Motivation and Work Ethic

[conundrumed]

I know it's early and it's camp hockey for the 1st 10-15 games.

That we spend to the Cap is great, but why can we still not play a 60 minute game? And starting some games just looking nervous and intimidated.

As Peters called them out for work ethic after last night, I'd throw in motivation as well.

Near every game has looked like we have about 10 passengers.

Can we just bench some bodies now and tell them to watch from above until they figure out how to bring emotion and intensity?

I know the night is young, but how do fans get excited when most players don't seem to be? This team seems to get deflated so quickly.

This modern era of having to be nice to everyone lest their feelings get hurt is annoying. Should be written into these million dollar contracts. "Aaaand we're allowed to treat you any Blockchaining way we please". Humiliation is a powerful motivator. lol

 

[travel_dude]

The annoying thing about our payroll structure is that we can't change the team enough right now to make a difference.

The players looking like passengers are waiver eligible.

And we can't afford to have a 14th F on the roster.

 

We sent down guys like Dube, Gawdin, Quine, Phillips, Davidson.

We kept up guys like Czarnik, Janko, Bennett, Frolik and Stone.

 

Don't get me wrong.  Not all of those guys have been lazy or unmotivated.

Janko is playing like a child who had his toys taken away.

Stone is just aweful.

Czarnik played 3 minutes so far.

 

The top line and a few others are the only ones seeming like the season started.

Lucic has been Lucic.

Most of the bottom 6 and even Backlund have been bad for most of the games. 

The 3rd pairing is a mess without Ras.

 

The starts have been punctuated by bad calls.

Lazy or unfortunate or too aggressive.

Whatever.

It seems to throw the game plan out the window almost every time.

Screws up the lines during and after the PK.

Seems to make them take the foot off the gas.

 

I dunno.

We've had this happen before, just can;t figure out the reasons.

Doesn;t seem like the same team cpapble of winning 50 games.

[conundrumed]

Jankowski, in particular, is not a good C in the d zone. Move him to wing already. I don't hate him, but why play him at C? His d zone C play has never been good. Case in point, Benn's goal. Dude, that's Jamie Benn, that's your assignment. Let him get a step on you? All I can say is, "wake up".

[tmac70]

I have mentioned this numerous times as recently as last night. This club for years has no moxie and hatred. Outside of Gaudreau, Lindholm, GIo, Ritter, Hammer it's a crapshoot who shows up. For example Chuckys best game was against the Kings, Cause he hates Dough Head. I find in this NEW NHL boring lacking and physical intensity and hatred. Funny best game last year was the 1st one against the coilers, everyone loved that kind of hockey but yet its not encouraged for style. IMHO you have a roster of players that do not have a hatred of losing. I love the drive and emotion of JH as he may be small but is competitive. We have to many that have been either watered down by systems/ teaching or just lack  that competitive spirit. So your constantly line juggling to find a spark, how many times have we heard that. THis team needs anyone to drag them in to battle, Chucky was good at that, maybe fat wallets lead to piss poor work ethic. 

[Carty]

For some players motivation and work ethic comes more naturally and is more consistent...   Some players have better leadership qualities than others,  and some players need that inspiration for motivation, and when they are motivated their work ethic improves...    

 

None of us know exactly what goes on in the dressing room, or what is said on the bench...   But it is during times like this when the Flames need that kind of leadership and inspiration from those that are supposed to be the leaders on the team...   Of course the coach has an good amount of responsibility for doing that, but on the best teams it also consistently comes from the players that are leaders on the team...   and that is done by setting an example on the ice, and guidance in the locker room and on the bench...   and we need both the players that wear a letter on their jersey, and others that have already earned that kind respect, to step up and lead the team...

[travel_dude]

Frolik has always been one of the guys that shows up the same, game in, game out.

Yet he is a victim to sub-par play from Backlund and Tkachuk.

HIs agent may call out the coach, but Frolik is the consumate pro.

He may not like his ice time or usage, but he doesn't pout about it.

 

Janko and Bennett look frustrated.  And their play is suffering from it.

Giving up on a play, pushing too hard in the wrong way, negative impact.

 

On the other hand, we have Lucic playing 13 minutes per night and PP time.

I get the why, but lets not try to force him into a role he isn't suited.

 

[Thebrewcrew]

What I've seen through 5 games is a team that ASSUMES they are good enough to be a playoff team without bringing the work boots. You know the saying about ASSUME, it makes a you know what out of you and me...

 

Flames had a great regular season last year, but won't surprise anyone this year. This league is also so tightly contested that you can't afford ti bring subpar efforts very often, points are too valuable, make teams beat you by them playing well not from a weak Flames effort. 

 

Hate to say it but the Oilers are a good example, their underlying numbers and weak competition will catchup to them, but they are winning games, working hard and have a real nice start under their belts

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

What I've seen through 5 games is a team that ASSUMES they are good enough to be a playoff team without bringing the work boots. You know the saying about ASSUME, it makes a you know what out of you and me...

 

Flames had a great regular season last year, but won't surprise anyone this year. This league is also so tightly contested that you can't afford ti bring subpar efforts very often, points are too valuable, make teams beat you by them playing well not from a weak Flames effort. 

 

Hate to say it but the Oilers are a good example, their underlying numbers and weak competition will catchup to them, but they are winning games, working hard and have a real nice start under their belts

I didn't say this in the OP, but dammit, I was thinking it.

Stop pretending that you just have to step onto the ice, it's not gonna work out.

I said as much in Carty's game thread yesterday, everyone better put on their workboots, because this is a hard test. 6-2 Vegas. So. When are these workboots gonna show up?

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

Maybe losing a heavily skewed game like last night will help, or maybe they need a worse drubbing. They have shown that they can play the right game (0-3, 0-2 recoveries) just gotta figure out how to start a game with the same intensity. As the season goes on the whole "comeback kids" isn't a very good formula to rely on. I think the issues with the bottom 6-12 could be addressed with some line up changes. As I've always felt the shutdown line should't also be #2 scoring line.

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

What I've seen through 5 games is a team that ASSUMES they are good enough to be a playoff team without bringing the work boots. You know the saying about ASSUME, it makes a you know what out of you and me...

 

Flames had a great regular season last year, but won't surprise anyone this year. This league is also so tightly contested that you can't afford ti bring subpar efforts very often, points are too valuable, make teams beat you by them playing well not from a weak Flames effort. 

 

Hate to say it but the Oilers are a good example, their underlying numbers and weak competition will catchup to them, but they are winning games, working hard and have a real nice start under their belts

 

The funny thing is that we have played lousy hockey for 5 games and we still have a 2-2-1 record.

500 hockey with the shambles we have seen so far.

The good thing is that the team can get a lot better.

 

With all the road games so far, the 2nd line is playing the most.

And it's not been that great.

Tkachuk and Backlund have looked good for no more than one or two games.

Frolik takes the heat for the play and gets demoted.

Mangiapane has a couple of bad shifts and gets the hook.

Below that, there is almost nothing.

Ryan winning faceoffs.

Rieder used on the PK. 

 

So what do you do when your shutdown line isn't working?

Or your top line only manages 1 or 2 goals.

 

Unfortunately, a trade is necessary just to free up some cap space.

We can't even call up Gawdin or Dube or Phillips for a spark.

Short of waiving Stone, Czarnik and Janko, we have little options.

And I'm not even suggesting that Czarnik is a problem.

Dude has 3 minutes of play this season.

 

[The_People1]

This is a team that's spent less money on the top end and more money on depth.  And now that depth is not good enough...

[travel_dude]

Just now, The_People1 said:

This is a team that's spent less money on the top end and more money on depth.  And now that depth is not good enough...

 

Frolik, Bennett, Janko, Lucic, and Ryan account for $17m.

We didn't lose depth by trading for Lucic.

 

[conundrumed]

Ryan needs to be a leader. imo.

He's looked below average. But again, this is sloggy camp hockey. Just snap out of it at .500 after 12 games is my hope.

[robrob74]

56 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Frolik has always been one of the guys that shows up the same, game in, game out.

Yet he is a victim to sub-par play from Backlund and Tkachuk.

HIs agent may call out the coach, but Frolik is the consumate pro.

He may not like his ice time or usage, but he doesn't pout about it.

 

Janko and Bennett look frustrated.  And their play is suffering from it.

Giving up on a play, pushing too hard in the wrong way, negative impact.

 

On the other hand, we have Lucic playing 13 minutes per night and PP time.

I get the why, but lets not try to force him into a role he isn't suited.

 

 

 

And that is kind of my problem with the coach. He had a good read on the pace last year but still had favorited players regardless of what they did. When it backfires it can turn most of the team off. 

 

It must suck when it you get a few shifts here and there. Bennett has sucked but even when he is the hardest working Flame he still only gets minimal minutes. 

 

So i probably have a problem with every coach then...

 

i also think hes not utilizing the depth preperly. We have limitations (RW), I get it. But

maybe my idea of spreading Lindholm to another line weakens the team? 

 

I think the team team scored the same, but it gives more threat throughout the lineup.

 

Gaudreau can get 1-3 points a game without Lindholm, but Lindholm can still get .5-.7 points per game with another line, and helping others get points. 

I think he’s sacrificing offence elsewhere for one big line.

[travel_dude]

14 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

And that is kind of my problem with the coach. He had a good read on the pace last year but still had favorited players regardless of what they did. When it backfires it can turn most of the team off. 

 

It must suck when it you get a few shifts here and there. Bennett has sucked but even when he is the hardest working Flame he still only gets minimal minutes. 

 

So i probably have a problem with every coach then...

 

i also think hes not utilizing the depth preperly. We have limitations (RW), I get it. But

maybe my idea of spreading Lindholm to another line weakens the team? 

 

I think the team team scored the same, but it gives more threat throughout the lineup.

 

Gaudreau can get 1-3 points a game without Lindholm, but Lindholm can still get .5-.7 points per game with another line, and helping others get points. 

I think he’s sacrificing offence elsewhere for one big line.

 

It's hard to say what the long term approach will be.

Right now, he's got one line that plays consistent.

Do you break that up to POSSIBLY get another line going?

 

Long term that might work.

It's pretty hard to coach a team out of the gutter.

Watering down one line may not even help right now.

 

The way I see it is that one line is working and the others are coasting.

How to fix that is the $81m question.

You have offered suggestion, as have others, but the team has to take control of the results.

Leadership needs to step up and demand better.

 

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

It's hard to say what the long term approach will be.

Right now, he's got one line that plays consistent.

Do you break that up to POSSIBLY get another line going?

 

Long term that might work.

It's pretty hard to coach a team out of the gutter.

Watering down one line may not even help right now.

 

The way I see it is that one line is working and the others are coasting.

How to fix that is the $81m question.

You have offered suggestion, as have others, but the team has to take control of the results.

Leadership needs to step up and demand better.

 

 

 

Ya, but come playoff time he had to break them up because it became too easy to stop the Flames, so I think you gotta be able to have different looks. And that might not even relate to just lines, but also the kinds of plays BP uses. What adjustments can he make other than just playing those that are skating or moving a few players around that aren’t working and are a tire-fire. 

 

I guess thats also a GM problem. Has BtT given him enough to work with?

 

Lucic could be a tough one as when the play ramps up he might look even slower.

 

 

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

Ya, but come playoff time he had to break them up because it became too easy to stop the Flames, so I think you gotta be able to have different looks. And that might not even relate to just lines, but also the kinds of plays BP uses. What adjustments can he make other than just playing those that are skating or moving a few players around that aren’t working and are a tire-fire. 

 

I guess thats also a GM problem. Has BtT given him enough to work with?

 

Lucic could be a tough one as when the play ramps up he might look even slower.

 

 

 

I don;t think you should use the playoffs as the reason to change the lines.

There were many reason why we lost.

Shuttiing down one line was the least of them.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don;t think you should use the playoffs as the reason to change the lines.

There were many reason why we lost.

Shuttiing down one line was the least of them.

 

I don't think I am using just the playoffs though. Before and after the All Star Break last year, the Flames were a 1.5 line team. And when one line was going, the other line wasn't. And from the All Star Break on, the Gaudreau line provided spotty offence while the Ryan line carried the team. Backlund's line seems to be the other 0.5 as they are kind of off and on. 

 

I don't think this is just a playoff problem as it was what I was trying to say when the team was apparently playing great last year, that I saw the Gaudreau line carrying the load as a problem. But everyone thought I was complaining that the team was winning and that I didn't like that they were scoring so much. For me it had more to do with the way they were winning, and saw it as a longer term problem as it's not feasible that they carry all of the weight in points. 

 

We say, we have 5 with 70 points. Ok, but it's all coming from mostly one line (if you count Tkachuk's PP1 time to be on that line). 

The middle is a hot mess and I am trying to think of ways of spreading the talent enough so that it isn't too thin. I think by loading the top line that it does spread the talent thin on the rest of the lineup. We have the opportunity to create 3 very good pairs/possibly 4. I would prefer to see the team come offensively in waves than in one line.

 

I also think we are missing a Hathaway kind of guy that brings energy and shifts momentum. A Lucic fight can't do it every game, before it kind of gets old. 

[travel_dude]

Well we are missing a lot more than Hathaway right now.

Bennett, Janko, Lucic and Ryan taking up that much of the cap and contributing almost nothing.

I don't expect to see Lucic leading the team in points in any game, and he does offer some positives, but the others need to be accountable.

We want zero goals out of the bottom 6, we could dress the likes of Agostino or Shore for a lot less.

Maybe we could afford a top 6 RW or C. 

[robrob74]

Well, I just think sometimes motivation comes when a guy like Hathaway is busting his Hash Rate pretty much everyday. When guys do that, it sometimes becomes contagious. Then there is also some momentum shifts during the game. Getting that almost always happens from the bottom six. A hit, a hem in the zone and then resulting in a PP, or an in your face attitude that draws penalties. 

 

I think it is hard to find that top6 RW or C. I get you need to have the money to pay for them, but who is really giving those away? It's rare but done sometimes. 

[LouCifer]

Good topic Conundrumed. It’s evident we’re all seeing the same thing and, most concerning, how repetitive it is with this group.

 

I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not at my best 100% of the time when I go to work, but the business doesn’t go under because the rest of the “team” helps keep the business afloat. With the flames, so many are passengers game in and game out, or one shift on, three shifts off... the thinking late last season (winning games with minimal effort) that got them into trouble in the playoffs appears to have re-emerged to start this season. 

 

I’m no coach, but this is a group that is clearly externally motivated. It takes a drubbing or some external target to get them going. It’s not a terrible thing, but there are greater advantages (ie. consistency) for teams that are internally/self motivated (sharing a common goal, battling for each other, all for one and one for all). 

[rickross]

I’d like to think last seasons embarrassing playoff exit is the motivation for this year. I’d say it’s more a lack of intensity and execution that’s hampering the start to this season. It’s still early and there really was no reason for BT to blow this team up in the offseason. I think we’ll be fine if we can increase our intensity and quality of execution. If not then we are in for a long and painful year of regression and likely a new coach 

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, rickross said:

I’d like to think last seasons embarrassing playoff exit is the motivation for this year. 

 

Sadly, last seasons embarrassing playoff exit is motivation for this seasons playoffs.  This team is playing like they can't be motivated for a regular season game.  They are looking ahead... And risk not getting back to the playoffs at all.

[cross16]

7 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Sadly, last seasons embarrassing playoff exit is motivation for this seasons playoffs.  This team is playing like they can't be motivated for a regular season game.  They are looking ahead... And risk not getting back to the playoffs at all.

agreed. Honestly I am not surprised they have started slow I was expecting it. 
 

but also a reason why 6 games in there isn’t a need to panic. Imo this is exactly what is going on and a team can fairly easily, and quickly, wake up from that. 
Don’t think we can read into this team too much, yet. I’ve got my questions but plenty of time to see if the team has answers. 

[taz89]

If they keep playing like this, it will eventually have to trigger some change from management, the question is how long will they wait before doing something.  If it wasn't for Rittich, we would probably be 0-6 right now.  They are only fooling themselves if they think they will be making the playoffs this year with this work ethic they currently have.  IMO, it's going to be a long painful year....but maybe thats what its going to take to get the changes this team needs.