but his career is nearly over. Expect him dealt to the leafs if his injury woes continue. I feel the Flames aren’t good at picking out big skilled players with grit.

[travel_dude]

7 hours ago, robrob74 said:

I think what I am getting at is lately the NHL forwards they’ve developed are more on the smaller side. Ferland was big but his career is nearly over. Expect him dealt to the leafs if his injury woes continue. I feel the Flames aren’t good at picking out big skilled players with grit.

 

I think they tend to go for the guys with heart over the guys with size.  Guys like our Pettersen.  Not big, but not small.

One thing we need to look at is where the Flames have drafted in recent years.

Not a lot of 1st round picks.

The last time we had a 2nd rounder was 2016.

 

It's a numbers game for us.  Not a lot of bigger guys are selected in the early rounds, a lot of why is available players.

The bigger guys picked have a lesser chance of making the NHL because of where they ranked.

So the pool of players we have looks smaller because the best one took the ball and ran with it.

Ruzicka has a shot, but he's just starting.

Phillips is just that much further ahead.

Zavgorodny is going to do the same when he gets here.

 

 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think they tend to go for the guys with heart over the guys with size.  Guys like our Pettersen.  Not big, but not small.

One thing we need to look at is where the Flames have drafted in recent years.

Not a lot of 1st round picks.

The last time we had a 2nd rounder was 2016.

 

It's a numbers game for us.  Not a lot of bigger guys are selected in the early rounds, a lot of why is available players.

The bigger guys picked have a lesser chance of making the NHL because of where they ranked.

So the pool of players we have looks smaller because the best one took the ball and ran with it.

Ruzicka has a shot, but he's just starting.

Phillips is just that much further ahead.

Zavgorodny is going to do the same when he gets here.

 

 

 

it is hard. I feel like the flames are starting to fall back into the trade picks trap for the need to stay competitive. The drafting is better but when trading away picks there’s less chance of picking higher end players to fill the roster. 
 

another reason these smaller players are pushing the bar and making a push - I suppose...

[Thebrewcrew]

I actually like that the Flames are going for skill over anything else. You can get your Garnet Hathaway's every year in college free agency or via CHL free agents. I'm not besmirching Hathaway at all, but he's a replaceable part in your bottom 6. Is your draft really a success if you select 2 players that are career bottom 6ers?

 

The reality is, outside of the top 5 picks in the draft every player has flaws, you aren't getting a Byfield, with size and skating ability outside the top 5 very often. This isn'y an issue exclusive to the Flames either, as a whole the league is shifting to faster and smaller. You still need size, but if you can't keep up, it doesn't matter how big you are. 

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I actually like that the Flames are going for skill over anything else. You can get your Garnet Hathaway's every year in college free agency or via CHL free agents. I'm not besmirching Hathaway at all, but he's a replaceable part in your bottom 6. Is your draft really a success if you select 2 players that are career bottom 6ers?

 

The reality is, outside of the top 5 picks in the draft every player has flaws, you aren't getting a Byfield, with size and skating ability outside the top 5 very often. This isn'y an issue exclusive to the Flames either, as a whole the league is shifting to faster and smaller. You still need size, but if you can't keep up, it doesn't matter how big you are. 

 

I see that. I just feel that there are other teams with different philosophies, like the Blues, who draft a certain way, Or the Jets. Philly has a strategy as well. Some teams have varying success to drafting bigger. 
 

I don’t agree with Hathaway. If he was as replaceable as you claim, the Flames would’ve done it this year. They replaced him with Reider. I’d have preferred Hathaway. I don’t mind if they drafted players like him either, but also happy if they find him in free agency. 
 

don’t get me wrong, I hope Pelletier becomes a top 6 player and fills out like a bulky, speedy low Center of gravity player who ends up like Theo or Gallagher. I think Theo would be my all time favourite player so small isn’t something I think can deter a players ability. My problem is when the roster is made up of a lot of smaller players. Dichotomy much?