Jakob Pelletier - 2019 1st round pick

[zima]

Ok never mind I guess Im on drugs don't know how I ended up with the Chaisson trade on my search engine this morning since this wasa from 2016 lol

 

[travel_dude]

52 minutes ago, zima said:

Ok never mind I guess Im on drugs don't know how I ended up with the Chaisson trade on my search engine this morning since this wasa from 2016 lol

 

No harm, no foul.

You had me going for a minute

[robrob74]

19 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

It's possible but I think it would take a number 1. The intangibles he provides don't outweigh that contract with 2 more years on it. Plus your going to have to provide enough incentive for them to not select someone else and Gio is staring them in the face. He can provide the same leadership and also net them asset at the deadline. I don't see how you sway them without a 1 being involved and under no circumstances should the Flames do that. 

 

That being said, I don't think the chances are necessarily zero that the Flames could move Lucic. After his next signing bonus is paid out (which will happen this summer i'm just not sure when) he is only owed 2.5 and 1 mill in base salary the next 2 years with 1 more signing bonus of 3 million next summer. If the Flames are willing to pay the bonus this year I don't think its out of the question that a team could find value in that. It would break down to the new team only paying 6.5 million for 2 season of Lucic, which I would argue is fair value for this skillset, but he still counts 12 mill against the cap so big advantage to a team needing to get to the floor. 

 

While I don't think it's impossible, I would argue it is not likely. He still has a modified NTC (submits a 10 team list) so he has some say and then you have to convince the owners to pay 2.5 million for a player who isn't going to play for them and you are not going to get anything of value in return. It's still a tough sell. 

 

I was thinking more in line of a 3rd rounder or any of the extras we might have this year. They might even want him straight up, or even if slightly, a depth pick might do? Just wishful thinking. But I can see the reasoning that they'd expect a 1st rounder. Is the cap space worth it? Are there any players that can fill the role with similar to less money, yet do a bit more? He could be a good player to create a culture there, set the tone?

 

Like you said, maybe Lucic can be a good player for a team that needs to get to the salary floor. Tough one though, if he has a NTC. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

I was thinking more in line of a 3rd rounder or any of the extras we might have this year. They might even want him straight up, or even if slightly, a depth pick might do? Just wishful thinking. But I can see the reasoning that they'd expect a 1st rounder. Is the cap space worth it? Are there any players that can fill the role with similar to less money, yet do a bit more? He could be a good player to create a culture there, set the tone?

 

Like you said, maybe Lucic can be a good player for a team that needs to get to the salary floor. Tough one though, if he has a NTC. 

 

In a normal year, you have to offer a 1st to take a bad contract with term.  That's usually one that could be bought out.

No team is going to take a Skinner for just that.

Can't even buy it out right.

 

In an expansion year, the first cost is to get them to take a bad contract, usefull player or not.

The second cost is getting them to not take another contract.

Your best opportunity is with Lucic waiver for the draft.

After that, he's back to a full NMC.

 

The only possible trade I could see him even thinking about would be to PITTS.

That's only because they are more of a contender than us.

Not exactly a destination city for a Left Coaster.

Perhaps BOS, but I don't know if they go that direction again.

 

[cross16]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I was thinking more in line of a 3rd rounder or any of the extras we might have this year. They might even want him straight up, or even if slightly, a depth pick might do? Just wishful thinking. But I can see the reasoning that they'd expect a 1st rounder. Is the cap space worth it? Are there any players that can fill the role with similar to less money, yet do a bit more? He could be a good player to create a culture there, set the tone?

 

Like you said, maybe Lucic can be a good player for a team that needs to get to the salary floor. Tough one though, if he has a NTC. 

 

For me it's not worth it but I don't think it's ever wroth it. A first round pick is just too valuable to be giving up to clear cap space, especially in case of the Flames where really the only benefit to opening up that cap space is go into FA and try to find something. I don't view that as a good long term recipe for success. 

 

I can understand the points as to why Seattle would be interested and perhaps they are thinking like this. Can't say either way I just personally find it hard to believe, especially when Gio is sitting there. If the choice is between Gio and Lucic why take Lucic? Gio provides almost all the same intangibles, the same boost to the salary floor, but gives the added benefit of being able to be flipped at the deadline next year if Seattle is out of the playoffs for more assets. 

 

10 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

In a normal year, you have to offer a 1st to take a bad contract with term.  That's usually one that could be bought out.

No team is going to take a Skinner for just that.

Can't even buy it out right.

 

In an expansion year, the first cost is to get them to take a bad contract, usefull player or not.

The second cost is getting them to not take another contract.

Your best opportunity is with Lucic waiver for the draft.

After that, he's back to a full NMC.

 

The only possible trade I could see him even thinking about would be to PITTS.

That's only because they are more of a contender than us.

Not exactly a destination city for a Left Coaster.

Perhaps BOS, but I don't know if they go that direction again.

 

 

He has a NMC, but his NTC moves to a modified NTC where he submits an 8 team list of teams he can be traded to. 

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

For me it's not worth it but I don't think it's ever wroth it. A first round pick is just too valuable to be giving up to clear cap space, especially in case of the Flames where really the only benefit to opening up that cap space is go into FA and try to find something. I don't view that as a good long term recipe for success. 

 

I can understand the points as to why Seattle would be interested and perhaps they are thinking like this. Can't say either way I just personally find it hard to believe, especially when Gio is sitting there. If the choice is between Gio and Lucic why take Lucic? Gio provides almost all the same intangibles, the same boost to the salary floor, but gives the added benefit of being able to be flipped at the deadline next year if Seattle is out of the playoffs for more assets. 

 

 

He has a NMC, but his NTC moves to a modified NTC where he submits an 8 team list of teams he can be traded to. 

 

Yeah, was forgetting about the remaining years.

 

I would suspect that the teams he would submit a trade to may not be great partners for us in a trade.

Whatever the direction we go in for the expansion draft, I hope we don't throw away picks just to protect or take a certain player.

Expose Gio and Lucic and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

For me it's not worth it but I don't think it's ever wroth it. A first round pick is just too valuable to be giving up to clear cap space, especially in case of the Flames where really the only benefit to opening up that cap space is go into FA and try to find something. I don't view that as a good long term recipe for success. 

 

I can understand the points as to why Seattle would be interested and perhaps they are thinking like this. Can't say either way I just personally find it hard to believe, especially when Gio is sitting there. If the choice is between Gio and Lucic why take Lucic? Gio provides almost all the same intangibles, the same boost to the salary floor, but gives the added benefit of being able to be flipped at the deadline next year if Seattle is out of the playoffs for more assets. 

 

 

He has a NMC, but his NTC moves to a modified NTC where he submits an 8 team list of teams he can be traded to. 

 

 

I am definitely not doing it for a 1st rounder, only for a round 3 or later. I was just thinking of the Kraken were questioning whether they'd want him or not, and it took the 3rd to persuade them. I get that it's normally going to cost a bit more, but Lucic does add leadership and toughness. I just wonder if they want to set up a culture, much like the one he talks about in Boston that they developed when he was there. 

 

I also wonder why they'd want Giordano. It's good to expose him, but he would be on the last year or two of his career next year. Would he play into his 40s? maybe? I can see though, the flip at the trade deadline, but what could Giordano fetch at the TDL? I guess there's value there.

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, robrob74 said:

I am definitely not doing it for a 1st rounder, only for a round 3 or later. I was just thinking of the Kraken were questioning whether they'd want him or not, and it took the 3rd to persuade them. I get that it's normally going to cost a bit more, but Lucic does add leadership and toughness. I just wonder if they want to set up a culture, much like the one he talks about in Boston that they developed when he was there. 

 

I also wonder why they'd want Giordano. It's good to expose him, but he would be on the last year or two of his career next year. Would he play into his 40s? maybe? I can see though, the flip at the trade deadline, but what could Giordano fetch at the TDL? I guess there's value there.

 

We would likely just be exchanging one bad FA contract for another, plus losing the pick, imho.

 

Can't build teams out of the FA market, there's no quick fix to the mess BT's left.

 

Sometimes the best thing we can hope for is that he actually stays away from the FA market, and, seems he will since he's already killed our cap with it.

[travel_dude]

11 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

We would likely just be exchanging one bad FA contract for another, plus losing the pick, imho.

 

Can't build teams out of the FA market, there's no quick fix to the mess BT's left.

 

Sometimes the best thing we can hope for is that he actually stays away from the FA market, and, seems he will since he's already killed our cap with it.

 

Every team that ends up winning the cup has used both FA and trades.

It ain't the only thing, but let's not undersell it.

I'm not proposing we dive in, as we have issues to deal with that have us spending too much for lesser players.

If there happens to be a good price for a good player, why would you not do it?

You can't build a team solely on drafting.

[cross16]

15 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I am definitely not doing it for a 1st rounder, only for a round 3 or later. I was just thinking of the Kraken were questioning whether they'd want him or not, and it took the 3rd to persuade them. I get that it's normally going to cost a bit more, but Lucic does add leadership and toughness. I just wonder if they want to set up a culture, much like the one he talks about in Boston that they developed when he was there. 

 

I also wonder why they'd want Giordano. It's good to expose him, but he would be on the last year or two of his career next year. Would he play into his 40s? maybe? I can see though, the flip at the trade deadline, but what could Giordano fetch at the TDL? I guess there's value there.

 

 

I'm not even sure that they would pick Gio either. I'm just saying that if the argument is the Kraken could have interest in Lucic because of his intangibles/leadership etc than why not take Gio who can bring the same but does tie up in a bad contract for the next 2 years and could probably net you something at the deadline? If Gio continues to play next season as well as he finished this one he's probably going to be worth a 1st round pick at the deadline, at worst a 2 and a body. 

 

But at the same time I could still see Kylington being the pick. 

[travel_dude]

26 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

 

I'm not even sure that they would pick Gio either. I'm just saying that if the argument is the Kraken could have interest in Lucic because of his intangibles/leadership etc than why not take Gio who can bring the same but does tie up in a bad contract for the next 2 years and could probably net you something at the deadline? If Gio continues to play next season as well as he finished this one he's probably going to be worth a 1st round pick at the deadline, at worst a 2 and a body. 

 

But at the same time I could still see Kylington being the pick. 

 

If we managed to hold onto Gio, do you think that is an option for us?

Trade Gio at TDL for a 1st?

I know that is unlikely if we are seriously in the race, but it should be in BT's mind at least.

[cross16]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

If we managed to hold onto Gio, do you think that is an option for us?

Trade Gio at TDL for a 1st?

I know that is unlikely if we are seriously in the race, but it should be in BT's mind at least.

 

Unless they were well out of it (which I don't suspect they will be) I would highly doubt it. 

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Every team that ends up winning the cup has used both FA and trades.

It ain't the only thing, but let's not undersell it.

I'm not proposing we dive in, as we have issues to deal with that have us spending too much for lesser players.

If there happens to be a good price for a good player, why would you not do it?

You can't build a team solely on drafting.

 

ok, yes it has it's place, but LOTs and lots of Stanley cup winners never ever ever pulled a Lucic deal.

 

The last Stanley Cup winner, Tampa (who seems to be doing a lot of that), is almost Entirely self drafted.  Sure they have made some trades here and there but very minor ones, and they just Don't pull Lucic deals.   I don't think it can be over-stated how brutal it is to blow up your cap over someone who is not generational.

 

IMHO, as much as I despise them (it was in and I don't forget), they do it right.  And yes those 5 years of rebuilding, imho that sometimes is necessary if the cupboards are bare.   The biggest mistake with our rebuild is we stopped too soon.

 

On that note, Tampa's most memorable FA signing was Tyler Johnson.   Who they got at entry level, because of his size.   I think we should be doing a lot more of this in the off season.   Possibly less in the first round. 

[travel_dude]

10 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

The last Stanley Cup winner, Tampa (who seems to be doing a lot of that), is almost Entirely self drafted.  Sure they have made some trades here and there but very minor ones, and they just Don't pull Lucic deals.   I don't think it can be over-stated how brutal it is to blow up your cap over someone who is not generational.

 

 

Nobody is defending the Lucic trade.

Ignore the Sergachev and Shattenkirk non-drafting if you like.

They won the cup because of signed and traded-for players, not in spite of them.

Vegas is almost entirely a trade and signing team.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Nobody is defending the Lucic trade.

Ignore the Sergachev and Shattenkirk non-drafting if you like.

They won the cup because of signed and traded-for players, not in spite of them.

Vegas is almost entirely a trade and signing team.

 

ok, but...they didn't....lol.   Are we talking about Tampa? I mean look at their top goalie, top D, top forwards, their top 10 scorers, they are either entirely self drafted or almost entirely.   That's how they won the cup.  And yes the 5 year rebuild is brutal but there are worse fates.

 

Vegas is an expansion team lol yes if you get to pick a player from every team in the league you're going to have a different dynamic and they have no cups.

[sak22]

Tampa is definitely a model for building through the draft or internally.  But the thought their model can be easily replicated is pure moronic.  They got a #1 in a good year, if you take all #1's since the 21st century I put Stamkos only behind Crosby, McDavid and Ovechkin outright, and within the likes of Matthews, MacKinnon and Kane, but above everyone else.  The year they got #2 they probably got arguably the best #2 in this century, the only debate is whether its him or Malkin.  Those #1 and #2's don't come every year.  Then they get a future Art Ross trophy winner in round #2, easy to find those right?  Exactly how many Art Ross trophy winners have come out of the second round or later in the last 20 years outside Kucherov?  2 Martin St. Louis and Jamie Benn (who probably only won because Crosby missed 5 games).  Then you get Brayden Point a 90 point center in the 3rd round, theres only how many else in the league right now?

[travel_dude]

47 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

ok, but...they didn't....lol.   Are we talking about Tampa? I mean look at their top goalie, top D, top forwards, their top 10 scorers, they are either entirely self drafted or almost entirely.   That's how they won the cup.  And yes the 5 year rebuild is brutal but there are worse fates.

 

Vegas is an expansion team lol yes if you get to pick a player from every team in the league you're going to have a different dynamic and they have no cups.

 

The only absolutes are the team wasn't entirely through drafting and Vegas was built mostly through trades and signings.

Certainly, they had top scorers drafted over a long period of time.

Certainly, the contributions by non-drafted players played a big part in winning the cup.

 

Neither team is a contender with just drafted players or just traded for players.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

The only absolutes are the team wasn't entirely through drafting and Vegas was built mostly through trades and signings.

Certainly, they had top scorers drafted over a long period of time.

Certainly, the contributions by non-drafted players played a big part in winning the cup.

 

Neither team is a contender with just drafted players or just traded for players.

 

Well, the absolutes are Vegas is not a cup winner nor can their model be emulated by anyone but an expansion team

 

In terms of Tampa, I just...can't really see an arguement for how the FA market (Tyler Johnson was a scouting thing) had much of an impact if any.

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/lightning

 

Sergachev and McDonagh, yes, they picked up two really good D, and these guys absolutely made a difference, but these were trades.  Trades from assets they developed.   It was kind of like the opposite of what the Flames do with D lol.

 

I don't mean to belabor the point, we all know FA has its place and that the Lucic signing killed our cap (it's like management just saying meh we don't care about those years).

 

I just want to be clear that you really can build cup winners almost entirely from drafting and development and this should Always be plan A.   With a footnote that you should never be afraid to:

1.  Make trades, especially for defence

2.  Use a first on a goalie

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I just want to be clear that you really can build cup winners almost entirely from drafting and development and this should Always be plan A.   With a footnote that you should never be afraid to:

1.  Make trades, especially for defence

2.  Use a first on a goalie

 

In hindsight, it would have been great to pick Vas.

He wouldn't be playing in PITTS.

 

If your goal is to win one or possibly two cups at any cost, Tampa is a great model.

Be fortunate enough to have a team take a cap dump and give you a 1st rounder. 

Be able to play with the cap to have an actual cap of $98m this season.

Amazing the timing of it.

 

A 1st, 3rd and a 4th to get a D-man at 25% salary.

Smart cap management.

[robrob74]

7 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

 

I'm not even sure that they would pick Gio either. I'm just saying that if the argument is the Kraken could have interest in Lucic because of his intangibles/leadership etc than why not take Gio who can bring the same but does tie up in a bad contract for the next 2 years and could probably net you something at the deadline? If Gio continues to play next season as well as he finished this one he's probably going to be worth a 1st round pick at the deadline, at worst a 2 and a body. 

 

But at the same time I could still see Kylington being the pick. 

 

 

I guess Giordano's level of play is closer to his contract and can play 2nd pair. But I guess that's only for one year instead of two. Two years is a lot for a team like us, because we need the Cap space, but the Kraken could likely need to get to the cap floor. 

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I guess Giordano's level of play is closer to his contract and can play 2nd pair. But I guess that's only for one year instead of two. Two years is a lot for a team like us, because we need the Cap space, but the Kraken could likely need to get to the cap floor. 

 

Cap floor isn't going to be a reason to take a crap contract unless it comes with a sweetener.

They can deal with 31 teams to do that, separate from the expansion draft. 

Gio at least offers contract value close to his production.

 

Don't get me wrong, if they select Lucic, I will be smiling.

I'll be okay with them picking Gio, but only because it reduces the cap by $6.75m for one year.

[cross16]

20 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I guess Giordano's level of play is closer to his contract and can play 2nd pair. But I guess that's only for one year instead of two. Two years is a lot for a team like us, because we need the Cap space, but the Kraken could likely need to get to the cap floor. 

 

Once he was separated from Rasmus he played like a top pairing dman. Over the last 25 games of the season, looking at his ranking at 5 on 5 among Dmen in the league:

 

14th in Expected GF% 

17th in CorsiF%

10th in Scoring ChanceF%

29th in Goals/60

 

I don't love his contract and I'm fine moving on but he' really isn't underperforming his contract by very much. You could argue he's actually still good value. 

[travel_dude]

50 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Once he was separated from Rasmus he played like a top pairing dman. Over the last 25 games of the season, looking at his ranking at 5 on 5 among Dmen in the league:

 

14th in Expected GF% 

17th in CorsiF%

10th in Scoring ChanceF%

29th in Goals/60

 

I don't love his contract and I'm fine moving on but he' really isn't underperforming his contract by very much. You could argue he's actually still good value. 

 

So, he was paired with Tanev mostly when moved from playing with Ras?

On a side note, Tanev's high levels suffered a bit playing with Gio.

 

I'm not discounting what he did this year, but unless he plays with our top pairing guy, we have seen a decline.

Still good value for this team.

[zima]

I think the price for an average D in the NHL is over 4M now adays and I think Gio still brings something to the table and I sure don't want BT doing any more trades he has failed in almost every trade he has done almost perhaps the Hamilton trade wasn't a total lose but his trade of Kulack was a waste and the Bennett trade was nothing more than incompetent I just hope they remove him before he does any more Damage. If we allow BT to trade Gio might as well let the Kaken take him. Sorry no faith in BT's ability to make decisions when it comes to trading I don't know why most of you are willing to let BT make trading decisions?    

[cross16]

35 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

So, he was paired with Tanev mostly when moved from playing with Ras?

On a side note, Tanev's high levels suffered a bit playing with Gio.

 

I'm not discounting what he did this year, but unless he plays with our top pairing guy, we have seen a decline.

Still good value for this team.

 

They don't appear to. Across the board Tanev was better with Gio than without. That being said it follows the same path of the team that all of the improvement can at the defensive side of the puck. Small change offensively, but I don't think it's fair to say he suffered. He continued his high level of play and Gio got better as a result. 

 

Andersson had a really poor year so while I do think it's fair to question the value of a 6.75million dman needing a change in partner to get going, there is some fairness too it as well given how Rasmus played.