2023 Offseason

[travel_dude]

43 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Not to me. I don't think getting signed is the concern. His worry is probably more where, how much, does he want term or wait for the cap to rise? He shouldn't be having a, say, Ritchie level of concern. He's much better than them and provides a fair bit more. You can look at Kubalik. His 1 timer is an absolute missile so he can score. But Suter is a much, much better player. The odd time Detroit was fully healthy last year, Kubalik was the healthy scratch, it would never be Suter.

Suter would play Kubalik's natural position if it came to that. You'd never scratch Suter. Nobody would understand that.lol

I thought he was just another, "Kane propped up tour stats" guy when the D signed him. Was I wrong.

If we sign him, everyone will give it the "whatever" like Wings fans did, until they actually see what he brings. Definitely never the guy that will hurt your roster. Playing all 3 F positions effectively is a testament to how well he understands roles. It's the opposite of say, moving Dube away from RW. He just doesn't seem as effective, right? Suter does it seamlessly, you don't notice any difference at all.

I'm thinking Suter is really good value at $3 per and see where it goes from there, is there term etc etc.

In the end, I fully expect Ronni to be the 3C in 2 years. Perhaps he signs an AHL try-out with the Wranglers following his Tappara season and we get his ELC fired up starting nest season. I'm pretty excited that he could make our roster at ELC money in time. Hopefully he's at camp this year but I'm unsure how it works with Liiga. He'd turn some heads for sure, as I laugh at where Flames prospect rankings have him. He's easily in the Top 5 for me. Top 3 more likely while everyone claims to understand ceilings while being silly about it.

 

I was just saying that the market seems to have dried up a bit.  He may well be fielding offers, which he should, but as the summer goes on the money available to teams dries up.  Of the teams best positioned to sign him, most are in the rebuild category.  DET looks like they could today, but are they able to and ice a full roster?  

 

I don't rely on insiders, but I wonder what he is weighing out when there is little mention of him.  I guess they only ever talk about the big names.  Should he sign here?  For sure, perfect age for this team.  Maybe we can then move on from Backlund and stop rewarding character only.

[conundrumed]

Just now, travel_dude said:

 

I was just saying that the market seems to have dried up a bit.  He may well be fielding offers, which he should, but as the summer goes on the money available to teams dries up.  Of the teams best positioned to sign him, most are in the rebuild category.  DET looks like they could today, but are they able to and ice a full roster?  

 

I don't rely on insiders, but I wonder what he is weighing out when there is little mention of him.  I guess they only ever talk about the big names.  Should he sign here?  For sure, perfect age for this team.  Maybe we can then move on from Backlund and stop rewarding character only.

Detroit's over-staffed and Suter would eat up playing time from Veleno and they really like Veleno. And adding Kostin and Fischer is an attempt to add grit and size. So Suter isn't a player that could get any form of term with Kasper, Soderblom and Mazur all trying to break down the door as early as this year. You'll see new faces in the D this year and next. Suter's a good player, just can't give him a spot when they may have to even create spots already this year. Can't leave guys in the A if they don't belong there. They're in major flux this year and next when you're also adding Albert Johansson, Wallinder and Edvinsson to the list. And adding Compher is like adding Lindholm-lite. C & RW. Because Kasper is going to want that 2C spot, and Ladd is a solid 3C. And then there is still Veleno. They just have way too much to juggle already so Suter just creates more problems. They need to open spots for prospects. Expect Perron and Fabbri to be moved this year also. Both solid players.

As far as a full roster:

DeBrincat-Larkin-Perron

Fabbri-Compher-Raymond

Berggren-Ladd-Sprong

Kostin-Veleno-Fischer

Most wingers can play either side, Fabbri can also play C. Combinations are endless.

Definitely a full roster with 3 solid F prospects pushing the envelope.

[The_People1]

18 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

The middle class is getting squeezed out by the top earners.

If he was being sought after, you would think he would be signed by now.

 

Supply and demand.  Star players are rare.  Mid-tiers are dime a dozen.  In fact, the gap between star and mid-tiers is much bigger than the gap between mid-tiers and low-end or young and developing players. 

 

Matthews should demand $20-mil-per or else hit UFA next summer.

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Supply and demand.  Star players are rare.  Mid-tiers are dime a dozen.  In fact, the gap between star and mid-tiers is much bigger than the gap between mid-tiers and low-end or young and developing players. 

 

Matthews should demand $20-mil-per or else hit UFA next summer.

He can't. The max any player can get is 20% of cap. Shout out to @cross16 that I knew that off of the top of my head!

[robrob74]

For those who pictured Dumba as an option. He's apparently signing in Arizona for one year. 
 

I would sure like to get going on these trades. This is why playing the nice team nice to players is not good. We wait until there are virtually no options, waiting ourselves away from possible replacement. I get I'm a bit over reactionary, and it just feels like this is the way the Flames are... but it's getting annoying, just as surely some of your probably think I am, haha.

[conundrumed]

9 hours ago, robrob74 said:

For those who pictured Dumba as an option. He's apparently signing in Arizona for one year. 
 

I would sure like to get going on these trades. This is why playing the nice team nice to players is not good. We wait until there are virtually no options, waiting ourselves away from possible replacement. I get I'm a bit over reactionary, and it just feels like this is the way the Flames are... but it's getting annoying, just as surely some of your probably think I am, haha.

It may be best to let someone else try Dumba on a 1 year. I wouldn't have minded him due to Weegar protecting him. The concern is that his game/body is declining. When he's peak, I love his game, but his past 2 seasons have been fairly off-peak in consistency.

Trades are like playing to use an analogy. When you get impatient and start forcing your game to make it work, the wheels can really start coming off. When you just let the game be what it is and let it come to you everything starts to fit better. You can't change the character of the game so you just stop worrying about that and adjust your approach to fit, rather than push things that just aren't there. Then you're playing damage control. 

Always play like it's 0-0.lol

You can push it, then it's either going to be 1-0 or 0-1. Let the other team play risk and wait for a mistake.

Maybe teams are saying, "he wants out, so we'll give you a 2nd and a B prospect".

There is a line where you have to say, "you know what, I'll just let him play it out and you can fight 30 other teams for him in UFA".

Regardless of what Conroy says about letting guys, "walk for free"(ing up money), there definitely has to be a line.

Let the game come to you.

[travel_dude]

9 hours ago, conundrumed said:

It may be best to let someone else try Dumba on a 1 year. I wouldn't have minded him due to Weegar protecting him. The concern is that his game/body is declining. When he's peak, I love his game, but his past 2 seasons have been fairly off-peak in consistency.

Trades are like playing to use an analogy. When you get impatient and start forcing your game to make it work, the wheels can really start coming off. When you just let the game be what it is and let it come to you everything starts to fit better. You can't change the character of the game so you just stop worrying about that and adjust your approach to fit, rather than push things that just aren't there. Then you're playing damage control. 

Always play like it's 0-0.lol

You can push it, then it's either going to be 1-0 or 0-1. Let the other team play risk and wait for a mistake.

Maybe teams are saying, "he wants out, so we'll give you a 2nd and a B prospect".

There is a line where you have to say, "you know what, I'll just let him play it out and you can fight 30 other teams for him in UFA".

Regardless of what Conroy says about letting guys, "walk for free"(ing up money), there definitely has to be a line.

Let the game come to you.

 

ARI is doing what they do, sign a guy and trade him.  Not a bad idea, since you either can re-sign him or trade him.  They don't care if his body is still good or not, he's gone at TDL.

 

I have a problem with letting Hanifin walk.  It may free up $7M next year, but we lose a top 4D for nothing.  We could trade him for an expiring asset plus something and still come out better.  No way we re-sign him in the summer if he's already said he wants to go to the US.  

 

I'm not sure what the line is, but I think Karlsson got in the way.  There may be more of a market now.  

[robrob74]

46 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

ARI is doing what they do, sign a guy and trade him.  Not a bad idea, since you either can re-sign him or trade him.  They don't care if his body is still good or not, he's gone at TDL.

 

I have a problem with letting Hanifin walk.  It may free up $7M next year, but we lose a top 4D for nothing.  We could trade him for an expiring asset plus something and still come out better.  No way we re-sign him in the summer if he's already said he wants to go to the US.  

 

I'm not sure what the line is, but I think Karlsson got in the way.  There may be more of a market now.  

I mean, I think the Flames could get on the concept a bit more than they do. We seem to spend the draft picks more than we accumulate them. Of course it's a generalization statement, it could possibly be not as true. But the last how many drafts, we've had how many picks or lack of...?

We seem to give out PTO's a lot, I suppose we are too spent to the cap to give one years out and we'd end up being too close to the playoffs that we'd want to keep a player anyway. 

[travel_dude]

15 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I mean, I think the Flames could get on the concept a bit more than they do. We seem to spend the draft picks more than we accumulate them. Of course it's a generalization statement, it could possibly be not as true. But the last how many drafts, we've had how many picks or lack of...?

We seem to give out PTO's a lot, I suppose we are too spent to the cap to give one years out and we'd end up being too close to the playoffs that we'd want to keep a player anyway. 

 

Versteeg is the only PTO that comes to mind that made sense.  But I think we went 2 years with him.

It's a function of spending to the cap every year.

Last year we overspent and traded Monahan and a 1st.

But that was a long term deal.

We have no room to sign anyone.

As much as I liked the idea of signing Dumba, it was something you do after.

After you trade Backlund and Hanifin.

After you decide to trade Tanev and sign a replacement.

I think there is a longer runway with Dumba.

 

So, we have a GM that didn't trade down at the draft.

We picked in order of our picks.

This is also a transition year, so I doubt a 1st is traded unless it's a homerun deal.

We may look for a 1st, but I doubt we really want to or should trade Lindy.

Others are fair game.

Set up the team for longer term success.

Create cap room knowing you can sign a UFA for less.

Keep the term short.

Can always re-sign them mid year if they work out.

Or trade them if you are missing the playoffs.

[conundrumed]

Oof. I know Detroit well enough that I would have told him, "don't even Blockchaining think about it man". Downtown Detroit is notorious for ignoring signal lights. Treat everything like a stop sign.

He came back Feb. 16th. The video clip is April 14th. Wtf are we doing? He shouldn't have been playing. Why do we play risk with top players?

https://detroithockeynow.com/2023/08/07/flames-defenseman-recalls-near-death-experience-in-detroit-before-red-wings-game/

[robrob74]

6 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Oof. I know Detroit well enough that I would have told him, "don't even Blockchaining think about it man". Downtown Detroit is notorious for ignoring signal lights. Treat everything like a stop sign.

He came back Feb. 16th. The video clip is April 14th. Wtf are we doing? He shouldn't have been playing. Why do we play risk with top players?

https://detroithockeynow.com/2023/08/07/flames-defenseman-recalls-near-death-experience-in-detroit-before-red-wings-game/

yup! Exactly! Ive been wondering about this for years. It seems like we want to win the least amount of  man games  lost to injury award that doesn't actually exist. 
 

our #1 center for the first five years of his career, let's let him play through Satoshi Nakamoto where they notice he can't walk or even tie his shoes or laces. 
 

Should be illegal...

[travel_dude]

24 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

yup! Exactly! Ive been wondering about this for years. It seems like we want to win the least amount of  man games  lost to injury award that doesn't actually exist. 
 

our #1 center for the first five years of his career, let's let him play through Satoshi Nakamoto where they notice he can't walk or even tie his shoes or laces. 
 

Should be illegal...

 

Talk to the players that cover it up.  If your player isn't complaining about something, how do the trainers know?  Monahan confided in Johnny, but not the trainers.  May have asked for a cortizone shot, but I would suggest that half the players do at some point.  

 

I would say that we are no different than other teams about missing injuries.  Other teams have "lucky" injuries that allow them to LTIR players without the NHL saying squat about it.  Because we follow the rules, our players come back perhaps too soon.  

 

 

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

Talk to the players that cover it up.  If your player isn't complaining about something, how do the trainers know?  Monahan confided in Johnny, but not the trainers.  May have asked for a cortizone shot, but I would suggest that half the players do at some point.  

 

I would say that we are no different than other teams about missing injuries.  Other teams have "lucky" injuries that allow them to LTIR players without the NHL saying squat about it.  Because we follow the rules, our players come back perhaps too soon.  

 

 

is it really following the rules? Or actually better practice? Or more a luxury we don't have because someone like Monahan believed he's the only chance the Flames have? 
 

I dunno, in think it's horrible. Happens too often on this team. I see it differently. We have one or two injuries and other teams have 300 man games missed...

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Talk to the players that cover it up.  If your player isn't complaining about something, how do the trainers know?  Monahan confided in Johnny, but not the trainers.  May have asked for a cortizone shot, but I would suggest that half the players do at some point.  

 

I would say that we are no different than other teams about missing injuries.  Other teams have "lucky" injuries that allow them to LTIR players without the NHL saying squat about it.  Because we follow the rules, our players come back perhaps too soon.  

 

 

Would team doctors not have been all over the Detroit doctors? Kinda hard for Andersson to hide.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

is it really following the rules? Or actually better practice? Or more a luxury we don't have because someone like Monahan believed he's the only chance the Flames have? 
 

I dunno, in think it's horrible. Happens too often on this team. I see it differently. We have one or two injuries and other teams have 300 man games missed...

 

We play a different game than some of the softies that try to play tough.

I should say played.  Tkachuk gets injured in the playoffs by acting tough and paying for it.

EDM loses guys because they think they are tough.  

Other teams have unfortunate injuries.

 

I don't see our team docs doing anything to cover up an injury.

Monahan loved the game so much he was willing to play hurt.

He may have thought he was ensuring he would get dropped down the roster.

Maybe he just wanted to play.

 

Tell me how Murray goes from playing in the playoffs to being injured LT.

Or how some players stay on LTIR right up to the point that cap doesn't matter.

Lupul.  It's known that some teams cheat.  All it takes is the rules being lax enough to allow it.

GM - don't give me a guy that is 90%, I want 100.  Unless cap doesn't matter.

 

Anyway, just saying we follow the rules.  Other teams don't when they can get away with it.

Our docs say cleared to play.  

[conundrumed]

11 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Our docs say cleared to play.  

Do we have docs? Once (Mony) is a mistake, twice (Andersson) is a trend. Does everyone stand around like the 3D's again and say, "we didn't know"?

Yeah. Sure you didn't. If that's true, that's an even bigger problem. Apparently it hasn't been addressed.

[robrob74]

I think the difference might be that some of those teams that can take advantage of LTIR or have players recovering from injury completely is that they can afford to allow them to heal completely by having replacement players who can fill the spot for moments, whereas the Flames have not afforded that luxury by their lack of organization depth. Tanev was only shut down once we were nearly completely out of it.
 

i get it's a player decision, but would they decide to sit or play if they had someone who could adequately replace them and not hurt the team? 

[travel_dude]

34 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Do we have docs? Once (Mony) is a mistake, twice (Andersson) is a trend. Does everyone stand around like the 3D's again and say, "we didn't know"?

Yeah. Sure you didn't. If that's true, that's an even bigger problem. Apparently it hasn't been addressed.

 

We have a head doc and two other docs.

Plus 2 ortho surgeons.

 

I can't say whether Ras was healthy enough to play.  Did the DET docs say he should be off a month?

The LOC is for sure concerning.  But what metrics say that he should not be out there so soon?

Has to pass baseline tests.  Can't have dizziness for x days in a row.  I dunno.

Could they have kept him sidelined?  For sure, as there was no LTIR cap stuff involved.

 

[travel_dude]

Just now, robrob74 said:

I think the difference might be that some of those teams that can take advantage of LTIR or have players recovering from injury completely is that they can afford to allow them to heal completely by having replacement players who can fill the spot for moments, whereas the Flames have not afforded that luxury by their lack of organization depth. Tanev was only shut down once we were nearly completely out of it.
 

i get it's a player decision, but would they decide to sit or play if they had someone who could adequately replace them and not hurt the team? 

 

Kucherov had the luxury of being LTIR due to surgery before the season even started.  The rules say that if you are deemed healthy, you have to be back on the roster.  I find it odd that it took until the playoffs for that to happen, but easier to get around it by not playing a single game prior.  

 

It's speculation to suggest we are the one team doing it and ignoring long term risks.  Once you are deemed healthy, the player goes back on the roster , playing or not.  I also find it hard to believe that all other teams are following the cap rules when it happens.  A day comes when Yamamoto is due back on the roster, but there is no cap room.  Amazing how someone else gets placed on IR.  Mike Smith is so injured he can't play after they get Campbell signed, but healthy enough to play their last playoff game.  Just a couple examples.  

 

Anyway, I grow tired talking about this.  Have at er if you like.  

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Kucherov had the luxury of being LTIR due to surgery before the season even started.  The rules say that if you are deemed healthy, you have to be back on the roster.  I find it odd that it took until the playoffs for that to happen, but easier to get around it by not playing a single game prior.  

 

It's speculation to suggest we are the one team doing it and ignoring long term risks.  Once you are deemed healthy, the player goes back on the roster , playing or not.  I also find it hard to believe that all other teams are following the cap rules when it happens.  A day comes when Yamamoto is due back on the roster, but there is no cap room.  Amazing how someone else gets placed on IR.  Mike Smith is so injured he can't play after they get Campbell signed, but healthy enough to play their last playoff game.  Just a couple examples.  

 

Anyway, I grow tired talking about this.  Have at er if you like.  

I just want our guys to recover. I don't want them playing through injury and ruining their careers because of it. It's not about the LTIR for me. It's about getting away from the culture of playing through it. It isn't better for the team long term, as we see in the case of Monahan...
 

How many here loved Monahan? He is and was a gamer, he was mr clutch! He did so many things right. I get part of that love was that he was a "team guy," "a gamer," and that's amazing. But I find it as a romanticized version of hockey that borders on toxicity. And where is he now because of it? He is not on the top two lines scoring clutch anymore. 
 

While it is up to the players, I think I'd rather my guys be healthy long term and not praise for what they play through. Admirable? I don't fully see it that way. It also takes opportunity away from the farm players to get rewarded for their work. It can be selfish too.
 

I get many here won't agree with me, but for me, it's not about arguing about LTIR and the way other teams use it, but other teams might give space for healing and that's all I'm saying...

[conundrumed]

11 hours ago, robrob74 said:

I just want our guys to recover. I don't want them playing through injury and ruining their careers because of it. It's not about the LTIR for me. It's about getting away from the culture of playing through it. It isn't better for the team long term, as we see in the case of Monahan...
 

How many here loved Monahan? He is and was a gamer, he was mr clutch! He did so many things right. I get part of that love was that he was a "team guy," "a gamer," and that's amazing. But I find it as a romanticized version of hockey that borders on toxicity. And where is he now because of it? He is not on the top two lines scoring clutch anymore. 
 

While it is up to the players, I think I'd rather my guys be healthy long term and not praise for what they play through. Admirable? I don't fully see it that way. It also takes opportunity away from the farm players to get rewarded for their work. It can be selfish too.
 

I get many here won't agree with me, but for me, it's not about arguing about LTIR and the way other teams use it, but other teams might give space for healing and that's all I'm saying...

That's pretty much precisely what I'm saying. What atmosphere leads to an individual player feeling either: a.) they can't win without me or b.) I can't let them down regardless of my health.

Andersson saying to media a month after he's in the lineup that he's still feeling the effects and came back too early is a giant red flag for Flames mgmt.

I know guys play through injuries, but getting hit by a car is hardly a high ankle sprain. "In and out of consciousness", "my back is still bothering me" a month later. Sounds like it was a lot more than a little love tap. More like a whammo.

He woke up not even knowing where he was or what happened. "Yeah, he'll be fine in a week" doesn't sound anything like due diligence to me. I guess the games were too important to worry about any compounding effects of getting unexpectedly hit by a 9,000lbs machine. This is precisely how brain injuries happen. He's fortunate in that regard, I believe.

Him and Mony are squarely on mgmt, and mgmt is lying. Mony's teammates saying he could barely walk and mgmt saying, "we didn't know" is a total lark. They're clearly lying. Congratulations on making us worse in the short term, and destroying our top goal scorer in the long term.

Be better.

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, conundrumed said:

That's pretty much precisely what I'm saying. What atmosphere leads to an individual player feeling either: a.) they can't win without me or b.) I can't let them down regardless of my health.

Andersson saying to media a month after he's in the lineup that he's still feeling the effects and came back too early is a giant red flag for Flames mgmt.

I know guys play through injuries, but getting hit by a car is hardly a high ankle sprain. "In and out of consciousness", "my back is still bothering me" a month later. Sounds like it was a lot more than a little love tap. More like a whammo.

He woke up not even knowing where he was or what happened. "Yeah, he'll be fine in a week" doesn't sound anything like due diligence to me. I guess the games were too important to worry about any compounding effects of getting unexpectedly hit by a 9,000lbs machine. This is precisely how brain injuries happen. He's fortunate in that regard, I believe.

Him and Mony are squarely on mgmt, and mgmt is lying. Mony's teammates saying he could barely walk and mgmt saying, "we didn't know" is a total lark. They're clearly lying. Congratulations on making us worse in the short term, and destroying our top goal scorer in the long term.

Be better.

 

Worse was we had Bennett waiting on his chance to move up the depth charts but the team rather push a broken Monahan back into the lineup. 

[robrob74]

40 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Worse was we had Bennett waiting on his chance to move up the depth charts but the team rather push a broken Monahan back into the lineup. 

yup! When someone is labouring to walk as it was with Monahan and Monahan reportedly needed trainers to tie his skates, there is a problem.

[cberg]

51 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

yup! When someone is labouring to walk as it was with Monahan and Monahan reportedly needed trainers to tie his skates, there is a problem.

Yes, seems management is definitely the problem, but players accepting "playing through pain" isn't helping matters either.  Of course the flip side is fans getting down on players as "too soft" if they don't... The Flames have a long history, thru multiple coaches of not trusting young players and allowing them the time and positions to work through issues.  Many say the NHL is not a developmental league, fine, but that does't mean every young player arrives fully developed.  There has to be some leeway for growth, and short term pain to get the best results long-term.  I think this attitude may be one of the reasons why management seems to turn a blind eye to injuries because they have no faith/confidence/allowance for mistakes from younger guys.....

[jjgallow]

In the spirit of blaming as many people as possible, I'd just like to point out that we can go further than management and players.  lol.

 

I do often wonder where the union is for stuff like this.   Injuries, pain killers, cte, the draft age....  the union is somewhere between non-existent to inneffective.     But when it comes to $$$, they are on the ball.

 

Not sure how that gets fixed.  but it's a thing.