Johnny Gaudreau

[sak22]

6 minutes ago, 89Again said:

Agreed, They likely had him last summer and played hard ball.  How do you let a star of this age go into his last year?  
 

 

How many people saw 115 points out of him this year.  I would say most didn't, its hard to negotiate because the team doesn't want to pay him as a 99 point player when his 2 most recent seasons were more as a 70 point player, as a player you probably believe you are the 99 point player.  Can't really write a blank cheque there because if they give him 9 million and he plays last season like the previous 2 we are criticizing signing him long term.

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, sak22 said:

How many people saw 115 points out of him this year.  I would say most didn't, its hard to negotiate because the team doesn't want to pay him as a 99 point player when his 2 most recent seasons were more as a 70 point player, as a player you probably believe you are the 99 point player.  Can't really write a blank cheque there because if they give him 9 million and he plays last season like the previous 2 we are criticizing signing him long term.

 

i always said get him away from Monahan as his C and he'll put up numbers. I called for Lindholm but then we had no RW and it was ludicrous to suggest we use him as a C or play Johnny away from Monahan. I always wondered what people saw in Monahan. To me he only ever had a shot. 

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

Johnny Gaudreau with a letter to Calgary and Flames fans

 

 

 

Oof that was kind of cringe to read.  This is just a guy who is trying to make everybody happy all the time.  Too nice to say 'no'... And thus finally forced to said 'no' in the 11th hour.

 

...if rumours were true, he even tried to pull the whole 11th hour counter-offer thing praying the Flames wouldn't take it so that he didn't have to be the bad guy... And he got an ear full from Murray Edwards afterwards allegedly.

 

This is a lesson for everyone.  If it's 'no' then just say 'no'.  Canadians are too nice sometimes to a detriment thinking 'no' is too rude and stuff when it's actually courteous.  I know Gaudreau is not Canadian but he needs to be more direct so he doesn't waste people's time.

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Oof that was kind of cringe to read.  This is just a guy who is trying to make everybody happy all the time.  Too nice to say 'no'... And thus finally forced to said 'no' in the 11th hour.

 

...if rumours were true, he even tried to pull the whole 11th hour counter-offer thing praying the Flames wouldn't take it so that he didn't have to be the bad guy... And he got an ear full from Murray Edwards afterwards allegedly.

 

This is a lesson for everyone.  If it's 'no' then just say 'no'.  Canadians are too nice sometimes to a detriment thinking 'no' is too rude and stuff when it's actually courteous.  I know Gaudreau is not Canadian but he needs to be more direct so he doesn't waste people's time.

 

i am with TMac on this one. BT just needed a firm deadline before the draft and had plan B waiting, meaning, if Jersey's trade option rumour is true, it could have made a quick difference if BT would go there. 
 

i agree with you,

 

but I think BT was trying to be too nice. 
 

but it sounds like they should have gone 9 -9.5 last summer instead of 8... I dunno what Johnny would have signed for.

[cross16]

6 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

That is the more frustrating part.  I don't hold a grudge to the player.

The owners and BT got frustrated with the end of the process.

But it was their gamble to somehow save money.

That's the part I don't get.

Let's say they offered something as high as $8M last summer and it was rejected.

How does a guy in his contract year put up as bad numbers?

He saw his game start to turn around with Tkachuk and Sutter behind the wheel.

He knew he would have better leverage if he waited.

 

Maybe calling for BT's head is extreme.

He would have had to get ownership approval to max out an offer last summer.

Or at least I think he would have had to.

 

 

Its a fair question and it's obviously what jumps out when you read that. It matches what Steinberg has been reporting that he thought they were close on a deal last summer. As I've said, I still view this as an organizational failure because if you were not trading Johnny that means you saw him as part of your core and you need to lock up your core, or trade him. They had time to better review this but I do wonder about that too. What were the trade offers? Was ownership ok with him being traded?

 

At the same time I've heard rumors that Johnny was asking for 9 mill last summer. Now today that feels like a no brainer but if had had of signed for 8 X 9 last summer how would everyone have felt about that given it was 2 seasons in a row since he had been close to a PPG player. 

 

End of the day it sucks to lose him but with the way it played out I blame the Flames less and less, especially given they got a deal done and only had Gaudreau and his agent change their mind. But it's really hard for me to get mad or point fingers when there is so much to this we don't know. 

[travel_dude]

15 minutes ago, sak22 said:

How many people saw 115 points out of him this year.  I would say most didn't, its hard to negotiate because the team doesn't want to pay him as a 99 point player when his 2 most recent seasons were more as a 70 point player, as a player you probably believe you are the 99 point player.  Can't really write a blank cheque there because if they give him 9 million and he plays last season like the previous 2 we are criticizing signing him long term.

 

Hmmm, he played the final 20 games with 23 points last year.

I think it was pretty obvious that he was back.

He was to the point of being the new franchis player.

No Gio to compare to.

 

He has led the team in scoring every year but two; one was Tkachuk beating him by 3 points, the other was his rookie year.  Unlike almost every team in the league, we did not have a player making big bucks.  Any 8 year deal was going to be costly.  Not worth an extra million?  What were they expecting?  At the worst, he would walk to the Flyers as a UFA because we wouldn't pay for another 70 point season.  At best, we would have to pony up for a 99 point season where he has leverage.

[robrob74]

9 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

 

Its a fair question and it's obviously what jumps out when you read that. It matches what Steinberg has been reporting that he thought they were close on a deal last summer. As I've said, I still view this as an organizational failure because if you were not trading Johnny that means you saw him as part of your core and you need to lock up your core, or trade him. They had time to better review this but I do wonder about that too. What were the trade offers? Was ownership ok with him being traded?

 

At the same time I've heard rumors that Johnny was asking for 9 mill last summer. Now today that feels like a no brainer but if had had of signed for 8 X 9 last summer how would everyone have felt about that given it was 2 seasons in a row since he had been close to a PPG player. 

 

End of the day it sucks to lose him but with the way it played out I blame the Flames less and less, especially given they got a deal done and only had Gaudreau and his agent change their mind. But it's really hard for me to get mad or point fingers when there is so much to this we don't know. 

 

i see it same but different. All of it up to the deadline to sign. 
 

i think it would always have been a deadline choice. I get he might have signed last year. I also think he only just got married then or was engaged so it's a bit different than now. But the deadline to choose ultimately pushed Johnny to where he wanted. If BT have an earlier deadline the hard choice eases when it has to be made. 

[sak22]

7 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Hmmm, he played the final 20 games with 23 points last year.

I think it was pretty obvious that he was back.

He was to the point of being the new franchis player.

No Gio to compare to.

 

He has led the team in scoring every year but two; one was Tkachuk beating him by 3 points, the other was his rookie year.  Unlike almost every team in the league, we did not have a player making big bucks.  Any 8 year deal was going to be costly.  Not worth an extra million?  What were they expecting?  At the worst, he would walk to the Flyers as a UFA because we wouldn't pay for another 70 point season.  At best, we would have to pony up for a 99 point season where he has leverage.

Not unusual, he was known as a streaky player and that was a criticism many had of him like the 2019 season where he had an incredible first half with an average 2nd half.  For me it was never a case of questioning if he could score in bunches, I knew that in year one, but can he reduce the amount of times he goes on cold periods which he didn't really do until year 8.

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

 

Its a fair question and it's obviously what jumps out when you read that. It matches what Steinberg has been reporting that he thought they were close on a deal last summer. As I've said, I still view this as an organizational failure because if you were not trading Johnny that means you saw him as part of your core and you need to lock up your core, or trade him. They had time to better review this but I do wonder about that too. What were the trade offers? Was ownership ok with him being traded?

 

At the same time I've heard rumors that Johnny was asking for 9 mill last summer. Now today that feels like a no brainer but if had had of signed for 8 X 9 last summer how would everyone have felt about that given it was 2 seasons in a row since he had been close to a PPG player. 

 

End of the day it sucks to lose him but with the way it played out I blame the Flames less and less, especially given they got a deal done and only had Gaudreau and his agent change their mind. But it's really hard for me to get mad or point fingers when there is so much to this we don't know. 

 

I get that.  But at the end of the day, they banked entirely on him re-signing.  His play under Sutter was trending towards being more than a p/gp player.  He was going to have leverage.  Another relatively low scoring season wasn't going to make him cheaper, not for the risk involved.  He would probably walk to UFA just to have choices, over a $7M offer.

 

Maybe I am painting the owners with a bad brush, but it seems that BT would have preferred to get this deal done last summer, regardless of whether we think it was an overpay.  That way you can worry about the remaining RFA's and other parts in 2022.  $9M sets the bar for Tkachuk.  

 

But anyway, no point arguing over something that didn't happen.  

 

 

[cross16]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

 

i see it same but different. All of it up to the deadline to sign. 
 

i think it would always have been a deadline choice. I get he might have signed last year. I also think he only just got married then or was engaged so it's a bit different than now. But the deadline to choose ultimately pushed Johnny to where he wanted. If BT have an earlier deadline the hard choice eases when it has to be made. 

 

Personally i don't get this Flames should have put a deadline in place idea. There was a deadline in place so are we putting an artificial one in? What is the plan then if the agent blows past that deadline (which he should) and calls your bluff? Were you prepared to lose Gaudreau over an artificial deadline and then find out that had he been given a few more days he might have changed his mind?

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, sak22 said:

Not unusual, he was known as a streaky player and that was a criticism many had of him like the 2019 season where he had an incredible first half with an average 2nd half.  For me it was never a case of questioning if he could score in bunches, I knew that in year one, but can he reduce the amount of times he goes on cold periods which he didn't really do until year 8.

 

We have had useless coaches along the way.

Backlund as a winger.

Dube as the top RW.

Monahan as the top C, no matter what the results.

I was referring to a point in a season where we brought in a coach that had savy.

 

 

[tmac70]

15 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Oof that was kind of cringe to read.  This is just a guy who is trying to make everybody happy all the time.  Too nice to say 'no'... And thus finally forced to said 'no' in the 11th hour.

 

...if rumours were true, he even tried to pull the whole 11th hour counter-offer thing praying the Flames wouldn't take it so that he didn't have to be the bad guy... And he got an ear full from Murray Edwards afterwards allegedly.

 

This is a lesson for everyone.  If it's 'no' then just say 'no'.  Canadians are too nice sometimes to a detriment thinking 'no' is too rude and stuff when it's actually courteous.  I know Gaudreau is not Canadian but he needs to be more direct so he doesn't waste people's time.

The lesson part is what everyone should take out of this. Would JG have signed last summer it appears so, offer was low based on his previous numbers.  Secondly, and this is sales 101, the longer you give someone to make a decision historically they will talk themselves out of it, he was allowed to much time. No one was to know he would have a better year, but the security of his fathers health new wife and child  no covid made him a more grounded individual, that should have been noticed behind the scenes and should have prempted converations. The minute he and his wife got were having a baby your leverage was diminished. BT stayed true to his word and provide him the timeline on this, which we now know was a mistake.

 

Current day, the team invokes the arbitration to get an anwer from MT. What we have now is a player who had his best  year and has peaked his value. Historically and with the movement out of JG will regress 25-35% next year. MT best advantage and if his agent is any good will cash in now, and if he wants to leave get best of both worlds. Trevling has now taken and invoked a timeline for an anwser, lessons learned. MT is going to see the public back lash from JG and learn that its probaly in his best interest to allow the Flames the oppurtuinty to get a return.  If he wants to go, accomadate him and he can allow the Flames to get somthing in return, professional conduct, lessons learned. 

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Personally i don't get this Flames should have put a deadline in place idea. There was a deadline in place so are we putting an artificial one in? What is the plan then if the agent blows past that deadline (which he should) and calls your bluff? Were you prepared to lose Gaudreau over an artificial deadline and then find out that had he been given a few more days he might have changed his mind?

 

The only real deadline was last summer.  You sign him or you are playing a rental.

When it passed, JH decided to not continue to negotiate until the off-season.

That may not have been known when they failed to get a deal in place.

It has been his MO, though.

He signed his previous deal on the cusp of the season.

 

Anyway, I'm gonna stop posting about this.  It happened and we got burned.  Good luck to the player.  Hope we continue as a team that battles for the playoffs and has a new arena with a great fan and player experience.  The nosebleed sections in the Dome are too much for me.       

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

Current day, the team invokes the arbitration to get an anwer from MT. What we have now is a player who had his best  year and has peaked his value. Historically and with the movement out of JG will regress 25-35% next year. MT best advantage and if his agent is any good will cash in now, and if he wants to leave get best of both worlds. Trevling has now taken and invoked a timeline for an anwser, lessons learned. MT is going to see the public back lash from JG and learn that its probaly in his best interest to allow the Flames the oppurtuinty to get a return.  If he wants to go, accomadate him and he can allow the Flames to get somthing in return, professional conduct, lessons learned. 

 

Tkachuk kinda knows his best numbers are behind him on this team.  Going to arbitration on this team is loaded with risk to him.  It doesn't really matter if he is traded or not beforehand.  The new team will not offer him 8x10M.  They will take the arbitration ruling and work on re-signing him or trading him again.    

 

So, I think he will take an offer that is reasonable.  He gets to be the face of the franchise here.  They can even offer him the captain spot.  Sitting back, he could end up in a lesser team and end up being traded or going to FA and not getting the huge offers.

[tmac70]

12 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Personally i don't get this Flames should have put a deadline in place idea. There was a deadline in place so are we putting an artificial one in? What is the plan then if the agent blows past that deadline (which he should) and calls your bluff? Were you prepared to lose Gaudreau over an artificial deadline and then find out that had he been given a few more days he might have changed his mind?

There was a deadline for MT and the Flames have now changed it. Unless the CBA indicates that teams are not allowed to invoke deadlines, curfews or any policies other than those agreed to than I agree with you. If there is not, what is wrong with when players enter the orgainzation and are informed about polices, procedures and deadlines. IE you hit UFA status our poilcy is we need an answer at this specific time line, no answer will be taking as having no interest in moving forward with the organization and we shall conduct business in our best interest there after. If such poilicy was in place I don't think JG's decision is different, however it allows the orgainization time to adjust

[cross16]

6 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

There was a deadline for MT and the Flames have now changed it. Unless the CBA indicates that teams are not allowed to invoke deadlines, curfews or any policies other than those agreed to than I agree with you. If there is not, what is wrong with when players enter the orgainzation and are informed about polices, procedures and deadlines. IE you hit UFA status our poilcy is we need an answer at this specific time line, no answer will be taking as having no interest in moving forward with the organization and we shall conduct business in our best interest there after. If such poilicy was in place I don't think JG's decision is different, however it allows the orgainization time to adjust

 

There is a big difference between using tools available to you within the CBA and the organization choosing to have their own policy. The Flames are well within their right to set whatever deadlines and policy they want but it comes with risks. For example it was previously a policy of the Flames, early on in Treliving's tenure, that they would not grant NMCs. They since changed it because they were losing players. 

If the Flames want to put their own deadline in place then go ahead. What i'm pointing out though is you need to then be prepared for the potential risks that go along with that because after all the deadline is "fake". 

 

I also don't see why people think it would have changed where they sit today. 

[robrob74]

52 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Personally i don't get this Flames should have put a deadline in place idea. There was a deadline in place so are we putting an artificial one in? What is the plan then if the agent blows past that deadline (which he should) and calls your bluff? Were you prepared to lose Gaudreau over an artificial deadline and then find out that had he been given a few more days he might have changed his mind?

yes because the deadline in place was one that was not going to end well for the flames. 
 

plus if he imposed a deadline before the draft maybe they'd have a different plan? Maybe not. Maybe they wouldn't have dealt Tkachuk at the draft. 

[robrob74]

5 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

There is a big difference between using tools available to you within the CBA and the organization choosing to have their own policy. The Flames are well within their right to set whatever deadlines and policy they want but it comes with risks. For example it was previously a policy of the Flames, early on in Treliving's tenure, that they would not grant NMCs. They since changed it because they were losing players. 

If the Flames want to put their own deadline in place then go ahead. What i'm pointing out though is you need to then be prepared for the potential risks that go along with that because after all the deadline is "fake". 

 

I also don't see why people think it would have changed where they sit today. 

I'm not say Gaudreau would be here. At the end of the day, family won out. He even mentioned missing his grandpa's funeral because of travel... I said then that that could be a factor, and his dads health etc. sure he almost signed... either way, I'm just saying if he let the organization know, maybe they go draft differently, or it was last year and they trade him because they can't lose him for nothing, asset management.

[cross16]

36 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I'm not say Gaudreau would be here. At the end of the day, family won out. He even mentioned missing his grandpa's funeral because of travel... I said then that that could be a factor, and his dads health etc. sure he almost signed... either way, I'm just saying if he let the organization know, maybe they go draft differently, or it was last year and they trade him because they can't lose him for nothing, asset management.

 

If he made his decision then yes it would be very reasonable to expect Gaudreau to let the Flames know earlier. I happen to also think it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that Gaudrau likely was torn on this, saw it as a tough decision and took his time to make it. I don't' blame him for that but I see no reason why we should assume he made the decision earlier and not assume that there was a large part of him that wanted to be in Calgary. 

 

And while I could be wrong I just don't see how the Flames knowing pre draft changes anything. 

[travel_dude]

18 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I'm not say Gaudreau would be here. At the end of the day, family won out. He even mentioned missing his grandpa's funeral because of travel... I said then that that could be a factor, and his dads health etc. sure he almost signed... either way, I'm just saying if he let the organization know, maybe they go draft differently, or it was last year and they trade him because they can't lose him for nothing, asset management.

 

He had gone through the lockdown not being able to attend a funeral of his grandfather.  Like a lot of people in this country, he expected freedom to return.  Went to the Stampede last year thinking this was the start of the rest of his life.  Last fall, all that changed again.  An election fought during and about a pandemic.  Not quite lockdowns but limited mobility.  I wouldn't say that this impacted his decision last summer, but when we are looking again at a fall of potential lockdowns (in some way shape or form), he may have started to panic.  What if something happens and I can't fly to NJ.  What if my wife can't have people come to see her.  

 

We missed the window of opportunity.  It was last summer.  If we offered 9.5M as the starting offer this year, then maybe we didn't really understand the player.  Had we offered 10.5M initially, he may have signed right away or rejected it.  He had too much time to think about it.  Sometimes you have to go in with your final offer right away.  It may not have mattered.  But it may have.

[89Again]

I think both of those mattered.  He strikes me as genuine.  The team made mistakes and Johnny looked after Johnny.  I don’t think we would win a cup with Johnny as the center piece and therefore we may get some Karma on this one as that was a big offer.  Lindholm is a hell of a player and lets see what happens with Chucky, seems like management is on the ball on this one.

[tmac70]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

If he made his decision then yes it would be very reasonable to expect Gaudreau to let the Flames know earlier. I happen to also think it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that Gaudrau likely was torn on this, saw it as a tough decision and took his time to make it. I don't' blame him for that but I see no reason why we should assume he made the decision earlier and not assume that there was a large part of him that wanted to be in Calgary. 

 

And while I could be wrong I just don't see how the Flames knowing pre draft changes anything. 

It could have benefited both sides, even now with Matthew. I get JG was torn I have no doudt that he was, regardless when push came to shove he still would have made the same decision, as I said previously sales 101, give them space and they will talk themselves out of it. The Flames could have done what they are doing with Matthew or could have assited him with less pressure to go to a destination of his choice, maybe some form of a token assest. By doing this allows everyone that tjis will or could effect  more time to possibly move peices around before the draft and FA .  UFA deadline, 7 days before draft day would not have changed the end result or the decision but it could have prevented a lot of issues. 

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

If he made his decision then yes it would be very reasonable to expect Gaudreau to let the Flames know earlier. I happen to also think it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that Gaudrau likely was torn on this, saw it as a tough decision and took his time to make it. I don't' blame him for that but I see no reason why we should assume he made the decision earlier and not assume that there was a large part of him that wanted to be in Calgary. 

 

And while I could be wrong I just don't see how the Flames knowing pre draft changes anything. 

ya, but I also think regardless he's torn whether he needed to make the decision last year or by trade deadline, but the need to make a decision prompts his real desire to be home. I don't deny that he was torn. But if the flames got him to decide sooner He'd be more apt to choose. I think home would have been decided on sooner. We won't agree but I just think until a decision has to actually be made, he'd be torn and not have to decide until then. 
 

i agree it is his right to wait. It's his right to go UFA. It is BT's right to expect him to sign and go for a cup while Johnny is here. Ultimately, us who said he wanted to go closer to home, were  right because he ended up wanting to play closer to home.

[travel_dude]

27 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

ya, but I also think regardless he's torn whether he needed to make the decision last year or by trade deadline, but the need to make a decision prompts his real desire to be home. I don't deny that he was torn. But if the flames got him to decide sooner He'd be more apt to choose. I think home would have been decided on sooner. We won't agree but I just think until a decision has to actually be made, he'd be torn and not have to decide until then. 
 

i agree it is his right to wait. It's his right to go UFA. It is BT's right to expect him to sign and go for a cup while Johnny is here. Ultimately, us who said he wanted to go closer to home, were  right because he ended up wanting to play closer to home.

 

So, chalk that up to the Flames for not signing him last year.  They could have said that they needed a decision, but they didn't want to pressure him into a deal.  They chose to keep the offer lower.  Takes two to tango.  I felt it was a mistake to come in low this summer.  It didn't work last summer.

[sak22]

36 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

ya, but I also think regardless he's torn whether he needed to make the decision last year or by trade deadline, but the need to make a decision prompts his real desire to be home. I don't deny that he was torn. But if the flames got him to decide sooner He'd be more apt to choose. I think home would have been decided on sooner. We won't agree but I just think until a decision has to actually be made, he'd be torn and not have to decide until then. 
 

i agree it is his right to wait. It's his right to go UFA. It is BT's right to expect him to sign and go for a cup while Johnny is here. Ultimately, us who said he wanted to go closer to home, were  right because he ended up wanting to play closer to home.

I don't think the trade deadline was ever an option based on team performance and the trade protection.