Burn it Down?

[kehatch]

I have said it before.  This team is in their window to win now.  They are built, the pieces are in place, they should be trying to win a cup.  And if they aren't good enough that is a problem.  I will give the team another 30 or so games, but right now I think there are some SERIOUS flaws on this team that may require a complete rebuild. 

 

We don't have an identity

We aren't fast.  We aren't heavy.  We aren't great defensively.  We don't have a lot of skill.  We are mediocre offensively.  We aren't a lunch pale team.  What is our team identity even supposed to be?  We are a mishmash of parts that don't fit together all of that well.  

 

We don't have high caliber stars

I am sorry, I love our players.  But we don't have a McDavid, Mathews, Crosby, Karlsson, Doughty, Price, etc.  When is the last time a team one a cup without a star player or three?  

 

Our best player has an expiry date, as does most of our D

Giordano is slowing down and he is the closest thing to a star we have.  Brodie and Hamonic are both near the end of their contracts as well.  That is 75% of our top 4.  

 

We don't have the pieces to fix the issues

We don't have any cap space.  We don't have enough pieces in the system to go after big names either.  

 

We don't have enough coming up through the system

Dube, Andersson, and Valimaki are good stories. But we don't have any game changers in our system, and our system as a whole isn't particularly strong. 

 

What if we were to trade Gaudreau (not good defensively), Monahan (slow and not good defensively), Backlund (a bit older), Giordano (slowing down), Neal (older), Brodie (expiring contract), and Hamonic (expiring contract).  Tank for a few years.  Build the team back up.  What kind of haul would we get in that scenario? We still have some good, young, long term pieces on the team. 

 

It won't happen.  Owners, Calgary owners in particular, won't go for it.  But unless this team finds three more gears then they absolutely should. Otherwise they will wait until those pieces are lost of nothing or aren't worth a damn and we will be back to the pre Iggy trade all over again.  

[cccsberg]

1 hour ago, kehatch said:

I have said it before.  This team is in their window to win now.  They are built, the pieces are in place, they should be trying to win a cup.  And if they aren't good enough that is a problem.  I will give the team another 30 or so games, but right now I think there are some SERIOUS flaws on this team that may require a complete rebuild. 

 

We don't have an identity

We aren't fast.  We aren't heavy.  We aren't great defensively.  We don't have a lot of skill.  We are mediocre offensively.  We aren't a lunch pale team.  What is our team identity even supposed to be?  We are a mishmash of parts that don't fit together all of that well.  

 

We don't have high caliber stars

I am sorry, I love our players.  But we don't have a McDavid, Mathews, Crosby, Karlsson, Doughty, Price, etc.  When is the last time a team one a cup without a star player or three?  

 

Our best player has an expiry date, as does most of our D

Giordano is slowing down and he is the closest thing to a star we have.  Brodie and Hamonic are both near the end of their contracts as well.  That is 75% of our top 4.  

 

We don't have the pieces to fix the issues

We don't have any cap space.  We don't have enough pieces in the system to go after big names either.  

 

We don't have enough coming up through the system

Dube, Andersson, and Valimaki are good stories. But we don't have any game changers in our system, and our system as a whole isn't particularly strong. 

 

What if we were to trade Gaudreau (not good defensively), Monahan (slow and not good defensively), Backlund (a bit older), Giordano (slowing down), Neal (older), Brodie (expiring contract), and Hamonic (expiring contract).  Tank for a few years.  Build the team back up.  What kind of haul would we get in that scenario? We still have some good, young, long term pieces on the team. 

 

It won't happen.  Owners, Calgary owners in particular, won't go for it.  But unless this team finds three more gears then they absolutely should. Otherwise they will wait until those pieces are lost of nothing or aren't worth a damn and we will be back to the pre Iggy trade all over again.  

A bit premature for this thread, but after getting totally humiliated and blown out at home by over a touchdown it'll probably get some serious consideration.  

 

[travel_dude]

First things first.

The net is in shambles.

We will be a lotto team this season unless something drastic is done.

Gillies isn't impressing.  Parsons is too far off.

Need to make a big play now.

 

I would be all for trading Backlund, since I think he's getting more chances and doing nothing with them.

He should be a perennial 30 goal guy.  Tkachuk hits him with perfect passes every game.  And nothing.

I would give up that defensive play for a guy like Panarin or Stone.  I would stick Lindholm in his spot with Tkachuk and Neal.

Trade Brodie for whatever you can get, though he's not the worse guy there.

Stone is killing this team.

There is nothing about his game that makes us better.

Not an accurate shot, though a boomer.

Not fast, though can lay the odd hit.

Not good defensively, though he thinks he's an offensive threat.

Get's burned most times he activates.

 

As far as the prospects and players on the farm go, maybe it's time we try them out here.

Hathaway rarely has nights where he looks like a scoring threat.

Dube, gotta love him, but his timing is just off a bit.  

Frolik is looking invisible.  Maybe the 2nd line isn;t as good as we thought.  One good game every three.

Mangiapane, Foo and Rychel may be better suited to what we have on the team.

 

Nothing is making sense out there.  It's almost like the defense has a couple of pieces that are screwing up the mix.

This year needs to re-start.

Trade away some guys that are not helping and go with Andersson, Gio, Valimaki, Hamonic, Hanifin.   Add a few lesser lights to round it out.  Trade the rest.

Trade Backlund, Hathaway, maybe even Bennett.

 

Okay, I've said my piece.  I don;t hate the team.  I hate what I am seeing, starting with the goalie.  Frustrated watching Backlund kill plays where we had the puck on a string.

Frustrated watching players miss the top corner by a foot where they have a clean shot.  Frustrated watching D-men caught in deep, when they can;t even skate that fast.  Frustrated watching every shot (seemingly) go in the net with little movement from the goalie.  Almost like he thinks he's 8 feet tall and 6 feet wide.  

 

[rickross]

Weak goaltending, an overrated defence and an overall lack of top forwards. "We gotta regroup", "Enough is enough..", "lots of character in this room".  Hear the players saying the exact same things every year. This team really hasn't accomplished much of anything in the last decade. 

 

Treliving just did a mini rebuild in the off season only to be watching the same result unfold from an essentially new team. It's still early...blah. It was Crosby and the Penguins tho...blah! The thought of the Flames possessing an elite D corps was a fallacy. There's a big difference between having "lots of character" in a room vs. "lots of characters". There's been something(s) missing on this team for some time and I'm not sure simply swapping players in and out is the answer.  I honestly don't think we'll see this team turn that corner until there's a new arena in place, as ridiculous as that sounds. We've changed coaches and players already, psychologically the optics of a new barn could provide that new energy and spirit this franchise needs. 

[MP5029]

Actually a quick fix that would really wake up a lot of people, Tachuck as Captain...Hanifin as Assist and Jankowski or Czarnik...

 

all those guys have serious compete levels also i’d Reorganize the lines and pairings, we definitely need to make a few trades and bring in some of the farm team guys, any Vet not playing up to expectations get to sit out now and watch, if they respond great if not, well then they get traded...

 

im so tired of the Lazy Vet mentally on this team it’s time they earn their spot...and at this point They should really look at a tie goes to the younger player, vets need to out  play The younger players 

 

I got roasted about trading Gio over the summer but look now people are starting to see what I was talking about, we are dangerously close to anothe Iggy situation 

 

 

[ABC923]

Oy vey, the negativity on the board ten games into the season is strong this year.  I get that last game was ugly, that we aren't meeting expectations, etc., but the hyperbole here is extreme.

 

Calgary has no star players?  So Gaudreau (16th in points last year) and Monahan (consistent 30 goal scorer), Tkachuk (future captain, likely 30 goal scorer), Giordano (consistent top pairing d-man for years, recent Norris candidate), these guys are all just smucks I suppose.  Third liners/3rd pairing players on most teams in the league I guess.  If the complaint is we don't have a Crosby, Malkin, Ovi, etc., well you are correct.  There are only maybe 10 teams in the league who have one of those (including the oilers, who won't make the playoffs again this year anyway).  So if you are holding out for the chance to have 1 of those top ten guys someday, we will be waiting for a long time.  No guarantees sucking it up for years for high draft picks will solve that either (see Buffalo for example).

 

Rather than burn things to the ground and hope that in five years we aren't in the exact same place we are today, I would like to see the team split up it's sacred pairings.  The Gaudreau-Monahan pairing in particular, as when that line isn't scoring it's getting scored on.  I saw some good suggestions in another thread (I think they might have been your kehatch) on how to juggle the lines to be more balanced in playstyle.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, ABC923 said:

Oy vey, the negativity on the board ten games into the season is strong this year.  I get that last game was ugly, that we aren't meeting expectations, etc., but the hyperbole here is extreme.

 

 

If it was only one game, then the sentiment wouldn;t be as strong.

The 2nd game against NASH.

The STL game after the shutout.

The NYR games.

The MTL game.

The first game against VAN.

The llast game against PITTS.

 

The players recognize the problems in a loss or a game where the goalie steals one, but follow up that with the same performance.

The only thing consistent is the goaltending has been bad.  Fix that, and the others will follow suit.

Frustration mounts when we watch our best defensive centre unable to get away a decent shot in the slot and our defenders look useless.

Six goals in a period whould never happen.  

 

VAN - 4 GA in 3rd

STL - 3 GA in 1st

MTL - 3 GA in 2nd

PITTS - 6 GA in 1st

 

Four games like that and 5 total losses.

[redfire11]

Not sure about the "Burn it Down"

but I am embarrassed as a Flame fan 

and I hope the whole Flames organization is reflecting my sentiment. 

[robrob74]

I would say:

 

Van

Van

STL

NSH

NYR

MTL

PIT. 

 

Theyve played about 7 bad games out of 10. That second game was ok and boarderline. I put it down as a frustrating game to watch.

[ABC923]

I'm not trying to say everything is fine, but declaring a need to burn everything to the ground after already undergoing a major roster retool this summer seems a bit over the top.  Do we need to better?  Yes of course.  Can we be better?  I think so.  I predict the flames  win the next one in convincing fashion, but even if they don't there will still be time.  The rest of the division is not pulling away just yet.

 

 

[travel_dude]

19 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I would say:

 

Van

Van

STL

NSH

NYR

MTL

PIT. 

 

Theyve played about 7 bad games out of 10. That second game was ok and boarderline. I put it down as a frustrating game to watch.

 

I can live with wins where we stole the points.  Every teams needs those.  They need to learn from them.

Perhaps we need a leadership change.

Gio, on the ice, is a great player and leader.

Off the ice?  You be the judge. 

 

Loss to STL:

“I just thought they were better, especially obviously the first 40 minutes they out-competed us and that can’t happen. Pretty disappointing loss. Being down 5-1 we took chances in the third. There were moments, but at the end of the day it comes down to we have to be way harder on pucks, way harder to play against than that.” 

 

Loss to Nashville:

“They played patient. They were sitting back a lot, I thought, in the neutral zone, waiting for us to turn it over. But I thought as the game went on we did a lot better at putting pucks in and going on the forecheck. It’s tough. It was a 3-3 game in the third, right, so it’s tough to swallow right now. There were some positives, there were a lot of good things in that game, but we’ve got to clean up those little breakdowns that good teams are going to make you pay.” 

 

Loss to Montreal:

“I thought we got out-played for the first two periods. They were the better team. They generated a lot more and were doing the little things better than we were, got their lead. So that was the difference in the game. I thought we pushed hard in the third. But yeah, we had some chances down the stretch but you can’t keep chasing games. It’s not a good thing to do in this league and eventually it’s going to come back to bite you, and we chased this one all night.”

 

Loss to Pitts:

“I thought the first few minutes, we got a power play, we got some looks. And then they scored a few and we started taking some risks that obviously you can’t take against a team like that, who knows how to put the puck in the net. And it really snowballed and obviously a lot of us in here, it’s a tough feeling. I don’t think many of us have been through that, especially in your own building. We’ve got to really regroup in here. I feel like our past few games haven’t been good at all and tonight it’s time to sit down with each other and figure this out.” 

[kehatch]

I slept on it. I stand by it. I will still give this another 30 games but right now I think the team is severely flawed. 

 

A team hasn't won the cup in the cap era without having the best players in the league. Some day a team will. It will be one committed to defence, with great depth, a huge work ethic, and one playing with an identity. 

 

Right now we are none of those things, and we don't appear to be constructed towards one of those things. If this team turns a corner, finds their identity, becomes one of the hardest working teams in the league, and starts to focus on defence then maybe we can be more then a second round exit (in a good year.)

 

But it starts with our best players and right now they play like putting it in the net is the only thing they need to do. It trickles down from there. And we need to be strong in goal, which is clearly not the case. 

[MAC331]

13 minutes ago, kehatch said:

I slept on it. I stand by it. I will still give this another 30 games but right now I think the team is severely flawed. 

 

A team hasn't won the cup in the cap era without having the best players in the league. Some day a team will. It will be one committed to defence, with great depth, a huge work ethic, and one playing with an identity. 

 

Right now we are none of those things, and we don't appear to be constructed towards one of those things. If this team turns a corner, finds their identity, becomes one of the hardest working teams in the league, and starts to focus on defence then maybe we can be more then a second round exit (in a good year.)

 

But it starts with our best players and right now they play like putting it in the net is the only thing they need to do. It trickles down from there. And we need to be strong in goal, which is clearly not the case. 

You don't have much choice in the matter. I guess you could quit watching them if you are going to get this upset.

[travel_dude]

It all starts in net, doesn't it?

Hiller, Ramo, McDonald, Elliott, Smith....

None have been more than adequate for stretches of games.

They can't maintain their play.

 

We will go nowhere until the real starter is found.

What you say about cap teams needing to have superstars to win the cup is true.  The other side of that is that the other team in that series is constructed of no real stars.  VGK, Nashville...Neither has superstars.  Forsberg is no better in some aspects than Monahan.  Karlsson was not any better.  Those teams rode ther goalies as far as they could.  But, let's face it.  Winning the Pres Trophy or losing in the SCF is a huge plateau to reach.  Flip a coin.  The best team doesn;t always win or make it past the conference final.

 

That goes back to nets.  MAF made VGK look legit.  Rinne made Nashville legit.   

[cross16]

For me the Flames have looked excellent in 3 games against some of the best teams in the NHL (COL, Bos, Nash). They've looked awful in 3 games 2 of which were bad teams. 

 

The answer is probably in the middle for those who want to freak out. 

[MAC331]

13 minutes ago, cross16 said:

For me the Flames have looked excellent in 3 games against some of the best teams in the NHL (COL, Bos, Nash). They've looked awful in 3 games 2 of which were bad teams. 

 

The answer is probably in the middle for those who want to freak out. 

I somewhat expected this in the first month as the coaching staff sorted out some things and a lot of new players getting use to each other. There have been a lot of breakdowns hanging our goalies out to dry but Smith has not looked good. He appears to be the type that will be the most hard on himself so let's look for a turnaround from him. Rittich has looked good and I think he will continue to play well in limited action as the back up. I'm sure they are all having a good look in the mirror today, coaching staff included.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

The fact that this thread was even started is embarrassing upon itself. 10 games in and were already using the tank word? Yes it hasnt looked good up to this point. Yes there is no quick fix, and yes you cant wait forever But c'mon, getting rid of as much assets as possible for a crop of unknowns? And then what? In 3 -4 years were potentially better, the same or even worse?  Do we really want to become those type of fans?  If anything this is a good measuring stick on how the players, coaches and management react. If there seems to be little to no change then it may be time to worry.

[cross16]

 

2 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

The fact that this thread was even started is embarrassing upon itself. 10 games in and were already using the tank word? Yes it hasnt looked good up to this point. Yes there is no quick fix, and yes you cant wait forever But c'mon, getting rid of as much assets as possible for a crop of unknowns? And then what? In 3 -4 years were potentially better, the same or even worse?  Do we really want to become those type of fans?  If anything this is a good measuring stick on how the players, coaches and management react. If there seems to be little to no change then it may be time to worry.

 

Great point.

 

If people want to burn it down, that's fine and they have their reasons. i respect where Kehatch is coming from but if you want to go that route you need to be prepared that the most likely of outcomes is you do it and 4-5 years from now your in the same boat. There is no guaranteed nor increased probability IMO that another rebuild is going to yield better results as it's a very luck driven plan, especially with the new draft format. I'm not attracted to the idea of building a team based on hope.

 

 

[sak22]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

I can live with wins where we stole the points.  Every teams needs those.  They need to learn from them.

Perhaps we need a leadership change.

Gio, on the ice, is a great player and leader.

Off the ice?  You be the judge. 

 

Loss to STL:

“I just thought they were better, especially obviously the first 40 minutes they out-competed us and that can’t happen. Pretty disappointing loss. Being down 5-1 we took chances in the third. There were moments, but at the end of the day it comes down to we have to be way harder on pucks, way harder to play against than that.” 

 

Loss to Nashville:

“They played patient. They were sitting back a lot, I thought, in the neutral zone, waiting for us to turn it over. But I thought as the game went on we did a lot better at putting pucks in and going on the forecheck. It’s tough. It was a 3-3 game in the third, right, so it’s tough to swallow right now. There were some positives, there were a lot of good things in that game, but we’ve got to clean up those little breakdowns that good teams are going to make you pay.” 

 

Loss to Montreal:

“I thought we got out-played for the first two periods. They were the better team. They generated a lot more and were doing the little things better than we were, got their lead. So that was the difference in the game. I thought we pushed hard in the third. But yeah, we had some chances down the stretch but you can’t keep chasing games. It’s not a good thing to do in this league and eventually it’s going to come back to bite you, and we chased this one all night.”

 

Loss to Pitts:

“I thought the first few minutes, we got a power play, we got some looks. And then they scored a few and we started taking some risks that obviously you can’t take against a team like that, who knows how to put the puck in the net. And it really snowballed and obviously a lot of us in here, it’s a tough feeling. I don’t think many of us have been through that, especially in your own building. We’ve got to really regroup in here. I feel like our past few games haven’t been good at all and tonight it’s time to sit down with each other and figure this out.” 

I don't think a guy is a good leader based off media quotes.  If anything I think a guy can lose followers, the league is run by millennials now, they are different in the world we work in and have the same attitudes in sports.  Most of the best captains in this leagues history aren't known for media clips.  Many teams go through stretches like this, many championship teams do as well.  I want to see the response from this.

[MAC331]

6 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

 

Great point.

 

If people want to burn it down, that's fine and they have their reasons. i respect where Kehatch is coming from but if you want to go that route you need to be prepared that the most likely of outcomes is you do it and 4-5 years from now your in the same boat. There is no guaranteed nor increased probability IMO that another rebuild is going to yield better results as it's a very luck driven plan, especially with the new draft format. I'm not attracted to the idea of building a team based on hope.

 

 

One over-reaction and out come the naysayers. Yes last night was disappointing but the talent is here for us to have a good team. Will this team win the SC I don't think so not this season. BP needs to make some decisions on who will play with who and perhaps after a game like last night he will realize it. If you want consistency from your team you have to provide it, quit the experimenting and end the confusion on the ice.

[travel_dude]

It's very possible to get out of this hole.

It has to start with nets being stabilized.

Don't really care who the starter is, you have to play the guy that gets you the wins.

If Smith lets in a goal, I don;t care whose fault it is, take the blame and tell the team you will make up for it.

If you can't, then ask for the hook.

 

I get frustrated reading Steinberg pieces saying that the 3M line is elite.  This after watching Backlund miss open nets, tap in goals, etc.  I only suggest trading him for Stone because I think that is one player that brings a level of compete.  Backlund is the price you pay for that.  We have a little depth at C.  Brodie or Hamonic.  Pick the one you want to keep and move on.  We will have two young players that replace a lot of what they bring.  May be some short term pain.  Stone is my biggest issue outside the starter role.  It looks like he plays the game good enoug, but he's doing things that come back on us.

[The_People1]

If only we tanked for a higher pick 3 or 4 years ago... But I digress.

 

The real question in this thread is not "should we burn it down" but rather, "how much do we need to burn it down?"... Because some of it has to be.

 

My opinion is, our new core is young enough and signed long enough to withstand a one or two year retool.  Don't try to make the playoffs this year.  Trade Giordano, Backlund, and Frolik.  Draft.  Develop.

 

Don't upgrade goaltending this season.  Let Smith and Rittich get shelled the whole year so you know, "managerially tanking."  It's stealth.  It looks like we are sticking with the plan.  It's a great sell even though in reality, it's really just a slight of hand by management.

 

Short term pain for long term gain.

[MAC331]

14 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

If only we tanked for a higher pick 3 or 4 years ago... But I digress.

 

The real question in this thread is not "should we burn it down" but rather, "how much do we need to burn it down?"... Because some of it has to be.

 

My opinion is, our new core is young enough and signed long enough to withstand a one or two year retool.  Don't try to make the playoffs this year.  Trade Giordano, Backlund, and Frolik.  Draft.  Develop.

 

Don't upgrade goaltending this season.  Let Smith and Rittich get shelled the whole year so you know, "managerially tanking."  It's stealth.  It looks like we are sticking with the plan.  It's a great sell even though in reality, it's really just a slight of hand by management.

 

Short term pain for long term gain.

I could see this going as you suggest only because I don't think a move to another "better" Goalie exists currently. This year was always going to be sink or swim with Smith in net. Personally I wouldn't trade Giordano because he keeps our LSD solid carving a good path for Hanifin and Valimaki to move in as he expires. Our defensive problems exist with our RSD and BT needs to address it. I would keep Hamonic and Andersson. Trade Brodie and Stone.

Backlund I view similar to Giordano, until another C can step up and make him replaceable keep him but I agree we could move out Frolik and get good value. Ryan may be another one they could move given how Bennett's play is coming on.

[JTech780]

For me the game on Saturday against Washington is going to tell me a lot about this team and how this season is going to go.

 

If they come out flat on Saturday after the Hash Rate whooping they just took last night, this team doesn't have much a chance this year, and the leadership in the dressing room really needs to be looked at.

 

If they come out flying and play hard and limit the chances defensively, then I will give them a bit more time.

 

They have played terrible for 3 straight games and last night was embarrassing, if they don't have a response to that in the next game then I am on board with blowing it up.

[The_People1]

2 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

I could see this going as you suggest only because I don't think a move to another "better" Goalie exists currently. This year was always going to be sink or swim with Smith in net. Personally I wouldn't trade Giordano because he keeps our LSD solid carving a good path for Hanifin and Valimaki to move in as he expires. Our defensive problems exist with our RSD and BT needs to address it. I would keep Hamonic and Andersson. Trade Brodie and Stone.

Backlund I view similar to Giordano, until another C can step up and make him replaceable keep him but I agree we could move out Frolik and get good value. Ryan may be another one they could move given how Bennett's play is coming on.

 

In regards to Backlund, let's see where Bennett is by TDL.  

 

I mean, what is Backlund?  He is someone who can dominate until he has the puck wide open in the slot and then he will sail it a foot over the net.  That appears to be what Bennett is right?  He's a guy who can dominate almost every aspect of the game until he's all alone in the slot.

 

In terms of Gio, I know it's hard to let him go because of emotional investments but give the C to Tkachuk or Monahan. I think they have the respect of the dressing room.