Burn it Down?

[MAC331]

4 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Right that's the ideal path forward but like you said, we have no more futures to trade.  Who is worth anything in our system that can get us what we need, ie stud goaltending, stud C, and more RHS RD upgrades?  The sane strategy is to draft those missing pieces ourselves.  

 

Something has to give because as much as ownership doesn't want to ice a poor team, that's what we kind of have right now.

 

And best D, how many more years is left in the tank?

What a bunch of sad sacks we have on this forum. This is not a poor team and it is loaded with talent that hasn't been put in the best formation to succeed IMO.

I am looking squarely at this coaching staff to start making better decisions.

Goaltending was always going to be our achillies heel if Smith didn't perform. I don't think he will remain as bad as he has been so far but again BP needs to get the best arrangement for our in front of him and Rittich. Go FLAMES Go

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

5 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Right that's the ideal path forward but like you said, we have no more futures to trade.  Who is worth anything in our system that can get us what we need, ie stud goaltending, stud C, and more RHS RD upgrades?  The sane strategy is to draft those missing pieces ourselves.  

 

Something has to give because as much as ownership doesn't want to ice a poor team, that's what we kind of have right now.

 

And best D, how many more years is left in the tank?

Hopefully enough for someone like Hanifin, Ras or Valimaki to take the reigns.

 

As for the dreaded T word. It guarantees you nothing. After the last few years do you think the general fanbase is going to want to hear that management has decided to roll the dice with the Oilers approach to success? The core is there, it just needs some strategic upgrades and maybe some healthy scratches to get the message across since I not sure the kick in the a** approach works anymore.

[The_People1]

6 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

What a bunch of sad sacks we have on this forum. This is not a poor team and it is loaded with talent that hasn't been put in the best formation to succeed IMO.

I am looking squarely at this coaching staff to start making better decisions.

Goaltending was always going to be our achillies heel if Smith didn't perform. I don't think he will remain as bad as he has been so far but again BP needs to get the best arrangement for our in front of him and Rittich. Go FLAMES Go

 

"Loaded with talent" is a bit generous.  We have 4 second lines that we can roll out so it's great forward depth.

 

Our D is in shambles and we have no quality goaltender.

[travel_dude]

44 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Right that's the ideal path forward but like you said, we have no more futures to trade.  Who is worth anything in our system that can get us what we need, ie stud goaltending, stud C, and more RHS RD upgrades?  The sane strategy is to draft those missing pieces ourselves.  

 

Something has to give because as much as ownership doesn't want to ice a poor team, that's what we kind of have right now.

 

And best D, how many more years is left in the tank?

 

For the next two years we have 2x1st and a 2nd.  Ether of those firsts is valuable.  Not that I recommend for the 2019 draft, but the next one could be in play.  You need to keep Gio for this season.  

I would say that Bennett, Backlund, Frolik, Janko, Stone, Brodie and Hamonic are in play first.

Has to make the team better short or long term, or both.

Not all of them, but pick the ones that get you what you need (goalie, picks, prospects, depth centre).

 

 

[kehatch]

36 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

What a bunch of sad sacks we have on this forum. This is not a poor team and it is loaded with talent that hasn't been put in the best formation to succeed IMO.

I am looking squarely at this coaching staff to start making better decisions.

Goaltending was always going to be our achillies heel if Smith didn't perform. I don't think he will remain as bad as he has been so far but again BP needs to get the best arrangement for our in front of him and Rittich. Go FLAMES Go

 

Where would Monahan be on the two last Stanley Cup rosters? 3 line C? Gaudreau might be a bit higher on the line up, but where would he rank in terms of value to the team? Fifth? Sixth? Our D is scary and our Goal is bad. We aren't loaded with talent. 

 

These are good players. But when you match us up against Tampa, Pittsburgh, Washington, San Jose, etc we don't have the top end talent to match up. 

 

I agree we do have depth. I hope it is just a matter of figuring out the roster. But that will require a culture change as well. We need a team commitment to a system, identify, and a general way to play. And it starts with our top players who have been liabilities this season despite their high point totals. 

[redfire11]

8 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

Where would Monahan be on the two last Stanley Cup rosters? 3 line C? Gaudreau might be a bit higher on the line up, but where would he rank in terms of value to the team? Fifth? Sixth? Our D is scary and our Goal is bad. We aren't loaded with talent. 

 

These are good players. But when you match us up against Tampa, Pittsburgh, Washington, San Jose, etc we don't have the top end talent to match up. 

 

I agree we do have depth. I hope it is just a matter of figuring out the roster. But that will require a culture change as well. We need a team commitment to a system, identify, and a general way to play. And it starts with our top players who have been liabilities this season despite their high point totals. 

You can also look at it. Where would Monahan and Gaudreau fit in on the last 2 years runner up teams Nsh and VGK.

[MAC331]

14 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

Where would Monahan be on the two last Stanley Cup rosters? 3 line C? Gaudreau might be a bit higher on the line up, but where would he rank in terms of value to the team? Fifth? Sixth? Our D is scary and our Goal is bad. We aren't loaded with talent. 

 

These are good players. But when you match us up against Tampa, Pittsburgh, Washington, San Jose, etc we don't have the top end talent to match up. 

 

I agree we do have depth. I hope it is just a matter of figuring out the roster. But that will require a culture change as well. We need a team commitment to a system, identify, and a general way to play. And it starts with our top players who have been liabilities this season despite their high point totals. 

Did you miss my first sentence, you would be at the top of the list. Lighten up

[travel_dude]

26 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Did you miss my first sentence, you would be at the top of the list. Lighten up

 

Stick to the thread theme.  You don't need to degrade your view with name calling.

[TheFan99]

5 hours ago, MAC331 said:

These facts do raise some real questions going forward for the mix of aging fans expectations and those being delivered not only by younger players but also a changing game.

If serious hitting and character are going to be removed from the game, matching up your players talents to carry out the systems or game plan become more important. All we are hearing now is analytics this and analytics that will dictate the future in sports. Give it 3 to5 years and we wont recognize the game anymore. Soccer on skates.

Stupid millenial idiots. Dont be mean to me. 

[MAC331]

5 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

"Loaded with talent" is a bit generous.  We have 4 second lines that we can roll out so it's great forward depth.

 

Our D is in shambles and we have no quality goaltender.

Whatever

[robrob74]

6 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Hopefully enough for someone like Hanifin, Ras or Valimaki to take the reigns.

 

As for the dreaded T word. It guarantees you nothing. After the last few years do you think the general fanbase is going to want to hear that management has decided to roll the dice with the Oilers approach to success? The core is there, it just needs some strategic upgrades and maybe some healthy scratches to get the message across since I not sure the kick in the a** approach works anymore.

 

It is only called the Oilers approach because they don’t have good scouting or development outside of the early first round.

 

that means you have no faith in our own scouting or development when you use that argument. 

 

Ok, let’s get a high draft pick, but let’s also do something with later picks. But we’ve passed that situation.

[Flyerfan52]

8 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Hopefully enough for someone like Hanifin, Ras or Valimaki to take the reigns.

 

As for the dreaded T word. It guarantees you nothing. After the last few years do you think the general fanbase is going to want to hear that management has decided to roll the dice with the Oilers approach to success? The core is there, it just needs some strategic upgrades and maybe some healthy scratches to get the message across since I not sure the kick in the a** approach works anymore.

I`ve been on this board so long that neither my start date nor any other data is accurate (there were server switches & other things as it seemed the NHL was trying to kill all these team specific boards). In every 1 of those years there have been fans calling for a total teardown.

There have been teams that succeeded by being bad for about 5-8 years but only 1 that I recall doing that deliberately (iwhen fans actually bought tickets again they denied ever deserting even though they almost lost their team while finishing high on the picking order). The others were just that bad.

The Sens tried the deliberate approach in the `90s & have 0 Cups. The Oilers only hit paydirt on 1 of 4 1st OA picks & by then had little to no supporting cast.

 

There is a very rare thing that the Jets managed to sell to a Canadian NHL base that saw them remain a respectable team that maintained throughout that they would build via draft & develop. It was a unique circumstance that wouldn`t work with a city that hadn`t been starved for the big league. If QC ever gets a big league team again it could work there but Cabadian fans are impatient. The existance of this thread is proof.

[TheFan99]

13 hours ago, tmac70 said:

I sat  with Tim Hunter ( former flame) who is now head coach of junior club and asked if coaching has changed His answer  and is Direct quote is its like baby sitting now not coaching. The heavy handed method doesn't work, these kids fold like a cheap tent when or if they face any adversity. He said they are just rattled cause they can't even make toast to eat, they have no idea. Sit them down cut them or bench them the fold its parents agents and grandparents rath

Baby sitting because they're millenials. Are, u okay do u need to talk to someone? Do, u need some milk and cookies? Did, the coach yell at you. Are, your feelings hurt. Wimps!

[Heartbreaker]

2 minutes ago, TheFan99 said:

Baby sitting because they're millenials. Are, u okay do u need to talk to someone? Do, u need some milk and cookies? Did, the coach yell at you. Are, your feelings hurt. Wimps!

 

Again... Millennials are defined by having been born between 1981 and 1996. That makes them 22-37. 

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/03/01/defining-generations-where-millennials-end-and-post-millennials-begin/

 

Love. 

[cccsberg]

18 hours ago, MAC331 said:

What a bunch of sad sacks we have on this forum. This is not a poor team and it is loaded with talent that hasn't been put in the best formation to succeed IMO.

I am looking squarely at this coaching staff to start making better decisions.

Goaltending was always going to be our achillies heel if Smith didn't perform. I don't think he will remain as bad as he has been so far but again BP needs to get the best arrangement for our in front of him and Rittich. Go FLAMES Go

Wow, Mac, are you a closet Millenial too?  Its not the coaches who made the numerous terrible plays and bad coverage.  It is the coaching staff that benched or shifted down guys that were playing hard, and smart and vice versa.  Since you think its coaching and you seem to know better, what should be the "better decisions" to which you refer?

[cccsberg]

Actually part of the problem is many of us fans too.  It was disconcerting when the "Who is the Next Whipping Boy" thread went up, and now this "Tear it Down" thread after less than 10 games and the team still sitting in a solid position.  C'mon, are there issues, yes, but with "fans" like these who needs enemies?

[rickross]

1 hour ago, cccsberg said:

Actually part of the problem is many of us fans too.  It was disconcerting when the "Who is the Next Whipping Boy" thread went up, and now this "Tear it Down" thread after less than 10 games and the team still sitting in a solid position.  C'mon, are there issues, yes, but with "fans" like these who needs enemies?

I think it's just the frustration of supporting a frustrating franchise, the potential has been there but the results have yet to show. Flames are far from the "Tear it Down" stage but it's hard to fault the fans. Our own GM stated the mandate to win was within a 2-3 year window! We didn't even make the playoffs last year. We've sold futures and assets, have had the luxury of top quality D men but again the results don't show! We're on our 3rd coach and seemingly still discussing the same problems year over year. There are some major strides to be proud of but the total sum of parts has been underwhelming. 

 

Its the 1st month of the season still so there's time and I do believe we are better equipped to succeed this year. These threads are the reality that fans are excited but realize time is ticking away. We have some great players on great contracts and it's only natural for the fans to want to capitalize on such an opportunity in time. There's a lot of hockey left to be played, I think most of the fans are still optimistic it's just their patience is wearing thin.

[stubblejumper1]

1 hour ago, cccsberg said:

Actually part of the problem is many of us fans too.  It was disconcerting when the "Who is the Next Whipping Boy" thread went up, and now this "Tear it Down" thread after less than 10 games and the team still sitting in a solid position.  C'mon, are there issues, yes, but with "fans" like these who needs enemies?

 

The fans have nothing to do with the on ice product.  The players, management and coaching are fully responsible for the wins and losses.  

 

People may or may not like negative threads on this website, but those threads have no impact on the team's performance.  I would be surprised if anyone on the Flames roster ever visits this site.  

 

Is it too early to panic?  Yes.  There is still time to right the ship. Or, this may simply be a learning/development year. 

 

Is it to early to worry about the playoffs? No.  Why?  Because the team isn't playing well, they are in the middle of the pack and they will be in a dog fight all year.  This is exactly where I thought they would be.  

 

The team made many changes during the offseason , but, as I said at the time of the Hamilton trade, they replaced player A with a similar player.  Meh.

 

The only significant add was acquiring James Neal, who, thus far, isn't accomplishing much more than Brouwer did last year.  Hopefully this is just due to the small sample size.  

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, cccsberg said:

Actually part of the problem is many of us fans too.  It was disconcerting when the "Who is the Next Whipping Boy" thread went up, and now this "Tear it Down" thread after less than 10 games and the team still sitting in a solid position.  C'mon, are there issues, yes, but with "fans" like these who needs enemies?

 

I don;t worry about the burn it down thread, since it was posted with a comment about our current crop of players.  It's an opinion that asks is it time to tear it down.  Before we played a game, there were negative comments about the trades, the FA signings, the coaches, the current players and the mental toughness of the players.  Really it's a collection of those and observations.

 

We are not in desperates states yet.  We are lucky to be in the Pacific.  A string of wins will help take the heat off and give some confidence in the D and goalies.  The team hasn;t gelled yet.  Bennett is playing possessed, but his finish is still not quite there.  Monahan could have a severe bruised foot for all we know.  Neal is yet to hit his stride or be paired with the right players.  Backlund is still shooting muffins.  Janko has fallen off the map.  The defense corp is back together, but we are back to the issue of Stone vs Valimaki vs Andersson.  The goalie issue with Smith is still there.  He doesn't look comfortable and he's getting outplayed.

 

The next 10 games will show whether we have the right mix and are using them correctly.  It all doesn;t have to be fixed, but we need to see a step forward.  We can;t be seeing the same as last year; one step forward, one step back.  

 

41 minutes ago, stubblejumper1 said:

The only significant add was acquiring James Neal, who, thus far, isn't accomplishing much more than Brouwer did last year.  Hopefully this is just due to the small sample size.

 

Lindholm was significant.  But, Neal is doing more than his points suggest.  He's getting way more chances than most players on this team.  Those will start to be daled in.

   

 

[MAC331]

22 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Stick to the thread theme.  You don't need to degrade your view with name calling.

I didn't name call anyone so take a hike

[MAC331]

5 hours ago, cccsberg said:

Wow, Mac, are you a closet Millenial too?  Its not the coaches who made the numerous terrible plays and bad coverage.  It is the coaching staff that benched or shifted down guys that were playing hard, and smart and vice versa.  Since you think its coaching and you seem to know better, what should be the "better decisions" to which you refer?

Let me spell it our for you, confusion lends itself to more confusion and this goes for any generation. I didn't say it was "just" coaching anywhere, "just" that he is adding to it. You want consistency incorporate some.

[Fins&FIre15]

Sorry to chime in when I haven't read most of the discussion, but I just wanted to say my 2 cents:

 

Its probably an unpopular opinion, but I DO think we should move on from this core. We would go through another dip, but it would be faster this time from the assets we could sell off. After iggy we had absolutely no one, and had to build up assets through trade and drafting.

 

We have a lot of good things, but I just can't see us being a winning team in 5 years, or really even a contender. Were just too soft, and not neutralized too easily.

 

Teams like tampa bay, pittsburgh and nashville are the upper echelon, and a level were not even close to yet. And I can't see us getting there with this group, especially with the cap crunch were getting in to.

[DirtyDeeds]

6 minutes ago, Fins&FIre15 said:

Sorry to chime in when I haven't read most of the discussion, but I just wanted to say my 2 cents:

 

Its probably an unpopular opinion, but I DO think we should move on from this core. We would go through another dip, but it would be faster this time from the assets we could sell off. After iggy we had absolutely no one, and had to build up assets through trade and drafting.

 

We have a lot of good things, but I just can't see us being a winning team in 5 years, or really even a contender. Were just too soft, and not neutralized too easily.

 

Teams like tampa bay, pittsburgh and nashville are the upper echelon, and a level were not even close to yet. And I can't see us getting there with this group, especially with the cap crunch were getting in to.

We had JBo too.. his return was about as bad as what Iggy brought back.

 

The problem is Ownership. They are okay with a rebuild as long as we ice a playoff worthy team. There lies the problem.. You can't have your cake and pie at same time.

[MAC331]

6 hours ago, cccsberg said:

Wow, Mac, are you a closet Millenial too?  Its not the coaches who made the numerous terrible plays and bad coverage.  It is the coaching staff that benched or shifted down guys that were playing hard, and smart and vice versa.  Since you think its coaching and you seem to know better, what should be the "better decisions" to which you refer?

Go see my lines and pairings. This is where I think we need to get to should we want to ice the best team with some consistency

[DirtyDeeds]

On 10/25/2018 at 9:00 PM, kehatch said:

I have said it before.  This team is in their window to win now.  They are built, the pieces are in place, they should be trying to win a cup.  And if they aren't good enough that is a problem.  I will give the team another 30 or so games, but right now I think there are some SERIOUS flaws on this team that may require a complete rebuild. 

 

We don't have an identity

We aren't fast.  We aren't heavy.  We aren't great defensively.  We don't have a lot of skill.  We are mediocre offensively.  We aren't a lunch pale team.  What is our team identity even supposed to be?  We are a mishmash of parts that don't fit together all of that well.  

 

We don't have high caliber stars

I am sorry, I love our players.  But we don't have a McDavid, Mathews, Crosby, Karlsson, Doughty, Price, etc.  When is the last time a team one a cup without a star player or three?  

 

Our best player has an expiry date, as does most of our D

Giordano is slowing down and he is the closest thing to a star we have.  Brodie and Hamonic are both near the end of their contracts as well.  That is 75% of our top 4.  

 

We don't have the pieces to fix the issues

We don't have any cap space.  We don't have enough pieces in the system to go after big names either.  

 

We don't have enough coming up through the system

Dube, Andersson, and Valimaki are good stories. But we don't have any game changers in our system, and our system as a whole isn't particularly strong. 

 

What if we were to trade Gaudreau (not good defensively), Monahan (slow and not good defensively), Backlund (a bit older), Giordano (slowing down), Neal (older), Brodie (expiring contract), and Hamonic (expiring contract).  Tank for a few years.  Build the team back up.  What kind of haul would we get in that scenario? We still have some good, young, long term pieces on the team. 

 

It won't happen.  Owners, Calgary owners in particular, won't go for it.  But unless this team finds three more gears then they absolutely should. Otherwise they will wait until those pieces are lost of nothing or aren't worth a damn and we will be back to the pre Iggy trade all over again.  

Because of this thread kehatch all of us on the Flames board get branded hypocrites.......  thanks

 

From Oilers board by bronco...

 

 

 

 

 

http://fans.oilers.nhl.com/community/topic/8393-future-of-the-flames/?do=findComment&comment=819703