Darryl Sutter new head coach

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, tmac70 said:

The other factors that we seem to forget to be successful is 

 

1) You need 1-3 game changers, we have NONE on the roster and NONE in the system

2) Average to slightly above average goaltending, has not happened when we needed it

3) Depth Scoring, have had NONE for over 10 years

4) You need a 1 stud dman and a good supporting cast, We have no stud DMan and None in the system. 

 

So until those boxes are checked your just going to tread water constantly. 

 

We have 2 game changers.  Playing on different lines.

One had the most assists in a season ever.

And 35 goals to boot.

Different system.

 

We had average goaltending last season, but the usage and success have not followed.

Vladar was on a huge run and got sat.  Just because.  When he made it back he was cold.

 

We had depth scoring last year, but has not followed.

Most 40+ goal scorers in the league.

Previous years we had highs for numbers of 20+ goal scorers.

 

What defines a stud D man.  Points?  

Andersson tied with Hedman, but well below Karlsson.

Which is the stud?

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, tmac70 said:

What needs to change is some players' attitudes as well as the thought process of the coaching staff. Can old dogs learn new tricks sure if they feel or see the need to change? Like I said before multiple times, Sutter has warts as do we all, but we can all change if there is a need desire, and factors to change. Today's players are not pushable the way they use to be, which means Sutter needs to change his teaching methods but also the players need to be better it works both ways.  I still believe there is nothing wrong with the systems it's an execution problem on both sides.  IMHO you have the wrong players to create the results and the wrong method to voice it. 

 

Players accept things up to a point.  Success drives it home.

If we were just a team that scored but had bad goaltending, then we probably just see frustration.

Or a low scoring team with good goaltending.

We are neither, so I'm not sure how much the tired plan is being accepted.

Last year, the thing holding us back was goaltending, but not always.

Some game no scoring.

 

Maybe you are right, I just don't see it.

Something is clearly not working and it's not just one line or two/three new players.

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, tmac70 said:

The other factors that we seem to forget to be successful is 

 

1) You need 1-3 game changers, we have NONE on the roster and NONE in the system

2) Average to slightly above average goaltending, has not happened when we needed it

3) Depth Scoring, have had NONE for over 10 years

4) You need a 1 stud dman and a good supporting cast, We have no stud DMan and None in the system. 

 

So until those boxes are checked your just going to tread water constantly. 

 

don't worry, if this keeps up we will have them in the system soon.

 

but your list 1 straight through 4 looks to me like it belongs in the BT thread and not the coaching thread.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

don't worry, if this keeps up we will have them in the system soon.

 

but your list 1 straight through 4 looks to me like it belongs in the BT thread and not the coaching thread.

 

For those that blame BT for this mess, use the BT thread.

For those that blame the Lines, use the lineup thread.

For those that blame the goalie, use the Goaltending thread.

For those that blame the coach, feel free to use any thread; lineup, goaltending, Sutter Coaching threads.

For those that blame the prospects, use the coaching thread.

 

LOL

[robrob74]

12 hours ago, tmac70 said:

Sutter has warts as does every coach.  Rumors are Sutter has ruffled a lot of feathers in the front office. What makes things complicated is when your employee has more power than the supposed person in charge Trevling. This is why I have said there is a dynamic shift right now, the tail can't wag the dog. If there is a power struggle or attitude struggle between upper management owners and coaches, in all terms of hierarchy Sutter should be removed based on non-compliance. If the owners are making the call and are on Sutters' side then Trevling is irrelevant.  The worst-case scenario is that the owners bring in a GM that is a puppet to Sutter then this organization, development, and draft choices will regress 5-7 years just to bring in players for the win-now attitude. Lombardi would probably be in line for the job, terrible idea. Although he brought a cups to LA it put that organization back years, which Sutter alluded to as a normal trend up then down to do so. 

 

 

I read somewhere that Sutter was given a contract extension prior to the season and didn't accept it. Maybe wasn't planning on coming back? Maybe was holding out for more? Or maybe just fed up...

[travel_dude]

33 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I read somewhere that Sutter was given a contract extension prior to the season and didn't accept it. Maybe wasn't planning on coming back? Maybe was holding out for more? Or maybe just fed up...

 

You mean BT, right?

[robrob74]

9 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

You mean BT, right?

yup!!! Sorry 

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

You mean BT, right?

 

I did not know that.   Surprised.

[robrob74]

14 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

You mean BT, right?

I was on 3 hours of sleep for two nights in a row. I meant that BT was given an offer but didn't sign it. I think he is walking as maybe either isn't enough or doesn't get enough autonomy to do what he needs to. 
 

it sounded like over the years a few deals get close to being made only to not get done. Zucker... etc. I don't know if that's because owners didn't want it... but there's a lot that we don't know.

[travel_dude]

19 hours ago, robrob74 said:

I was on 3 hours of sleep for two nights in a row. I meant that BT was given an offer but didn't sign it. I think he is walking as maybe either isn't enough or doesn't get enough autonomy to do what he needs to. 
 

it sounded like over the years a few deals get close to being made only to not get done. Zucker... etc. I don't know if that's because owners didn't want it... but there's a lot that we don't know.

 

I had read about the same thing but was too lazy to go look.  I figured you had the deets but just mixed up the name.  I think BT is thinking long game.  I think he had some question in the summer that some of the decisions being made in other parts of the org would hurt the team.  Yes, he was the GM, but wasn't calling all the shots.  I don't think he ever wanted to waive Valimaki.  And I think he would have preferred not to waive Meloche, seeing as he just signed him.  The same is true to releasing Milano.  There was no obvious choice for top 6 winger, and Sutter is making it impossible to find one.  I don't think Milano was either the solution or had that great a camp, but hard to tell when you are more critical of him than a useless vet.

[cross16]

I'm not familiar with any rumor that said he didn't want to sign. I know his last comments on the deal were they were working through it and see where it lands. 

 

I do think that him choosing to leave is more likely than him being let go. Can't fault him if you like but I think the reality is his stock is very high right now so he's got a bunch of leverage in his negotiations with the Flames. 

[cross16]

Kadri hasn't been great so this isn't a good look for either side. 

 

But the question starts to get louder that in the mix of a brutal season how much more of this can you tolerate before the organization starts to wonder about Sutter? Kadri is not the first player to openly question the communication.

 

I don't put the results of this season on Sutter that much but at the same time there is a ton of negativity around this team that seems to stem from the coach. When the likely game plan is to run it back next year can that continue (it can't iMO) then what can you do to change it?

 

And how does this impact a MAJOR UFA negotiation in Lindholm that should be taking place this off season. 

 

 

[travel_dude]

33 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Kadri hasn't been great so this isn't a good look for either side. 

 

But the question starts to get louder that in the mix of a brutal season how much more of this can you tolerate before the organization starts to wonder about Sutter? Kadri is not the first player to openly question the communication.

 

I don't put the results of this season on Sutter that much but at the same time there is a ton of negativity around this team that seems to stem from the coach. When the likely game plan is to run it back next year can that continue (it can't iMO) then what can you do to change it?

 

And how does this impact a MAJOR UFA negotiation in Lindholm that should be taking place this off season. 

 

 

 

You can kinda pin the loss on breakdowns and poor goaltending, for this one game.

The players understand that you may get the bench (or popcorn) if you make a mistake.

That's probably fine and maybe justified.

Accountability one game and not in others.

Kadri made a costly turnover Saturday, so yeah I can see him losing minutes.

But he was also called out in the presser.

 

This team is too expensive to just roll it out next season.

Considering the poor overall performance this year, something major needs to happen.

Blames the GM if you like (not you Cross), but the coach is supposed to work with what he has.

He had lots to work with and anything he needed would be provided.

There is no success story this year.

This is firing offense territory.

Doesn't matter if some of the players were not showing up 100%.

Maybe the bigger question is why not?

[conundrumed]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

Kadri hasn't been great so this isn't a good look for either side. 

 

But the question starts to get louder that in the mix of a brutal season how much more of this can you tolerate before the organization starts to wonder about Sutter? Kadri is not the first player to openly question the communication.

 

I don't put the results of this season on Sutter that much but at the same time there is a ton of negativity around this team that seems to stem from the coach. When the likely game plan is to run it back next year can that continue (it can't iMO) then what can you do to change it?

 

And how does this impact a MAJOR UFA negotiation in Lindholm that should be taking place this off season. 

 

Lindholm's a big one. I don't want it moving into the season one way or the other. Once bitten twice shy. He would garner a good haul if it came down to it.

We're going to be pretty cash-strapped heading into next season. It'll be an offseason of decisions alright.

As for Kadri, it's unfortunate that this is the typical script when the expectations hit the cold reality.

Like you said, can't even decide on lines. For me, there is too much dead weight/same old-same old on the roster.

It's just not a "hard work wins" league anymore. Every team works hard, nobody's outworking anybody, every player needs a good skillset. Grunts won't get it done.

[travel_dude]

15 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Lindholm's a big one. I don't want it moving into the season one way or the other. Once bitten twice shy. He would garner a good haul if it came down to it.

We're going to be pretty cash-strapped heading into next season. It'll be an offseason of decisions alright.

As for Kadri, it's unfortunate that this is the typical script when the expectations hit the cold reality.

Like you said, can't even decide on lines. For me, there is too much dead weight/same old-same old on the roster.

It's just not a "hard work wins" league anymore. Every team works hard, nobody's outworking anybody, every player needs a good skillset. Grunts won't get it done.

 

What I take from this leads into trade discussions, so excuse me while I respond that way.

My list of players going into next season is not 100% based on what we need to compete.  I think that's not the right way to build from a losing season.  You have to be surgical and strategic.  Take emotion out of it.  Save that for when we are sending off the player or their return on another team.   

 

Keeper list:

Huberdeau - with the right players and time, he could be what he was in FLA

Kadri - gotta figure out long term where he fits, since trading him this soon is crazy

Ras - only reason to trade him is because you get crazy offer including a stud D

Weegar - he looks now what I expected him to be

Lindholm - depends on expectations for his new deal, but we have no other #1C waiting to play

Dube - hard to match the work ethic and beard; only consider a crazy offer

Toffoli - keep him but if we are out by TDL, consider the return seriously

Kylington - one year, too soon to cut bait

 

Trader list:

Backlund - some nights I watch Backlund and think he's part of the solution, then other times he's part of the problem.  Would tend to trade him because he may still have reasonable value out there.  Unless he's willing to take a haircut, we really can't afford a new deal.

Tanev - relative health may have impacted him, but has not looked as good.  Maybe Kylington was the reason why they worked last year.  Or maybe that's the only way the two look good, in which case it's a tough choice.  Salary not killing us, but the injury time at key moments does.

Hanifin - just time to move on.  Don't hate the player.  I just don't see him any more than a #4F.  Too many swings in his game.  Not a guy you count on every game.

Markstrom or Wolf - one goalie on a bad season is enough.  I don't know that we can count on Marky for a full season anymore.  Then again, not sure if Vladar can handle 40 starts.  Age wise, I would lean towards keeping him.  A lot of this depends on Wolf being NHL ready.  Gosh, if only they could call him up to play some NHL games.  A real shame there is no method of doing that.  SMH.

Mangiapane - not built for the type of game he tries to play.  His numbers have declined, but I don't know where he really fits now.  Could be better on other lines, but again he is less rugged than Dube and more of a pest.

Coleman - he's the kind of player you get when you are a contender, not building to be one in the future.  The salary/term is the killer though. 

 

Undecided list:

So, some things depend on what we are building.  

Zadorov - he's looked good.  Don't know what we are building, but he's a decent skater.  Average defensive instincts at times, but sometimes it feels he's trying to inject passion into the team.

 

Might nee to revise the list a bit, but we need to remove some lower IQ or lower skating abilities.

 

[redfire11]

You replace Sutter now I think we have a good chance to make the playoffs with a new coach but a poor chance to go past the first round.

Keep Sutter we have a poor chance to make the playoffs but a good chance to go beyond the first playoff round.

JMO

[conundrumed]

17 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

What I take from this leads into trade discussions, so excuse me while I respond that way.

My list of players going into next season is not 100% based on what we need to compete.  I think that's not the right way to build from a losing season.  You have to be surgical and strategic.  Take emotion out of it.  Save that for when we are sending off the player or their return on another team.   

 

Keeper list:

Huberdeau - with the right players and time, he could be what he was in FLA

Kadri - gotta figure out long term where he fits, since trading him this soon is crazy

Ras - only reason to trade him is because you get crazy offer including a stud D

Weegar - he looks now what I expected him to be

Lindholm - depends on expectations for his new deal, but we have no other #1C waiting to play

Dube - hard to match the work ethic and beard; only consider a crazy offer

Toffoli - keep him but if we are out by TDL, consider the return seriously

Kylington - one year, too soon to cut bait

 

Trader list:

Backlund - some nights I watch Backlund and think he's part of the solution, then other times he's part of the problem.  Would tend to trade him because he may still have reasonable value out there.  Unless he's willing to take a haircut, we really can't afford a new deal.

Tanev - relative health may have impacted him, but has not looked as good.  Maybe Kylington was the reason why they worked last year.  Or maybe that's the only way the two look good, in which case it's a tough choice.  Salary not killing us, but the injury time at key moments does.

Hanifin - just time to move on.  Don't hate the player.  I just don't see him any more than a #4F.  Too many swings in his game.  Not a guy you count on every game.

Markstrom or Wolf - one goalie on a bad season is enough.  I don't know that we can count on Marky for a full season anymore.  Then again, not sure if Vladar can handle 40 starts.  Age wise, I would lean towards keeping him.  A lot of this depends on Wolf being NHL ready.  Gosh, if only they could call him up to play some NHL games.  A real shame there is no method of doing that.  SMH.

Mangiapane - not built for the type of game he tries to play.  His numbers have declined, but I don't know where he really fits now.  Could be better on other lines, but again he is less rugged than Dube and more of a pest.

Coleman - he's the kind of player you get when you are a contender, not building to be one in the future.  The salary/term is the killer though. 

 

Undecided list:

So, some things depend on what we are building.  

Zadorov - he's looked good.  Don't know what we are building, but he's a decent skater.  Average defensive instincts at times, but sometimes it feels he's trying to inject passion into the team.

 

Might nee to revise the list a bit, but we need to remove some lower IQ or lower skating abilities.

 

I avoided that but my list is similar. When I look at scoring, I see 2 fwds with lethal shots, Lindholm and Toffoli. Everyone else is startling me and have all year. Not having a great shot like those 2 can be overcome. Get it off quickly. It seems like EVERYBODY has to stop the puck to shoot it. You have milliseconds to score but you're taking seconds and your shot isn't good enough to do that. So you have high volume, call it high danger, but it has to get off of your stick right now. It makes my eyes bleed watching these chances but stopping the puck for a second. This isn't jr, you have zero time. But they do it constantly from Kadri, Mangiapane, Coleman, Backlund. Release isn't just being tricky, it's being fast. It touches your stick it's gone. That's your scoring chance. Stop it, pull it back for power, chance gone. It's constant. Where's the shooting coach?

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, redfire11 said:

You replace Sutter now I think we have a good chance to make the playoffs with a new coach but a poor chance to go past the first round.

Keep Sutter we have a poor chance to make the playoffs but a good chance to go beyond the first playoff round.

JMO

No 3rd option?lol

You're no fun anymore.

[cross16]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Lindholm's a big one. I don't want it moving into the season one way or the other. Once bitten twice shy. He would garner a good haul if it came down to it.

We're going to be pretty cash-strapped heading into next season. It'll be an offseason of decisions alright.

As for Kadri, it's unfortunate that this is the typical script when the expectations hit the cold reality.

Like you said, can't even decide on lines. For me, there is too much dead weight/same old-same old on the roster.

It's just not a "hard work wins" league anymore. Every team works hard, nobody's outworking anybody, every player needs a good skillset. Grunts won't get it done.

 

Key to their whole plan moving forward. If they can't keep him then past next off season they have the following centers under contract:

Kadri

Zary

 

Ruzicka's an rFA and Backs will be 35. 

 

That's lottery/rebuild territory. 

[conundrumed]

5 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Key to their whole plan moving forward. If they can't keep him then past next off season they have the following centers under contract:

Kadri

Zary

 

Ruzicka's an rFA and Backs will be 35. 

 

That's lottery/rebuild territory. 

From rich to poor in a hurry. Moves would have to involve a younger pro C. Hopefully Kerins and Ronni can take some great development steps next year to breath into the prospect pool.

We're definitely hanging in the balance of a tumultuous future. Even the cap for next year looks sketch and I hope beyond hope we stop the grizzled vets 4th line route. It's been of little value this year. No more Ritchie's. Jeez, I didn't want the first one.

[travel_dude]

29 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Key to their whole plan moving forward. If they can't keep him then past next off season they have the following centers under contract:

Kadri

Zary

 

Ruzicka's an rFA and Backs will be 35. 

 

That's lottery/rebuild territory. 

 

Well that's part of the problem for right now too.  No real depth at C.

I hate having to look at UFA's for it, but unless we are willing to trade 1st rounders or valuable D-men or overpay in FA, there's not a lot of choices moving forward. Maybe an OS which has long term issues to the signing team.  Besides, I'm not sure we have the picks to be able to do an OS that a team just wouldn't match.  

 

I think this was a wasted year.  Should have gone full time with Ruzicka.  It's not like we were losing because he was in the lineup.  Really needed to see if he was long term a top 6 player, and a C at that.  There was zero chance for him to be a top 9C this year.  Even when things were not going right, the idea of moving Backs or Kadri to 4C was a no-no.  What's the point when you have Ritchie's, Lewis' and Lucic's in the lineup.  

 

I think it's key to re-sign Lindholm.  Might have to deal with the cap at a later point, but he needs to be signed.  

[travel_dude]

41 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I avoided that but my list is similar. When I look at scoring, I see 2 fwds with lethal shots, Lindholm and Toffoli. Everyone else is startling me and have all year. Not having a great shot like those 2 can be overcome. Get it off quickly. It seems like EVERYBODY has to stop the puck to shoot it. You have milliseconds to score but you're taking seconds and your shot isn't good enough to do that. So you have high volume, call it high danger, but it has to get off of your stick right now. It makes my eyes bleed watching these chances but stopping the puck for a second. This isn't jr, you have zero time. But they do it constantly from Kadri, Mangiapane, Coleman, Backlund. Release isn't just being tricky, it's being fast. It touches your stick it's gone. That's your scoring chance. Stop it, pull it back for power, chance gone. It's constant. Where's the shooting coach?

 

We are stuck with Kadri.  It's the way it is.  Perhaps under another coach or style, he looks more like his career year. 

Regarding shots, I think we have a select few that can fire a shot in one motion, but that list is small.  Do that all the time is an even smaller list.  I do think that some of it comes from sub-par passing, but another reason is a sign that a team doesn't have confidence.  Mangiapane used to be lethal, but is double clutching almost every time.  When he does get the shot, it's in the breadbasket.  

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

From rich to poor in a hurry. Moves would have to involve a younger pro C. Hopefully Kerins and Ronni can take some great development steps next year to breath into the prospect pool.

We're definitely hanging in the balance of a tumultuous future. Even the cap for next year looks sketch and I hope beyond hope we stop the grizzled vets 4th line route. It's been of little value this year. No more Ritchie's. Jeez, I didn't want the first one.

 

Nah.  If Lindholm doesn't extend long term, then you already know what we're going to do.

 

We will trade him for a 31 year old superstar Center who will and give him 8-years.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Key to their whole plan moving forward. If they can't keep him then past next off season they have the following centers under contract:

Kadri

Zary

 

Ruzicka's an rFA and Backs will be 35. 

 

That's lottery/rebuild territory. 

 

Lindholm is priority #1 absolutely.  And it has to be done early so there's time the rest of the summer to fix the rest of the roster... or to do a complete tear down.  Worst case is the Flames and Lindholm drag this out until training camp and there's no time to pivot to other options.

[The_People1]

5 hours ago, cross16 said:

Kadri hasn't been great so this isn't a good look for either side. 

 

But the question starts to get louder that in the mix of a brutal season how much more of this can you tolerate before the organization starts to wonder about Sutter? Kadri is not the first player to openly question the communication.

 

I don't put the results of this season on Sutter that much but at the same time there is a ton of negativity around this team that seems to stem from the coach. When the likely game plan is to run it back next year can that continue (it can't iMO) then what can you do to change it?

 

And how does this impact a MAJOR UFA negotiation in Lindholm that should be taking place this off season. 

 

 

 

I mean, how do we go from Coach of The Year to multiple players coming out and showing frustration at the coach?  And yet the one person with near pure immunity in the organization is Sutter himself because he was hand picked by the owners.  What a mess.

 

Kadri is signed for 7 years.  Unless Sutter is pushing his buttons to waive his NMC... I mean, Kadri needs to be made a special player inside the inner circle and leadership group.  He's going to be here for a very long time.