2021 Offseason Thread

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, kehatch said:

I am on the minority, but I don't care for the a

Dube deal. It's not terrible, and if he progresses it could be a value deal on year 2 and 3, but if he doesn't it's an overpay. 

 

I haven't loved his progression, so that likely hampers my enthusiasm. I would have preferred a smaller one year deal. 

Are  you Will Nault?

[The_People1]

7 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

I don't see Dube getting traded. This is an overpay based on current performance, and is a contract based on potential. I think that makes Dube worth more to the Flames then other teams. Besides trading a guy after inking him to a 3 year deal doesn't happen often. 

 

Agreed.  We're almost certainly not trading Dube at this point unless it's for Eichel or something major.

 

Mayfield would be a good add but the Islanders are probably looking for a LD back... but I'm not sure if Kylington or Mackey would interest them.

[conundrumed]

57 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Agreed.  We're almost certainly not trading Dube at this point unless it's for Eichel or something major.

 

Mayfield would be a good add but the Islanders are probably looking for a LD back... but I'm not sure if Kylington or Mackey would interest them.

I've never been in the trade Dube camp.

I also thought I must be out to lunch when many said $1-1.5 to re-sign him.

I thought it would start with a 2.

I think this is a great signing by BT.

I have no problem saying we have a $2.2 20 goal guy THIS season.

I noticed a few games last yr of Sutter throwing him to the wolves and talking to him on the bench a lot.

I have no problem with him being top 6 RW.

I wonder if we could move on Dvorak for a 2nd, Gawdin, Kyl or similar to make the salary work.

Just fantasizing. Always loved Dvorak.

Tkachuk-Dvorak-Dube

That would be a big fix at C.

 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

I've never been in the trade Dube camp.

I also thought I must be out to lunch when many said $1-1.5 to re-sign him.

I thought it would start with a 2.

I think this is a great signing by BT.

I have no problem saying we have a $2.2 20 goal guy THIS season.

I noticed a few games last yr of Sutter throwing him to the wolves and talking to him on the bench a lot.

I have no problem with him being top 6 RW.

I wonder if we could move on Dvorak for a 2nd, Gawdin, Kyl or similar to make the salary work.

Just fantasizing. Always loved Dvorak.

Tkachuk-Dvorak-Dube

That would be a big fix at C.

 

 

Not that I disagree, but what does that do to the lineup?

You have Lindholm that could be a C or RW, Mangiapane and Gaudreau that is best on LW, Coleman and Dube at RW.

Monahan, Dvorak, Backlund, and even Lindholm at C.

Lindholm was at least as effective as Monahan at C.

 

Do you then trade Monahan for a top 4 D?

 

[conundrumed]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

Not that I disagree, but what does that do to the lineup?

You have Lindholm that could be a C or RW, Mangiapane and Gaudreau that is best on LW, Coleman and Dube at RW.

Monahan, Dvorak, Backlund, and even Lindholm at C.

Lindholm was at least as effective as Monahan at C.

 

Do you then trade Monahan for a top 4 D?

 

Nope. I have JG-Mony-Lindholm reunited

Tkachuk-Dvorak-Dube

Mangia-Backlund-Coleman

Stop telling me Backlund's line is D ONLY. Won't be the case.

Lucic-Lewis-Pitlick 4th that can take on hard minutes works for me.

I'm nowhere near as down on Mony as almost everyone else. Never have been. How quickly we forget a bonafide 30 goal snipe.

Top 4 D is over-rated. Play D, move the puck to the fwds, play D. The main objective for a dman, keep the puck out of your net.

Anything else is just a bonus. Your role isn't offence.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Nope. I have JG-Mony-Lindholm reunited

Tkachuk-Dvorak-Dube

Mangia-Backlund-Coleman

Stop telling me Backlund's line is D ONLY. Won't be the case.

Lucic-Lewis-Pitlick 4th that can take on hard minutes works for me.

I'm nowhere near as down on Mony as almost everyone else. Never have been. How quickly we forget a bonafide 30 goal snipe.

Top 4 D is over-rated. Play D, move the puck to the fwds, play D. The main objective for a dman, keep the puck out of your net.

Anything else is just a bonus. Your role isn't offence.

 

Just asking.  Was trying to balance the cap in my mind.  

3M was Mangiapane-Backlund-Tkachuk, so I have no problem seeing offense from Backlund's line.

I think you could go a few ways with the top 9 players you have identified, but I won't get into that.

There is no doubt in my mnd that Monahan can return to glory, as long as his surgery and rehab have fixed the problem.

 

BTW, glad to have you back in form.

Know you were really down on the team.

[conundrumed]

39 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Just asking.  Was trying to balance the cap in my mind.  

3M was Mangiapane-Backlund-Tkachuk, so I have no problem seeing offense from Backlund's line.

I think you could go a few ways with the top 9 players you have identified, but I won't get into that.

There is no doubt in my mnd that Monahan can return to glory, as long as his surgery and rehab have fixed the problem.

 

BTW, glad to have you back in form.

Know you were really down on the team.

Last year was frustration overload. I'm trying to turn it around. It was a covid season that was a waste of everyone's time.

I should have just learnt/written more songs on my guitar.lol

Would have been a more effective use of my time than the hackey season.

I'm feeling pretty confident. Vali-Dube-Mangia in "let's get Eichel" talk annoyed the Satoshi Nakamoto out of me.

I'm glad they're staying. Youth to call our own and I think the 3 of them are > than 1 Eichel.

1 McDavid, 1 MacKinnon etc has solved nothing for their clubs. 1 Eichel did nothing to lift Buffalo. Please people, perspective.

I'd go so far as a protected 1st rd pick for Dvorak. Our need for another bonafide C on a good contract outweighs the pick. Imho.

Hard to find solid NHL C's. He's a good one. I always called him the ninja in jr. Tkachuk-Marner-Marner-Tkachuk, Blockchain, where did Dvorak come from?

He's not Datsyuk, but he reminds me of him.

Last guy to enter the o-zone so everyone's so busy that they forgot about him.

*edit

If BT can swing a deal to bring Dvorak here, I'll post my new Flames jersey pic.lol

[MP5029]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I've never been in the trade Dube camp.

I also thought I must be out to lunch when many said $1-1.5 to re-sign him.

I thought it would start with a 2.

I think this is a great signing by BT.

I have no problem saying we have a $2.2 20 goal guy THIS season.

I noticed a few games last yr of Sutter throwing him to the wolves and talking to him on the bench a lot.

I have no problem with him being top 6 RW.

I wonder if we could move on Dvorak for a 2nd, Gawdin, Kyl or similar to make the salary work.

Just fantasizing. Always loved Dvorak.

Tkachuk-Dvorak-Dube

That would be a big fix at C.

 

Well if they could land Dvorak at a reasonable price I do like the options that bring so for the 2nd and 3rd lines:

 

 Tachuck/Dvorak/ Dube or Coleman 

Manji/Backlund/Dube or Coleman 

 

all things being equal, if all the players play to their abilities those are some really good 2nd and 3rd line combos behind

 

Gaudreau/Monahan/Lindholm 

 

it could open up some room for the top line as any of the other two lines could be dangerous…which is really the big issue the past few seasons, shut done the first line and Cgy scoring is done…those lines all 3 could be very dangerous at any given time and would be hard to shut down all 3 I would think? 

[travel_dude]

50 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Last year was frustration overload. I'm trying to turn it around. It was a covid season that was a waste of everyone's time.

I should have just learnt/written more songs on my guitar.lol

Would have been a more effective use of my time than the hackey season.

I'm feeling pretty confident. Vali-Dube-Mangia in "let's get Eichel" talk annoyed the Satoshi Nakamoto out of me.

I'm glad they're staying. Youth to call our own and I think the 3 of them are > than 1 Eichel.

1 McDavid, 1 MacKinnon etc has solved nothing for their clubs. 1 Eichel did nothing to lift Buffalo. Please people, perspective.

I'd go so far as a protected 1st rd pick for Dvorak. Our need for another bonafide C on a good contract outweighs the pick. Imho.

Hard to find solid NHL C's. He's a good one. I always called him the ninja in jr. Tkachuk-Marner-Marner-Tkachuk, Blockchain, where did Dvorak come from?

He's not Datsyuk, but he reminds me of him.

Last guy to enter the o-zone so everyone's so busy that they forgot about him.

*edit

If BT can swing a deal to bring Dvorak here, I'll post my new Flames jersey pic.lol

 

That's funny.

Make sure they spell it right.

Chicago messed up MAF's jersey on his last name spelling.

 

The last two seasons have been a waste of time.

COVID playoffs.

COVID season of the North.

I learned nothing about the team other than we lose to so-called bad teams and beat so-called good teams.

 

[conundrumed]

12 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

Well if they could land Dvorak at a reasonable price I do like the options that bring so for the 2nd and 3rd lines:

 

 Tachuck/Dvorak/ Dube or Coleman 

Manji/Backlund/Dube or Coleman 

 

all things being equal, if all the players play to their abilities those are some really good 2nd and 3rd line combos behind

 

Gaudreau/Monahan/Lindholm 

 

it could open up some room for the top line as any of the other two lines could be dangerous…which is really the big issue the past few seasons, shut done the first line and Cgy scoring is done…those lines all 3 could be very dangerous at any given time and would be hard to shut down all 3 I would think? 

Now swap Eichel out for Dvorak. Now look at everything you gave up for Eichel and add that to Dvorak.

Without a doubt that's better than Eichel.

 

[conundrumed]

18 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

That's funny.

Make sure they spell it right.

Chicago messed up MAF's jersey on his last name spelling.

 

The last two seasons have been a waste of time.

COVID playoffs.

COVID season of the North.

I learned nothing about the team other than we lose to so-called bad teams and beat so-called good teams.

 

I'm Christian only in Dvorak.lol

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Now swap Eichel out for Dvorak. Now look at everything you gave up for Eichel and add that to Dvorak.

Without a doubt that's better than Eichel.

 

 

I think the window is basically closed for the Eichel trade.

Buffalo had the time to do it, now they are toast.

The NHLPA will step in and negotiate what treatment Eichel can get and the Sabres will need to hold off on any trade.

Way too late now.

TDL is now their best bet, but that will eliminate most teams.

Only way a 1st will go to them, and it's going to be a middling 1st.

The other pieces will be nothing special.

 

[jjgallow]

30 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think the window is basically closed for the Eichel trade.

Buffalo had the time to do it, now they are toast.

The NHLPA will step in and negotiate what treatment Eichel can get and the Sabres will need to hold off on any trade.

Way too late now.

TDL is now their best bet, but that will eliminate most teams.

Only way a 1st will go to them, and it's going to be a middling 1st.

The other pieces will be nothing special.

 

 

I wouldn't personally rule out a trade yet but I am MORE than happy to rule it out for the Flames.

 

It was never a realistic trade and never one that would have improved us, didn't belong in the realistic improvement thread.

 

Low probability High risk Low reward move.

 

People don't realize we would have lost healthy players for an injured one.   I mean I like what Eichel brings, but we would have been gutted for a guy that may not be the same player again.   He doesn't help us on the RHS of the ice although he does have the RHS, he doesn't help us on D, he doesn't help us in net, and the wingers we brought him in to play with probably would have been lost in the trade itself.

 

It wouldn't have even changed my expectations for this season, Buffalo has clearly shown that you can finish last in the NHL with an elite center if you have no defence or goaltending.    

 

"The Team we have now is Not the team we will have when the season starts"....   Tick.  Tock.    lol.

 

Honestly though, trades can make a team worse as well.   Maybe it's best if this is our roster.

[zima]

I'm not a fan for trading for a player that might not ever be the same after a surgery that could make him lose a step or 2 and there is always the fact he could reinjure it . It will cost us a couple of quality players I might be ok with trading Coronato mainly because I have a total fear of NCAA players that can jump ship and I see it happen more with college kids then I ever have with junior players. but I would not give up any other players because Eich to me is a mystery as far as his health goes.

[LouCifer]

It appears fairly obvious to me that BT is out of the Eichel conversation, with all of the recent Flames signings. I think he was holding off to give him some flexibility if Eichel was acquired. That said, Eichel's value has dropped that much more thanks to very few teams with available cap space, the delayed surgery causing Eichel to have to miss the start of the season, and of course the missed opportunity at the draft for draft picks. Eichel also just changed agents to add more to the drama. It's at the point where Buffalo is going to have to accept roster players with salary in return to move Eichel this season. I'm with Conundrummed on the Dvorak front - fingers crossed. The only way Eichel is a possibility here or elsewhere is if guys with salaries like Mony or Chucky are going the opposite way. Otherwise the money won't work. Maybe all the GMs colluded to drop Buffalo's asking price and force them to accept salaried players in return - who knows. But again, Dvorak - if available - would be a nice target and as an aside I'm sure Chucky would be happy with it. 

[zima]

So tell me how many here would like to see MrT leaving in some kind of trade that would make sense? I love this kid and the way he plays although I think BTG has put the hammer down one his nastiness which has hurt his ability to play his game which isn't fair to him. 

[cross16]

14 hours ago, robrob74 said:

Are  you Will Nault?

 

This was a great post. Well done

 

 

[cross16]

16 minutes ago, lou44291 said:

It appears fairly obvious to me that BT is out of the Eichel conversation, with all of the recent Flames signings. I think he was holding off to give him some flexibility if Eichel was acquired. That said, Eichel's value has dropped that much more thanks to very few teams with available cap space, the delayed surgery causing Eichel to have to miss the start of the season, and of course the missed opportunity at the draft for draft picks. Eichel also just changed agents to add more to the drama. It's at the point where Buffalo is going to have to accept roster players with salary in return to move Eichel this season. I'm with Conundrummed on the Dvorak front - fingers crossed. The only way Eichel is a possibility here or elsewhere is if guys with salaries like Mony or Chucky are going the opposite way. Otherwise the money won't work. Maybe all the GMs colluded to drop Buffalo's asking price and force them to accept salaried players in return - who knows. But again, Dvorak - if available - would be a nice target and as an aside I'm sure Chucky would be happy with it. 

 

I don't think this is the case. All of the recent signings were normal cost of business signings to retain their own guys that would have happened with or without Eichel. The Flames were always in a position where if they wanted to pursue Eichel, or really anyone at that dollar figure, they needed to send money out. 

 

IMO, nothing has really changed. I have no idea if the Flames are still active with Eichel, a few reports suggest yes, but I don't think we can read anything into that based on their most recent business. 

[robrob74]

8 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Last year was frustration overload. I'm trying to turn it around. It was a covid season that was a waste of everyone's time.

I should have just learnt/written more songs on my guitar.lol

Would have been a more effective use of my time than the hackey season.

I'm feeling pretty confident. Vali-Dube-Mangia in "let's get Eichel" talk annoyed the Satoshi Nakamoto out of me.

I'm glad they're staying. Youth to call our own and I think the 3 of them are > than 1 Eichel.

1 McDavid, 1 MacKinnon etc has solved nothing for their clubs. 1 Eichel did nothing to lift Buffalo. Please people, perspective.

I'd go so far as a protected 1st rd pick for Dvorak. Our need for another bonafide C on a good contract outweighs the pick. Imho.

Hard to find solid NHL C's. He's a good one. I always called him the ninja in jr. Tkachuk-Marner-Marner-Tkachuk, Blockchain, where did Dvorak come from?

He's not Datsyuk, but he reminds me of him.

Last guy to enter the o-zone so everyone's so busy that they forgot about him.

*edit

If BT can swing a deal to bring Dvorak here, I'll post my new Flames jersey pic.lol

I get that I sound like a Negative Nelly but last year wasn’t an aberration. This has been going on for 2.5 seasons. What we saw is the norm for those players. I just don’t see it changing, unless he monahan was injured for that whole time, I don’t see how it’ll be different. Other teams know them too well.

[LouCifer]

4 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I get that I sound like a Negative Nelly but last year wasn’t an aberration. This has been going on for 2.5 seasons. What we saw is the norm for those players. I just don’t see it changing, unless he monahan was injured for that whole time, I don’t see how it’ll be different. Other teams know them too well.

You and I have shared that same view the past few years. It was evident in the 2nd half of the season we ended up 2nd overall. 

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

This was a great post. Well done

 

 

i was listening to the fan and Will Nault has been so down on Dube, thinking he hasn’t taken a step in his development and not to the speed he’d expect it to happen, not ready to be up on Dube.

i generally respect Kehatch’s opinions, well everyone’s on here for that matter…

 

But come on! Give me a break! He’s young, is still developing and is very promising. He got thrown into a role he wasn’t ready for and to me that was lofty for where he was in his career. 
 

start throwing stones after this year or next! Dube is on a similar path as Mange!

[kehatch]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

i was listening to the fan and Will Nault has been so down on Dube, thinking he hasn’t taken a step in his development and not to the speed he’d expect it to happen, not ready to be up on Dube.

i generally respect Kehatch’s opinions, well everyone’s on here for that matter…

 

But come on! Give me a break! He’s young, is still developing and is very promising. He got thrown into a role he wasn’t ready for and to me that was lofty for where he was in his career. 
 

start throwing stones after this year or next! Dube is on a similar path as Mange!

 

I wasn't throwing stones, and I didn't think my post was overly negative. I like Dube, I just didn't think he showed enough for a "pay for potential" type of deal. 

 

But as I said, it's not a terrible overpay, and even if he doesn't take another step forward the contract isn't going to be a big deal. 

[The_People1]

21 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Last year was frustration overload. I'm trying to turn it around. It was a covid season that was a waste of everyone's time.

I should have just learnt/written more songs on my guitar.lol

Would have been a more effective use of my time than the hackey season.

I'm feeling pretty confident. Vali-Dube-Mangia in "let's get Eichel" talk annoyed the Satoshi Nakamoto out of me.

I'm glad they're staying. Youth to call our own and I think the 3 of them are > than 1 Eichel.

1 McDavid, 1 MacKinnon etc has solved nothing for their clubs. 1 Eichel did nothing to lift Buffalo. Please people, perspective.

I'd go so far as a protected 1st rd pick for Dvorak. Our need for another bonafide C on a good contract outweighs the pick. Imho.

Hard to find solid NHL C's. He's a good one. I always called him the ninja in jr. Tkachuk-Marner-Marner-Tkachuk, Blockchain, where did Dvorak come from?

He's not Datsyuk, but he reminds me of him.

Last guy to enter the o-zone so everyone's so busy that they forgot about him.

*edit

If BT can swing a deal to bring Dvorak here, I'll post my new Flames jersey pic.lol

 

While I think Dvorak would be a great add, let's not get carried away here.  Eichel is a difference maker while Dvorak is a complementary piece.

 

Dvorak is good... arguably better than Monahan (not saying much but I mean)... and if we can swing something like Zary for Dvorak, that could make sense for both teams.  ARZ wants to tank and rebuild.  They get a good young piece.  We get Tkachuk his London Knight Center.  I think moving Lindholm back to RW makes sense but I also know we want a RHS Center in the line-up so, it's tough.

[kehatch]

36 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

While I think Dvorak would be a great add, let's not get carried away here.  Eichel is a difference maker while Dvorak is a complementary piece.

 

Dvorak is good... arguably better than Monahan (not saying much but I mean)... and if we can swing something like Zary for Dvorak, that could make sense for both teams.  ARZ wants to tank and rebuild.  They get a good young piece.  We get Tkachuk his London Knight Center.  I think moving Lindholm back to RW makes sense but I also know we want a RHS Center in the line-up so, it's tough.

 

I have my issues with Monahan, but let's me fair. Excluding his rookie year, he is 26 in p/gp and 19 in g/gp among Cs with at least 200 games. 

 

Last year he was bad, and he wasn't exactly great the season before. So I guess we will have to see if this trend continues. But he had 5 solid seasons before that and he is a bit young to think he won't get back to that. 

 

On Dvorak, I think he costs more then Zary. Defensive centres seem to cost a bunch, and this one is on a solid contract and is young. Definitely would like to add him though. 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

23 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I wouldn't personally rule out a trade yet but I am MORE than happy to rule it out for the Flames.

 

It was never a realistic trade and never one that would have improved us, didn't belong in the realistic improvement thread.

 

Low probability High risk Low reward move.

 

People don't realize we would have lost healthy players for an injured one.   I mean I like what Eichel brings, but we would have been gutted for a guy that may not be the same player again.   He doesn't help us on the RHS of the ice although he does have the RHS, he doesn't help us on D, he doesn't help us in net, and the wingers we brought him in to play with probably would have been lost in the trade itself.

 

It wouldn't have even changed my expectations for this season, Buffalo has clearly shown that you can finish last in the NHL with an elite center if you have no defence or goaltending.    

 

"The Team we have now is Not the team we will have when the season starts"....   Tick.  Tock.    lol.

 

Honestly though, trades can make a team worse as well.   Maybe it's best if this is our roster.

I agree totally. Theres still the backlog at LW with Johnny, Chucky, and Mangi. I'm not a fan of moving someone to their off wing and keeping Mangi on the 3rd line is a waste so for the betterment of the team one of them should go.  Theres pros and cons of trading each player and I guess there are some ways keeping all 3 could work, but theres also holes that still need to be addressed.