Flames 22/23 Lineup

[CheersMan]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Ruzicka didn't earn it they just didn't want to lose him on waivers., they sat him to start the season, then preceded to watch many veterans struggle and still sat him. Didn't play him until players got banged up. Same with Gilbert, Desimone and Mackey they only got played due to injury and they barely got played at that. He also proceeded to rip almost all of them in the media. That isn't exactly opportunity. 

 

But I should re frame this because I'm not trying to suggesting Sutter hates young players or wont play them. My problem with the quote is it's very conservative and speaks to playing scared. We aren't comfortably in a playoff spot so I can't risk putting a young player in a key spot in my lineup, even though those spots in my lineups are underwhelming. I can't play a small player on my 4th line because that's not how a 4th line should work. 

 

it's his old school guidelines that are frustrating, not that he hates youth. Sutter's forgotten more about hockey then i'll ever know, but I've never been a fan of his development philosophy. it hurt the Flames before and it's hurting them again now IMO. The Flames need more skill in their lineup. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Well said.

+1

 

DS is a big fan of the AHL, he won't apologize to those who think its old school guidelines or flawed development philosophy, he believes every player should start there, put some time in and learn how to play the game and mature amongst men. When you understand how that works then the NHL could be the next step. He knows how tough it is to get out of the AHL, his son spent his entire career (1000+ games) less 60 games at that level.

 

DS has little time for the privileged, those who think they can bypass the learning curve. He’s probably had a few players who graduated quickly to the NHL, Iggy comes to mind, Kopitar maybe, sorry no time to research it.

 

We’ve all read over and over and over again about how some posters here feel we ruined certain players (ie. Bennett) by allowing entitlement to the big team, bypassing the learning curve at lesser levels. DS doesn’t hand out lolly pops, he’d rather put up minor road blocks for the long term benefits of the player.

 

Unlike last year, we are very much in a dog fight to the end of this regular season. 5-6 very good teams in the Western Conference are presently on the bubble, 3 of which will miss the playoffs by just a point or two, then fire their coach because of it. Which 3 of these 5 teams are missing? MIN, STL, CGY, NAS, LA.

 

If you were the head coach of any of these bubble teams what are you doing or not doing to pick up that extra point to help you get into the playoffs?

 

You can call DS scared but I think he has a reason to be, we are presently aligned to be 1 of the 3 to miss.

 

[The_People1]

28 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

 

 

DS is a big fan of the AHL, he won't apologize to those who think its old school guidelines or flawed development philosophy, he believes every player should start there, put some time in and learn how to play the game and mature amongst men. When you understand how that works then the NHL could be the next step. He knows how tough it is to get out of the AHL, his son spent his entire career (1000+ games) less 60 games at that level.

 

DS has little time for the privileged, those who think they can bypass the learning curve. He’s probably had a few players who graduated quickly to the NHL, Iggy comes to mind, Kopitar maybe, sorry no time to research it.

 

We’ve all read over and over and over again about how some posters here feel we ruined certain players (ie. Bennett) by allowing entitlement to the big team, bypassing the learning curve at lesser levels. DS doesn’t hand out lolly pops, he’d rather put up minor road blocks for the long term benefits of the player.

 

Unlike last year, we are very much in a dog fight to the end of this regular season. 5-6 very good teams in the Western Conference are presently on the bubble, 3 of which will miss the playoffs by just a point or two, then fire their coach because of it. Which 3 of these 5 teams are missing? MIN, STL, CGY, NAS, LA.

 

If you were the head coach of any of these bubble teams what are you doing or not doing to pick up that extra point to help you get into the playoffs?

 

You can call DS scared but I think he has a reason to be, we are presently aligned to be 1 of the 3 to miss.

 

 

I feel it goes beyond X's and O's but Sutter wants the kids to watch how the vets hit the gym hard after the game.  He wants the kids to see how the vets eat, sleep, and dedicate their life to preparing for 20-minutes of ice time every other day. Building good off ice habits and dropping the bad ones could sometimes take years.  Sutter drafted Dion Phaneuf and watched the kid decay before his eyes because he entered the NHL too young and got fame too early.

 

And of course the obvious.  Sutter wants to win the Cup now.  Playing kids require growing pains.  Giving Pelletier ice time today at the expense of winning means he'll be a great player in 3 years but Sutter is not even here that long.

[Heartbreaker]

4 hours ago, cross16 said:

Ruzicka didn't earn it they just didn't want to lose him on waivers...

 

Well said.

+2

 

Love.

[CheersMan]

16 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I feel it goes beyond X's and O's but Sutter wants the kids to watch how the vets hit the gym hard after the game.  He wants the kids to see how the vets eat, sleep, and dedicate their life to preparing for 20-minutes of ice time every other day. Building good off ice habits and dropping the bad ones could sometimes take years.  Sutter drafted Dion Phaneuf and watched the kid decay before his eyes because he entered the NHL too young and got fame too early.

 

And of course the obvious.  Sutter wants to win the Cup now.  Playing kids require growing pains.  Giving Pelletier ice time today at the expense of winning means he'll be a great player in 3 years but Sutter is not even here that long.

All true, except I'm not certain about the Phaneuf's downfall here, I remember the BIG hits, he contributed offensively but I think his defence began to fall. Seems to me he and Iggy had a feud maybe, possibly some knuckle sandwiches. Not sure and I'd hate to rekindle rumours.

[Heartbreaker]

48 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

... Not sure and I'd hate to rekindle rumours.

 

Do it! We could all use a bit of fofaca.

 

Love.

[travel_dude]

I think too many give Sutter more credit than perhaps he deserves,

Won cups with a killer team at the tops of their curve.

2004 is a different lifetime.

I love the work ethics that he preaches.

I detest the square pegs model of building a team.

Hammer it until it wins a game, so it must be right.

Not enough skill so lets not use more skill, let's slow the game down.

Play perfect, since that's the way you have to play when you don't use skill.

Whatever.

 

I was excited to have Hiberdeau and Kadri join the team.

Two players similar to what we just lost.

Hubey a bigger tougher Gaudreau.

Kadri a less dick version of Tkachuk.

What have we turned them into?

 

Funny because we are not that different from last year.

An improved Zaddy.

A replacement for Kylington.

Missing Guddy.

No Jarnkrok that couldn;t score.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, CheersMan said:

All true, except I'm not certain about the Phaneuf's downfall here, I remember the BIG hits, he contributed offensively but I think his defence began to fall. Seems to me he and Iggy had a feud maybe, possibly some knuckle sandwiches. Not sure and I'd hate to rekindle rumours.

 

No I meant like, going to clubs after the game and on the weekends during the season and stuff.  

[The_People1]

19 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

I think too many give Sutter more credit than perhaps he deserves,

Won cups with a killer team at the tops of their curve.

2004 is a different lifetime.

I love the work ethics that he preaches.

I detest the square pegs model of building a team.

Hammer it until it wins a game, so it must be right.

Not enough skill so lets not use more skill, let's slow the game down.

Play perfect, since that's the way you have to play when you don't use skill.

Whatever.

 

I was excited to have Hiberdeau and Kadri join the team.

Two players similar to what we just lost.

Hubey a bigger tougher Gaudreau.

Kadri a less dick version of Tkachuk.

What have we turned them into?

 

Funny because we are not that different from last year.

An improved Zaddy.

A replacement for Kylington.

Missing Guddy.

No Jarnkrok that couldn;t score.

 

Sutter can take a good roster and go all the way with it.

 

The issue with the Flames is we had an average roster and Sutter coached them to division winners last season.  So, with an average roster and major retool of core players this season, Sutter was asked to take the team to the next level.  It wasn't realistic.  And Sutter himself spoke about this back in November.  He said something like, "if our team last season had this average of a start, everybody would be optimistic instead of doom and gloom right now."

 

This isn't a Cup winning roster (yet) and should continue to retool younger but the Flames owners and Sutter want to rush it.  Sutter is a good coach but the timing is wrong.  Flames don't have the players yet.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Sutter can take a good roster and go all the way with it.

 

The issue with the Flames is we had an average roster and Sutter coached them to division winners last season.  So, with an average roster and major retool of core players this season, Sutter was asked to take the team to the next level.  It wasn't realistic.  And Sutter himself spoke about this back in November.  He said something like, "if our team last season had this average of a start, everybody would be optimistic instead of doom and gloom right now."

 

This isn't a Cup winning roster (yet) and should continue to retool younger but the Flames owners and Sutter want to rush it.  Sutter is a good coach but the timing is wrong.  Flames don't have the players yet.

 

Don't get me wrong, he has done good things.

But his decision making is suspect at times.

Maybe he sees something we don't.

Maybe he's relying on previous experience and think that choice worked before.

Whether you agree or not, he was outcoached by a young coach last playoffs.

Yeah, let's put Lucic out there when we need something.

Roll 4 lines because it's last man standing.

Goalie looks lost, but don't think about any switch.

 

Lost 2x40 goal scorers and we hear about it every day.

Had a player that came in and was a p/gp player.

Move him to the 4th line.

Don't reunite a line that was best defensive line we had until you try everything else.

Toffoli hasn't been a top 3 player in forever, if ever.

I like the player but don't expect him to carry the team in scoring.

Some reason we can't use Toffoli with Kadri and Ruzle?

Move Huberdeau to top line with Dube and Linholm.

You have two guys that can take strong side faceoffs.

Hubey has two target that can take a pass.

 

Anyway, moving on.  

We should get a win this week.

And a loss.

[conundrumed]

5 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Don't get me wrong, he has done good things.

But his decision making is suspect at times.

Maybe he sees something we don't.

Maybe he's relying on previous experience and think that choice worked before.

Whether you agree or not, he was outcoached by a young coach last playoffs.

Yeah, let's put Lucic out there when we need something.

Roll 4 lines because it's last man standing.

Goalie looks lost, but don't think about any switch.

 

Lost 2x40 goal scorers and we hear about it every day.

Had a player that came in and was a p/gp player.

Move him to the 4th line.

Don't reunite a line that was best defensive line we had until you try everything else.

Toffoli hasn't been a top 3 player in forever, if ever.

I like the player but don't expect him to carry the team in scoring.

Some reason we can't use Toffoli with Kadri and Ruzle?

Move Huberdeau to top line with Dube and Linholm.

You have two guys that can take strong side faceoffs.

Hubey has two target that can take a pass.

 

Anyway, moving on.  

We should get a win this week.

And a loss.

In fairness, I think Mangiapane's play handcuffed him. Ruzicka was a safe play at LW on the 3rd line, but Mangiapane couldn't elevate his play to be in the top 6. So he goes back to 3rd line, now you have a bunch of problems filling where you wanted Mangiapane to be. So you insert Rozie, sit Lucic and tell him you NEED him to eat hot dogs and watch the top 6 because you have a huge ask of him. And you start shuffling.

I can argue that a lot of this has to do with Mangiapane being unable to translate into a top 6 fwd. Pelletier likely would have a golden opportunity right now on Backlund's LW, but there's Manpony.

Now Pelletier has to wait, because we NEED him to be the top 6 fwd that Mangiapane can't be.

It's created a lot of problems.

You can't always point at the coach without pointing out the players.

I doubt any of us thought Mangiapane can't be a top 6 fwd coming in. Now we've seen he can't. That's at the base of all of this. We need a top 6 fwd, handedness doesn't matter, to atone for Mangiapane.

And I doubt any of us expected that. It's hard to fault Sutter when it's Mangiapane that created this mess. Our young guys are best served with Backlund-Coleman, but someone is stuck there.

I'd trade Mangiapane and next year's 2nd for an upgrade personally. Backlund's LW is easily filled.

Putting Lucic with our 2 massive fwd acquisitions just screams, "help".

 

[travel_dude]

12 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

In fairness, I think Mangiapane's play handcuffed him. Ruzicka was a safe play at LW on the 3rd line, but Mangiapane couldn't elevate his play to be in the top 6. So he goes back to 3rd line, now you have a bunch of problems filling where you wanted Mangiapane to be. So you insert Rozie, sit Lucic and tell him you NEED him to eat hot dogs and watch the top 6 because you have a huge ask of him. And you start shuffling.

I can argue that a lot of this has to do with Mangiapane being unable to translate into a top 6 fwd. Pelletier likely would have a golden opportunity right now on Backlund's LW, but there's Manpony.

Now Pelletier has to wait, because we NEED him to be the top 6 fwd that Mangiapane can't be.

It's created a lot of problems.

You can't always point at the coach without pointing out the players.

I doubt any of us thought Mangiapane can't be a top 6 fwd coming in. Now we've seen he can't. That's at the base of all of this. We need a top 6 fwd, handedness doesn't matter, to atone for Mangiapane.

And I doubt any of us expected that. It's hard to fault Sutter when it's Mangiapane that created this mess. Our young guys are best served with Backlund-Coleman, but someone is stuck there.

I'd trade Mangiapane and next year's 2nd for an upgrade personally. Backlund's LW is easily filled.

Putting Lucic with our 2 massive fwd acquisitions just screams, "help".

 

 

The difference is that Mange was top 6 with Backlund last year.

The reward Rozie gets for playing well on the top line is being moved down.

The reward Lucic gets for being tragically bad was to sit for a few and get top 6 ice.

Rosie has a lot to learn yet, but he's not a pylon out there.

 

If Lucic on the 2nd line screams help, Suts is not listening to himself.

There's no shame in trying out a player there.

If it doesn;t work, both the coach and player know what's missing.

It might be a simple adjustment or maybe requires AHL again.

It might be a signal to the GM that we need a NHL ready body.

 

I can't for the life of me figure out who is playing bad.

Some nights I focus on Lucic, because he sticks out like a sore thumb.

Hubey plays poorly in some of those games, but is it the player or the linemate.

Some nights I see the top line failing to do anything.

They need to score at least a goal per game to have any chance to win.

They do good things, but the puck misses players or the rush falls apart.

3rd and 4th lines have their bad nights, but usually don't get scored on.

Coleman can be really off, but the other two carry him those games.

Same with Mange.

Rosie has some plays where he gets taken down too easily.

And Lewis gts weak shot and good finishes.

 

The reason I hold it to the coach is that I think I see the frustration with the style.

It doesn't work against every team.

Maybe that's why we see the play change in games.

 

 

[sak22]

11 hours ago, The_People1 said:

Sutter drafted Dion Phaneuf and watched the kid decay before his eyes because he entered the NHL too young and got fame too early.

 

 

10 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

No I meant like, going to clubs after the game and on the weekends during the season and stuff.  

I feel maybe Sutter's attitude shifted towards young players because of Phaneuf, it was all love between Sutter towards Dion starting with a big hug on draft day and there was next to no criticism from that day till the day he was surprisingly traded away.  That said, going to clubs isn't something that is a Dion specific thing, if you think his off ice antics were bad I think they are very par for the course compared to others on the team or others around the league.  I think his treatment early on was a pretty big culprit to his downfall, the dude was put on a pedestal by 2 hard Hash Rate coaches, the other defensemen hated him.  Also the outside noise from media and fans put expectations in the wrong area, after his rookie year the talk wasn't when he was winning a Norris but how many, we put him in the Hall after year one reality was he wasn't that guy, he wasn't even a high end offensive producer in junior until his final junior year which he wouldn't have played had it not been a lockout.  The guys had a good career over 1000 games and near 500 points, the next Bobby Orr was an unfair expectation for him.

[tmac70]

This Pelts thing and prospect thing is like listening to parents in the stands, Play my child more. Some one explain to me what absolute intangible this kid brings that makes a instant winning result to a game? IF and its a big IF he gets in he won't standout and he won't have any more impact than a cuurent roster guy.  It will be just another version of vanilla ice cream on a short cone. Everyone will whine it was only one game needs more time, you can never win.  DS right, we are not way ahead in the standings and not way behind. I am hoping for the kid, but have to side with DS on this. You to go to war with proven warriors, if he was a specilaist in scoring like Caufield and Suzuki, is what we need he woukd have a shot. Phillips was did him havea huge impact in tthe game so much we couldn't live without him, Nope. If you look at Duehr and Zoh their first 2 games highly impactful, next games the luster was gone. Sutter wants that kind of emotion and energy every night, IMHO if Duehr is not impactful tonight, his time will be done as well. Most on the cusp guys need to play like its their last game because on Satoshi Nakamototer night and your done.

[redfire11]

Love the Flames but Damn with Colorado getting healthy and starting to get their game back; It's going to be a long 60 minutes tonight.

[travel_dude]

Same lines and pairings tonight.

Same goalie.

[sak22]

58 minutes ago, redfire11 said:

Love the Flames but Damn with Colorado getting healthy and starting to get their game back; It's going to be a long 60 minutes tonight.

 

A small bonus

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, sak22 said:

 

A small bonus

 

Nichushkin is back now and scoring a plenty.

He feasts on our goalies.

[taz89]

29 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Same lines and pairings tonight.

Same goalie.

to me that is ridiculous - i guess he is looking for the same result = loss.

[CheersMan]

32 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Same lines and pairings tonight.

Same goalie.

 

Cheer up Dude. When Darryl is gone you can apply for the job. 😀

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

 

Cheer up Dude. When Darryl is gone you can apply for the job. 😀

 

This thread is about lineups and I was posting them, plus the starter.

Wasn't an editorial comment.

Was exactly what he said it would be.

[sak22]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Nichushkin is back now and scoring a plenty.

He feasts on our goalies.

[flames for life]

9 hours ago, conundrumed said:

In fairness, I think Mangiapane's play handcuffed him. Ruzicka was a safe play at LW on the 3rd line, but Mangiapane couldn't elevate his play to be in the top 6. So he goes back to 3rd line, now you have a bunch of problems filling where you wanted Mangiapane to be. So you insert Rozie, sit Lucic and tell him you NEED him to eat hot dogs and watch the top 6 because you have a huge ask of him. And you start shuffling.

I can argue that a lot of this has to do with Mangiapane being unable to translate into a top 6 fwd. Pelletier likely would have a golden opportunity right now on Backlund's LW, but there's Manpony.

Now Pelletier has to wait, because we NEED him to be the top 6 fwd that Mangiapane can't be.

It's created a lot of problems.

You can't always point at the coach without pointing out the players.

I doubt any of us thought Mangiapane can't be a top 6 fwd coming in. Now we've seen he can't. That's at the base of all of this. We need a top 6 fwd, handedness doesn't matter, to atone for Mangiapane.

And I doubt any of us expected that. It's hard to fault Sutter when it's Mangiapane that created this mess. Our young guys are best served with Backlund-Coleman, but someone is stuck there.

I'd trade Mangiapane and next year's 2nd for an upgrade personally. Backlund's LW is easily filled.

Putting Lucic with our 2 massive fwd acquisitions just screams, "help".

 

I disagree with your statement that Mangepane can’t be a top six forward.  I think that he was misused during the first quarter by being bounced around from position to position and expected to do what he does best, and it showed.

once he reconnected with Backlund, it allowed him to plant in the hard areas and get fed by Backs.  He wasn’t expected to set up plays, but to finish them, which is more his forte.  His possession numbers have improved and high danger shots as well.

I think he will soon have a big game and open up a streak.  He is too good and tenacious to lay down and die.

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

I was in line at a coffee shop in Chicago one summer day. Turn around and it's Debbie herself, Rachel Dratch behind me. She's a nice woman. I don't get starry-eyed. We exchanged niceties and I bought her ice coffee. I got mine with 2 extra espresso shots as usual, she informed me they come with 2 already. I said, "that explains a few things".lol

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

 

Tells you how much I also respect the player and wanted us to sign him.

The other guy in that feasting territory is Little Joe.

[robrob74]

18 hours ago, tmac70 said:

This Pelts thing and prospect thing is like listening to parents in the stands, Play my child more. Some one explain to me what absolute intangible this kid brings that makes a instant winning result to a game? IF and its a big IF he gets in he won't standout and he won't have any more impact than a cuurent roster guy.  It will be just another version of vanilla ice cream on a short cone. Everyone will whine it was only one game needs more time, you can never win.  DS right, we are not way ahead in the standings and not way behind. I am hoping for the kid, but have to side with DS on this. You to go to war with proven warriors, if he was a specilaist in scoring like Caufield and Suzuki, is what we need he woukd have a shot. Phillips was did him havea huge impact in tthe game so much we couldn't live without him, Nope. If you look at Duehr and Zoh their first 2 games highly impactful, next games the luster was gone. Sutter wants that kind of emotion and energy every night, IMHO if Duehr is not impactful tonight, his time will be done as well. Most on the cusp guys need to play like its their last game because on Satoshi Nakamototer night and your done.

maybe not Pelts, maybe not Phillips, but what the fans see is a team that lacks consistency and that seems to be due to accountability. The fact no one really has a consequence due to poor effort is really what they mean. It isn't about who, it's about infusing youthful energy. It's about Sutter being hypocritical in the way he is coaching. 
 

we are playing teams with 8 guys out, 6 guys out and getting outplayed by AHLers