2023 Offseason

[The_People1]

39 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The what is not so much the problem, as X's and O's are more or less just strategy.

Mind games and negative motivation is old school.

Like a manager that berates you in front of co-workers.

So 80's.

 

Yups.  Sutter is a hockey genius.  His X's and O's are good.  The Flames played a very disciplined team game made for the skills they had.   

 

But he couldn't get guys to get going, especially Huberdeau who was a big let down and a missed opportunity for this team to make the playoffs.  And because of this, it's the right move for a new coach to come in and give it a try.  By all accounts, Huska builds very good personal relationships with his players so it could be a welcome change... My only reserve is that he was there in the room last season and it didn't seem to help.  We shall see.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yups.  Sutter is a hockey genius.  His X's and O's are good.  The Flames played a very disciplined team game made for the skills they had.   

 

But he couldn't get guys to get going, especially Huberdeau who was a big let down and a missed opportunity for this team to make the playoffs.  And because of this, it's the right move for a new coach to come in and give it a try.  By all accounts, Huska builds very good personal relationships with his players so it could be a welcome change... My only reserve is that he was there in the room last season and it didn't seem to help.  We shall see.

 

Sutter's X's and O's were one approach to hockey and were not always the right one for given situations.  Are you going to neuter your top line to play power vs power?  Or trot out 4th lines just because that's how you roll lines?  Play 4th line after the PP, since you know they aren't going to have anyone breaking out of the box to potentially go on offense?

 

Zone defense works, but isn't the only thing that can.  And what happens when it doesn't work.  

 

I'm not here to criticize the coaching from last year or suggest it will be that much better this year.  It was pretty toxic, regardless of your age.  And if a vet has to turn around and pump back up a player torn down by a coach, then you are not using two players properly.  

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Sutter's X's and O's were one approach to hockey and were not always the right one for given situations.  Are you going to neuter your top line to play power vs power?  Or trot out 4th lines just because that's how you roll lines?  Play 4th line after the PP, since you know they aren't going to have anyone breaking out of the box to potentially go on offense?

 

Zone defense works, but isn't the only thing that can.  And what happens when it doesn't work.  

 

I'm not here to criticize the coaching from last year or suggest it will be that much better this year.  It was pretty toxic, regardless of your age.  And if a vet has to turn around and pump back up a player torn down by a coach, then you are not using two players properly.  

 

X's and O's wasn't the main reason we missed the playoffs though.  You could argue goaltending.  You could argue timely goals.  In general, the X's and O's fit this team based on a lack of skills and scoring power.

 

But good point about making in game adjustments.  Sutter didn't do it.  Stuck to the game plan when it's clear things needed slight tweak.  He's stubborn that way.

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

X's and O's wasn't the main reason we missed the playoffs though.  You could argue goaltending.  You could argue timely goals.  In general, the X's and O's fit this team based on a lack of skills and scoring power.

 

But good point about making in game adjustments.  Sutter didn't do it.  Stuck to the game plan when it's clear things needed slight tweak.  He's stubborn that way.

 

I'm not sure the coaching tactics used on the goalies was good either.

When Vladar had a good game, he publicly said, well that's what he's paid to do, come in when needed.

Give him the hook more often than he would the starter.

Let him sit when he was on a roll.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I don't have a problem with Sutter per se.  He pushes buttons.  It's just, kids these days aren't made with the same buttons they used to be.  Different generation needs different motivational tactics.  If Sutter isn't able to adapt to the times then he should retire.

I don't have a problem with hard Hash Rate, being called out, especially if done behind closed doors. But allow players to make up for their mistakes, unless it's a really bad game. Sometimes a player just isn't on. I think the worst thing to do is bench when making mistakes, because it doesn't allow a player to atone. Players know when they do and try to make up for it by playing cleaner, generally that is. But once the coach shuts them down, not played, the player will be too tentative to play their game. 
 

 

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I'm not sure the coaching tactics used on the goalies was good either.

When Vladar had a good game, he publicly said, well that's what he's paid to do, come in when needed.

Give him the hook more often than he would the starter.

Let him sit when he was on a roll.

it could be just a feeling and not real. It felt like Sutter went against media just to spite them. Not necessarily spite, but was likeX I'm coach, I decide. He sits when I say sit...

 

then basically when clear Markstrom wasn't going, he had to play him to get going, which ended up not happening. So a lot of coaching going on. One philosophy against another. Not the same standards held for every player. 

[sak22]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I'm not sure the coaching tactics used on the goalies was good either.

When Vladar had a good game, he publicly said, well that's what he's paid to do, come in when needed.

Give him the hook more often than he would the starter.

Let him sit when he was on a roll.

Markstrom was pulled 4 times vs. Vladar's 1 this year and Vladar was never pulled last year.  Goaltending is a weird thing to complain about, numbers suggest they were both bad.

[travel_dude]

12 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Markstrom was pulled 4 times vs. Vladar's 1 this year and Vladar was never pulled last year.  Goaltending is a weird thing to complain about, numbers suggest they were both bad.

 

Ya got me.  When Vladar was pulled, there was no question from Sutter; had to make those saves.

Even a game where he replaced Marky, Sutter still questioned every goal.

Markstrom pulled to get the team goain.

 

It doesn't matter.

Only one goalie had a decent W-L record.

14-6-5

Compared to 23=21-12

[jjgallow]

21 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Ya got me.  When Vladar was pulled, there was no question from Sutter; had to make those saves.

Even a game where he replaced Marky, Sutter still questioned every goal.

Markstrom pulled to get the team goain.

 

It doesn't matter.

Only one goalie had a decent W-L record.

14-6-5

Compared to 23=21-12

 

this is what happens when you let Ortio go

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

this is what happens when you let Ortio go

 

 

LOLZ.

[The_Tribal Chief]

When do the Flames report to calgary for training camp fitness testing etc and all that

[Sarasti]

1 hour ago, The_Tribal Chief said:

When do the Flames report to calgary for training camp fitness testing etc and all that

 

Havent seen an official date yet, but on-ice sessions started sept. 22nd last year

[conundrumed]

4 hours ago, Sarasti said:

 

Havent seen an official date yet, but on-ice sessions started sept. 22nd last year

From a Huska interview I seem to recall Sept. 13th for the younger crowd and vets the following week. That's from my fading memory but I'm 95% certain 12 out of 13 times as algorithms and lawsuits go.

But the young stars tourney in Penticton starts Sept 15th so uncertain if that has changed since the interview(I'll try to find it).

edit

That was easy, sorry Rod Pedersen is the interviewer, the prototypical annoying sports blogger: :

And this is the hit he mentions...

 

[Sarasti]

14 hours ago, conundrumed said:

From a Huska interview I seem to recall Sept. 13th for the younger crowd and vets the following week. That's from my fading memory but I'm 95% certain 12 out of 13 times as algorithms and lawsuits go.

But the young stars tourney in Penticton starts Sept 15th so uncertain if that has changed since the interview(I'll try to find it).

edit

That was easy, sorry Rod Pedersen is the interviewer, the prototypical annoying sports blogger: :

And this is the hit he mentions...

 

 

Grazie! 

 

Good lord what a hit as well 😆 

[conundrumed]

I've been wondering if Serron Noel is worth a PTO for a while now. I remember his OHL days being an absolute handful. It seems like he has regressed, but he was always going to be a project. This will be his 23yo season. Pretty much down to desperation for him.

Here's a glimpse of his pre-draft yay-sayers, but I'm not sure why regression appears evident, whether injury or other:

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2018/NHL-Draft-Profiles/Serron-Noel

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

I've been wondering if Serron Noel is worth a PTO for a while now. I remember his OHL days being an absolute handful. It seems like he has regressed, but he was always going to be a project. This will be his 23yo season. Pretty much down to desperation for him.

Here's a glimpse of his pre-draft yay-sayers, but I'm not sure why regression appears evident, whether injury or other:

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2018/NHL-Draft-Profiles/Serron-Noel

 

He's not my first or 2nd or third choice, but, we've done worse in terms of PTOs.

 

If I were to bite, I'd ask what happened to him last year (basically missed season)...injury I guess?

 

On one hand I can think of a lot of other players I'd like to see with a PTO.   On the other hand, he would be better than what we've done in the past and at his size he could potentially translate well, and PTOs are free.   Even if he made things a little safer for our prospects, it would be a win.

[conundrumed]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

He's not my first or 2nd or third choice, but, we've done worse in terms of PTOs.

 

If I were to bite, I'd ask what happened to him last year (basically missed season)...injury I guess?

 

On one hand I can think of a lot of other players I'd like to see with a PTO.   On the other hand, he would be better than what we've done in the past and at his size he could potentially translate well, and PTOs are free.   Even if he made things a little safer for our prospects, it would be a win.

I'm just not sure if a PTO or AHL contract would be better. I think PTO, then get him to the Wranglers if he seems decent.

I would want it more to have him in the system if he's the gamer that he was in jr that made him a 2nd rder. We don't seem to have anything at RW after Coronato.

Just looking under rocks.lol

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

I'm just not sure if a PTO or AHL contract would be better. I think PTO, then get him to the Wranglers if he seems decent.

I would want it more to have him in the system if he's the gamer that he was in jr that made him a 2nd rder. We don't seem to have anything at RW after Coronato.

Just looking under rocks.lol

 

https://www.eliteprospects.com/league/whl/stats/2022-2023?position=rw&prospects=u21&sort=ppg

 

https://www.eliteprospects.com/league/ohl/stats/2022-2023?position=rw&prospects=u21&sort=ppg

 

they're out there.   more than usual imho.      why not a Hayes or Christopolous?

[conundrumed]

52 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

https://www.eliteprospects.com/league/whl/stats/2022-2023?position=rw&prospects=u21&sort=ppg

 

https://www.eliteprospects.com/league/ohl/stats/2022-2023?position=rw&prospects=u21&sort=ppg

 

they're out there.   more than usual imho.      why not a Hayes or Christopolous?

Hayes is with the Pens, I believe an A contract. Christopoulos' success was the product of being on a powerhouse team.

Both don't really stand out much from the average OHL player getting top-of-the-league linemates. My personal opinion of them not being noticeable when I've seen their teams. They weren't top players on the ice at any point that I can recall.

[jjgallow]

6 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Hayes is with the Pens, I believe an A contract. Christopoulos' success was the product of being on a powerhouse team.

Both don't really stand out much from the average OHL player getting top-of-the-league linemates. My personal opinion of them not being noticeable when I've seen their teams. They weren't top players on the ice at any point that I can recall.

 

k fine this guy's drafted but free agent

 

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/66131/taro-tsujimoto

[conundrumed]

6 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

k fine this guy's drafted but free agent

 

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/66131/taro-tsujimoto

People can harp about Punch Imlach, but I absolutely idolize his, "Blockchain you" attitude. Eddie Shack told a story about being benched and the crowd started chanting, "We Want Ed-die". After awhile the whole building was chanting and Punch went over to Shack and said, "if they want you so bad, why don't you go sit with them"? Classic.

But to the subject matter, rookie camp was the time to test undrafted young guys. I would have been good with the Sting Dmen Ethan Ritchie (Calum's brother) or Nolan Dillingham. But Ritchie went to Boston and Dillingham went to Toronto's rookie camp. Both signed AHL deals. Ritchie's a good puck moving dman and Dillingham is a very "find out" player in the "Blockchain around and find out" equation. He was the Sting captain. Takes too many penalties, imagine that.lol

Refs totally hawked him and he took a lot of non-penalties on reputation alone. Concussed one of the Leafs prospects with the thunderous hit. Zero surprise to Sting fans. That is EXACTLY him most games. Leafs fans were outraged at Dillingham. I like these 2 and they break it down and want to blame Dillingham but can't.

 

[The_People1]

10 hours ago, conundrumed said:

People can harp about Punch Imlach, but I absolutely idolize his, "Blockchain you" attitude. Eddie Shack told a story about being benched and the crowd started chanting, "We Want Ed-die". After awhile the whole building was chanting and Punch went over to Shack and said, "if they want you so bad, why don't you go sit with them"? Classic.

But to the subject matter, rookie camp was the time to test undrafted young guys. I would have been good with the Sting Dmen Ethan Ritchie (Calum's brother) or Nolan Dillingham. But Ritchie went to Boston and Dillingham went to Toronto's rookie camp. Both signed AHL deals. Ritchie's a good puck moving dman and Dillingham is a very "find out" player in the "Blockchain around and find out" equation. He was the Sting captain. Takes too many penalties, imagine that.lol

Refs totally hawked him and he took a lot of non-penalties on reputation alone. Concussed one of the Leafs prospects with the thunderous hit. Zero surprise to Sting fans. That is EXACTLY him most games. Leafs fans were outraged at Dillingham. I like these 2 and they break it down and want to blame Dillingham but can't.

 

 

It was a clean hit.

 

Many ways to look at it outside of the hit because a lesser prospect just ended a higher profile one.  Roni likely doesn't recover fully from this.  It was devastating.  The Leafs just lost a prospect.

 

I recall Patrick Selloff hit Sven Baertschi (from behind?) That one Flames rookie scrimmage and Baertschi was never the same again.

 

So that said, should players hit at development camp?  Do we want fringe prospects making a name for themselves on our own prospects?  I think that's the bigger issue and the counter argument is of course, if you can't survive hitting in a rookie scrimmage then you would never survive the real thing in the NHL.

[conundrumed]

14 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

It was a clean hit.

 

Many ways to look at it outside of the hit because a lesser prospect just ended a higher profile one.  Roni likely doesn't recover fully from this.  It was devastating.  The Leafs just lost a prospect.

 

I recall Patrick Selloff hit Sven Baertschi (from behind?) That one Flames rookie scrimmage and Baertschi was never the same again.

 

So that said, should players hit at development camp?  Do we want fringe prospects making a name for themselves on our own prospects?  I think that's the bigger issue and the counter argument is of course, if you can't survive hitting in a rookie scrimmage then you would never survive the real thing in the NHL.

Just to add, you don't invite Dillingham to your prospect camp without knowing how he plays. He didn't make that play for attention, he made it because that's precisely how he plays. You invited him because he plays a hard, physical game. He did zero out of character. This is quite literally why he's at your camp, and why you signed him to an AHL contract. If he's not playing that way, he's giving himself zero chance. That's how he plays. You wouldn't tell a sniper not to shoot.

Dillingham isn't a scrub, he was the captain of a powerhouse Sting team for a reason. Roni must have thought he was way better than the competition. He found out when that guy's on the ice, you'd better be paying attention. I was zero surprised that it was Dillingham. Every player in the O knew when he's out there you need a heightened sense of alert. He will find you if you think you can just prance around. You only make that mistake once.lol

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Just to add, you don't invite Dillingham to your prospect camp without knowing how he plays. He didn't make that play for attention, he made it because that's precisely how he plays. You invited him because he plays a hard, physical game. He did zero out of character. This is quite literally why he's at your camp, and why you signed him to an AHL contract. If he's not playing that way, he's giving himself zero chance. That's how he plays. You wouldn't tell a sniper not to shoot.

Dillingham isn't a scrub, he was the captain of a powerhouse Sting team for a reason. Roni must have thought he was way better than the competition. He found out when that guy's on the ice, you'd better be paying attention. I was zero surprised that it was Dillingham. Every player in the O knew when he's out there you need a heightened sense of alert. He will find you if you think you can just prance around. You only make that mistake once.lol

 

 

https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25-roni-hirvonen-is-8/

 

damn.   he's a mini-warrior.  unfortunate.

 

I was hit like this many moons ago and it was effectively the end of really competitive hockey for me.    You can recover though, just takes time.  I mean, look how well I turned out.

 

I agree Dillingham can't be blamed, but this is definitely not the best part of hockey imho and something that should be minimized.

 

To me, it looks like we had a smaller, but braver player (a European Mangiapane) used to walking that fine line of what he can get away with, and discovering that this line is different on North American ice.

 

A bunch of guys squished in a tiny space.  I do suspect that on European ice he would have danced around Dillingham in that same situation.

 

Hoping he recovers, he doesn't look like NHL material to me because this is literally his game, he would have to re-define himself on north american ice.   Or get much, much stronger and aware.   Whatever the case I hope he recovers.

 

I do think there are more things the NHL could do to minimize situations like this.  Not to blame anyone directly for this.    but it should be a consideration in things.     I am in a minority that believes we are building our arenas wrong, and the game could be much safer, skilled, and have more viewers with olympic-sized ice.

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Just to add, you don't invite Dillingham to your prospect camp without knowing how he plays. He didn't make that play for attention, he made it because that's precisely how he plays. You invited him because he plays a hard, physical game. He did zero out of character. This is quite literally why he's at your camp, and why you signed him to an AHL contract. If he's not playing that way, he's giving himself zero chance. That's how he plays. You wouldn't tell a sniper not to shoot.

Dillingham isn't a scrub, he was the captain of a powerhouse Sting team for a reason. Roni must have thought he was way better than the competition. He found out when that guy's on the ice, you'd better be paying attention. I was zero surprised that it was Dillingham. Every player in the O knew when he's out there you need a heightened sense of alert. He will find you if you think you can just prance around. You only make that mistake once.lol

 

Where do you feel should be the line?  If Dillingham makes the Leafs main roster, then should he be given the green light to line up Matthews and Marner during scrimmage?  I mean, all under the pretense that he's just trying to do his job?  There's practicing and then there's going to battle against the other team.  Maybe save these hits for the other team?