Burn it Down?

[Heartbreaker]

47 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Because of this thread kehatch all of us on the Flames board get branded hypocrites.......  thanks

 

From Oilers board by bronco...

 

 

http://fans.oilers.nhl.com/community/topic/8393-future-of-the-flames/?do=findComment&comment=819703

 

If only we'd listened to ConnorFutureGM... 

 

Love. 

[stubblejumper1]

1 hour ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Because of this thread kehatch all of us on the Flames board get branded hypocrites.......  thanks

 

From Oilers board by bronco...

 

 

 

 

 

http://fans.oilers.nhl.com/community/topic/8393-future-of-the-flames/?do=findComment&comment=819703

 

1.  I am not a fan of tanking, but I really am tired of mediocrity.  

 

2.  It is hypocritical for Oilers fans to suggest the Oilers didn't intentionally tank year after year after year until McDavid came along and singlehandedly dragged the Oilers kicking and screaming into the playoffs.  No professional sports team is that bad without clearly setting out to lose more games than they win. It is impossible to be that incompetant. 

 

3.  Is anyone on this board thin skinned enough to care what an Oilers fan has to say about hockey?  How can this guy's opinion bug anyone more than the 30 years this franchise has gone without a Cup?  This is just background noise.  

 

 

 

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Because of this thread kehatch all of us on the Flames board get branded hypocrites.......  thanks

 

From Oilers board by bronco...

 

 

 

 

 

http://fans.oilers.nhl.com/community/topic/8393-future-of-the-flames/?do=findComment&comment=819703

 

In kehatch's defense, he never said "tank".  He even said he doesn't believe in losing on purpose.  

 

And in my own defense, I've never said those things about the Oilers.  I've always said tanking was a vital ingredient in a rebuild but tanking is not the only required ingredient.  You have to do everything else right too (draft +develop +trades +UFAs +coaching +etc).  The Oilers clearly didn't do everything else right.  I'm advocating that we do.

[Fins&FIre15]

Here are some facts:

 

Without mcdavid they are the worst team in the league and its not even close. I'd love to hear any oiler fan try and change my mind, it would be hilarious.

 

They've had higher picks than us for years and still have a far worse farm system than we do right now.

 

They are the whiny brother of the alberta teams who keep getting shiny new toys, breaking them and then continuing to ask for more (by losing). I still remember the jealousy from our first playoff year in this era. The whining and grovelling was pathetic, especially after how hall, eberle, and rnh were going to be the start of a new dynasty.

 

Besides toronto, they are universally seen as the leagues worst and most obnoxious fanbase.

 

By coming here to see what were talking about, all he showed is how insecure he feels about his own team. I doubt he'd have even ventured over if the oilers had a losing record right now. Ghosts when their team is losing and obscenely over confident while theyre winning. Just pitiful.

 

[travel_dude]

6 hours ago, Fins&FIre15 said:

Here are some facts:

 

Without mcdavid they are the worst team in the league and its not even close. I'd love to hear any oiler fan try and change my mind, it would be hilarious.

 

They've had higher picks than us for years and still have a far worse farm system than we do right now.

 

They are the whiny brother of the alberta teams who keep getting shiny new toys, breaking them and then continuing to ask for more (by losing). I still remember the jealousy from our first playoff year in this era. The whining and grovelling was pathetic, especially after how hall, eberle, and rnh were going to be the start of a new dynasty.

 

Besides toronto, they are universally seen as the leagues worst and most obnoxious fanbase.

 

By coming here to see what were talking about, all he showed is how insecure he feels about his own team. I doubt he'd have even ventured over if the oilers had a losing record right now. Ghosts when their team is losing and obscenely over confident while theyre winning. Just pitiful.

 

 

To be fair to Bronco, he's usually level headed and respectful.

Perhaps he reads the Oiler thread here and gets mad.  So be it.

Oiler fans always complain about the refs out to get them, even though most nights McDavid gets away with slashes and holds, while the other team gets called when McDavid is played wth a good defensive play.  Watched a game between CHI and EDM, and it was the loosest game I have ever seen.  CHI dominated the game.  They had zone time up the wazoo.  They were hauled down, picked, held and hacked.

 

I will say this.  It was nice to watch a game where they let them play.  

 

 

Whiny bunch of fans up there.  Every game they go on about Puljujarvi not being treated right, how Callgiula is crap, how Russell is useless, how Talbot is crap, how Leon is slow, how they have no depth, how they should fire the head coach and replace him with Gully....And then they win a game or two and all is perfect.  The team is on fire.  The schedule is tough but they are better than the league.

 

If any team needs a rebuild, it EDM.  3 or 4 core players.  I may even be stretching that.

 

[The_Tribal Chief]

With The Changes they Have Also Made To Drafting Tanking isnt a guranteed !st round pick like it was before

[travel_dude]

This thread could have been named "Problems with the Calgary Flames" and it would have been better received.  Like every team in the NHL, we have problems.  There are different strategies of fixing them.  Scorched earth is not he only method.  We have to objectively look at what we still lack and what we have to fix the problems.  Problems with defense may just be temporary.  Forwards refusing to come back is a hangover from the Gully days of what system?  Goalies overplaying the puck can be fixed by the defense telling the goalie what to do.  That's on the captain.  He has to take charge and tell Smith such.

 

Trading any player is an option, but it has to be realistic.  Trade Backlund only when the result moves the needle in the right direction, either defensively or the offense outweighs the loss of defensive play.  Trade Smith for an up and coming starter, if you can live with the transition.  Trade Brodie if you feel we are okay on the top 4 without him.  Trade Janko if there is no place for him.  Trade JH if you feel that 50 the negatives outweigh the positives, and we can get a better return than we have seen, like ever.

Trade Bennett if he brings back that one elusive piece, or that he will never been more than a defensive 3rd liner and the return is fitting.

[kehatch]

12 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Because of this thread kehatch all of us on the Flames board get branded hypocrites.......  thanks

 

From Oilers board by bronco...

 

 

 

 

 

http://fans.oilers.nhl.com/community/topic/8393-future-of-the-flames/?do=findComment&comment=819703

 

You are welcome? Honestly, what the Oilers message board things about my post ranks very low on my g-a-s metre. 

[conundrumed]

13 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Because of this thread kehatch all of us on the Flames board get branded hypocrites.......  thanks

 

From Oilers board by bronco...

 

 

 

 

 

http://fans.oilers.nhl.com/community/topic/8393-future-of-the-flames/?do=findComment&comment=819703

As much as I admire bronco's knowledge, that's a pretty broad stroke.

I don't care one way or the other if they blew it for McDavid. In fact I don't even care about the lottery.

A last place finish is a lot more cleaning than a high pick. It hasn't helped the Oilers escape mediocrity.

 

11 games isn't enough for me to man the panic station, it'll come together.

 

 

 

 

[Fins&FIre15]

6 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

To be fair to Bronco, he's usually level headed and respectful.

Perhaps he reads the Oiler thread here and gets mad.  So be it.

Oiler fans always complain about the refs out to get them, even though most nights McDavid gets away with slashes and holds, while the other team gets called when McDavid is played wth a good defensive play.  Watched a game between CHI and EDM, and it was the loosest game I have ever seen.  CHI dominated the game.  They had zone time up the wazoo.  They were hauled down, picked, held and hacked.

 

I will say this.  It was nice to watch a game where they let them play.  

 

 

Whiny bunch of fans up there.  Every game they go on about Puljujarvi not being treated right, how Callgiula is crap, how Russell is useless, how Talbot is crap, how Leon is slow, how they have no depth, how they should fire the head coach and replace him with Gully....And then they win a game or two and all is perfect.  The team is on fire.  The schedule is tough but they are better than the league.

 

If any team needs a rebuild, it EDM.  3 or 4 core players.  I may even be stretching that.

 

 

Yeah, sorry for going on a bit of an off topic rant, just have a personal vendetta about other teams fans poking their nose in other teams forums. Its more of a me problem than anything Bronco did tbh.

 

We're not good right now, and obviously there are going to be complaints and opinions, but the one fan base that shouldn't be criticizing is the oilers.

 

If the lottery balls landed how the standings ended up, they would have strome. So maybe instead of feeling good about our discussions, they should make a topic praising god that they got blessed with the luck they did.

[conundrumed]

7 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

To be fair to Bronco, he's usually level headed and respectful.

Perhaps he reads the Oiler thread here and gets mad.  So be it.

Oiler fans always complain about the refs out to get them, even though most nights McDavid gets away with slashes and holds, while the other team gets called when McDavid is played wth a good defensive play.  Watched a game between CHI and EDM, and it was the loosest game I have ever seen.  CHI dominated the game.  They had zone time up the wazoo.  They were hauled down, picked, held and hacked.

 

I will say this.  It was nice to watch a game where they let them play.  

 

 

Whiny bunch of fans up there.  Every game they go on about Puljujarvi not being treated right, how Callgiula is crap, how Russell is useless, how Talbot is crap, how Leon is slow, how they have no depth, how they should fire the head coach and replace him with Gully....And then they win a game or two and all is perfect.  The team is on fire.  The schedule is tough but they are better than the league.

 

If any team needs a rebuild, it EDM.  3 or 4 core players.  I may even be stretching that.

 

Hmmm, not really. bronco did a stupid thing.

That's a dick move to a lot of us long-timers that don't share the mentality.

It's a dick move to stir it up.

Whatever.

I won't mention posters, but I'm pretty sure I have a long list of the offended.

Dick move, bronco.

[travel_dude]

On 10/28/2018 at 0:20 PM, MAC331 said:

I didn't name call anyone so take a hike

 

Mac, as a mod, I am trying to regulate the threads.

We make judgement calls, and I felt you were being disrespectful.

You don;t want to follow the rules, then you will be shown the ban hammer.

Keep it civil please.

[kehatch]

That was a good game. Monahan and Gaudreau were committed defensively. The entire team was. If they can do that consistently then we have a hockey team. 

 

Like I said, we aren't a top heavy team. We need to be strong and consistent across all lines and pairings and leverage our depth. 

 

The challenge will be doing that consistently. Any NHL team can do it for a stretch, but the teams that can string that together are the teams that can win a cup. 

[MAC331]

10 hours ago, kehatch said:

That was a good game. Monahan and Gaudreau were committed defensively. The entire team was. If they can do that consistently then we have a hockey team. 

 

Like I said, we aren't a top heavy team. We need to be strong and consistent across all lines and pairings and leverage our depth. 

 

The challenge will be doing that consistently. Any NHL team can do it for a stretch, but the teams that can string that together are the teams that can win a cup. 

It appears BP is going for measured progress given a few of his comments after last night's game. He has been experimenting throughout October and this doesn't breed consistency, which should come as lines and pairings get settled in. We also need Smith to play more like he did last night.

[Cubicon]

10 hours ago, kehatch said:

That was a good game. Monahan and Gaudreau were committed defensively. The entire team was. If they can do that consistently then we have a hockey team. 

 

Like I said, we aren't a top heavy team. We need to be strong and consistent across all lines and pairings and leverage our depth. 

 

The challenge will be doing that consistently. Any NHL team can do it for a stretch, but the teams that can string that together are the teams that can win a cup. 

 

And we've seen this story play out before. A Flames team that isn't playing up to expectations has an absolutely embarrassing game. Right after that, they get their Satoshi Nakamoto together and look like the team we've all been expecting... only for it to drop back off to mediocrity again after a week.

 

I think we'll see around game 20 what this team is really made of. If we haven't lost a step by then, maybe things will be different this year.

[MAC331]

14 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Mac, as a mod, I am trying to regulate the threads.

We make judgement calls, and I felt you were being disrespectful.

You don;t want to follow the rules, then you will be shown the ban hammer.

Keep it civil please.

It is hard some days with certain posters.

[jjgallow]

 

Wow.....

 

I entirely missed this thread and I think I may have been born for it lol.  How did this even happen, it was almost archived.

 

Ok, first of all..  Bronco, dick move.

 

Second of all, Bronco is usually a pretty stellar guy so already forgiven and we all make dumb posts.    If you'll believe it...even I have done this.  Once.

 

Thirdly, I think it is great that dick is not on the filter list    Not that it matters dick all.

 

 

So, straight up, kehatch was right..  we had serious issues and it showed in the playoffs.

 

Fourthly, the Oilers have already destroyed so many prospect careers already it's not even funny.  If they really cared about the state of hockey they'd trade McDavid to us right now because it's pretty clear they are not equiped to handle that talent level.    Like seriously, it's getting to the point where the NHL should step in if McDavid doesn't make a move himself.      As for future drafts, quite frankly Somebody had better tank lower than the Oilers or pretty soon prospects are going to refuse getting drafted.

 

Let's be honest, what is happening in Edmonton is beyond which city is better.   What is happening in Edmonton is now ruining a generation of hockey and it wasn't the fact that they got McDavid.  Or Hall.   Or Everle.   Or the Nuge.   Or Draisaitl.   Or Nurse.   Or Yakupov.

 

It is What happened after.  And none of us know exactly what that is but it's not good.

 

 

All that said,

 

It "Burn it Down" doesn't have to mean tank.  there are a Lot of ways to "burn it down".   Niewendyk for Iginla is a good example of that.  Gilmour for Leeman less so.

 

You Can be competitive starting from nothing, Las Vegas Nights style.

 

You can be classy.   You can make moves as an organization without ruining careers, or a generation of hockey.

 

Nobody faulted the Oilers for rebuilding.  they were faulted for how shamelessly and carelessly they handled the careers of those new players.  

 

Two words:

 

"Oil Change"

[travel_dude]

^^^^

Just to set the record straight, this was a reaction thread by Kehatch after the way the season started.

Smith crapping the bed and the D looking lost.

This season we may well see an early slide, at which time I expect to see a lot jumping ship.

We saw it last year, even during the game threads.

 

 

[jjgallow]

sorry for the lack of context.

 

Yeah I was one of them, I figured we were doomed.   And then somehow the Flames just took over.

 

The playoffs were another matter.   For myself, it would be hard for me to get excited again until the playoffs.   I'll never jump ship but I'll probably spend a lot of time on the plank.

[travel_dude]

11 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

sorry for the lack of context.

 

Yeah I was one of them, I figured we were doomed.   And then somehow the Flames just took over.

 

The playoffs were another matter.   For myself, it would be hard for me to get excited again until the playoffs.   I'll never jump ship but I'll probably spend a lot of time on the plank.

 

 

In all seriousness, this thread will be dead unless we falter out of the blocks.

[ABC923]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

In all seriousness, this thread will be dead unless we falter out of the blocks.

Don't we always though?  Slow starts are a flames tradition...

[robrob74]

34 minutes ago, ABC923 said:

Don't we always though?  Slow starts are a flames tradition...

 

Yes, slow starts to start a game and slow starts to start a season.... 

 

 

[travel_dude]

39 minutes ago, ABC923 said:

Don't we always though?  Slow starts are a flames tradition...

That's not really a fair statement.

Last year, we lost to VAN in game 1 and beat them 7-4 in game 2.

Up and down after that until we lose to MTL and PITTS.

Then the sky was falling.

What made it depressing was losing to VAN, a team that should have been in the basement the entire year.

 

The previous year we lost to EDM in game 1.

After that we won a bunch and then lost a bunch.

Again, losing to EDM in game 1 was bad.

Shut out loss with McD getting a breakaway after hooking the polayer to get the puck.

That ends up being a penalty shot.

 

What happens in Flames land is we try out players in the start that should never be there.

Training camp guys.

Grossmann.

Bartman.

Lack.

The Gooch.

Potter.

 

Shall I continue?  I really hope that Tkachuk gets and stays in shape regardless of when he signs. 

We can't have a Gaudreau or Nylander delay impact.

[jjgallow]

um....

 

all I really care about are the playoffs and our poor finish to be honest.

 

a lot on here thought we had a poor start, I was amazed at how well we did.    It wasn't until the end of the reason, when we fell apart, and the playoffs, that I started to see some of the concerns materialize.

 

Ssssooooooooo.... we're....really strong in the middle of the regular....season?   to be fair, best-in-the-NHL strong.

 

but that, to me, is a "burn it down" justification right there.    But I'm not talking about Edmonton-style scorched-earth failure.

the only reason "burn it down" clicks is cause, well... we da Flames anyway lol.

 

What you're talking about is a few key personel changes to become a team with eyes on the cup.     that's all.  Your best players can't be so diminutive that they are inneffective in the playoffs.   Complaining about playoff rules on here is not a strategy.      Trying to hide them behind a bunch of Lucics is Not a strategy.

 

Your best players can't also be in decline.   So yeah   Gio and Gaudreau become part of this conversation.   And apparently Lucic now because...wow.

 

The alternative is letting it burn itself down.   There is no fairly tail ending with a team that can't compete in the playoffs.

[robrob74]

32 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

um....

 

all I really care about are the playoffs and our poor finish to be honest.

 

a lot on here thought we had a poor start, I was amazed at how well we did.    It wasn't until the end of the reason, when we fell apart, and the playoffs, that I started to see some of the concerns materialize.

 

Ssssooooooooo.... we're....really strong in the middle of the regular....season?   to be fair, best-in-the-NHL strong.

 

but that, to me, is a "burn it down" justification right there.    But I'm not talking about Edmonton-style scorched-earth failure.

the only reason "burn it down" clicks is cause, well... we da Flames anyway lol.

 

What you're talking about is a few key personel changes to become a team with eyes on the cup.     that's all.  Your best players can't be so diminutive that they are inneffective in the playoffs.   Complaining about playoff rules on here is not a strategy.      Trying to hide them behind a bunch of Lucics is Not a strategy.

 

Your best players can't also be in decline.   So yeah   Gio and Gaudreau become part of this conversation.   And apparently Lucic now because...wow.

 

The alternative is letting it burn itself down.   There is no fairly tail ending with a team that can't compete in the playoffs.

 

 

You can call me a pessimist but I feel that throughout whole season the team had glimpses of glimmer, but it was the fact that it was in glimpses and never a full team thing going on that had me down. It was, "it will all come together, we just have to work out the rest of the roster." When the other parts of the roster came together, the parts that were working fell apart. This is why I am not sure status quo will work. Other teams have "figured out" Gaudreau and our system. 

 

To me, it's like they let him play to start, he gets a lot of points, and then when the games become more important they concentrate on shutting them down. And he still gets some points but not enough.