2022 Offseason

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, pikey7883 said:

I agree with everything you said. And like it has been mentioned 1000 times, I think based on who has been rumoured to be available, you have to give a hard look at Chychrun.

1. He is an upgrade on Hannifin

2. I believe someone else in our division makes a run at him, which also hurts us.

My idea would be to target Chychrun and Crouse for Hannifin, Vali, Zary, and Phillips and our 1st in 2024. 

hes  the only one that comes to mind for me as well..only downside is he has a modified NTC.. i cant see any player having AZ as an accepted destination right now 

[Thebrewcrew]

2 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

hes  the only one that comes to mind for me as well..only downside is he has a modified NTC.. i cant see any player having AZ as an accepted destination right now 

You’re probably right. 

 

It depends, every player is different though. The tax situation in Arizona is good, that appeals to certain people. Great place to live too.

[travel_dude]

24 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

This is fair. I actually think they are similar in a lot of ways. Both are elite skaters but both lack the sense/brain power to keep up with their skating. Hanifin is solid enough that you don't "need" to move him but I also don't get why people are so willing to make excuses for him. Hanifin has played this game for a long time and been in the NHL for a long time and at some point you have to recognize than when a player shows you the same limitations again and again it's not an experience thing. Again, this all being said I don't argue that the Flames should move him because I think they need a similar caliber of player (or an upgrade ideally) but I also don't think he is a must keep and I think we need to stop having these conversations about his ceiling. He's at his ceiling IMO. 

 

Kylington is a tough one for me because the eye test and analytics aren't lining up. I see a bunch of mistakes and holes in his game (and as I said I think his hockey sense will keep him from improving that much) but he keeps coming out so strongly analytically. I didn't love his playoffs and he still graded out as one of the Flames better dman so as much as I want to deal him for an upgrade it's tough. Flames need to get better in transition and get better with having more puck carries/puck moving dman so to move on from Kylington (who has that skill set) is challenging. 

 

IF it didn't sound like I was saying this, it's kinda what I was alluding to.  I'm not going to hang my hat on the playoffs and say this guy has to go.  That was wrong after the North Division season and is wrong today.  You either have to live with Hanifin or improve at the position.  

 

Kylington had taken steps this year.  He still has room for improvement, whether it's in the head remains to be seen.  Really only had one year where he was given some leeway to make mistakes and learn.  Other years it was mistake = bench.  Whether he puts it all together or not, who knows.  But he has some skills we need and if they can get some of his act cleaned up, then it's worth it.  I doubt he gets a huge raise, nor am I thinking he holds out for arbitration.  Don't insult him with $1.25M for one year.  

[sak22]

24 minutes ago, pikey7883 said:

I agree with everything you said. And like it has been mentioned 1000 times, I think based on who has been rumoured to be available, you have to give a hard look at Chychrun.

1. He is an upgrade on Hannifin

2. I believe someone else in our division makes a run at him, which also hurts us.

My idea would be to target Chychrun and Crouse for Hannifin, Vali, Zary, and Phillips and our 1st in 2024. 

2 of those pieces either need to make the Flames or are on waivers next year, I don't think they move any needles, Zary had an underwhelming season and Hanfin is older and on a worse contract, and 2024 doesn't have the same appeal as 2023.  I think plenty of teams can do better, if we want to make a big trade we need to look at the young pieces we don't want to move not the ones were okay with moving.  My thinking is a trade discussion for Chychrun begins with Wolf and 2023 1st and probably ends there because we really don't have enough good young pieces whereas teams like LA, Jersey, Detroit to name a few have plenty.

[cross16]

10 minutes ago, sak22 said:

2 of those pieces either need to make the Flames or are on waivers next year, I don't think they move any needles, Zary had an underwhelming season and Hanfin is older and on a worse contract, and 2024 doesn't have the same appeal as 2023.  I think plenty of teams can do better, if we want to make a big trade we need to look at the young pieces we don't want to move not the ones were okay with moving.  My thinking is a trade discussion for Chychrun begins with Wolf and 2023 1st and probably ends there because we really don't have enough good young pieces whereas teams like LA, Jersey, Detroit to name a few have plenty.

 

 

I agree. It's challenging to come up with anything that is semi reasonable because I just don't think the Chychrun pond is one the Flames can fish in. If you Arizona why are you moving him unless you get a blue chip prospect/young player in return? IMO the only prospect in the Flames system that is potentially in that conversation is Wolf. 

 

Hanifin only has 2 more years left on his deal so I don't think his value to Arizona is very high. Arizona would likely want to flip him so the argument really would be how much is Hanifin worth via trade if shopped around the league? I would think decent but I don't think you are hitting a home run trading Hanifin so again begs the question of what Arizona is going to gain. Going to flip your best asset for maybe 1 good qualify piece and then a bunch of stuff or maybe 2-3 good pieces?

 

Doesn't add up for me. 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

You’re probably right. 

 

It depends, every player is different though. The tax situation in Arizona is good, that appeals to certain people. Great place to live too.

And if you make a mistake on home ice only about 1000 - 1500 fans are going to notice.

[travel_dude]

4 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

And if you make a mistake on home ice only about 1000 - 1500 fans are going to notice.

 

Not sure if you are referring to Hanifin in this, but I understand your point.  Everyone sees Kylington falling down and the play turning into a chance.  With Hanifin, there is not as many blatantly obvious things.  He does a lot of things right.  He also does some subtle things that infuriate but are less obvious.  Something so simple as a puck along the boards.  An important cycle going on and you causally play it with your stick but it jumps on you.  It's a critical play and you play it like Sunday morning shinny.  You miss it, okay.  But you better be the guy back making up for it.

 

Maybe I'm being too hard on the guy, but I want to see responsibility.  For all the dumb plays the other guys make, you expect to see them doing what it takes to get it back.

[LouCifer]

I think it was bosn111 that pointed out Hanifin is ranked top 8 LD in the league? That’s worth something fellas. If there’s a trade to be had with ARZ for Chychrun directly, you look into it (Hanifin, Valimaki, plus). If not, maybe another team will give you what you need to get Chyc out of ARZ for Hanifin. Lots of ways to skin a  cat. 
 

What Dmen are out there that play similar to Tanev?

[Thebrewcrew]

I would stay away from the Chychrun sweepstakes. 

 

Say what you want about analytics, but this is a player that's far from an analytical darling. Last season he benefitted from some poor goaltending, scoring 18 on an expected goals in the 9's. Again, analytics aren't everything, but they are helpful, his value is gonna be inflated because he scored 18 as a D, but there were obviously extenuating circumstances that led to that.

 

I think whoever gives up four significant futures for him will end up with a sour taste in their mouth. I don't know that he's gonna be able to step-in on a team and be a top pair LD on a contender. This is a player that's played very little meaningful hockey as an NHLer.

 

I'm not trying to bury Chychrun here. I like his game, I've liked him since 2016, was even hoping CGY would consider him at 6th. I'm just not interested in trading a Pelletier/Wolf/Coranto, 1st+. 

[The_People1]

I'm okay trading both Hanifin and Kylington.  I'm of the belief we're seeing the best of both players and there's not much further these two can go.  IF I had to choose to keep one then I would go with Hanifin.  Kylington without Tanev is unplayable and completely lost.  Can't trust Kylington with any significant role on this team.

 

For those saying Kylington has room to grow, I don't agree.  He's the same age as Hanifin and Hanifin has accomplished so much more.  Acquiring a legit #1 LD and pushing Hanifin down to 2nd pair would yield much better results than extending Kylington to a 2nd pair role for the next 3 to 4 years.

 

Hanifin was/is a 2nd pair talent being challenged to #1 D duties and failed.  That only means he should play 2nd pair and not kicked off the team entirely.  $4.95-mil is fair money for a 2nd pairing Dman.

[Thebrewcrew]

20 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Hanifin was/is a 2nd pair talent being challenged to #1 D duties and failed.  That only means he should play 2nd pair and not kicked off the team entirely.  $4.95-mil is fair money for a 2nd pairing Dman.

Is it though?

 

Darnell Nurse is about to make 9.25. He’s not significantly better than Hanifin.

 

Trouba makes 8. He hits, but takes a lot of penalties 

 

The D market has went crazy. Getting Hanifin for less than 5 is a good deal. He is what he is, a reliable top 4 option. He wouldn’t be easily replaced.

[The_People1]

17 hours ago, conundrumed said:

How to replace him is a conversation worth having, but I kinda hope we do replace him. Get another LD Swede.lol

 

Rasmus Dahlin?

 

I feel like if we offer Tkachuk to BUF, then I believe no one on BUF is untouchable.  It will be Dahlin+ of course...

 

+ Cozens?  Take a chance that Cozens can emerge as a 2nd line Center?  RHS C, Sutter likes that. 

+ Krebs?  Same as Cozens, could be our new 2nd line Center?  LHS C.

+ Quinn?  Challenge him to play top line RW to replace Tkachuk?

 

Would we have to add to get any of these three?  Add Hanifin?

[The_People1]

26 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Is it though?

 

Darnell Nurse is about to make 9.25. He’s not significantly better than Hanifin.

 

Trouba makes 8. He hits, but takes a lot of penalties 

 

The D market has went crazy. Getting Hanifin for less than 5 is a good deal. He is what he is, a reliable top 4 option. He wouldn’t be easily replaced.

 

It's going to be hard to replace Hanifin for the same money as Hanifin isn't overpaid or anything.  And that's what I'm getting at.  He's getting 2nd pair money as a 2nd pair talent.  It's fair.  It's actually nothing to complain about.

 

If we can move him in a package for an upgrade then we should consider it because we need a legit #1 D.

[redfire11]

Hanifin was/is a 2nd pair talent being challenged to #1 D duties and failed.  That only means he should play 2nd pair and not kicked off the team entirely.  $4.95-mil is fair money for a 2nd pairing Dman.

 

This is exactly it!! If Hanifin had played the year with Tanev Hanifin would not be in this conversation and a different whipping boy would need to be found.   Decent player and price for a 2nd line D.

[The_People1]

35 minutes ago, redfire11 said:

Hanifin was/is a 2nd pair talent being challenged to #1 D duties and failed.  That only means he should play 2nd pair and not kicked off the team entirely.  $4.95-mil is fair money for a 2nd pairing Dman.

 

This is exactly it!! If Hanifin had played the year with Tanev Hanifin would not be in this conversation and a different whipping boy would need to be found.   Decent player and price for a 2nd line D.

 

Yups.  A Hanifin-Tanev pair next season sounds really good.  We just need to get that #1 LD.

[conundrumed]

Just for converation.

Is packaging Hanifin & Toffoli viable to get cap space?

I know it depends on replacing them.

If Pelletier moves in, Dube to RW, is Toffoli redundant?

Hanifin & Toffoli for Chychrun? ARI still needs NHL players.

Another add not named Wolf?

[MP5029]

Mm I was reading an article on Monahan today, seems he was a key pice to a Anderson deal With CBL a few years ago  and Lindholm deal with ANH this past TDL before his other hip ended his season.

 

i don’t see a fit with CBL now

they seem very committed to Rosi and i

thinkmthey have a few decent young prospect Ctr’s….besides, I’m not sure what they have to top/higher end D or

D prospects, which I think  is a key return for moving Monahan and maybe someone else. Again also I just down see CBL either needing a Ctr or having what we want/need…though open to suggestions from the forum here!?

 

as for ANH, I can see a fit cause they have their top 2 or 3 Ctrs are FA’s and are 35+ I could see a definite fit/need for ANH…maybe add in Hanifin and scoop up a Young D or two? I’m not

even sure they have any…maybe they would let their 2020 first round D go for Monahan and  Hanifin? Or something? 

 

now I’m one of few that think Monahan will rebound for two reasons 1. Final year of contract 2. I think he’s healthy for a full season (it’s not in common for things like

hips and shoulders to have both blow out of one side is injured the other side usually takes up the slack often causing that one to go too) which is why I think he’s healthy and should slot in at #2 Ctr and have an awesome 2022-23 year…I feel moving Backlund is the best option to clear space and work on building a strong 3rd and 4th line…maybe even move Lucic if we are lucky….anyway this is what i

think should be the best option for Cgy this off season…again there is a huge should/if with this move that hinges 100% on Monahan.

 

having said this, if they can sign Tachuck, Manj and Gaudrau…having Monahan’s back and showing some faith and commitment to him for 2022/2023 will also help with resigning Lindholm and maybe also with attracting FA’s or better still having trades blocked by NTC/NMC’s…so although it’s a 6mil+ risk…it could be a worth while one even if it turns out to be flop…back end could buy some added respect from Players internally and are puns the NHL.

[MP5029]

8 hours ago, redfire11 said:

Hanifin was/is a 2nd pair talent being challenged to #1 D duties and failed.  That only means he should play 2nd pair and not kicked off the team entirely.  $4.95-mil is fair money for a 2nd pairing Dman.

 

This is exactly it!! If Hanifin had played the year with Tanev Hanifin would not be in this conversation and a different whipping boy would need to be found.   Decent player and price for a 2nd line D.

I have to agree with this…except I don’t see Hanifin as much as the whipping boy as much as the best option to package in a trade to get that #1 D…

 

having said that, I agree he’s a very solid 2nd pair D man…capable of short fill in on top line duty if needed, definitely fair value for his contact and one of those guys that would be hard to replace on the 2nd pair (probably just as important as the top pair) 

[MP5029]

11 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I would stay away from the Chychrun sweepstakes. 

 

Say what you want about analytics, but this is a player that's far from an analytical darling. Last season he benefitted from some poor goaltending, scoring 18 on an expected goals in the 9's. Again, analytics aren't everything, but they are helpful, his value is gonna be inflated because he scored 18 as a D, but there were obviously extenuating circumstances that led to that.

 

I think whoever gives up four significant futures for him will end up with a sour taste in their mouth. I don't know that he's gonna be able to step-in on a team and be a top pair LD on a contender. This is a player that's played very little meaningful hockey as an NHLer.

 

I'm not trying to bury Chychrun here. I like his game, I've liked him since 2016, was even hoping CGY would consider him at 6th. I'm just not interested in trading a Pelletier/Wolf/Coranto, 1st+. 

100%
 

also, I tend to lean towards a Cdn or

SWE (they seem to like canada) over USA…my reason see the question surrounding Gaudreau and Tachuck…that USA hometown thing is a thing…that and taxes for USA players…and to be honest you can’t blame players for that it’s only natural to want to play close to your hometown 

[Thebrewcrew]

2 hours ago, MP5029 said:

100%
 

also, I tend to lean towards a Cdn or

SWE (they seem to like canada) over USA…my reason see the question surrounding Gaudreau and Tachuck…that USA hometown thing is a thing…that and taxes for USA players…and to be honest you can’t blame players for that it’s only natural to want to play close to your hometown 

For what it's worth Chychrun is Canadian.

 

There is a little bit of truth to the American players in Canada thing, but I think that it's largely overblown, especially because of Adam Fox.

 

UFA would be the big one. Blake Coleman was the first American UFA to sign a significant deal with a Canadian team in a number of years. But to be fair, how many premium UFA's, regardless of nationality, sign with a Canadian team? Tavares is the only big one in the last number of years. So it's not just an American thing. There are a lot of Canadians that don't even want to play in Canada. Taxes, weather, travel in the Western conference all play a factor

 

I have to give Gaudreau a lot of credit. He was a fantastic college player, every team in the league would have been after him if he elected to wait until free agency. He didn't, he signed with Calgary and gave the Flames eight great seasons. If he leaves it will be disappointing, but I understand 

[robrob74]

19 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Is it though?

 

Darnell Nurse is about to make 9.25. He’s not significantly better than Hanifin.

 

Trouba makes 8. He hits, but takes a lot of penalties 

 

The D market has went crazy. Getting Hanifin for less than 5 is a good deal. He is what he is, a reliable top 4 option. He wouldn’t be easily replaced.

you say that like Nurse deserves 9m per year. Tough to compare when nurse is significantly overpriced by at least 4.75M

[Thebrewcrew]

4 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

you say that like Nurse deserves 9m per year. Tough to compare when nurse is significantly overpriced by at least 4.75M

I do not think Nurse is worth that at all. 

 

Nurse is maybe a little bit better, but not by that much. We should be happy that BT has his entire top 4 locked in for under 5, given the way the D market has went.

 

Hanifin isn't perfect but he's a good top 4 D. The Flames could trade him, but they aren't replacing him for the 4.9 he currently makes. 

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I do not think Nurse is worth that at all. 

 

Nurse is maybe a little bit better, but not by that much. We should be happy that BT has his entire top 4 locked in for under 5, given the way the D market has went.

 

Hanifin isn't perfect but he's a good top 4 D. The Flames could trade him, but they aren't replacing him for the 4.9 he currently makes. 

I agree. I just wish we could land another top4 D. Injuries are the name of the game in the playoffs and in the end it’s which team had the better depth through a long run. We lost our best defender. I also feel the team quit playing a team D style, and maybe that’s what Tanev is good at, settling the team into that. 
 

i see Hanifin as a 2nd pair who can jump up in a pinch. 
 

i don’t mind him, I just think the lack of a D could be the fact we didn’t draft many up until drafting Valamaki. I just think it’s a part of  BT’s learning curve, now understanding the need for D has started drafting them more regularly? Maybe I’m wrong. Fox would have been great, but would we still have needed a stud defender akin to another Tanev? 
 

Reality is, we have the ability to have a good PP, but lack the focus to details to achieve it. Either the plan is wrong or they execute it poorly at times. 
 

i think we need another passing forward, and that could help the depth scoring. I think when the depth isn’t going it makes it much tougher on the top line. So Unless Pastranak is an assist guy. I don’t know if he is a good target. I’d move Lindholm to the left top slot and go one-timers there, if we keep Toffoli, have him on PP2. 
 

maybe Wolf is a guy to deal if teams thinks he is closer than we do. We need to fill holes and don’t have a lot of capital to do that. Could Vladar transition to the starter after Markstrom? Or could we use him in a deal for a 3rd liner that can step into a 2nd line role? 
 

I don’t want to trade Wolf. But could it be a situation where we had a chance to get something good for Valamaki but kept him no matter what and then get nothing for a poor product? I get it was injuries though.

i trade:

 

Dube

Mangiapane

Tkachuk

 

i will get lambasted for those suggestions. I like Mangiapane, but I also see him as someone who goes cold when it matters, similarly to Tkachuk. Tkachuk folds when the attention in the media falls on him, and so can’t deal with expectations.

[Thebrewcrew]

8 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I agree. I just wish we could land another top4 D. Injuries are the name of the game in the playoffs and in the end it’s which team had the better depth through a long run. We lost our best defender. I also feel the team quit playing a team D style, and maybe that’s what Tanev is good at, settling the team into that. 
 

i see Hanifin as a 2nd pair who can jump up in a pinch. 
 

i don’t mind him, I just think the lack of a D could be the fact we didn’t draft many up until drafting Valamaki. I just think it’s a part of  BT’s learning curve, now understanding the need for D has started drafting them more regularly? Maybe I’m wrong. Fox would have been great, but would we still have needed a stud defender akin to another Tanev? 
 

Reality is, we have the ability to have a good PP, but lack the focus to details to achieve it. Either the plan is wrong or they execute it poorly at times. 
 

i think we need another passing forward, and that could help the depth scoring. I think when the depth isn’t going it makes it much tougher on the top line. So Unless Pastranak is an assist guy. I don’t know if he is a good target. I’d move Lindholm to the left top slot and go one-timers there, if we keep Toffoli, have him on PP2. 
 

maybe Wolf is a guy to deal if teams thinks he is closer than we do. We need to fill holes and don’t have a lot of capital to do that. Could Vladar transition to the starter after Markstrom? Or could we use him in a deal for a 3rd liner that can step into a 2nd line role? 
 

I don’t want to trade Wolf. But could it be a situation where we had a chance to get something good for Valamaki but kept him no matter what and then get nothing for a poor product? I get it was injuries though.

i trade:

 

Dube

Mangiapane

Tkachuk

 

i will get lambasted for those suggestions. I like Mangiapane, but I also see him as someone who goes cold when it matters, similarly to Tkachuk. Tkachuk folds when the attention in the media falls on him, and so can’t deal with expectations.

For sure, you can never have enough good D. 

 

In the Edmonton series, the Oilers were the better team, but it was a lot closer than a 4-1 series. I think McDavid got in Calgary's head. They didn't resemble the team we saw all season.

 

Regarding the D, defensive depth is an organizational weakness right now. They haven't drafted any impactful D since 2015 when they got Andersson and Kylington. Valimaki was a good pick in 2017. In hindsight, it would have been nice if they took Josh Norris or Robert Thomas, but Valimaki was absolutely worthy of that pick. The knee injury really hurt him. The biggest mistake Treliving has made IMO is not protecting the 1st in the Hamonic trade, the Flames would have a  stud RHD in Dobson if they did. 

 

Vladar is making league minimum this season, which is tremendous value for a very solid young goalie. I think the Flames keep him for one more season and then move to Wolf as the backup. Vladar could be an attractive trade piece that could recoup some picks the Flames have moved recently. 

 

I really think Tkachuk's future is linked to Gaudreau. If Johnny leaves, I think you offer Tkachuk a longterm deal. If he won't take it, you have to explore a trade. If the Flames lose Gaudreau for nothing, they absolutely cannot afford Tkachuk leaving for nothing. I think Johnny's decision dictates the Flames offseason

I'm a big Mangiapane fan, if he's asking for 6mill, I'd see what the trade market is. If you can get a 1st+, that's pretty good considering he was a homegrown 6th rounder.

With Dube, I think they keep him with the hopes he takes a step next year and scores 20. He was close to that mark this year

 

 

[travel_dude]

29 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I do not think Nurse is worth that at all. 

 

Nurse is maybe a little bit better, but not by that much. We should be happy that BT has his entire top 4 locked in for under 5, given the way the D market has went.

 

Hanifin isn't perfect but he's a good top 4 D. The Flames could trade him, but they aren't replacing him for the 4.9 he currently makes. 

I'm not sure how you can make that assumption.  Ras is making less than that.

Are you able to get a #1 for that?  Not unless they are still on a bridge contract or ELC.

Or through a trade.

But Hanifin is not a #1.

 

So the bigger question is whether you can get a replacement for Hamifin for the same type of money.

Hopefully one that is closer to a #1.  

We may not have the bait to get Chychrun, but he's closer to a #1.

I get the arguments against him too, but he's a good player on a bad team.

 

Anyway, we have bigger fish to fry.  If we were able to land a top 2D without bleeding too much, we shouldn't consider Hanifin to be untradeable.  Have to get the RFA and JH signed.  Maybe the allure of Dube, Hanifin and Zary is enough to get Chyvhrun.  Losing Dube is a loss of an asset, not the loss of a key player from last year.  We clear cap just from that move.