Calgary Flames Drafting and Development: Your Analysis

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

I don't agree.  What is more appealing 2 playoff games or 10+.  Yes they want to get the guaranteed 2 but I don't think they don't care about the other 10 million or so from a deep run.  I think they are trying to get there, they don't pay coaches not to coach or players not to play if they are content with their performances.  They want to win, how they are going about doing it can be questioned for sure but these are big ego guys who want to increase their brand, their brand grows with banners, we can look at the Chicagos and Pittsburghs and say it is an easy blueprint to follow, or you can look at the teams that have just won (St. Louis and Washington) who only took over 40 years to do so, add in the teams that still haven't Vancouver, Buffalo, Arizona/Winnipeg, Florida, Ottawa, CBJ, Minnesota, and teams that haven't won in over 30 years Flyers, Islanders, Leafs.  This isn't an easy league and misery loves company.

 

We are talking about the rewards of delayed gratification when it comes to a rebuild and player development.  This ownership group lacks patience.

[The_People1]

19 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

The Hawks and Penguins plan wont work any more as all their big pieces were obtained pre lottery. Which out of the remaining options the Flames are probably closest to Philly and/or the Nucks. They may make some noise occasionally, just enough to give the fans hope and enough to keep the idea of rebuild on the back burner but eventually come up way too short. In these days of draft lotto (which needs to be done way better) planning your future on lotto luck is as ideal as planning your own future on winning the 6/49.

 

Until we have a fully unweighted lotto system, there is still some merit to going full tank.  Worse you pick is 4th which can still land a franchise altering player.  Best is #1.

 

Again, not to discount the other round because certainly teams have found franchise players in round 2 and beyond so that still has to happen regardless.  

 

It's just to say, if we play the odds, then we can return favorable results.

[jjgallow]

41 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Until we have a fully unweighted lotto system, there is still some merit to going full tank.  Worse you pick is 4th which can still land a franchise altering player.  Best is #1.

 

Again, not to discount the other round because certainly teams have found franchise players in round 2 and beyond so that still has to happen regardless.  

 

It's just to say, if we play the odds, then we can return favorable results.

 

It's actually better now, to be honest, if you're doing a proper rebuild (in my mind of what that is).   Which is having a lineup which is bottom 5 in the league, but still doing your best to make the most of that lineup.   BTW with that method you will find some keepers too.   Means giving guys a chance that weren't given a chance elsewhere.

 

Doing that, in the old system you had Zero chance of getting first overall (otherwise known as the Oilers pick).   Because there is always an organization out there with no shame.

 

Now, you can at least try to be competitive with the pieces you have, and, over 2-4 seasons odds are you will get at least 1 first overall.

[sak22]

22 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

We are talking about the rewards of delayed gratification when it comes to a rebuild and player development.  This ownership group lacks patience.

I'd love to see how patient you'd be if you owned a team you went 5 years of sucking in 2010-2015 and picking top 5 every year and what you have to show is Gudbranson, Ryan Strome, Griffin Reinhart, Drouin, Dal Colle and Dylan Strome.  That's a dream team there all top 5 picks, be patient with that, what we do is criticize and its the easiest thing to do.  How many of us would be different as owners, I would guarantee none of us would enjoy getting crapped on and paying a lot of money for poor results.  We think we're different because were Flames fans and its been like this for 30 years, but this is the same old song and dance that every fan base goes through.  I hear it with all the other teams I cheer for as well, and 2 of them won recently, but it was the same thing blah blah only care being a playoff team, don't have any patience.  

 

Maybe in 2013 Carolina takes Monahan and leaves us with Lindholm who had a slower transition to the league, maybe either Vancouver or Edmonton take Tkachuk and leaves us with worse players who aren't ready to be near 50 point rookies, then maybe we are in position in '15 for a top guy or in '17 (for the 3-5, guys not 1 and 2).  But god forbid the disaster of playing 18 year olds who contribute as 18 year olds, and even worse if those 2 players help you win games.  The playoff series 7 of our top 9 were in house guys, with one an acquisition at a still young 23.  3 or the top 4 for in house, with the other being acquired at 21.  It's not rocket science that we could use a top C, but we failed at getting Barkov and McKinnon in '13 and Matthews in '16 and were too good for McDavid and Eichel in '15 and Pettersen in '17, and outside of Point not a lot so far in the later rounds those years.  Yes, I know your counter is we should have stayed bad for '15, but ask Arizona about that, an astronomical drop in talent from Eichel to Strome, and Strome is not and upgrade on Monahan and Backlund.  I'm not trying to sound like I think the glass is half full and things are great, you see top 5 picks as gold, I exercise caution that most years at least 2 don't mount out to anything that would be an upgrade over Monahan or Gio/Brodie franchise players don't grow on trees and they don't come every year, you see Pittsburgh, LA and Chicago, I see Edmonton, Florida, Buffalo, Arizona, as I said misery loves company talk to fans of those teams about your problems.  I want changes like everyone else, but not changes for the sake of change or to move to a lottery favorite.

 

 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

It's actually better now, to be honest, if you're doing a proper rebuild (in my mind of what that is).   Which is having a lineup which is bottom 5 in the league, but still doing your best to make the most of that lineup.   BTW with that method you will find some keepers too.   Means giving guys a chance that weren't given a chance elsewhere.

 

Doing that, in the old system you had Zero chance of getting first overall (otherwise known as the Oilers pick).   Because there is always an organization out there with no shame.

 

Now, you can at least try to be competitive with the pieces you have, and, over 2-4 seasons odds are you will get at least 1 first overall.

 

Fair enough.  Pre-lottery, you had to try really hard to get that #1 pick because there's competition at the bottom. Nowadays, just hang around 5th worst and chances are good you can move up into top 3 and even into #1.  

 

League is so close now.  The difference between 5th worst and 12th worst may only be 7 or 8 wins/losses.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

I'd love to see how patient you'd be if you owned a team you went 5 years of sucking in 2010-2015 and picking top 5 every year and what you have to show is Gudbranson, Ryan Strome, Griffin Reinhart, Drouin, Dal Colle and Dylan Strome.  That's a dream team there all top 5 picks, be patient with that, what we do is criticize and its the easiest thing to do.  How many of us would be different as owners, I would guarantee none of us would enjoy getting crapped on and paying a lot of money for poor results.  We think we're different because were Flames fans and its been like this for 30 years, but this is the same old song and dance that every fan base goes through.  I hear it with all the other teams I cheer for as well, and 2 of them won recently, but it was the same thing blah blah only care being a playoff team, don't have any patience.  

 

Maybe in 2013 Carolina takes Monahan and leaves us with Lindholm who had a slower transition to the league, maybe either Vancouver or Edmonton take Tkachuk and leaves us with worse players who aren't ready to be near 50 point rookies, then maybe we are in position in '15 for a top guy or in '17 (for the 3-5, guys not 1 and 2).  But god forbid the disaster of playing 18 year olds who contribute as 18 year olds, and even worse if those 2 players help you win games.  The playoff series 7 of our top 9 were in house guys, with one an acquisition at a still young 23.  3 or the top 4 for in house, with the other being acquired at 21.  It's not rocket science that we could use a top C, but we failed at getting Barkov and McKinnon in '13 and Matthews in '16 and were too good for McDavid and Eichel in '15 and Pettersen in '17, and outside of Point not a lot so far in the later rounds those years.  Yes, I know your counter is we should have stayed bad for '15, but ask Arizona about that, an astronomical drop in talent from Eichel to Strome, and Strome is not and upgrade on Monahan and Backlund.  I'm not trying to sound like I think the glass is half full and things are great, you see top 5 picks as gold, I exercise caution that most years at least 2 don't mount out to anything that would be an upgrade over Monahan or Gio/Brodie franchise players don't grow on trees and they don't come every year, you see Pittsburgh, LA and Chicago, I see Edmonton, Florida, Buffalo, Arizona, as I said misery loves company talk to fans of those teams about your problems.  I want changes like everyone else, but not changes for the sake of change or to move to a lottery favorite.

 

Okay just wanted to be sure we are talking about the same thing.

 

Rob was saying "ownership didn't want to win *THE CUP*", he was saying ownership only wanted to win *games* which i can understand is a bit confusing.  You seem to also agree ownership wants to win games because you say its almost human nature to have no patience if you own an NHL team.  Okay.  I think we all agree there.

 

So, looks like what we disagree on is the idea that patience is even required when talking about winning a Cup.  Or more specifically, "building not to win today but building to win tomorrow".  This is a sound strategy but it requires buy in from ownership group.  Why would this not be a good strategy?  We're talking about creating the foundation first before we build the house on top.  In practice, sure it's fair to say many teams have tried this and failed miserably as 30 teams fail every season to win the Cup (soon to be 31 after Seattle comes into the league).  In theory, how can it be done any other way?

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

50 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Fair enough.  Pre-lottery, you had to try really hard to get that #1 pick because there's competition at the bottom. Nowadays, just hang around 5th worst and chances are good you can move up into top 3 and even into #1.  

 

League is so close now.  The difference between 5th worst and 12th worst may only be 7 or 8 wins/losses.

Factor in any OTL points and that difference could narrow down to 3-4 wins. Mathematically you could lose (OTL) every game and still only be 10 - 12 pts from a wildcard spot, which only highlites the overall crummyness of the OTL point.

[The_People1]

1 minute ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Factor in any OTL points and that difference could narrow down to 3-4 wins. Mathematically you could lose (OTL) every game and still only be 10 - 12 pts from a wildcard spot, which only highlites the overall crummyness of the OTL point.

 

Yups.  So while the Hawks and Penguins plans won't work anymore, perhaps it's not required anymore.  Just be bad but not absolutely the worst.  But it still takes 3 or 4 years... at the end of the day, #1 Centers, #1 D, and stud goaltending don't get traded often and are rarely available via UFA.  If you don't draft them, then you won't have any.  Yes you can find one in late 1st round or the 2nd round but that's also rare.  Best to play the odds.  Put the team in the best situation to succeed and that means having patience while the team spends time in the basement of the NHL standings for a few years.

[sak22]

27 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Okay just wanted to be sure we are talking about the same thing.

 

Rob was saying "ownership didn't want to win *THE CUP*", he was saying ownership only wanted to win *games* which i can understand is a bit confusing.  You seem to also agree ownership wants to win games because you say its almost human nature to have no patience if you own an NHL team.  Okay.  I think we all agree there.

 

So, looks like what we disagree on is the idea that patience is even required when talking about winning a Cup.  Or more specifically, "building not to win today but building to win tomorrow".  This is a sound strategy but it requires buy in from ownership group.  Why would this not be a good strategy?  We're talking about creating the foundation first before we build the house on top.  In practice, sure it's fair to say many teams have tried this and failed miserably as 30 teams fail every season to win the Cup (soon to be 31 after Seattle comes into the league).  In theory, how can it be done any other way?

Nope I'm saying that is what every other fan base who isn't winning says, can't blame all the fired coaches and GMs for ever so its the only non-moving target.   I just find it a tired argument.

 

Nope I agree with that.  I've been patient since it started back in 2013.  But I'm not for hitting a reset button just because you hit a snag, I think there are pieces to work with (Tkachuk, Dube, Lindholm, Bennett, Valimaki, Mangiapane, Andersson, Hanifin), and I think we have pieces that we've maxed out on (Gaudreau, Monahan or Backlund), and a piece who's role needs to start reducing (Gio).  I think we can move Gaudreau and Monahan for little return and still be a middling team next year, so I think retooling is more the route I'd take now.  Lets not forget the group I listed first is still 25 and under, you also need show patience that they can reach higher levels as well.

[The_People1]

30 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Nope I'm saying that is what every other fan base who isn't winning says, can't blame all the fired coaches and GMs for ever so its the only non-moving target.   I just find it a tired argument.

 

Nope I agree with that.  I've been patient since it started back in 2013.  But I'm not for hitting a reset button just because you hit a snag, I think there are pieces to work with (Tkachuk, Dube, Lindholm, Bennett, Valimaki, Mangiapane, Andersson, Hanifin), and I think we have pieces that we've maxed out on (Gaudreau, Monahan or Backlund), and a piece who's role needs to start reducing (Gio).  I think we can move Gaudreau and Monahan for little return and still be a middling team next year, so I think retooling is more the route I'd take now.  Lets not forget the group I listed first is still 25 and under, you also need show patience that they can reach higher levels as well.

 

Well every other fan base is right though lol... Well, not exactly I guess because some owners have been patient and their team is reaping it's rewards.  

 

What kind of returns for Gaudreau and Monahan do you want to see?  Immediate impact or future impact? I guess that's the point of the whole discussion.  Ownership wants immediate impact.  Good luck with that.

[JTech780]

17 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Agreed so the million dollar question is, how do we fix this for our next rebuild?

 

It kind of seems like this is a problem from ownership down.  The mandate to win at all costs means coaches are forced to go with their favorites rather than giving the young kids an opportunity to make mistakes and learn.

 

In baseball we seeing more and more that management gets final say on player usage, some teams going as far as to call the shots in game from above.

 

Now I don't want to go to that extreme, but I think we are getting to the point where you can have management and you development staff determining a players usage within a game. 

 

I just wonder where we would be if Treliving forced the coaches hands and made the coach play Bennett in a top 6 center role for a season. Or if he forced a coach to use Monahan on the PK, to help develop defensive responsibility.

[sak22]

20 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Well every other fan base is right though lol... Well, not exactly I guess because some owners have been patient and their team is reaping it's rewards.  

 

What kind of returns for Gaudreau and Monahan do you want to see?  Immediate impact or future impact? I guess that's the point of the whole discussion.  Ownership wants immediate impact.  Good luck with that.

I'd target, immediate futures if that makes sense lol, a young up and comer with picks.  I'd love a similar move to the Carter to Columbus trade in which you get a piece that is still growing and a top 10 pick, but preferably someone who is now an NHL player or has shown they are capable in a limited spot.  I'd love a situation like what Philly did with Richards and Carter, I just would hope we fix the goaltending better than they did.  Might not be able to get that type return as Richards and Carter had better track record for winning.

 

I'd try Gaudreau for Necas and #13 from Carolina, I know Necas has been thrown around by others and I like the target, and at the draft trade down at #19 into the mid 20's and get another 2nd.  I have no ideas on Monahan though, still not a must go for me.

[tmac70]

So here is my 2 cents. Lets look at Brayden Point as a HUGE failure in the Flames Organization. Alberta product that was much like Gadreau, domintated in every league. I rember watching this kid in the WHL playoffs a 16 year old. So here is a kid that lead the playoffs on the team with points, in the PLAYOFFS. I am good friends with the family he stayed with in Junior, great mild mannered kid. So local kid, playing a province away for 3 years, but always was the best player on the ice nigh in and night out. This was the year the Flames drafted, Bennett, McDonald, Hunter Smith, Brandon Hickey Point was drafted 79th overall, and if anyone is watching the current playoffs, the best playeron the ice. 

 

Now Point was small and skatikng was a concern but funy that NO ONE in the Flames organization or Edmonton for that matter never took a chance on this kid. I get every team passed on him but when your a local kid with that much talent, how is it that your local teams never took a shot. This goes into what I have said before, everyone else seems to find diamonds and we currenlty get fools gold

[jjgallow]

I feel that ownership has been more concerned with consistent revenue than blowing it out of the park.

 

From a business perspective, I see it.

 

But it's contingent on being able to fill the dome with mediocre hockey.    So far they've been successful at this, unfortuantely.

[robrob74]

I caught the tail end of Elliott on the Fan with Steinberg. It sounds like the Flames are in on Kuemper. It’ll be a first rounder plus. Them and the oil are in on him. 
 

I don’t like the sound of this. I sm tired of the Flames using picks for goalies. What else would it cost?

[cross16]

The Flames captain is a undrafted free agent.

Their best offensive forward, and top 75 player in the game, is a 4th round pick. 

Their 2nd best dman is a 4th round pick.

One of their top 6 forwards, who was top 50 in the league this year in 5 on 5 goals, is a 6th round pick

 

I get it's easier to focus on what you don't have than what you do and for sure Point is a failure for a club that had him in their own backyard, but let's not pretend this is easy nor forget that the Flames are actually pretty successful in finding gems themselves. 

 

[robrob74]

38 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

I feel that ownership has been more concerned with consistent revenue than blowing it out of the park.

 

From a business perspective, I see it.

 

But it's contingent on being able to fill the dome with mediocre hockey.    So far they've been successful at this, unfortuantely.

 

and what I am saying is, build right and have a consistent revenue stream and deeper runs in the playoffs. If they are perennial contenders they can possibly Go deep in the playoffs every year. 

 

Sure the owners spend to the cap, and say they want good teams, but they’re not willing to do the proper thing and develop players and allow them to grow. Instead they rushed in and started trading away picks to get assets to help now. And it sounds like in a deep draft they’re going to trade our first rounder for a goalie when they can possibly sign one in UFA. 
 

they’re sacrificing the future for now and this team isn’t deep enough to say it was actually the goaltending that failed them. The last two playoffs the goalies have been the Flames best players. 
 

I say re-sign Talbot instead of giving up assets to get Kuemper. Deep draft, we need more organizational depth.

[cross16]

Friedman has the Flames in on everyone. until it happens i'd take his reports with a grain of salt. 

 

I do not see Treliving giving up his 1st for Keumper. 

[robrob74]

5 minutes ago, cross16 said:

The Flames captain is a undrafted free agent.

Their best offensive forward, and top 75 player in the game, is a 4th round pick. 

Their 2nd best dman is a 4th round pick.

One of their top 6 forwards, who was top 50 in the league this year in 5 on 5 goals, is a 5th round pick

 

I get it's easier to focus on what you don't have than what you do and for sure Point is a failure for a club that had him in their own backyard, but let's not pretend this is easy nor forget that the Flames are actually pretty successful in finding gems themselves. 

 

 

and that’s great! I don’t think we are discounting any of that just because we haven’t  mentioned it. We all know and see these things but all agree we just aren’t there yet for a variety of reasons. For me trading away picks and not accumulating ones is a huge reason they’re just not there yet. It’s that process that has us in this spot right now. 
 

I can’t see the organization going rebuild again, maybe Johnny or Monny get traded. Does trading a first plus make us that much better (for Kuemper)? 

[cross16]

I think the Flames owners mandate is you can't win the cup if you are not in the dance, so no they are not willing to miss the dance and if they do you better get right back at it.

 

Fair to question and disagree with that approach but I also don't think it's fair to say it's wrong or question they commitment to the team. This is a club that had a 4-5 year run of paying 2 head coaches, has authorized a bunch of buyouts and even in a crappy economy for them have kept spending at the cap.

 

I don't agree with the approach but unless you know them personally I think suggesting they don't want to win a cup isn't fair. They do, they just disagree with some on how to get there. 

[The_People1]

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Friedman has the Flames in on everyone. until it happens i'd take his reports with a grain of salt. 

 

I do not see Treliving giving up his 1st for Keumper. 

 

Oh man no, please.  I'd rather hear Friedman report Treliving it taking calls on every one of his players.

[sak22]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

 

and what I am saying is, build right and have a consistent revenue stream and deeper runs in the playoffs. If they are perennial contenders they can possibly Go deep in the playoffs every year. 

 

Sure the owners spend to the cap, and say they want good teams, but they’re not willing to do the proper thing and develop players and allow them to grow. Instead they rushed in and started trading away picks to get assets to help now. And it sounds like in a deep draft they’re going to trade our first rounder for a goalie when they can possibly sign one in UFA. 
 

they’re sacrificing the future for now and this team isn’t deep enough to say it was actually the goaltending that failed them. The last two playoffs the goalies have been the Flames best players. 
 

I say re-sign Talbot instead of giving up assets to get Kuemper. Deep draft, we need more organizational depth.

Who was underdeveloped?  How is it owners, I felt Bennett was underutilized and GG frustrated me with Brouwer's utilization but I don't feel there was a mandate to maximize Brouwer, if so why did Mason Raymond lose time to Gaudreau, Bennett, Jooris, Granlund etc. etc., different coaches, same GM, same President, same owners.  The difference was the GG decided to live and die with the Brouwerplay, but as I said earlier 7 of the top 9 F developed in house, 3 of the top 4 d, Linholm and Hanifin came in at 23 and 21 (why does that seem old to people).

[sak22]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

Oh man no, please.  I'd rather hear Friedman report Treliving it taking calls on every one of his players.

That's Eklund

[cross16]

7 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Oh man no, please.  I'd rather hear Friedman report Treliving it taking calls on every one of his players.

 

I really like Friedman as an analyst so this isn't to challenge his credibility but i'm a big believer that Treliving and the Flames use him as a pawn to leak info. Friedman does a lot of reporting and speculating on the Flames but IMO seems to hardly ever have a good handle on their direction. 

 

Long story short, i don't put a lot of stock into what he says unless it's a done deal. I find it's generally a smoke screen but for what's its worth he has mentioned he suspects the Flames are open to anything and will make changes just won't sell low.  

[sak22]

I don't know how in depth conversations with Arizona over Kuemper are and OEL also being mentioned is curious, but I would think they would make a decision on a GM before moving either of them.