Goaltending

[travel_dude]

To be honest I think Jmac has earned it. I know he let in 5 goals on 23 shots or whatever it was but 3 of those goals were from mistakes made by the team and they left him out to dry. He also made some very timely saves to keep it tied and a big part of goaltending is making timely saves.

 

I would agree, however, that it would be best if Ramo got more starts. We know what we have with Jmac, he's is a career backup goalie. Ramo has the potential to be a starter in this league, or he has the potential to end up back in Russia after his contract expires. The fact is we don't yet know what we have with him.

 

Now while I agree with Hartley and the coaching staff that Jmac has earned THIS start, I would hope that they will work Ramo into some more games on a consistent basis. Hopefully he performs well enough to earn himself even more starts.

8 goals on 60 shots vs. 4 goals on 39 shots, and he has earned it?  Against the Nucks he was 5 goals on 28 shots, all even strength.  Can't see it.  Ramo was 4 goals on 39 shots, 2 of which were PP goals.  He kept us in it to the SO, but just wasn't prepared for the likes of Grabo and Ovi. 

[kehatch]

8 goals on 60 shots vs. 4 goals on 39 shots, and he has earned it?  Against the Nucks he was 5 goals on 28 shots, all even strength.  Can't see it.  Ramo was 4 goals on 39 shots, 2 of which were PP goals.  He kept us in it to the SO, but just wasn't prepared for the likes of Grabo and Ovi. 

 

I think MacDonald has looked more solid than Ramo.  Does that mean he earned the next start?  Dunno.  But in the interest of moving the team forward I think it would make a LOT more sense to play Ramo.  But as someone else suggested the Flames might just be sheltering Ramo from playing against Montreal (his old team).  That said, barring MacDonald standing on his head, the Flames better be starting Ramo in the game after.  MacDonald is not the goalie of the future, and if he is the goalie of the present we are in trouble.  The devil you don't know is the better option when the one you know has nasty horns and breathes olive smelling fire.    

[C_worthy]

Apparently MacDonald has a career GAA of under 2 against the Habs and Ramo's is 3.75 (yes, that was a long time ago - don't shoot the messenger).

Hartley is just playing the guy that plays well against them.

Also, he may be going slowly with Ramo just to give him some time to get used to the angles, get more familiar with the pace, etc.

[Louis23]

Again, why in the WORLD are we playing this goalie? He is an AHL plug and an average backup AT BEST. We're just WASTING our time. We should be playing Ramo to see what he really has and if he can't answer the bell then we should be trying out Berra. MacD is a guy that's been on waivers many time. I don't know why we love him so much. We say he's been good yet he is the 40th ranked goalie in SV % and GAA. We say he had a good game yet he let in 5 goals on 28 shots. It's like Ben Street, I don't why the coaches love him so much. He hasn't been better than Ramo, and at this point, if he hasn't outplayed Ramo and forced the coaches to play him then he shouldn't get the starts. Ramo should be getting the starts by default unless he is outplayed by MacD. We brought him in for 5M to see if he can play in the league, not to sit and watch MacD play. We know damn too well MacD will be gone by next year..... what a waste of time, geez!

[phoenix66]

It does make absolutely no sense..I can only think hes being dangled as as trade bait. I don't buy the "sheltering him from his old team" stance as he was their property in rights only..

If this is a rebuild, then you bite the bullet and give your supposed #1 a streak bof games and let him play himself in or out. He played quite well in game 1, ... im really shaking my head at this.

[geos]

Or, the other explanation: Feaster screwed up again and Ramo has been a bust all camp. Unfortunately the $5M contract forces his hand so Ramo has to play with the big club. 

 

Ramo hasn't shown me he's better than JMac. Let the better goalie play. I don't think either will be here after 2 seasons, max. If anything we should be frustrated we aren't seeing Berra. 

[Young_Guns_V2]

I think that if Ramo lost a game 5-4 in SO and MCdonald lost a game in OT 5-4 then Ramo should get the next gig. I dont think it is a good idea playing Mcdonald and benchin Ramo all of the time. They need to Ramo a bounce back game sooner rather than later. MCdonald is a backup at best.

[swayze67]

I think there is more to the story such as a slight injury, poor performance in practices, etc.  But I agree that it is a rebuild era so let him play and see what he has and wether he improves his game at all.   I would play who wins if it were between ramo and berra, but with mac I would play the shift out of ramo.

[Zirakzigil]

Its pretty stupid in my opinion they arent playing Ramo. He needs to play to get better, Mac is as good as hes ever going to be.

[Carty]

Ramo hasn't shown me he's better than JMac. Let the better goalie play.

 

Big Mac hasn't shown that he is better than Ramo up to this point either...

 

Its pretty stupid in my opinion they arent playing Ramo. He needs to play to get better, Mac is as good as hes ever going to be.

 

Ramo would have been my choice as the starter tonight...   If anything, he had motivation to play well against the Habs for letting him go when they had his NHL rights...

[TheGuyWithCheese]

Ramo needs another chance, this decision makes no sense to me. Ramo let in 4 goals, 2 of which were on the powerplay and 2 were scored by the best player in league at the moment. 

[madsprite18]

As far as someone's speculation that the Habs might have the book on Ramo, he never played for their organization electing to play in the KHL instead.  Any info they have on him is either way outdated from his TB days, not applicable since it was on the larger ice surface in the KHL, or simply based on pre-season scouting - none of which adds up to them having much of a clue as to what to expect from Ramo.

 

In game 1 against the Caps, Ramo was outstanding in the first period and in OT.  If it hadn't been for costly penalties and defensive breakdowns, the Flames would won that game in regulation and we would have likely seen Ramo start against both Columbus and Vancouver.

[Zoller]

Good game by Jmac tonight. Made some really big and timely saves. Obviously the coaching staff made the right call in giving him the start tonight. That stacked pads save was amazing.

 

Ramo has his work cut out for him. If you all remember when Kipper was faltering last year Jmac earned the trust of Hartley. I think Hartley sees Jmac as the best goalie we have right now(he may be right). And that cant bode well for Ramo's development.

 

Ramo should get better the more games he plays. But he may need to improve to get those games.

[Young_Guns_V2]

J mac made some cool saves but he has terrible rebound control. I hope we get to still see Ramo in the not too distant future.

[cfreining]

JMac played well tonight, but I hope that Ramo will get the start against NJ.

 

Since we are now a blue collar team, the training is the place to earn the spot. Whoever works hardest will get the start and I believe it will be Ramo on Friday.

[Zirakzigil]

It will be Mac on Friday. Which is stupid but he was the reason the Flames won tonight.

[Louis23]

Glad for Mac, but I'm sad we're gonna have to see him in the net again for maybe 2+ starts in a row... i guess there is our goaltender for the future. In all seriousness, congrats on a good game.

[travel_dude]

The longer we run with JoeyMac as the starter, the more we run the risk of creating a Irving/McElhinney situation.  The coach has more confidence in the established goalie.  The team doesn't play well in front of the backup.  The backup gets fewer starts as the games become more important.

 

Ramo gets the first start of the year.  He gets shelled with 39 shots, and loses it in SO.  The team didn't cover his butt.  JoeyMac play the 2nd of a b2b and gets the win with a good, but not great game.  Instead of going back to Ramo, and working your butt off to get him the win, they start JoeyMac.  Joey makes some decent saves, but the team fails to help him close it out.  Next game, go with the "hot hand" again.  Joey gets some great saves again, and gets the win.

 

I love to see the team winning at the start of the season for a change.  We always had the slow Iggy starts, and the Kipper not at the top of his form, and the backup not capable of winning more than 1/3 games.  We are proving the talking heads wrong.  What worries me is that we are starting down that road again; looking at results and thinking that winning is the only important thing.  In a rebuild you look for any positives, but you don't forsake the issues you need to solve; developing a goalie with a longer shelf life, evaluating all the prospects in your system, improving FO, special teams and defensive coverage.

 

Starting Joey is good in the short term, but doesn't solve the issue in nets.  Continuing to start him just delays the problem, and make it harder to solve down the road. Maybe I just overreact, but I want more than an "insurance policy" as a long term replacement to Kipper.

[Wreckening]

JMac had a great game. I will freely admit that. Should he have gotten the start? I still say no. Ramo was signed to be the starter even though management would probably deny it. This is supposed to be a rebuild and a time to see what you have as a team. JMac is a known commodity, Ramo really isn't. JMac will probably be gone by the trade deadline (my prediction), Ramo was signed to a 2 yr contract. My worry is this is going to shake Ramo's confidence and his play will suffer.

I think now Hartley has no choice but to go with the hot hand next game which is unfortunate for Ramo. Don't get me wrong, I'm loving the wins and points they're getting but I think the wrong goalie was played tonight.

[jjgallow]

IMHO, Ramo is a known commodity too, in that he's sucked at the NHL level.  And at the AHL level

 

I know there's flaws in what I've just said.  But I wish people could just be happy for JMac and stop dreaming that Ramo will be part of a future he'll never be part of. 

 

As soon as we're talking rebuild, we're talking Gillies, Ortio, and Brossoit.   Yeah, we gotta wait.   That's how goalie development rolls.

 

 

I don't care what we signed Ramo for, or how smart or stupid that decision was.  We're here, we're now, and Jmac is winning.

 

Jmac is our now, and our future is Gillies, Ortio, and Brossoit.

[conundrumed]

I'm in the "why play Ramo?" camp.

Go with the hot hand, it's a long year. Don't treat 5 games as giving up on Ramo. That's silly.

Mic's running with it, what kind of message are you sending him to change up now?

Ramo gets some "watch" time. Win/Win situation.

Roll with what's working until it doesn't.

[travel_dude]

IMHO, Ramo is a known commodity too, in that he's sucked at the NHL level.  And at the AHL level

 

I know there's flaws in what I've just said.  But I wish people could just be happy for JMac and stop dreaming that Ramo will be part of a future he'll never be part of. 

 

As soon as we're talking rebuild, we're talking Gillies, Ortio, and Brossoit.   Yeah, we gotta wait.   That's how goalie development rolls.

 

 

I don't care what we signed Ramo for, or how smart or stupid that decision was.  We're here, we're now, and Jmac is winning.

 

Jmac is our now, and our future is Gillies, Ortio, and Brossoit.

 

You are kind of ignoring the obvious.  Berra is in the plans for the Flames in at least the short-term.  Goalies take time to develop, and Ortio is the only one that is nearing the typical age as a NHL starter.  Gillies could have another amazing year (or 3) and stay in college until he is done.  That is too far away to not have Ramo or Berra (or some other option) step up. 

 

Unless Ortio steps up and grabs the spotlight, now or next year, you will see Ramo/Berra or replacement as the starter for the next few years.  Brossoit is still too yound and unrefined.  JoeMac will (most likely) not be here next year; we can't be rebuilding without taking care of the situation in nets.

 

JoeMac has not played more than 20 games in most of his career.  He is a great bet as a backup; he will play his butt off when he gets the chance.  Does he have it in him for 40-60 games this year?  I doubt it, but it's still possible.  Will he play 40 games or more?

50/50 on that.  Coach will play him when he is hot or not.

 

I have no issue with him winning games for us, and starting when he is hot, but the rebuild is going to be longer than 1 year, so lets figure out what we have past this season.

[jjgallow]

You are kind of ignoring the obvious.  

 

You made some good points in your post, but in terms of "obvious", I think we have to at least recognize that JMac has played a big part in giving us a winning record, and at times has been spectacular.   He is also the only NHL -proven goalie we have.  A backup, yes.  But a backup for contenders and Stanley cup champions.  And, at times, a successful starter for some very dodgy NHL teams.

 

While I recognize the valid points you are making, I would not consider them obvious, but rather quite speculative.   In particular, you are making an assumption that JMac is like some kind of battery that will "run out of juice" if played more than, say, 10 games.

 

In reality, he's at an age that a lot of goalies just start to enter their prime, and may very well be better than he ever was.  He's been a starter for some bad NHL teams, and he's been a backup for some incredible NHL teams, filling on back-to-back nights, never really having in from of him at their most defensively conscious.

 

He has played as many as 49 NHL games in a season, and did just fine.  I don't think any goaltender his age should play more than 60 games.   But to think that he will wear out, is not all obvious, but highly imaginative.

 

It's fairly clear that many on here just "WANT" Ramo to be the starter, because they do.  And I get that, fine.   But we should be happy that we have Jmac.

 

Instead of saying "Jmac is finding success and helping us win, BUT... Ramo Ramo Ramo Berra",

 

Can we just say:  "Jmac is finding success and helping us win, Woo!"   ?

[lordxan]

The longer we run with JoeyMac as the starter, the more we run the risk of creating a Irving/McElhinney situation.  The coach has more confidence in the established goalie.  The team doesn't play well in front of the backup.  The backup gets fewer starts as the games become more important.

 

Ramo gets the first start of the year.  He gets shelled with 39 shots, and loses it in SO.  The team didn't cover his butt.  JoeyMac play the 2nd of a b2b and gets the win with a good, but not great game.  Instead of going back to Ramo, and working your butt off to get him the win, they start JoeyMac.  Joey makes some decent saves, but the team fails to help him close it out.  Next game, go with the "hot hand" again.  Joey gets some great saves again, and gets the win.

 

I love to see the team winning at the start of the season for a change.  We always had the slow Iggy starts, and the Kipper not at the top of his form, and the backup not capable of winning more than 1/3 games.  We are proving the talking heads wrong.  What worries me is that we are starting down that road again; looking at results and thinking that winning is the only important thing.  In a rebuild you look for any positives, but you don't forsake the issues you need to solve; developing a goalie with a longer shelf life, evaluating all the prospects in your system, improving FO, special teams and defensive coverage.

 

Starting Joey is good in the short term, but doesn't solve the issue in nets.  Continuing to start him just delays the problem, and make it harder to solve down the road. Maybe I just overreact, but I want more than an "insurance policy" as a long term replacement to Kipper.

This above, 110% agree!

 

Now for the JMac discussion, he's a safe steady predictable goalie.  Here in lies the problem with him as the starter, he possesses all the traits of a great backup, and that he is, a great back up and that's all.

 

Ramo on the other hand, has been showing, in the KHL level anyway, that he's an outstanding goalie which many have argued will not translate to the NHL.  I disagree, IF he ever gets a chance to play he'll start to dominate, not right away but after a month or so worth of playing he'll adjust just fine and take over as a starter.

 

Having said this, I have been a huge fan of bringing in even more youth, and not just in goal, would like to have seen room for Grandlund, Reinhart, Hanowski, Berra, Poirier, Horak, Ferland, Seloff and Wotherspoon.  And yes this would involve the loss of Butler, Cammy, Jackman, McGratton, Hudler, Smith.  But I firmly believe the overall returns in terms of wins and losses would be much higher than they are with the current roster. 

 

Though, may whine about needing vets to teach the kids but there is still Galli, D. Jones Glen X and Stemper up front and Wides and Gio on the back end so why keep all the vets mentioned above?

[The_Argus]

I'm in the "why play Ramo?" camp.

Go with the hot hand, it's a long year. Don't treat 5 games as giving up on Ramo. That's silly.

Mic's running with it, what kind of message are you sending him to change up now?

Ramo gets some "watch" time. Win/Win situation.

Roll with what's working until it doesn't.

 

Totally agree. I don't know why people are getting so worked up over not playing Ramo. Mac has been playing good, and most important, getting us points. He had a great game against Montreal, so he deserves the start against Jersey.

 

There's a reason he's a journeyman goalie, though. He's going to come back down to Earth eventually (probably sooner rather than later), and when he does, Ramo will get his chance. And if Ramo can put a string of good games together, then I expect Hartley will keep riding him. At the very latest, I expect Ramo will get his chance during our back-to-back the week after next.