Jakob Pelletier - 2019 1st round pick

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I see that. I just feel that there are other teams with different philosophies, like the Blues, who draft a certain way, Or the Jets. Philly has a strategy as well. Some teams have varying success to drafting bigger. 
 

I don’t agree with Hathaway. If he was as replaceable as you claim, the Flames would’ve done it this year. They replaced him with Reider. I’d have preferred Hathaway. I don’t mind if they drafted players like him either, but also happy if they find him in free agency. 
 

don’t get me wrong, I hope Pelletier becomes a top 6 player and fills out like a bulky, speedy low Center of gravity player who ends up like Theo or Gallagher. I think Theo would be my all time favourite player so small isn’t something I think can deter a players ability. My problem is when the roster is made up of a lot of smaller players. Dichotomy much?

 

Hathaway was getting a raise here or elsewhere.

He'll be around 32 by the time this deal expires.

You can't pay that much for grit when you also have Lucic and Bennett and Tkachuk. 

 

Every team has it's own set of standards for drafting players.

The scouts make the case for the BPA's.

Often you miss out on the guy you want by a single spot.

I haven't seen that may gems that we missed out on.

We picked Valimaki over Thomas, who may be more than a 3rd liner.

Missed out in the McDavid year on Aho, but got Ras.

 

How a team drafts is often a reflection on the team.

Slower, grinding teams prefer grinding forwards.

Fast teams prefer skilled, smaller ones.

 

[cross16]

The interesting thing is if you are putting the Blues up as the template to follow you are proving BrewCrew's point. The Blues don't really draft for size (especially when you take out Petrangelo at 4th overall) and most of the players on their team that they've drafted are more skilled than sized. They went to the free agent market or trades to get players like Sundqvist, Thornburn and Schenn to make their team tough.  If you look at their drafts you won't find a fixation on size. Obviously them finding Paryenko helps too and thta was a great pick, but it's not like the Flames haven't tired to find guys like that either. 

 

I'm with Brewcrew, the flames don't focus on smaller players they focus on skilled players but the problem being when you are drafting high in the draft it's harder to find players who are both big and skilled. They've rolled the dice on guys like Ruzicka, Posposil, trying to get the combination but it isn't easy. 

[jjgallow]

17 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

There are exceptions of course.

Mangiapane was kept to low minutes last year and was super efficient at scoring.

He earned his way onto the 2nd line this year.

Dube is sort of following that mold.

 

While the Flames model may not be great for some of the players we have brought in, I think you have to ask yourself how much of it is the players themselves.  Little guys like Gaudreau, Mangiapane and Dube have always been playing in the shadow of big kids.  They have that competetive drive to be the best player on the ice.  Huge chip.  That is my belief why Gaudreau and Mangiapane have become good to great players,  They had to skate faster, deke better and shoot more accurate to make up for the lack of relative strength.

 

Bigger guys like say Lavoie have been the biggest kids on the team.  They have not had to train as hard or learn the finer skills to get ahead.  When they get to the pro leagues, that means more than just a hard shot or being big.  When I look at the failed prospects, I see an alarming trend.  As soon as they hit the AHL, they regress and never seem to gain any traction.  Most or all go on to nothing careers.  Klimchuk is a perfect example.

 

It's the reason why I have great respect for players like Phillips who are the size of a players kid brother.  They find a way.  Pelletier is cut from that cloth.  He may not pan out, but I suspect he will be something closer to Mangiapane than Nemisz.. It's also why I see great potential in Zavgorodny.  

 

I would agree, it's not black and white.  I'd also like to add that perhaps things improved in that regard under Ward (ie., Mangiapane).   I personally believe in Ward and I don't think he's ever gotten enough credit.   He's just gradually risen to the top because of...well..competence.

 

In terms of our development system, the more of these guys we have the better.  I don't care how big our development system is...if it's all skill, that's great.   Because I do believe the NHL, in general, undervalues smaller players and I support taking advantage of that in the draft.

 

The idea, however, that you can just make an entire team of these players.....is a bit of an issue.   It's just not doable, you do need to trade some off and the Flames have struggled there.

 

Here's the thing.  Mangiapane is a 6th round pick success story.    If Pelletier turns out like him, and I'm thinking that's near his upside....it is....harder.....to call that a success story in the first round.   I'm not going to call it a failure.   But there are loads of these talented guys in every round, so to take them in first they have to be Really special and I just didn't personally see it with Pelletier.  I'm happy to be proven wrong and I hope he does well.

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I would agree, it's not black and white.  I'd also like to add that perhaps things improved in that regard under Ward (ie., Mangiapane).   I personally believe in Ward and I don't think he's ever gotten enough credit.   He's just gradually risen to the top because of...well..competence.

 

In terms of our development system, the more of these guys we have the better.  I don't care how big our development system is...if it's all skill, that's great.   Because I do believe the NHL, in general, undervalues smaller players and I support taking advantage of that in the draft.

 

The idea, however, that you can just make an entire team of these players.....is a bit of an issue.   It's just not doable, you do need to trade some off and the Flames have struggled there.

 

Here's the thing.  Mangiapane is a 6th round pick success story.    If Pelletier turns out like him, and I'm thinking that's near his upside....it is....harder.....to call that a success story in the first round.   I'm not going to call it a failure.   But there are loads of these talented guys in every round, so to take them in first they have to be Really special and I just didn't personally see it with Pelletier.  I'm happy to be proven wrong and I hope he does well.

 

Gaudreau vs Monahan.

Both are success stories.

Maybe Monahan is not a top C in the league, but he is good player.

 

Pelletier vs Mangiapane.

Hard to call a late 1st to be anything other than success if he reaches 2nd line in the NHL.

All the signs were there for Mangiapane to be that player if he could translate it to the NHL.

The same signs are there for Zavgorodny and Phillips.

 

The big difficulty is fitting them in a position to succeed.

 

I guess to be fair, you have to look at the 2019 draft on the whole.  Who among the top 31 players drafted do you see as being really special?  Maybe a small handful, none of which were even available when we were picking.  McMichael was about the best late round player available, but we will never know if he was going to get called.  Of those "special" players, do any of them have a higher potential than Pelletier?  Maybe a smaller list.

[Crzydrvr]

On 7/2/2020 at 8:06 PM, jjgallow said:

 

You're more optimistic than me but sometimes that's not a bad thing lol

 

I've had a couple years more experience under my belt now so I feel like I've mellowed out a lot more with regards to player evaluation. A few years ago my ND lists were closer to real NHL lists in length, now I find I'm a lot more forgiving. Plus I'm a Flames homer, so doubly so for our guys!

 

Having seen a ton of kids now, we can pretend all we want about drafting but the reality is no one ever really knows. The guys who clearly have the talent and clearly have the drive will always go top 10, but the rest of the kids are a complete guess. Some of them figure it out and will pass guys who had shown their stuff earlier and were drafted high as a result, some never will. All we can do is throw a dart at something we like and hope for the best. We're all just hoping the kids we like are 60-40 success rates rather than 50-50, because so much of development comes down to opportunity, organization, etc. It's very very difficult to separate bad drafting and scouting versus bad luck and bad development, and a guy who would've succeeded in one spot can easily fail elsewhere and vice versa. There's never a black and white answer and the people that pretend there is are both wrong and full of ****.

[JTech780]

Pelletier with 3 more assists tonight, 5 points in his first 2 games this season.

[travel_dude]

32 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Pelletier with 3 more assists tonight, 5 points in his first 2 games this season.

 

Not sure of the timing of everything like WJC camp, Flames camp, NHL season, but I can see him making a push to be on the starting night roster.

9 games to see where he is.

He could really surprise, but the depth chart could push him off.

Probably a good thing if he he doesn't stay.

 

Really, we have guys closer to NHL than him just based on experience.

Gawdin for sure.

Maybe Phillips.

Not sure about Ruzicka, but I hope they give him time in the AHL if that's even a thing.

Then there's the Baby Faced Assassin Tuulola.

4th line possible, since he has the size.

 

[cross16]

On 10/3/2020 at 8:11 PM, JTech780 said:

Pelletier with 3 more assists tonight, 5 points in his first 2 games this season.

 

3 Primary assists too. Good start with the new team and as captain.

 

He's too good for junior but hopefully a good start gets him in the good books for Team Canada. Would be great to see him play a role there. 

[cross16]

Q Season on hold for 2 weeks due to COVID

 

 

[JTech780]

Pelletier has been great at the WJC. He reminds me a lot of Dube. He is quick, he is all over the puck, he is good defensively. He is just relentless in his puck pursuit. 

[cross16]

I like watching Pelletier play, he is just so involved in the play and looking to make something happen on every shift. I'm still not sure he will make it but he is the type of player you root really hard for. 

[pikey7883]

I think the pass to cozens at the end of the game epitomizes Pelletier. He is able to play with top tier talent, but at the end of the day, he’s a great support guy, he’s not “the guy”. But like Jtech said, another Dube on our team is not a big problem to have.

[cross16]

This is something i've liked in both Pelletier and Zary this tournament, their versatility. They've been used in shutdown roles, top lines roles, special teams and when looking for a spark they generally move up the lineup not down. A lot of faith in both of those players from the coaching staff. 

 

For me, it shows the qualities the Flames are looking for in the draft, intelligence, compete and skill. You need all 3 to gain the truth of coaches and being able to be utilized the way both have. Doesn't mean it's perfect but for me is it nice to see the Flames prioritizing the right qualities. 

[sak22]

 

Definitely a guy you want to root for.

[JTech780]

10 minutes ago, sak22 said:

 

Definitely a guy you want to root for.

 

I was a Pelletier fan going into this tournament and I only became a bigger fan of his after watching him at this tournament. He played great, he played with heart. He also seemed like a glue guy on that team and a leader. This further shows what kind of character he has. Not sure what his upside is going to be at the next level, but I do think he will be a NHL player for a long time.

[cross16]

I came away with the same conclusion, it's really difficult for me to see Pelletier not being an NHL player. He just has too well rounded a game, too competitive and the right character. 

 

I do think his ceiling is a little lower than I previously thought but I think he'll get there and has a high probability of wearing a letter at some point too. He's a pretty impressive kid. 

[Thebrewcrew]

So impressed with Pelletier, both as a leader and as a player. 

 

I think he will be really close next year. In fact, he's likely got a good chance at claiming the spot of whoever is claimed by Seattle.

 

Not sure how high the upside is, I've always kinda used Yanni Gourde as a comp for him. Plays with some jam, has some skill and will have the ability to contribute, but likely not a driver. Can play up and down the lineup as well. Not bad if that's what Pelletier is as a late 1st rounder.

[travel_dude]

7 hours ago, cross16 said:

I came away with the same conclusion, it's really difficult for me to see Pelletier not being an NHL player. He just has too well rounded a game, too competitive and the right character. 

 

I do think his ceiling is a little lower than I previously thought but I think he'll get there and has a high probability of wearing a letter at some point too. He's a pretty impressive kid. 

 

I wonder if he has the Gaudreau touch for finding players open.

Sure, I think he could score, but I think his game is more setup.

More forechecking.

It's hard to get a read on players in the WJC.

Certain comentators were gaga over certain players, while others were 2nd thoughts.

What I saw I liked.

I thought he was well above Holloway.

Other players seemed to only be noticeable when they were attacking.

Ah, we shall see.

Maybe 2021/22. 

[jjgallow]

I liked what I saw.

 

I think I am finally warming up to Pelletier after world juniors, seeing what he can do at that level.

 

I don't see him being a game changing dynamo at the NHL level but I do see him having some pretty high potential as ... a role player, but one of the better role players.

 

For a 26th overall pick, while I might want more I can't really expect more than that.

[robrob74]

7 hours ago, jjgallow said:

I liked what I saw.

 

I think I am finally warming up to Pelletier after world juniors, seeing what he can do at that level.

 

I don't see him being a game changing dynamo at the NHL level but I do see him having some pretty high potential as ... a role player, but one of the better role players.

 

For a 26th overall pick, while I might want more I can't really expect more than that.

 

and I think that is what the Flames have been lacking. I don’t know if it’s the coaches not assigning roles or the lack of players to fill roles, the team has little to no guys to play certain roles. We need players with energy, guys who can go out to outwork other team’s players, kill a penalty and do what it takes to win. We have two or three players who are like that, maybe four:

 

Bennett, Andersson, then Dube and/or Mangiapane. 

maybe the additions this off-season could add to that. That’s just not enough. I hope the core can learn to play that way. Lindholm is a guy who I hope can step up. A lot say Tkachuk’s that kinda guy but I don’t think he’s gotten there yet in the Playoffs. Play-in was good. He’s still young and he can’t do it alone. He needs his line mates to push too. Hope Lindholm can step up.

[cross16]

Pelletier is up to 8th in Pts/game in the Q. 12th overall in points but 8th in points/game with about half of the players above him are over agers. 

 

However, even cooler than that is who is down in 11th place. Flames 5th rounder in the last draft, Ryan Francis, is 11th in the Q for pts/game. 

[pikey7883]

On a positive note we have this guy, good thing BT doesn’t know how to choose winners, lol

 

 

[travel_dude]

21 minutes ago, pikey7883 said:

On a positive note we have this guy, good thing BT doesn’t know how to choose winners, lol

 

 

 

The downside is he is a small LW.

If he was a natural RW, I would not even worry about size. 

[pikey7883]

12 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The downside is he is a small LW.

If he was a natural RW, I would not even worry about size. 

Well maybe that’s where our heart of the team is going to be. If our LW of the future was Tkachuk-Mang-Pelletier (that’s not terrible) we just need to add size to the RW side (preferably shoot first guys)

 

***edit*** this is also one of my fears of a Johnny for Konecny trades. 

[jjgallow]

 

There should be no worries, we should be able to just trade him for a position that we need.   

 

There's nothing wrong with drafting BPA as long as you don't get emotionally attached to the prospects and refuse to deal them.   

 

Include him in a deal for a similarly aged prospect in goal, RHD, or even RHW.   For similar talent level we might have to pay a little extra.  So do that.

 

Where we get into trouble is we repeatedly find "diamonds in the rough" that are all smallish LWs, and we just go with that like they should all be on the same NHL team.

 

It's not fair to them or us.