2023 Offseason

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Even Dumba might get stuck in this problematic offseason. Maybe he'd do a 1 year and wait for the climate to change. He hasn't signed yet, so it begs the question. I'd love to have him, but we seem frozen, almost begging players to stay, which is sad unto itself. Sitting on your hands wanting more doesn't inspire change.

 

I would sign Dumba as soon as Backlund is gone.  Doesn't mean we don't trade Hanifin, in fact it pushes Hanifin out.  Means we can just look at a deal that gets us top 6 F and/or top picks.  Dumba actually balances the D between top and bottom.  Leaves Oesterle fighting between Kylington and injury replacement.  Not a bad thing.  

 

Tarasenko would have been a good try out piece.  One year deal and we get a top return for him at TDL.  Or we take him into the playoffs and don't worry about an asset that cost only salary to get.

 

Again, it appears that we are frozen in fear.  Takes two to tango, but seems like we are unwilling to make any kind of trade. Sure it also can take time, but it's not a luxury we have once the season starts.  Backlund and Hanifin will become a distraction for the coach (pairs) and the players (do I re-sign?).  

[travel_dude]

We made the offer to Lindholm.  If it's the team direction holding his decision up, make a decision about the direction.  So far, I have really only seen a quasi direction from Maloney.

[The_People1]

7 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

We made the offer to Lindholm.  If it's the team direction holding his decision up, make a decision about the direction.  So far, I have really only seen a quasi direction from Maloney.

 

Considering Lindholm will likely repeat 65-points this season with the Flames, betting on himself is the dumbest financial advice he can take.  Flames are willing to go $9-mil x 8... Good luck getting $10-mil x 7 from UFA next summer with those kind of numbers.

[travel_dude]

15 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Considering Lindholm will likely repeat 65-points this season with the Flames, betting on himself is the dumbest financial advice he can take.  Flames are willing to go $9-mil x 8... Good luck getting $10-mil x 7 from UFA next summer with those kind of numbers.

 

You mean like a 33 year old Killorn with similar numbers gets over $6M x 4?  Just kidding.  I get what you are saying.  Then again Gaudreau messed up his contract by holding off.  I do suspect that he is looking for a team (if not here) that will give him a similar offer now to what we offered.  

[conundrumed]

41 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Considering Lindholm will likely repeat 65-points this season with the Flames, betting on himself is the dumbest financial advice he can take.  Flames are willing to go $9-mil x 8... Good luck getting $10-mil x 7 from UFA next summer with those kind of numbers.

$9 x 8 is not a great idea imho. Like I said, begging players to stay. There's a lot of players that would kill for an opportunity. If he won't do 6 years then move on. 6yrs can still extend to 8 years in the end. Provided he does his part.

$9 x 6 is fair for both sides. Years 7 & 8 at a cap hit of 9 isn't reasonable for the team. He can be extended in year 6 for however much more term & $. If he were 25, sure, $9x8 slaps.

[travel_dude]

15 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

$9 x 8 is not a great idea imho. Like I said, begging players to stay. There's a lot of players that would kill for an opportunity. If he won't do 6 years then move on. 6yrs can still extend to 8 years in the end. Provided he does his part.

$9 x 6 is fair for both sides. Years 7 & 8 at a cap hit of 9 isn't reasonable for the team. He can be extended in year 6 for however much more term & $. If he were 25, sure, $9x8 slaps.

 

6 years is close to ideal.  Maybe 4 or 5 slightly better, since the cap will make a $9M AAV seem average.  

[The_People1]

34 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

$9 x 8 is not a great idea imho. Like I said, begging players to stay. There's a lot of players that would kill for an opportunity. If he won't do 6 years then move on. 6yrs can still extend to 8 years in the end. Provided he does his part.

$9 x 6 is fair for both sides. Years 7 & 8 at a cap hit of 9 isn't reasonable for the team. He can be extended in year 6 for however much more term & $. If he were 25, sure, $9x8 slaps.

 

In other words, Lindholm should sign on the dotted line and run off to the bank immediately.  What's taking so long?  Fire his agent?

[travel_dude]

12 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

In other words, Lindholm should sign on the dotted line and run off to the bank immediately.  What's taking so long?  Fire his agent?

 

Perhaps he is thinking about the string of coaches we have had during his time here....

BP (quit), Wardo, Sutter, now Huska who has been with all 3.

[sak22]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Considering Lindholm will likely repeat 65-points this season with the Flames, betting on himself is the dumbest financial advice he can take.  Flames are willing to go $9-mil x 8... Good luck getting $10-mil x 7 from UFA next summer with those kind of numbers.

I think a lot of people said the same thing 2 years ago with 13.  I bet on the guy playing for a payday to do better more often than not, cross Aho off the list and his ranking on the top UFA's for 2024 climbs up 1 I think his financial advise is fine.

[tmac70]

If the speculated offer for Lindholm is on the table, and it hasn't been signed speaks volumes IMHO. What we have learned with JG and MT is that players will sign lower for the market they want. MT couldn't get out of his Sorels fast enough for sandals and took less. The taxes break thing is old as well, find a better accountant as they can work wonders for taxes. 

 

Secondly, the market for Lindholm and Hanifin may not be there and the second factor is we have SFA in prospects or roster players to replace them.  Lindy has been here long enough and knows the market, if it was simply the money this would be done. Going off of some interviews with past players, this organization has been an enigma of poor attitude for decades from coaches to players. 

 

It's a big decision for a guy like Lindholm to sign here long-term, the club is trending in the wrong direction more players are wanting out than wanting in. I can see why these guys want out, it would be like a breath of fresh air frankly. Once Hanfin, Lindholm, and Backs find new homes they will be rejuvenated by their moves. Just the thought of a change is probably enticing right now. 

[jjgallow]

24 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

It's a big decision for a guy like Lindholm to sign here long-term, the club is trending in the wrong direction more players are wanting out than wanting in. I can see why these guys want out, it would be like a breath of fresh air frankly. Once Hanfin, Lindholm, and Backs find new homes they will be rejuvenated by their moves. Just the thought of a change is probably enticing right now. 

 

I actually see it as the first time we've headed in the right direction in years.  If not decades.

 

I don't see it as a matter of hard feelings.   

 

I mean...we're in/entering a rebuild.  Straight up.  We're debating the fine points of it in here but the players know what's up.

 

Imho, it's a good thing.   But if you're an elite NHLer, and you have say 2-3 years left in your prime, do you want to spend those prime years on a team that has a shot at the cup or on a team that almost doesn't really need/want your production?

 

All of this is standard process.

 

Now, a decision still has to be made.  Because there Does exist a kind of player that says "yeah, I wanna be part of this.  I wanna be their Lanny.  I wanna lead by example, I wanna mentor, I wanna take care of my health and be there in some kind of support role when these kids grow up and rip the NHL apart".

 

Those players exist.  Of course, they aren't the majority.  So we go through this process.

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, sak22 said:

I think a lot of people said the same thing 2 years ago with 13.  I bet on the guy playing for a payday to do better more often than not, cross Aho off the list and his ranking on the top UFA's for 2024 climbs up 1 I think his financial advise is fine.

 

Just do that math.  $9 x 8 is $72-mil

 

How much does he have to make over 7-years to make more money?  And what stats? Hubderdeau scored 115 to land a $10.5-mil deal.  With the cap rising, does that mean Lindholm needs 95-points to get $10.5 x 7?

 

The risk is, Lindholm scored 65-points again and only gets offers like $7 x 7.

 

So upside of betting on himself is +$2 or $3-mil.  Downside is -$23-mil.

[sak22]

37 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Just do that math.  $9 x 8 is $72-mil

 

How much does he have to make over 7-years to make more money?  And what stats? Hubderdeau scored 115 to land a $10.5-mil deal.  With the cap rising, does that mean Lindholm needs 95-points to get $10.5 x 7?

 

The risk is, Lindholm scored 65-points again and only gets offers like $7 x 7.

 

So upside of betting on himself is +$2 or $3-mil.  Downside is -$23-mil.

$9 x 8 is what Jeff Skinner got and he hadn't even hit 65 points prior to signing that deal, why because a month before hitting UFA Buffalo panicked, if the guy isn't signed by next June whoever holds his rights would do the same unless he completely falls off like Skinner did after signing the deal.  He doesn't need to hit July 1, he just wants the team to panic in June 2024 and hit the max that they would offer, he knows that the offers for Johnny got better the closer to UFA.  The 8th year doesn't go away for another 330 days.  Only in your mind is every player only as good as their last year.  Jeff Skinner is also an example of a player who has had 2 of his best years of his career in his 30's after being written off.  I still think from his perspective he's doing fine waiting.

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, sak22 said:

$9 x 8 is what Jeff Skinner got and he hadn't even hit 65 points prior to signing that deal, why because a month before hitting UFA Buffalo panicked, if the guy isn't signed by next June whoever holds his rights would do the same unless he completely falls off like Skinner did after signing the deal.  He doesn't need to hit July 1, he just wants the team to panic in June 2024 and hit the max that they would offer, he knows that the offers for Johnny got better the closer to UFA.  The 8th year doesn't go away for another 330 days.  Only in your mind is every player only as good as their last year.  Jeff Skinner is also an example of a player who has had 2 of his best years of his career in his 30's after being written off.  I still think from his perspective he's doing fine waiting.

 

The Flames are already panicking offering $9 x 8.  Any sane team would only offer $9 x 6 max.  Are you thinking Flames would do $10 x 8 by pushing things to training camp?

[The_People1]

Also, I believe the default position on Lindholm is that he's traded before training camp if he's unsigned.  Conroy said he wants to avoid a Gaudreau situation.

 

There will be no July 1 2024 problem to deal with in regards to Lindholm.

[travel_dude]

10 hours ago, The_People1 said:

Also, I believe the default position on Lindholm is that he's traded before training camp if he's unsigned.  Conroy said he wants to avoid a Gaudreau situation.

 

There will be no July 1 2024 problem to deal with in regards to Lindholm.

 

I don't think there is an arbitrary date like that.  One would assume that they know a little about the thought process of the player.  There was no rejection of the offer.  So, they are likely proceeding as if he will sign or let them know he's not signing or wants a different offer.  They would listen to trade offers, but if the offers are not close to par value, they will just ignore them for now.  TC gives them the chance to show what the team looks like, so Lindholm has a better idea.  By then you are more likely to have conclusion to the two players that have signalled they want to move.  

 

Aho is the ceiling of a deal, so he knows what he would get elsewhere.  But I think this is about team and direction more than the offer.

[sak22]

11 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

The Flames are already panicking offering $9 x 8.  Any sane team would only offer $9 x 6 max.  Are you thinking Flames would do $10 x 8 by pushing things to training camp?

Over the past 5 season Lindholm has outproduced Barzal by almost 50 points while being more noted for defensive play and much better on faceoffs, Barzal got 8 x 9.15, his teammate Horvat has 60 points less over that same timespan and got 8x8.5, I see no reason why a sane person wouldn't want to be paid more than those guys, I know I would.  Also who are these sane teams that are giving out 6 year deals, Colorado gave Nichushkin 8 after 1 season of good top 6 production, Tampa's been giving out 8 to almost anyone, even Mikey Anderson got an 8 year deal.  I think you are not only underrating Lindholm, but overrating the rest of the league.  With a cap increase I fully expect the stupidity to return to pre-Covid levels.

[The_People1]

6 hours ago, sak22 said:

Over the past 5 season Lindholm has outproduced Barzal by almost 50 points while being more noted for defensive play and much better on faceoffs, Barzal got 8 x 9.15, his teammate Horvat has 60 points less over that same timespan and got 8x8.5, I see no reason why a sane person wouldn't want to be paid more than those guys, I know I would.  Also who are these sane teams that are giving out 6 year deals, Colorado gave Nichushkin 8 after 1 season of good top 6 production, Tampa's been giving out 8 to almost anyone, even Mikey Anderson got an 8 year deal.  I think you are not only underrating Lindholm, but overrating the rest of the league.  With a cap increase I fully expect the stupidity to return to pre-Covid levels.

 

Lindholm coming off a down year though.

 

I get the bet on himself argument.  I just think the odds are low for him.  Up side +$5-mil max.  Downside, -$20-mil easy.

 

Kadri only got $7 x 7 for example.

[Adrian_Flames_Fan]

I have read this article/report. 

NHL Rumors: Pius Suter Linked to New Team - NHL Trade Rumors - NHLTradeRumors.Me 
What do you think about the possibility? 
I see him as a valid replacement in case Backs is traded before training camp. Would probably also be a slightly cheaper solution than 3 C but defensively very strong. In addition, can also be used on the wings. 
And since I come from Switzerland, for me of course even more pleasing... although the Swiss in the dress of the Flames unfortunately could not convince so in the past ☺️🤔

[conundrumed]

22 hours ago, Adrian_Flames_Fan said:

I have read this article/report. 

NHL Rumors: Pius Suter Linked to New Team - NHL Trade Rumors - NHLTradeRumors.Me 
What do you think about the possibility? 
I see him as a valid replacement in case Backs is traded before training camp. Would probably also be a slightly cheaper solution than 3 C but defensively very strong. In addition, can also be used on the wings. 
And since I come from Switzerland, for me of course even more pleasing... although the Swiss in the dress of the Flames unfortunately could not convince so in the past ☺️🤔

Yes please.

Why doesn't Detroit keep him? They're roster is still in flux. They're trying to adjust where they need toughness here, skill over there, young guys coming up. So they can't really offer him much in the way of term although Suter is a highly effective player that can play anywhere. Bert's injuries had him at LW with Larkin-Raymond. 3rd & 4th line C or wing depending on matchups, solid PKer. very responsible defensively. He likes to change the speed of his shots. If he scores on what looked like he didn't get all of it, the replay will show that there is zero reason why he didn't. The goalie expected 1 speed, he sent a different one.

I like Suter a lot. We can literally put him anywhere and he won't hurt us.

I've been waiting to see where he might land and hoping that he gets some term. He's only 27 and without question a solid NHL player that plays a very responsible game and reads off of linemates really well as attested by last year when he literally lined up with the entire forward roster at various points. Quite literally a team player.lol

[travel_dude]

9 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Yes please.

Why doesn't Detroit keep him? They're roster is still in flux. They're trying to adjust where they need toughness here, skill over there, young guys coming up. So they can't really offer him much in the way of term although Suter is a highly effective player that can play anywhere. Bert's injuries had him at LW with Larkin-Raymond. 3rd & 4th line C or wing depending on matchups, solid PKer. very responsible defensively. He likes to change the speed of his shots. If he scores on what looked like he didn't get all of it, the replay will show that there is zero reason why he didn't. The goalie expected 1 speed, he sent a different one.

I like Suter a lot. We can literally put him anywhere and he won't hurt us.

I've been waiting to see where he might land and hoping that he gets some term. He's only 27 and without question a solid NHL player that plays a very responsible game and reads off of linemates really well as attested by last year when he literally lined up with the entire forward roster at various points. Quite literally a team player.lol

 

I'm guessing the high ending salary is either scaring off some or the player is wanting too much.

Can't see why a team hasn't yet signed him.

Worse case, PTO him.  Then sign to whatever he shows up as.

[conundrumed]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I'm guessing the high ending salary is either scaring off some or the player is wanting too much.

Can't see why a team hasn't yet signed him.

Worse case, PTO him.  Then sign to whatever he shows up as.

Not a chance that he will be doing a PTO. He's a solid player. He definitely has suters..

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Not a chance that he will be doing a PTO. He's a solid player. He definitely has suters..

i reallly think we should be seriously in on him...

[travel_dude]

4 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Not a chance that he will be doing a PTO. He's a solid player. He definitely has suters..

 

The middle class is getting squeezed out by the top earners.

If he was being sought after, you would think he would be signed by now.

[conundrumed]

11 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

The middle class is getting squeezed out by the top earners.

If he was being sought after, you would think he would be signed by now.

Not to me. I don't think getting signed is the concern. His worry is probably more where, how much, does he want term or wait for the cap to rise? He shouldn't be having a, say, Ritchie level of concern. He's much better than them and provides a fair bit more. You can look at Kubalik. His 1 timer is an absolute missile so he can score. But Suter is a much, much better player. The odd time Detroit was fully healthy last year, Kubalik was the healthy scratch, it would never be Suter.

Suter would play Kubalik's natural position if it came to that. You'd never scratch Suter. Nobody would understand that.lol

I thought he was just another, "Kane propped up tour stats" guy when the D signed him. Was I wrong.

If we sign him, everyone will give it the "whatever" like Wings fans did, until they actually see what he brings. Definitely never the guy that will hurt your roster. Playing all 3 F positions effectively is a testament to how well he understands roles. It's the opposite of say, moving Dube away from RW. He just doesn't seem as effective, right? Suter does it seamlessly, you don't notice any difference at all.

I'm thinking Suter is really good value at $3 per and see where it goes from there, is there term etc etc.

In the end, I fully expect Ronni to be the 3C in 2 years. Perhaps he signs an AHL try-out with the Wranglers following his Tappara season and we get his ELC fired up starting nest season. I'm pretty excited that he could make our roster at ELC money in time. Hopefully he's at camp this year but I'm unsure how it works with Liiga. He'd turn some heads for sure, as I laugh at where Flames prospect rankings have him. He's easily in the Top 5 for me. Top 3 more likely while everyone claims to understand ceilings while being silly about it.