Burn it Down?

[jjgallow]

28 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

You can call me a pessimist but I feel that throughout whole season the team had glimpses of glimmer, but it was the fact that it was in glimpses and never a full team thing going on that had me down. It was, "it will all come together, we just have to work out the rest of the roster." When the other parts of the roster came together, the parts that were working fell apart. This is why I am not sure status quo will work. Other teams have "figured out" Gaudreau and our system. 

 

To me, it's like they let him play to start, he gets a lot of points, and then when the games become more important they concentrate on shutting them down. And he still gets some points but not enough. 

 

Pessimist!

 

I saw some light.  It was better than my worst fears.   I learned.   

 

Maybe you don't need to start from zero.   I think we have some good pieces and I will admit they are better pieces than I thought a year ago.   But the end of the season and the playoffs...basically when things mattered...were ultimately aweful.

 

So I am saying I think we need some significant changes imho.    Now if that doesn't happen,  and we just tweak like what we just saw with Lucic, then we really could be heading I to a full rebuild after this season.     Things can turn real quick.

 

[travel_dude]

55 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

um....

 

all I really care about are the playoffs and our poor finish to be honest.

 

a lot on here thought we had a poor start, I was amazed at how well we did.    It wasn't until the end of the reason, when we fell apart, and the playoffs, that I started to see some of the concerns materialize.

 

Ssssooooooooo.... we're....really strong in the middle of the regular....season?   to be fair, best-in-the-NHL strong.

 

but that, to me, is a "burn it down" justification right there.    But I'm not talking about Edmonton-style scorched-earth failure.

the only reason "burn it down" clicks is cause, well... we da Flames anyway lol.

 

What you're talking about is a few key personel changes to become a team with eyes on the cup.     that's all.  Your best players can't be so diminutive that they are inneffective in the playoffs.   Complaining about playoff rules on here is not a strategy.      Trying to hide them behind a bunch of Lucics is Not a strategy.

 

Your best players can't also be in decline.   So yeah   Gio and Gaudreau become part of this conversation.   And apparently Lucic now because...wow.

 

The alternative is letting it burn itself down.   There is no fairly tail ending with a team that can't compete in the playoffs.

 

The accountability for the playoff debacle has to extend beyond two players.

If Johnny doesn't pick up points, you can look to the people he was passing to, 5v5 and PP.

If your top shutdown forward is ineffective at stopping the AVS top line, then that's an easy thing to point to.

If your top D-man is leting people walk by him, thn where do you stand a chance without a Binginton.

Crucial stats in a 5 game stinker series:

Backlund -5

Lindholm -5

Tkachuk -4

Hamonic -4

Gio -3

Neal -3

Hanifin -3

 

Lots of blame, and you can't just say Gaudreau and Monahan were wiffy.

 

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

So I am saying I think we need some significant changes imho.    Now if that doesn't happen,  and we just tweak like what we just saw with Lucic, then we really could be heading I to a full rebuild after this season.     Things can turn real quick.

 

Maybe, maybe not.  We haven't had a team with a good goalie from start to finish since.......

You might argue that the Flames Peter'd off the last month of the season, not because we have the wrong team, but because we failed to make that suble set of channges when things were going wrong. 

Frolik for Zucker?  Maybe nothing different, but Frolik bounced around after the failed trade.

Bury Neal?  Nothing could have been worse than remaining the same.

Look at analytics and figure it the cause of the top line slumping.  And fix it.

 

Looch doesn;t fix anything, nor was that the real intent.

Maybe he punches Staal in the nads after hacking JH.

Maybe he offers to go over Bennett or Hamonic once in a blue moon.

Other than that, he is a N/S player that skates like the glaciers.

No worse than what we saw from Neal.

[Cowtownguy]

23 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Maybe, maybe not.  We haven't had a team with a good goalie from start to finish since.......

You might argue that the Flames Peter'd off the last month of the season, not because we have the wrong team, but because we failed to make that suble set of channges when things were going wrong. 

Frolik for Zucker?  Maybe nothing different, but Frolik bounced around after the failed trade.

Bury Neal?  Nothing could have been worse than remaining the same.

Look at analytics and figure it the cause of the top line slumping.  And fix it.

 

Looch doesn;t fix anything, nor was that the real intent.

Maybe he punches Staal in the nads after hacking JH.

Maybe he offers to go over Bennett or Hamonic once in a blue moon.

Other than that, he is a N/S player that skates like the glaciers.

No worse than what we saw from Neal.

As Cartman says, "Kick 'em in the neeeuuuuts!" I will say that at least I will get the satisfaction of seeing Lucic address the JH hacking phenomenon. That has been driving me insaner for years.

[rickross]

Burn it down? Sounds a bit extreme...but what happens if the Flames fail to qualify for the playoffs this year? It’d be a massive disappointment but unfortunately I think it’s always a possibility with this team. It’s been years since we’ve qualified for back to back playoff berths. Our trend would have us missing this year. Do u fire BT? Bill Peters ? Or do u keep the management intact and ship the players out??

[robrob74]

14 minutes ago, rickross said:

Burn it down? Sounds a bit extreme...but what happens if the Flames fail to qualify for the playoffs this year? It’d be a massive disappointment but unfortunately I think it’s always a possibility with this team. It’s been years since we’ve qualified for back to back playoff berths. Our trend would have us missing this year. Do u fire BT? Bill Peters ? Or do u keep the management intact and ship the players out??

 

It depends. I see the team drafting NHL players with emphasis on skill, but it seems to be the only clear criteria the team has in building. I feel like there is decent depth but in my opinion the wrong kind. There are a few holes, which will happen, but I feel the mix isn’t quite Cup worthy and yet the mix to get out of the first round. 

 

So it depends on whether owners think he doesn’t have the extensive vision beyond what is being applied now. I see a vision and I am not sure it is the one that wins cups.

[rickross]

35 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

It depends. I see the team drafting NHL players with emphasis on skill, but it seems to be the only clear criteria the team has in building. I feel like there is decent depth but in my opinion the wrong kind. There are a few holes, which will happen, but I feel the mix isn’t quite Cup worthy and yet the mix to get out of the first round. 

 

So it depends on whether owners think he doesn’t have the extensive vision beyond what is being applied now. I see a vision and I am not sure it is the one that wins cups.

We aren’t a Stanley Cup contender just yet, last year had us trending in the right direction..until the playoffs put us in our place. BT has definitely tried to improve this team on all facets but I hear ya...do we have the right pieces to get it done now? If this team falls off a cliff this year after all the success of last season then I don’t think there’s many options other than to reset. Whatever we’ve been doing has worked. I still don’t trust this team to make it past the 1st rd...if they can qualify that is!

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, rickross said:

We aren’t a Stanley Cup contender just yet, last year had us trending in the right direction..until the playoffs put us in our place. BT has definitely tried to improve this team on all facets but I hear ya...do we have the right pieces to get it done now? If this team falls off a cliff this year after all the success of last season then I don’t think there’s many options other than to reset. Whatever we’ve been doing has worked. I still don’t trust this team to make it past the 1st rd...if they can qualify that is!

 

Have to be an extreme fall, wouldn't it.

Hiller to Hiller/Ramo

Elliott to Smith/Lack/rittich/Gillies/Smith

 

Haven't we stabilized a bit in nets over those teams?

Also, the years we made the playoffs we were overachieving just to barely make it in.

Last year we had a good team that lost a lot of game due to Smith's struggles.

 

I admit that Talbot is risky, but not lik going with really old goalies at the end of their careers.

The trick to getting the 2nd round is playing the right team at the right time.

AVS were the wrong team the way we finished out the season.

SJS or Vegas would have been a better choice.

Next year who knows.

 

[robrob74]

57 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Have to be an extreme fall, wouldn't it.

Hiller to Hiller/Ramo

Elliott to Smith/Lack/rittich/Gillies/Smith

 

Haven't we stabilized a bit in nets over those teams?

Also, the years we made the playoffs we were overachieving just to barely make it in.

Last year we had a good team that lost a lot of game due to Smith's struggles.

 

I admit that Talbot is risky, but not lik going with really old goalies at the end of their careers.

The trick to getting the 2nd round is playing the right team at the right time.

AVS were the wrong team the way we finished out the season.

SJS or Vegas would have been a better choice.

Next year who knows.

 

 

For me it’s jusT killer instinct. Either you come to play or you don’t. Maybe that’s what some failure teaches you. But perhaps some players just don’t have it. I think Bennett is that type that has it. 

[LouCifer]

28 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

For me it’s jusT killer instinct. Either you come to play or you don’t. Maybe that’s what some failure teaches you. But perhaps some players just don’t have it. I think Bennett is that type. 

 

Killer instinct ranks very high for me in player assessment. I agree Bennett has it. I agree others don’t. I often use the killer instinct gif of Cinder below in my posts after a flames victory. We could use a few more players that have that quality. 

 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, rickross said:

We aren’t a Stanley Cup contender just yet, last year had us trending in the right direction..until the playoffs put us in our place. BT has definitely tried to improve this team on all facets but I hear ya...do we have the right pieces to get it done now? If this team falls off a cliff this year after all the success of last season then I don’t think there’s many options other than to reset. Whatever we’ve been doing has worked. I still don’t trust this team to make it past the 1st rd...if they can qualify that is!

 

Ya, I hear you. I think that the first line are a lot like the Twins in Vancouver. They took a lot of beating and turned their cheeks the other way. Johnny kind of gets mad at the officials. 

 

Monny is a tough mother-f’er but soft in other ways. The problem our our team will face, if we stay the same, the playoffs have a new set of rules, therefore they will get even more pounded.

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, lou44291 said:

 

Killer instinct ranks very high for me in player assessment. I agree Bennett has it. I agree others don’t. I often use the killer instinct gif of Cinder below in my posts after a flames victory. We could use a few more players that have that quality. 

 

 

I sometimes wonder if it starts with the coach? I mean, their systems need to start with it.

 

the Pens won the on skill by being fast on the back check and bringing a fast game to other teams. They cut lanes down fast, made it harder for the other teams. They didn’t have to defend in their zone as often.

 

If we want to be skilled and have smaller players, we need to play that way. Cut down on the high end scoring chances against by being a fast puck pressure team. I get teams turn the puck over and give up chances, but for me it is where and when they occur. It makes it tough on the goalies. 

[LouCifer]

Unlike some other posters, I do want to say that I believe in the direction of this team, and I believe in the staff managing it. 

 

Yes, there seems to be a focus on talent in the draft, and I think that’s played out very well for us. I may be missing some players, but we have andersson, kylington, mangiapane, Valimaki, janko, and dube (knocking at the door) who have all come up the ranks and graduated to the big leagues. It’s internal success like this that gives us opportunity and flexibility for trades. Look at our D for instance, a position of strength that allows us to entertain trades for Brodie. The salary cap being what it is this year reduced the number of teams who could entertain a Brodie trade, but, if we continue to draft well, we will find ourselves in a position to trade assets to fill those perceived areas of weakness on our team. 

[rickross]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Have to be an extreme fall, wouldn't it.

Hiller to Hiller/Ramo

Elliott to Smith/Lack/rittich/Gillies/Smith

 

Haven't we stabilized a bit in nets over those teams?

Also, the years we made the playoffs we were overachieving just to barely make it in.

Last year we had a good team that lost a lot of game due to Smith's struggles.

 

I admit that Talbot is risky, but not lik going with really old goalies at the end of their careers.

The trick to getting the 2nd round is playing the right team at the right time.

AVS were the wrong team the way we finished out the season.

SJS or Vegas would have been a better choice.

Next year who knows.

 

Flames played at a high level for most of the regular season. They’ll have to reach an elite level of play come playoff time. Somehow, whether the chips simply fall in place and they play the “right” teams at the right time or they just steamroll teams to the Cup, the Flames need to attain that elite level. 

 

I dont mind Talbot, he balances out the Smith/Neal for Lucic/Talbot swaps..they get Neal who’s more likely for a bounce back year and we get Talbot who’s the goalie most likely to rebound. Our net seems to be stabilizing but u plug one hole only to have to fill another. We’ll have to keep in mind there’s a strong chance we’ll be without Frolik/Brodie this year. This could impact the team in some unforeseen way..u don’t know what you got til it’s gone as Joni Mitchell once said lol

[rickross]

37 minutes ago, lou44291 said:

 

Killer instinct ranks very high for me in player assessment. I agree Bennett has it. I agree others don’t. I often use the killer instinct gif of Cinder below in my posts after a flames victory. We could use a few more players that have that quality. 

 

Lol..that $hit cracked me up! I still have the original N64 cartridge 

[LouCifer]

20 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I sometimes wonder if it starts with the coach? I mean, their systems need to start with it.

 

the Pens won the on skill by being fast on the back check and bringing a fast game to other teams. They cut lanes down fast, made it harder for the other teams. They didn’t have to defend in their zone as often.

 

If we want to be skilled and have smaller players, we need to play that way. Cut down on the high end scoring chances against by being a fast puck pressure team. I get teams turn the puck over and give up chances, but for me it is where and when they occur. It makes it tough on the goalies. 

 

I don’t think the coach can teach killer instinct. He can preach it, but I believe that is something innate in a player. Like you said, he has it or he doesn’t. What I believe good coaches do is evaluate and assess the strengths and weaknesses of his team, and then develop a game plan that plays to his team’s strengths. Not unlike the game of chess, your strategy must change as you lose pieces on the chessboard. I liked your example of Pittsburgh because they played a style that fit the makeup and roster on that team. As a different example, those New Jersey teams that won cups played a trap style that once again fit the player personnel on those teams. In my eyes, a good coach doesn’t bring the same system to every team he coaches - he has to re-evaluate every team he coaches and decidedly draft a plan and system that gives that collection of players the best opportunity to play to their strengths. 

[LouCifer]

10 minutes ago, rickross said:

Lol..that $hit cracked me up! I still have the original N64 cartridge 

 

Me too. One of my faves that I still play every now and then. Don’t know if you heard but Microsoft bought the franchise and released a new version not too long ago that is available on PC and Xbox One. It was recently on sale for $9.99 (that one purchase allows for the game to be installed on both PC and X1) and I must admit it’s damn good. Give it a look maybe! 😄👍🏻

 

*edit - looks like it jumped back up to $50 cad. It goes on sale for $10 throughout the year. There’s a free version that is limited if you want to check it out. 

[rickross]

4 minutes ago, lou44291 said:

 

Me too. One of my faves that I still play every now and then. Don’t know if you heard but Microsoft bought the franchise and released a new version not too long ago that is available on PC and Xbox One. It was recently on sale for $9.99 (that one purchase allows for the game to be installed on both PC and X1) and I must admit it’s damn good. Give it a look maybe! 😄👍🏻

Oh yea fully aware of the updated version! Nothing beats the Rare made classic tho! It’d actually be hilarious after an insane flurry of saves by the goalie or players having multiple pts nights...or even just Lucic laying someone out in a fight if they’d drop an “ULTRAAA COMBOOOOOOO!!!”

[rickross]

Hopefully Chiarelli gets the GM position in Minny!...we could make him do all kinds of tricks! Give up Dumba and Dubnyk retain salary and somehow throw in a 1st because it’s the way of the Chia Pet!

[The_Tribal Chief]

I Think Part of the Issue is this And hopefully Lucic can help with some of it is you get into the Playoffs and The avs literally took libertys on Jh And alot with slashing etc etc now the thing is you can have all the killer instinct in the world but if your being hacked and slashed everytime you turn around then killer instinct Means Very Little now that Is were we need someone to start Sticking up for the Players on that top line to help Protect against crap like that Cause we all know What the Refs call in regular Season is never the same in the playoffs

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

3 hours ago, The_Snowbear said:

I Think Part of the Issue is this And hopefully Lucic can help with some of it is you get into the Playoffs and The avs literally took libertys on Jh And alot with slashing etc etc now the thing is you can have all the killer instinct in the world but if your being hacked and slashed everytime you turn around then killer instinct Means Very Little now that Is were we need someone to start Sticking up for the Players on that top line to help Protect against crap like that Cause we all know What the Refs call in regular Season is never the same in the playoffs

That's why I like the idea of trying Bennett on the top RW for more than 2-3 games. Having Lucic on the 3rd line doesn't help as much as having  someone stick up on the ice when it happens.

[jjgallow]

So....a little bump here.

 

I know some people hate this thread.   I happen to agree with most of what kehatch said except for the "tank a few years" part.    I think that's avoidable.   I would say, accept the risk of short term loss for the promise of long term gain.   

 

It's still too early for this thread.  However, trade deadlines can sneak up on you.

 

Some questions:  IF the mood here turns, and supporters become favorable to more drastic measures, where do they see those starting?

 

Do you start with the players, or management?    To completely botch a rebuild is no small thing.  Now, this isn't a complete botch.  But we definitely didn't do a rebuild so that we could become an average team.

 

When does the direction change?     This trade deadline?    The offseason?   The year after?

 

Just a pulse check here.   It's too early and yet it's not so far away.

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

It's still too early for this thread.

 

Nuff said.

[The_People1]

44 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

But we definitely didn't do a rebuild so that we could become an average team.

 

Noo... I think some of us wanted to rush out of the basement and become an average team.  No patience.

 

Luckily, the difference between the Flames and a Cup team like the Blues is not far.  So much parity in the NHL today.  It feels like we are 2 players away from winning it all.

[cross16]

While I agree that you don't rebuild to be an average team I also think it's difficult to question the rebuild. The only issue I have with it is they didn't land a number one center. That's why you rebuild is to get that all important piece and i didn' thappen for the Flames and looking back I don't think it was due to anything they did. sure in 2013 you wish they would have dealt Kipper and then lost more down the stretch but Kipper refused the trade. In 2016 you thought it was Bennett and it didn't work out unforutnatley and while I don't thikn the Flames did a great job developing him, it's also pretty clear his scouting report was a miss. You don't go from a number one center projection to where Bennett is today based on development, something was missed. I know people are going to point to the Hamilton trade and Barzal but agian to me that's luck. Barzal should not have been there and if he was taking in the top 10 like he should have been we are not having this conversation, so tough to put that on the team IMO. Also trading for a 21 year old RS Top pairing dman also makes a ton of sense during a rebuild. 

 

I also agree with Peeps that despite the recent play this is still a talented team and can do more especially in a parity league. I also happen to beelive that is things go south it's not exactly a bad thing either. Hamonic, Frolik, Brodie are all pending UFAs and can all net you assets at the deadline, you've got all your picks and you've still got a pretty young core and with good young players. A reboot isn't the end of the world.