Realistic (and unrealistic) Trades - 2024 Edition

[sak22]

6 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Well, I think we were specific in what we wanted back.  Perhaps we got less than we should have, but the conditional pick may still be a thing.  The funny thing is that any of the teams that didn't get Tanev are out (COL, TOR, TBL).  EDM is the exception, but that was never going to happen.

 

Come the end of the playoffs, 30 teams will wonder if they have the right #1 goalie going forward.  Some are under extreme pressure to actually win a round in the playoffs, while others were undone by just okay goaltending.  Teams that barely missed making the playoffs would be interested, assuming they haven't resolved it yet, or in the right genesis of their team to compete now.

30 is a stretch, and I still don't think the NHL has forgotten about Hill, meaning a lot of teams capped out will still try finding someone who can do it on the cheap as opposed to someone the league knows hasn't on an expensive deal, and having one that can choose where he goes also drops the price.  Everyone is saying GMs jobs are on the line if they don't fix their goalies, could be true, but GM's never get other jobs when they make stupid trades.  Sorry it will take a lot more convincing to get me to believe a guy who was untradeable last offseason, who only had a great 3 month stretch and was often injured at 34 will have GM's ready to overbid for his services, and a guy who's last playoff series had an .852 will be viewed as a savior for teams who've had poor playoff goaltending.

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, sak22 said:

30 is a stretch, and I still don't think the NHL has forgotten about Hill, meaning a lot of teams capped out will still try finding someone who can do it on the cheap as opposed to someone the league knows hasn't on an expensive deal, and having one that can choose where he goes also drops the price.  Everyone is saying GMs jobs are on the line if they don't fix their goalies, could be true, but GM's never get other jobs when they make stupid trades.  Sorry it will take a lot more convincing to get me to believe a guy who was untradeable last offseason, who only had a great 3 month stretch and was often injured at 34 will have GM's ready to overbid for his services, and a guy who's last playoff series had an .852 will be viewed as a savior for teams who've had poor playoff goaltending.

 

30 teams will have either lost in the playoffs or have missed it.  Some are set in nets, but will still question if they have the right guy.  Like I said, not all will want to change.  Saying a guy that would have retained salary to be untradeable is kinda odd.  At $3M, how many starters are available that have history of playing 50+ games.

[sak22]

28 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

30 teams will have either lost in the playoffs or have missed it.  Some are set in nets, but will still question if they have the right guy.  Like I said, not all will want to change.  Saying a guy that would have retained salary to be untradeable is kinda odd.  At $3M, how many starters are available that have history of playing 50+ games.

A year ago I said, but do I think the team would've retained 50% on 3 years?  Not sure but leaning towards no.  50% retention last year on Kevin Hayes got a 6th round pick, Kevin Hayes still scored over 50 points, Markstrom was statistically one of the worst goalies last year and widely seen around here as the main reason the team missed the playoffs (I'm sure you have over 3,500 posts from last season complaining about him).  So even with retention a year ago I don't think you get teams begging for him, I don't think retention this year gets what people expect, I don't view retention moves the needle from a 2nd to a 1st, just might add another mid-late round pick.

[travel_dude]

18 minutes ago, sak22 said:

A year ago I said, but do I think the team would've retained 50% on 3 years?  Not sure but leaning towards no.  50% retention last year on Kevin Hayes got a 6th round pick, Kevin Hayes still scored over 50 points, Markstrom was statistically one of the worst goalies last year and widely seen around here as the main reason the team missed the playoffs (I'm sure you have over 3,500 posts from last season complaining about him).  So even with retention a year ago I don't think you get teams begging for him, I don't think retention this year gets what people expect, I don't view retention moves the needle from a 2nd to a 1st, just might add another mid-late round pick.

 

Well, unless the "reports" were false, NJ seemed to be willing to trade a ton for a goalie you describe.  Was it close to 50%?  Not sure, as it fizzled out.  The retention only moves the needle to take in cap ceiling teams.  LA sure could have used JM this playoffs, no?  For every post complaining about him, there were posts about being hung out to dry.  

 

Anyway, not suggesting he is done here, but I think the writing is on the wall that he will be traded.  We didn't get back roster players in trades as such.  If anything, we may move out an additional one or two players.  

[sak22]

30 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Well, unless the "reports" were false, NJ seemed to be willing to trade a ton for a goalie you describe.  Was it close to 50%?  Not sure, as it fizzled out.  The retention only moves the needle to take in cap ceiling teams.  LA sure could have used JM this playoffs, no?  For every post complaining about him, there were posts about being hung out to dry.  

 

Anyway, not suggesting he is done here, but I think the writing is on the wall that he will be traded.  We didn't get back roster players in trades as such.  If anything, we may move out an additional one or two players.  

Reports were all over the place, and people seem to always run with the low credibility ones.  I never recall anything credible that didn't have Holtz as the main piece, I've heard if a first was ever on the table a deal would've been done.  I'm not saying he won't or can't be traded this offseason I think he is done in Calgary, all I've ever been saying is I don't think we should expect a return too exciting, reasons being A) age, b) consistency and contract, c) NMC, d) the goalie trade market in general, every year there are a lot of teams that missed the playoffs or lost in the playoffs with sub par goaltending and every year teams don't overspend in the trade market to fix it.

[Thebrewcrew]

Not sure Markstrom was ever going to return a 1st. But I certainly wouldn't expect it now. Teams are in their scoutig meetings. The closer you get to the draft, the harder it is to get picks. Teams now attach names and faces to picks, now that they know when they're picking. 

 

I think the Markstrom return could be something like two 2nd's or a 2nd and 3rd.

 

If it was to LA something like the 2025 2nd, 2026 3rd and Kaliyev for Markstrom.

 

Would actually prefer 25 and 26 picks at this point anyway. The Flames have enough 2024 picks.

[The_People1]

2 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Not sure Markstrom was ever going to return a 1st. But I certainly wouldn't expect it now. Teams are in their scoutig meetings. The closer you get to the draft, the harder it is to get picks. Teams now attach names and faces to picks, now that they know when they're picking. 

 

I think the Markstrom return could be something like two 2nd's or a 2nd and 3rd.

 

If it was to LA something like the 2025 2nd, 2026 3rd and Kaliyev for Markstrom.

 

Would actually prefer 25 and 26 picks at this point anyway. The Flames have enough 2024 picks.

 

Ya the worst time to acquire picks is on the draft floor.  Just imagine how difficult it would be to acquire the Flames #9.  It would have to be a deal that blows us out of the stratosphere.

[Thebrewcrew]

6 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya the worst time to acquire picks is on the draft floor.  Just imagine how difficult it would be to acquire the Flames #9.  It would have to be a deal that blows us out of the stratosphere.

The Toffoli deal was the best example of it. Conroy said he wanted a 1st, but nobody was gonna do it. Looking back, Sharangovich was more valuable than a 1st.

[Thebrewcrew]

Was kicking this one around in my head.

 

VAN may not be able to afford Hronek. He's an RFA that is a year away from UFA. Career high 40pts this year. Kinda settled in as a 40pt guy the past few years. 

 

As we saw in the playoffs VAN needs wingers.

 

Would you trade Sharangovich for Hronek?

 

It gives the Flames three legitimately good RHD. Weegar is a bit like Brodie and can play LD effectively. 

 

I really like Sharangovich, but I like at as RHD are really hard to find. Scoring wingers are much easier to acquire. Regardless of if the Flames are going to be good or not, they need a better blueline. If they are gonna trot out Hanley/Pachal/Miromanov on the same night, they may ruin Wolf. Give him a chance by surrounding him with NHL caliber D.

[robrob74]

43 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya the worst time to acquire picks is on the draft floor.  Just imagine how difficult it would be to acquire the Flames #9.  It would have to be a deal that blows us out of the stratosphere.

Probably a next years pick and not this years'

 

GM's are short term thinkers and so next years picks aren't worth as much as immediate. 

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

Probably a next years pick and not this years'

 

GM's are short term thinkers and so next years picks aren't worth as much as immediate. 

 

Yes it would have to be next year's 1st.  Too expensive to add a pick this year.

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Was kicking this one around in my head.

 

VAN may not be able to afford Hronek. He's an RFA that is a year away from UFA. Career high 40pts this year. Kinda settled in as a 40pt guy the past few years. 

 

As we saw in the playoffs VAN needs wingers.

 

Would you trade Sharangovich for Hronek?

 

It gives the Flames three legitimately good RHD. Weegar is a bit like Brodie and can play LD effectively. 

 

I really like Sharangovich, but I like at as RHD are really hard to find. Scoring wingers are much easier to acquire. Regardless of if the Flames are going to be good or not, they need a better blueline. If they are gonna trot out Hanley/Pachal/Miromanov on the same night, they may ruin Wolf. Give him a chance by surrounding him with NHL caliber D.

 

Hronek had Hanifin-like numbers... And has coveted RHS.  So are we talking $7.35-mil x 8-years on an extension?  I don't think we should because we don't know how well Hronek would fit here.  Untested in Calgary.  We don't have a Hughes for him to partner with to inflate his stats either.

 

Also, my preference is to be NOT competitive the next season or two.  Just run Hanley/Pascal/Miromanov.  Slowly graduate D to the NHL and see what the rookies are made of.

[MP5029]

So recent rumours have Necas in Car linked to Cgy…he’s an RFA so that is usually a costly contract and or costs assets.

 

he’s listed at 25 yrs, 6’’2 ish and 180 ish as a RW that can play Ctr but scouting reports are that he’s kinda soft along the boards, but plays a run and gun style that may

work with Huska system.

 

im kinda on the fence with this rumour, so thought I’d get some thoughts from other flame fans.

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, MP5029 said:

So recent rumours have Necas in Car linked to Cgy…he’s an RFA so that is usually a costly contract and or costs assets.

 

he’s listed at 25 yrs, 6’’2 ish and 180 ish as a RW that can play Ctr but scouting reports are that he’s kinda soft along the boards, but plays a run and gun style that may

work with Huska system.

 

im kinda on the fence with this rumour, so thought I’d get some thoughts from other flame fans.

He was discussed a bit on the previous page (pg 80).

[conundrumed]

10 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Would you trade Sharangovich for Hronek?

No.

Don't want him at all. The Wings traded him at his peak. He went from being a total liability to putting up points to hide the liability on D. Nobody was upset about trading him. He'll score a good contract and go back to being a total liability.

It's quite telling that a team into the nuts and bolts of a rebuild decided Hronek's style of play doesn't jibe with their future.

He's a shrinking violet defensively and will disappear when the game gets hard. Hanifin is a LOT better than Hronek. He came out really strong for Detroit last season, so raised a lot of hopes. Then the shrinking violet started showing up, and he's afraid to get hurt so doesn't want to impose on anyone.

Stick with big Russians. Maybe Poirier and Bruce can roll in a year or 2 and play that puck-moving roll better than Hronek without opting out of playing hard D when necessary.

I have zero interest on spending new-found cap on that type of player.

 

[cross16]

30 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

No.

Don't want him at all. The Wings traded him at his peak. He went from being a total liability to putting up points to hide the liability on D. Nobody was upset about trading him. He'll score a good contract and go back to being a total liability.

It's quite telling that a team into the nuts and bolts of a rebuild decided Hronek's style of play doesn't jibe with their future.

He's a shrinking violet defensively and will disappear when the game gets hard. Hanifin is a LOT better than Hronek. He came out really strong for Detroit last season, so raised a lot of hopes. Then the shrinking violet started showing up, and he's afraid to get hurt so doesn't want to impose on anyone.

Stick with big Russians. Maybe Poirier and Bruce can roll in a year or 2 and play that puck-moving roll better than Hronek without opting out of playing hard D when necessary.

I have zero interest on spending new-found cap on that type of player.

 

 

I get it's what the Flames are going to try and do but IMO the worse type of acquisition to try and make is targeting that 25-28 year old age group players who are about to get paid. First question should always be "why isn't their team signing them ?". Once in a while you might get a winner but I think far more frequently if that team doesn't want to sign them there is a good reason. Think you wind up with bad contracts in that segment more then you pick up good players. 

 

Hronek and Necas would be a similar type of acquisition for me and i'm not a big fan of either. 

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

I get it's what the Flames are going to try and do but IMO the worse type of acquisition to try and make is targeting that 25-28 year old age group players who are about to get paid. First question should always be "why isn't their team signing them ?". Once in a while you might get a winner but I think far more frequently if that team doesn't want to sign them there is a good reason. Think you wind up with bad contracts in that segment more then you pick up good players. 

 

Hronek and Necas would be a similar type of acquisition for me and i'm not a big fan of either. 

I agree. It isn't time to spend like a drunken sailor. Things always pop up for teams that have the cap. It takes patience and really good scouting. One draft and trying to get every potential decent player won't do it.

I know everyone wants a quick turnaround, but can't do that. Just like playing, you have to let the game come to you. You can't force it.

[conundrumed]

I should add, I do not get, at all, the willingness to trade Sharangovich. I'd have done Toffoli for Sharangovich straight across, frankly. I was taken aback by the negativity at the time.

"But conundrumed, what will it take to extend him beyond next year"?

It doesn't matter. He came in, started cold trying to find his way, potted you 30. While trying to progress in playing a sound 200' game.

Aaaand he pots you 30 under those circumstances.

The kid wanted opportunity, he got it. Rough start, but that's typical. Different for Toffoli. Aged vet will always be given peachy spots on new rosters to succeed. Huge difference.

So he's exceeded expectations. We don't even know the ceiling. Is he 40 next year? Toying with 50?

We don't know.

Stop trading the guy. He could be a monster. How far was Toffoli's stats ahead of him in no time? He came on strong, and may come on stronger.

Give the guy a chance and stop worrying about 2025's money without knowing where the cap's at.

[JTech780]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I get it's what the Flames are going to try and do but IMO the worse type of acquisition to try and make is targeting that 25-28 year old age group players who are about to get paid. First question should always be "why isn't their team signing them ?". Once in a while you might get a winner but I think far more frequently if that team doesn't want to sign them there is a good reason. Think you wind up with bad contracts in that segment more then you pick up good players. 

 

Hronek and Necas would be a similar type of acquisition for me and i'm not a big fan of either. 

 

I would tend agree, but I will throw this out there, Carolina has a history of bailing on guys early and not wanting to pay them. Best example is Hanifin and Lindholm. They were playing hard ball with Aho till he signed the offer sheet with Montreal and forced their hand. So I do wonder where that puts Necas, because I do think he is a very good player. It also sounds like they are wanting to try and re-sign Guentzel so that will take a fair chunk or their remaining cap, they have to sign Jarvis long term as well, and I would think that they would like to re-sign Skjei since they have already told Pesce that they aren't re-signing him either. 

 

Necas is coming off a $3mill prove it deal in which he had 28 goals and 71 points in year 1 and 24 goals and 53 points in year 2. He will most certainly be looking for a raise, but I can't see him being able to garner a massive raise. I would think somehwere in the range of $5mill and $6mill.

 

I think the biggest question in regards to Necas is, can he play center? If the Flames pro scouts and analytics department say yes, then he checks a lot of boxes for this team. If the answer is no and he is just a RW than, I would still have interest but it drastically change my perspective of what I would be willing to pay. 

 

I will say this team lacks high end speed up and down the lineup and Necas was 3rd in the NHL this year with 49 22 mph+ bursts, only behind MacKinnon with a rediculous 118 and McDavid with 66. Necas also has the fastest max speed recorded in the playoffs at 23.84 mph. 

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I get it's what the Flames are going to try and do but IMO the worse type of acquisition to try and make is targeting that 25-28 year old age group players who are about to get paid. First question should always be "why isn't their team signing them ?". Once in a while you might get a winner but I think far more frequently if that team doesn't want to sign them there is a good reason. Think you wind up with bad contracts in that segment more then you pick up good players. 

 

Hronek and Necas would be a similar type of acquisition for me and i'm not a big fan of either. 

 

That's why I'm not a fan of extending Sharongovich, Kuzmenko, Mange, etc.  those are not core players.  They are support players.  Pump up their stats on their contract years and sell to the highest bidder at the TDL.  This is how small market teams need to conduct business.  Buy low sell high.  Only lock up core super stars.

[travel_dude]

27 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

That's why I'm not a fan of extending Sharongovich, Kuzmenko, Mange, etc.  those are not core players.  They are support players.  Pump up their stats on their contract years and sell to the highest bidder at the TDL.  This is how small market teams need to conduct business.  Buy low sell high.  Only lock up core super stars.

 

We don't have the play drivers and you want to trade support players?  I'm fine with Mange being traded because he is not consistent playing with consistent lines.  He plays big but is small against big teams.  

 

Sharky and Kuz are players we have so few of; snipers.  You prefer to have a bunch of Backlund's that can't hit the net?  The roster stinks a bit, but mostly because we have too many of the same type of players.  Zary and Pospisil are good and you might be able to build around them.  You probably need a Backlund/Coleman pair to use for defending and transition.  Huberdeau looks lost a lot of nights, but I think he is thinking too much and not playing in the moment.  Have set plays where you loft it to the net and a guy goes there.  

 

The D are frustrating because they can all shoot but rarely do it on the PP.  

 

Anyway, just thinking we need play drivers.  

[jjgallow]

37 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

That's why I'm not a fan of extending Sharongovich, Kuzmenko, Mange, etc.  those are not core players.  They are support players.  Pump up their stats on their contract years and sell to the highest bidder at the TDL.  This is how small market teams need to conduct business.  Buy low sell high.  Only lock up core super stars.

 

I agree with this and most of the convo that lead to it.

 

I'd just take it a bit further,

 

I don't think anyone over the age of 22 should be seen as a core player, other than in a mentoring role or as a future role within the larger organisation.  Obviously definitions dependant, but in terms of who is for sale and who isn't....

 

I think Conor Zary is right on the fence.  lol.   He ain't gonna be young in our next cup run.

[cross16]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

 

I would tend agree, but I will throw this out there, Carolina has a history of bailing on guys early and not wanting to pay them. Best example is Hanifin and Lindholm. They were playing hard ball with Aho till he signed the offer sheet with Montreal and forced their hand. So I do wonder where that puts Necas, because I do think he is a very good player. It also sounds like they are wanting to try and re-sign Guentzel so that will take a fair chunk or their remaining cap, they have to sign Jarvis long term as well, and I would think that they would like to re-sign Skjei since they have already told Pesce that they aren't re-signing him either. 

 

Necas is coming off a $3mill prove it deal in which he had 28 goals and 71 points in year 1 and 24 goals and 53 points in year 2. He will most certainly be looking for a raise, but I can't see him being able to garner a massive raise. I would think somehwere in the range of $5mill and $6mill.

 

I think the biggest question in regards to Necas is, can he play center? If the Flames pro scouts and analytics department say yes, then he checks a lot of boxes for this team. If the answer is no and he is just a RW than, I would still have interest but it drastically change my perspective of what I would be willing to pay. 

 

I will say this team lacks high end speed up and down the lineup and Necas was 3rd in the NHL this year with 49 22 mph+ bursts, only behind MacKinnon with a rediculous 118 and McDavid with 66. Necas also has the fastest max speed recorded in the playoffs at 23.84 mph. 

 

I agree with some of this and ultimately if you can find a market inefficiency it's great. If another team is just cheap then for sure take advantage of it. 

 

I don't think I'd put Carolina in that bucket though I actually think Carolina is the model the Flames should follow. I don't think they bailed on Lindholm/Hanifin too early they used an excessive of assets to target someone they deemed superior and I don't think they were wrong. I'd call that trade a win/win for both clubs. Yes they played hardball but it was a pretty good result at the end of the day. 

 

I agree with some of the theory here and agree Necas has some positive attributes but still comes down to "why isn't' Carolina paying him then" and personally I don't think the answer makes it make sense for me. Think he's gonna get more $ and term then he's worth. 

[cross16]

For me Kuzmenko is going to be the test of whether or not the philosophy of the Flames organization is changing.  If you are truly committed to a retool with the plans of winning a cup then you shouldn't be looking to sign players as they are turn 30 to multi year deals, Conroy has mentioned this. Perhaps you can get him on a 2 year deal or less but normally guys like that want term. 

 

The rebuttal to this is well he has a ton of skill, can score 40 and was great on the PP (although i would point out I don't think it's accident that despite this the Flames still weren't good and Vancouver got better without him). All true and if the goal is to make sure you turn this around as fast as possible then you need to retain players like Kuzmenko. He really only makes sense to retain if your goal is to win more in the short term and likely at the expense of long term. 

 

I want to see him traded personally but putting that aside I think it's a good litmus test for this org to see how they will handle him. 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

I should add, I do not get, at all, the willingness to trade Sharangovich. I'd have done Toffoli for Sharangovich straight across, frankly. I was taken aback by the negativity at the time.

"But conundrumed, what will it take to extend him beyond next year"?

It doesn't matter. He came in, started cold trying to find his way, potted you 30. While trying to progress in playing a sound 200' game.

Aaaand he pots you 30 under those circumstances.

The kid wanted opportunity, he got it. Rough start, but that's typical. Different for Toffoli. Aged vet will always be given peachy spots on new rosters to succeed. Huge difference.

So he's exceeded expectations. We don't even know the ceiling. Is he 40 next year? Toying with 50?

We don't know.

Stop trading the guy. He could be a monster. How far was Toffoli's stats ahead of him in no time? He came on strong, and may come on stronger.

Give the guy a chance and stop worrying about 2025's money without knowing where the cap's at.

it only depends on whether he wants to stay beyond the current contract.