Motivation and Work Ethic

[stubblejumper1]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

agreed. Honestly I am not surprised they have started slow I was expecting it. 
 

but also a reason why 6 games in there isn’t a need to panic. Imo this is exactly what is going on and a team can fairly easily, and quickly, wake up from that. 
Don’t think we can read into this team too much, yet. I’ve got my questions but plenty of time to see if the team has answers. 

 

The Flames have only played 6 games, so there is plenty of time to fix things.  My concern is "how are they going to fix it?"

 

Gaudreau and Tkachuk are scoring.  

 

Monahan and Lindholm have a little room for improvement.  Maybe they can add a goal per game between the two of them?

 

The other 8 forwards are contributing nothing.  4 points in 6 games.   That is awful and leaves a lot of room for improvement.  How much will they improve?  Can they add a goal per game?  This is where I am concerned.  Obviously these guys aren't going to put up zeros every game, but they may put up zeros more often than not.  It's not like they are generating many chances.

 

I went to bed after the second period last night, but other than Backlund missing the net on a breakaway I don't remember much in the way of secondary scoring chances.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, taz89 said:

If they keep playing like this, it will eventually have to trigger some change from management, the question is how long will they wait before doing something.  If it wasn't for Rittich, we would probably be 0-6 right now.  They are only fooling themselves if they think they will be making the playoffs this year with this work ethic they currently have.  IMO, it's going to be a long painful year....but maybe thats what its going to take to get the changes this team needs.

 

Taz, I actually thought that this was their work ethic last year too, for most of the year. We had a lot of slow starts last year and then turned it on halfway through games. I found wins came easily for the first half and when it got tough, the hard working Ryan, Mangiapane, Hathaway Line kept us afloat. People aren’t going to agree because we had great possession stats. 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, stubblejumper1 said:

 

The Flames have only played 6 games, so there is plenty of time to fix things.  My concern is "how are they going to fix it?"

 

Gaudreau and Tkachuk are scoring.  

 

Monahan and Lindholm have a little room for improvement.  Maybe they can add a goal per game between the two of them?

 

The other 8 forwards are contributing nothing.  4 points in 6 games.   That is awful and leaves a lot of room for improvement.  How much will they improve?  Can they add a goal per game?  This is where I am concerned.  Obviously these guys aren't going to put up zeros every game, but they may put up zeros more often than not.  It's not like they are generating many chances.

 

I went to bed after the second period last night, but other than Backlund missing the net on a breakaway I don't remember much in the way of secondary scoring chances.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yup, it was like that and it’s a good example how having the puck doesn’t mean being dangerous. We had the puck more but very rarely did I feel we were dangerous. I think Gaudreau made a few nice passes that almost felt it, but also created a scoring chance the other way once. 

 

The way the team played in their structure was a bit better. But to me it’s almost robotic, I say robotic because unless you’re the terminator there’s almost no feeling in their game. 

[travel_dude]

39 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Yup, it was like that and it’s a good example how having the puck doesn’t mean being dangerous. We had the puck more but very rarely did I feel we were dangerous. I think Gaudreau made a few nice passes that almost felt it, but also created a scoring chance the other way once. 

 

The way the team played in their structure was a bit better. But to me it’s almost robotic, I say robotic because unless you’re the terminator there’s almost no feeling in their game. 

 

I think we had about 3 grade A chances that I can think of offhand.

Bcklund breakaway.

Tkachuk in close.

Gio to Backlund miss.

 

Poor finishing is what I saw, not lack of chances.

Backlund could have about 10 goals with the number of chances he gets/

It's been the trend and also why we are not in real trouble right now.

The bigger issue for me is the bottom 6.

Have not looked like any lines working.

Mangiapane has moments of briallance.

Rieder looks good at times.

 

I don;t know the way to get the bottom 6 going, but right now they aren;t helping  lot.

Rst is a mess most games.

[taz89]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

Taz, I actually thought that this was their work ethic last year too, for most of the year. We had a lot of slow starts last year and then turned it on halfway through games. I found wins came easily for the first half and when it got tough, the hard working Ryan, Mangiapane, Hathaway Line kept us afloat. People aren’t going to agree because we had great possession stats. 

This team is a mystery to say the least...it's been their work ethic for several years, not just last year.  Different coaches have been trying to get through to them but to no avail.  I can see the frustration is building up a lot more with BP this year already.  We saw how GG reacted at some points a couple of years ago.  Most teams have figured them out already especially how to shut down the top line.  Janko, Brodie, Frolik, Bennett need to go.  We need another top 6 Center and winger that can be as much of a threat as our top line is every night.  We also need a PP defenseman specialist as Gio is not really helping.  Hoping that Anderson can be that guy but don't know.  I've been following the Flames for 30+ years now and last year a lot of people were comparing them to the 89 team.  Not even close IMO, that team was a serious threat offensively every single night.  That team put fear in opponents eyes, i seriously doubt this team does.

[cccsberg]

On 10/13/2019 at 11:01 AM, conundrumed said:

I know it's early and it's camp hockey for the 1st 10-15 games.

That we spend to the Cap is great, but why can we still not play a 60 minute game? And starting some games just looking nervous and intimidated.

As Peters called them out for work ethic after last night, I'd throw in motivation as well.

Near every game has looked like we have about 10 passengers.

Can we just bench some bodies now and tell them to watch from above until they figure out how to bring emotion and intensity?

I know the night is young, but how do fans get excited when most players don't seem to be? This team seems to get deflated so quickly.

This modern era of having to be nice to everyone lest their feelings get hurt is annoying. Should be written into these million dollar contracts. "Aaaand we're allowed to treat you any Blockchaining way we please". Humiliation is a powerful motivator. lol

 

You really have to wonder.  Look at the past 3 coaches for the team.  GGulutzen tried to be their friend, and couldn't get anything going till he went ballistic throwing a stick in practice.  BHartley was a hard-Hash Rate and drove the players to their best ("unexpected") success in years, but the players 'grew tired' of it.  BPeters can't get consistent effort to start games, though the effort picks up in-game when he shortens the bench and starts sitting guys.  Sometimes the fan outcry gets them going, like post-Pens blowout last season.  It certainly is starting to look like this group of players has some serious motivation/effort issues.  This season it is easy to understand how Brodie, Jankowski and Frolik are less than thrilled after all being failed trade chips, and knowing it.  As for the rest they just don't seem to get it.  Perhaps its too easy when they really try so it's equally easy to slack off thinking they can turn it on at will?  Not sure what but management really needs to get to the bottom of it.

[travel_dude]

42 minutes ago, taz89 said:

This team is a mystery to say the least...it's been their work ethic for several years, not just last year.  Different coaches have been trying to get through to them but to no avail.  I can see the frustration is building up a lot more with BP this year already.  We saw how GG reacted at some points a couple of years ago.  Most teams have figured them out already especially how to shut down the top line.  Janko, Brodie, Frolik, Bennett need to go.  We need another top 6 Center and winger that can be as much of a threat as our top line is every night.  We also need a PP defenseman specialist as Gio is not really helping.  Hoping that Anderson can be that guy but don't know.  I've been following the Flames for 30+ years now and last year a lot of people were comparing them to the 89 team.  Not even close IMO, that team was a serious threat offensively every single night.  That team put fear in opponents eyes, i seriously doubt this team does.

 

I will only comment on a few things.

Gio is the wrong choice for PP1.

He doesn't get clean shots from the point which is why Tkachuk is screening.

I would adjust it a bit.

Don't use the umbrella, use a 3-2 setup once they have possession.

JG-Tkachuk-Monahan

Ras-Lindy

 

JH has options of Ras for the one-timer or Lindy for walking in.

Monahan taking passes along the boards with Lindy and Ras holding the line.

 

The 2nd unit then has Gio and Hanifin.

Ryan on the line.

Backlund and Bennett.

 

I find that the lines allow for slow play by the bottom 6.

It looks unmotivated, maybe it is.

Very plodding play, nothing explosive.

If you have smaller speed guys, how is it they are playing so slow? 

 

[cccsberg]

On 10/13/2019 at 1:19 PM, travel_dude said:

Frolik has always been one of the guys that shows up the same, game in, game out.

Yet he is a victim to sub-par play from Backlund and Tkachuk.

HIs agent may call out the coach, but Frolik is the consumate pro.

He may not like his ice time or usage, but he doesn't pout about it.

 

Janko and Bennett look frustrated.  And their play is suffering from it.

Giving up on a play, pushing too hard in the wrong way, negative impact.

 

On the other hand, we have Lucic playing 13 minutes per night and PP time.

I get the why, but lets not try to force him into a role he isn't suited.

 

Here's my list of the most consistent, professional guys on the team, game in, game out and throughout each game:

Lindholm, Frolik, Lucic, Ryan, Gio, Hamonic, Anderson and Rittich.  Talbot too few games.... Pretty much the rest are hit and miss, and rest on their laurels and skills.  Although I love Gaudreau he goes into a whole new level when he is on fire, it is not that often.  Monahan has been much better this season but is still a bit sporadic.  Backlund and Tkachuk are generally good, but sometimes take the easy way out.  Bennett goes mad in playoffs but otherwise lets frustrations boil over.  Jankowski is pretty steady but fails to utilize all his talents.  Mangiapanne has been very good this year and getting better.  Czarnik getting better but too small and pushed around.  Brodie generally very good but prone to too many mistakes, and passive.  Hanifin getting better, and Stone solid but not that impactful.  Kylington plays like it seems the coaches are just waiting for an excuse to sit him, even though he seems like he has really high potential offensively but is chained.  

 

The thing is, they do not have any game-changing superstars like some other teams.  Gaudreau may be closest but being so small that really hampers his ability to take over a game.  To be effective, the whole team, or at least multiple players have to "click" together versus perhaps just 1 guy on other teams.  That's our curse but also our strength.  Right now not enough guys have bought in and its showing.

 

Of course, playing 4 of our 6 games on the road, against Top10 NHL teams probably doesn't make it any easier.... (Avs, Dallas, Vegas and San Jose) yikes!  Not like some teams....

[cccsberg]

1 hour ago, taz89 said:

This team is a mystery to say the least...it's been their work ethic for several years, not just last year.  Different coaches have been trying to get through to them but to no avail.  I can see the frustration is building up a lot more with BP this year already.  We saw how GG reacted at some points a couple of years ago.  Most teams have figured them out already especially how to shut down the top line.  Janko, Brodie, Frolik, Bennett need to go.  We need another top 6 Center and winger that can be as much of a threat as our top line is every night.  We also need a PP defenseman specialist as Gio is not really helping.  Hoping that Anderson can be that guy but don't know.  I've been following the Flames for 30+ years now and last year a lot of people were comparing them to the 89 team.  Not even close IMO, that team was a serious threat offensively every single night.  That team put fear in opponents eyes, i seriously doubt this team does.

So true about the '89 comparison.  If that team DIDN'T score 4-6 goals every night it was an off night.  They crushed teams and laughed about it on the way home.  Kind of like the Avs were laughing at us last April.....

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, cccsberg said:

Here's my list of the most consistent, professional guys on the team, game in, game out and throughout each game:

Lindholm, Frolik, Lucic, Ryan, Gio, Hamonic, Anderson and Rittich.  Talbot too few games.... Pretty much the rest are hit and miss, and rest on their laurels and skills.  Although I love Gaudreau he goes into a whole new level when he is on fire, it is not that often.  Monahan has been much better this season but is still a bit sporadic.  Backlund and Tkachuk are generally good, but sometimes take the easy way out.  Bennett goes mad in playoffs but otherwise lets frustrations boil over.  Jankowski is pretty steady but fails to utilize all his talents.  Mangiapanne has been very good this year and getting better.  Czarnik getting better but too small and pushed around.  Brodie generally very good but prone to too many mistakes, and passive.  Hanifin getting better, and Stone solid but not that impactful.  Kylington plays like it seems the coaches are just waiting for an excuse to sit him, even though he seems like he has really high potential offensively but is chained.  

 

The thing is, they do not have any game-changing superstars like some other teams.  Gaudreau may be closest but being so small that really hampers his ability to take over a game.  To be effective, the whole team, or at least multiple players have to "click" together versus perhaps just 1 guy on other teams.  That's our curse but also our strength.  Right now not enough guys have bought in and its showing.

 

Of course, playing 4 of our 6 games on the road, against Top10 NHL teams probably doesn't make it any easier.... (Avs, Dallas, Vegas and San Jose) yikes!  Not like some teams....

 

Small sample size.

Game changing superstars....

Guadreau is one, but the support staff isn;t always thinking the game at the same level.

For all the talk that the NHL protects its stars, they don't.

The Sharks was a blatant example of being mugged and no police showing up.

He's smaller so teams get away with it, because it looks like he can;t stand up.

In other games, they call it because hey it's a bigger player so it must be a penalty.  No way does McDavid get pushed over unless its a foul.

 

So you take away the game breaker and Robin has to pick up the slack.

Monahan and Lindy have been okay, just not able to do much when the QB is sacked.

Monahan's shot has been a bit off, but he should rebound.

Most teams have this one player that is the game breaker.

 

I'm not making excuses here.

The top line has scored the majority of the goals.

The depth has done nothing to score.

Chances are there, some more than others.

 

I might argue about your choices for consitency though.

Hamonic has been up and down; great one game, a liability the next.

Ryan has been all but invisible; his biggest contribution to date has been winning faceoffs.

Frolik has only played well on the 3M line.

Gio, Ras, and Rittich have been 3 of the best.

Bennett, Janko, and Rieder have done the least good.

Rieder has done little to be scratched for.

 

Bennett seems to have accepted his role, but he is trying to do more than that.

He hasn't shown much speed, a decent shot, or defensive smarts.

As a forechecker or guy getting PP time, he needs to display the 1st two.

I see a frustrated player.

Same is true of Janko.

It's a Catch 22 situation.

You won't get more icetime if you don;t do more.

You are not going to do more without more icetime.

 

 

 

[cccsberg]

13 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Small sample size.

Game changing superstars....

Guadreau is one, but the support staff isn;t always thinking the game at the same level.

For all the talk that the NHL protects its stars, they don't.

The Sharks was a blatant example of being mugged and no police showing up.

He's smaller so teams get away with it, because it looks like he can;t stand up.

In other games, they call it because hey it's a bigger player so it must be a penalty.  No way does McDavid get pushed over unless its a foul.

 

So you take away the game breaker and Robin has to pick up the slack.

Monahan and Lindy have been okay, just not able to do much when the QB is sacked.

Monahan's shot has been a bit off, but he should rebound.

Most teams have this one player that is the game breaker.

 

I'm not making excuses here.

The top line has scored the majority of the goals.

The depth has done nothing to score.

Chances are there, some more than others.

 

I might argue about your choices for consitency though.

Hamonic has been up and down; great one game, a liability the next.

Ryan has been all but invisible; his biggest contribution to date has been winning faceoffs.

Frolik has only played well on the 3M line.

Gio, Ras, and Rittich have been 3 of the best.

Bennett, Janko, and Rieder have done the least good.

Rieder has done little to be scratched for.

 

Bennett seems to have accepted his role, but he is trying to do more than that.

He hasn't shown much speed, a decent shot, or defensive smarts.

As a forechecker or guy getting PP time, he needs to display the 1st two.

I see a frustrated player.

Same is true of Janko.

It's a Catch 22 situation.

You won't get more icetime if you don;t do more.

You are not going to do more without more icetime.

 

 

 

I agree Gaudreau is our game-breaker, and also agree he gets abused more than others due to his size.  Because of that he isn't as effective as others, let's say Crosby/Malkin....  I just read a comment on FN that the Oilers' current strategy is simple: Just stay close and hope that either Mcdavid or Draisatl do something spectacular.  They are and so they are winning.  Well, weak opposition I'm sure helps but you get my drift.  Let's just say its easier to shut down Gaudreau than those two, largely because of his size.  Also because of size I'm sure Gaudreau is a more effective distributor than net-driver, hence needing more than himself to be effective.  This is just the lot of the Flames.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cccsberg said:

I agree Gaudreau is our game-breaker, and also agree he gets abused more than others due to his size.  Because of that he isn't as effective as others, let's say Crosby/Malkin....  I just read a comment on FN that the Oilers' current strategy is simple: Just stay close and hope that either Mcdavid or Draisatl do something spectacular.  They are and so they are winning.  Well, weak opposition I'm sure helps but you get my drift.  Let's just say its easier to shut down Gaudreau than those two, largely because of his size.  Also because of size I'm sure Gaudreau is a more effective distributor than net-driver, hence needing more than himself to be effective.  This is just the lot of the Flames.

 

The warning sign are there in Edmonchuk.

Trailing in every game and able to get wins in 5 of 6.

Game breakers like McDavid have issues with their defensive games.

He's good at stripping the puck, but sometimes cheats too much offensively.

You can work with a guy like that, but to date they are still just exploiting his offensive side.

[conundrumed]

22 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The warning sign are there in Edmonchuk.

Trailing in every game and able to get wins in 5 of 6.

Game breakers like McDavid have issues with their defensive games.

He's good at stripping the puck, but sometimes cheats too much offensively.

You can work with a guy like that, but to date they are still just exploiting his offensive side.

I think with Tippett coaching, they'll play a hangaround game until the 3rd and try to cut the horses loose. But we've already seen 2 glaring mistakes by Smith leading to goals. They're going to need Koskinen because Smith is still the deflating goalie that we had. On Nylander's winner last night, Smith said (to paraphrase), "I thought the puck was coming faster than it was and when I realized that I wasn't going to get there, it was too late". Sound familiar?

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I think with Tippett coaching, they'll play a hangaround game until the 3rd and try to cut the horses loose. But we've already seen 2 glaring mistakes by Smith leading to goals. They're going to need Koskinen because Smith is still the deflating goalie that we had. On Nylander's winner last night, Smith said (to paraphrase), "I thought the puck was coming faster than it was and when I realized that I wasn't going to get there, it was too late". Sound familiar?

 

I don't know if it's really a hangaround game, or whether they get down and then apply pressure.

Either way, they have been fortunate to be in games until the 3rd period.

 

[jjgallow]

[The_People1]

Do you guys think that almost "allegedly" getting trade to Toronto has affect the motivation of Jankowski and Brodie?

[Thebrewcrew]

 

[rickross]

18 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

Do you guys think that almost "allegedly" getting trade to Toronto has affect the motivation of Jankowski and Brodie?

If anything it should only boost their motivation even more, you’d think they’d be out to disprove BT this year...make him regret even considering trading them. Haven’t seen that motivation yet tho! Lol regardless aren’t they both in contract years? That always seems to motivate players...

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, rickross said:

If anything it should only boost their motivation even more, you’d think they’d be out to disprove BT this year...make him regret even considering trading them. Haven’t seen that motivation yet tho! Lol regardless aren’t they both in contract years? That always seems to motivate players...

 

I also think that being traded to TOR for each of those guys would be a good thing.

Imagine playing in the center of the hockey universe.

[JTech780]

The biggest problem I see with this team, is penalties, lazy penalties at that. We can say they are soft, and that may be true, but they are giving the refs opportunities to make calls. They are putting sticks in the feet and hands of the opposing players, they taking their hands off their sticks and reaching with the free hand. These things haven't changed in the last 5 years, these are things that the players should know better than to do, yet they aren't changing they way they are playing. Once that gets cleared up the rest of the game will follow.

[cross16]

On 10/14/2019 at 9:35 AM, stubblejumper1 said:

 

The Flames have only played 6 games, so there is plenty of time to fix things.  My concern is "how are they going to fix it?"

 

Gaudreau and Tkachuk are scoring.  

 

Monahan and Lindholm have a little room for improvement.  Maybe they can add a goal per game between the two of them?

 

The other 8 forwards are contributing nothing.  4 points in 6 games.   That is awful and leaves a lot of room for improvement.  How much will they improve?  Can they add a goal per game?  This is where I am concerned.  Obviously these guys aren't going to put up zeros every game, but they may put up zeros more often than not.  It's not like they are generating many chances.

 

I went to bed after the second period last night, but other than Backlund missing the net on a breakaway I don't remember much in the way of secondary scoring chances.  

 

 

Frolik and Ryan are 2 veteran players who have started slow in the past. Both are starting to come up and will get it going and be good. Last 2 games I thikn both have started to generate multiple scoring chances and then obviously Frolik got one. That will continue.

 

I thikn you are looking at one of Mangiapange/Bennett to step up and raise their game. Mangiapange has been terrific so far this season, outside of finish which comes with timing and missing camp, so smart money on him but I think it's reasonable. Once that happens I don't think secondary score will be the problem people think. Also have Dube coming up during the season as well to provide jump.

[robrob74]

8 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Frolik and Ryan are 2 veteran players who have started slow in the past. Both are starting to come up and will get it going and be good. Last 2 games I thikn both have started to generate multiple scoring chances and then obviously Frolik got one. That will continue.

 

I thikn you are looking at one of Mangiapange/Bennett to step up and raise their game. Mangiapange has been terrific so far this season, outside of finish which comes with timing and missing camp, so smart money on him but I think it's reasonable. Once that happens I don't think secondary score will be the problem people think. Also have Dube coming up during the season as well to provide jump.

 

It sounds good. But for me I want Dube to stay down to keep developing. I guess it is good to see NHL action and he is close. I know he isn’t necessarily like Bennett, but I think it’s time for some prospects to simmer a bit in the AHL. High end prospects make it earlier, but some need to develop.

[Horsman1]

On 10/14/2019 at 11:42 AM, robrob74 said:

 

Yup, it was like that and it’s a good example how having the puck doesn’t mean being dangerous. We had the puck more but very rarely did I feel we were dangerous. I think Gaudreau made a few nice passes that almost felt it, but also created a scoring chance the other way once. 

 

The way the team played in their structure was a bit better. But to me it’s almost robotic, I say robotic because unless you’re the terminator there’s almost no feeling in their game. 

maybe robotic because there are so many players not playing their normal positions.. they are always thinking the game rather than feeling the game.. This team is not structured well.. 

 

[robrob74]

26 minutes ago, Horsman1 said:

maybe robotic because there are so many players not playing their normal positions.. they are always thinking the game rather than feeling the game.. This team is not structured well.. 

 

 

 

I have to agree with this. We are a good team when “on”. But needing to think too much can be bad.

[conundrumed]

Currently watching Buffalo vs Anaheim. These teams are fast and hard, We better find a rhythm. Both of these "non-playoff" teams look hungry. Anaheim really has some great young players we may have overlooked over time.