2019 Playoffs: What have we learned?

[phoenix66]

4 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Right place , right time, don't know and was just repeating what I heard. Is he a fit here I don't know that either. If we are going for a C the player I would like is Braydon Schenn from STL. Where do you think Duchene's asking price will be ?

Hes one id consider for sure ..depending on the asking price... Duchesne .. likely around 8 

another spitball you could try is see if Anaheim would take Neal straight up for Getzlaf.. they save 3.5 , we realistically only take on another 3.5

 

[phoenix66]

2 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

If you could obtain Duchene I would still move Monahan out of a C position to LW. I think the team needs a few new dynamics.

Gaudreau, Bennett, Tkachuk

Monahan, Duchene, Lindholm

Dzingel, Backlund, Kapanen

This would be 3 awesome lines for us.

I still stand by that Bennett is not an NHL center .. hes totally suited to the wing 

if you can somehow get a real #1 center that moves monahan to the 2nd line , you win twice 

[MAC331]

1 minute ago, phoenix66 said:

Hes one id consider for sure ..depending on the asking price... Duchesne .. likely around 8 

another spitball you could try is see if Anaheim would take Neal straight up for Getzlaf.. they save 3.5 , we realistically only take on another 3.5

 

I like Duchene more where he is now at 6M. Getzlaf no thx. Schenn would be my preference. Maybe Brodie and Mangiapane for him as they have a number of Cs.

[MAC331]

2 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I still stand by that Bennett is not an NHL center .. hes totally suited to the wing 

if you can somehow get a real #1 center that moves monahan to the 2nd line , you win twice 

Agree to disagree.

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, MAC331 said:

I like Duchene more where he is now at 6M. Getzlaf no thx. Schenn would be my preference. Maybe Brodie and Mangiapane for him as they have a number of Cs.

youd be getting him at his UFA year and hes already at 5.1.. he will likely end up 7 or 8 as well 

[MAC331]

4 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

youd be getting him at his UFA year and hes already at 5.1.. he will likely end up 7 or 8 as well 

I'm not sure I would worry to much about that with Schenn, especially if the team is focused on winning a SC in the next 3 years. If Schenn helps next season and doesn't want to sign at a number that works he walks. If we gave up Brodie and say Mangiapane I can live with that know I have Lindholm and Monahan that can slide into playing C if need be.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Nobody has any right to question whether  others on here are true fans.  That is childish and totally unacceptable.

 

The topic of this thread is "what did we learn".

 

Your answer was "go flames go".

 

Yes, from  a corporate perspective you are a much better fan for the Flame's bottom line.   Guaranteed income regardless of the quality of the product 

 

Some of us here like watching great hockey.   Playoff hockey especially.  Some of us want our city represented well.  Some of us want more, and we're willing to accept a little pain to get it. 

 

You don't have to agree with it but the least you can do is respect it.   

I've been a Flames fan for a long time. Other than the miracle run of '04 it has been almost 30 years of terrible scouting, woeful drafting, questionable signings, all without being a contender or even getting a good draft position. Finally the last couple years have given the fans a sense of hope. Scouting has given the future some stability, the Hurricanes trade worked very well in our favor, and the team had shown what it is capable of. Like many have said, a better 5 minutes here, a little more urgency there and this series could have had a very different outcome. This line up has given the fans more hope than any other in recent memory yet you feel the need to voice your displeasure before the players are barely off the ice. (So much you made an overhaul based thread)

You want Trev gone because the team he's assembled doesn't meet your standards.  You complain about players that aren't built for the playoffs, yet they signed a "proven playoff performer", look how that worked out.  Apparently our D-line is screwed, (I guess you know more than EVERYONE on this board since you seem to be the only one with that opinion).  Our goaltending is not playoff material but you offer no solution.

You have every right to voice your concern and disappointments, we all have, myself included. But to go to the boards and say EVERYTHING needs to be overhauled? C'mon now, if it was another year of missed playoffs without getting a decent draft position after all the moves made in the off season I would probably agree with you. But to think that a rebuild is the solution you obviously forget how well rebuilds have gone in the last 30 years.

 

BTW Regardless of the record or playoff performance the team doesn't get anything from me financially, I'm out of town.

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

I've been a Flames fan for a long time. Other than the miracle run of '04 it has been almost 30 years of terrible scouting, woeful drafting, questionable signings, all without being a contender or even getting a good draft position. Finally the last couple years have given the fans a sense of hope. Scouting has given the future some stability, the Hurricanes trade worked very well in our favor, and the team had shown what it is capable of. Like many have said, a better 5 minutes here, a little more urgency there and this series could have had a very different outcome. This line up has given the fans more hope than any other in recent memory yet you feel the need to voice your displeasure before the players are barely off the ice. (So much you made an overhaul based thread)

You want Trev gone because the team he's assembled doesn't meet your standards.  You complain about players that aren't built for the playoffs, yet they signed a "proven playoff performer", look how that worked out.  Apparently our D-line is screwed, (I guess you know more than EVERYONE on this board since you seem to be the only one with that opinion).  Our goaltending is not playoff material but you offer no solution.

You have every right to voice your concern and disappointments, we all have, myself included. But to go to the boards and say EVERYTHING needs to be overhauled? C'mon now, if it was another year of missed playoffs without getting a decent draft position after all the moves made in the off season I would probably agree with you. But to think that a rebuild is the solution you obviously forget how well rebuilds have gone in the last 30 years.

 

BTW Regardless of the record or playoff performance the team doesn't get anything from me financially, I'm out of town.

 

There's a lot I could respond with here, but brief synopsis:

 

1.  You've been a Flames fan for a long time.

 

2.  This is the first time in 30 years you've had any hope.

 

Is what I get from the above.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

There's a lot I could respond with here, but brief synopsis:

 

1.  You've been a Flames fan for a long time.

 

2.  This is the first time in 30 years you've had any hope.

 

Is what I get from the above.

You conveniently left out your hasty conclusion of the entire team.

[jjgallow]

16 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

You conveniently left out your hasty conclusion of the entire team.

 

I left out nothing, I actually wrote you a whole page, and then I deleted it

 

I'm not going to call it wisdom but we all get a little smarter with age.   A rebuild doesn't have to be the entire team.  I could have worded it in a more appealing way, that's just not my style.

 

Gaudreau, Gio, I would trade ( if the trade is right).    And for picks or prospects.   

 

The rest is optional

[robrob74]

7 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Nobody has any right to question whether  others on here are true fans.  That is childish and totally unacceptable.

 

The topic of this thread is "what did we learn".

 

Your answer was "go flames go".

 

Yes, from  a corporate perspective you are a much better fan for the Flame's bottom line.   Guaranteed income regardless of the quality of the product 

 

Some of us here like watching great hockey.   Playoff hockey especially.  Some of us want our city represented well.  Some of us want more, and we're willing to accept a little pain to get it. 

 

You don't have to agree with it but the least you can do is respect it.   

 

This!

 

i was considered as being too negative all year when pointing out team deficiencies in a lot of the victories,  but that’s because if you don’t clean up warts, they tend to show up when you least want them to. 

 

I didnt want them to show up in the playoffs. Slow starters, we barely even got started... bad giveaways.... I don’t need to name everything. I am not saying this to say I was right, it was more the desire to clean up the warts. 

 

 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

This!

 

i was considered as being too negative all year when pointing out team deficiencies in a lot of the victories,  but that’s because if you don’t clean up warts, they tend to show up when you least want them to. 

 

I didnt want them to show up in the playoffs. Slow starters, we barely even got started... bad giveaways.... I don’t need to name everything. I am not saying this to say I was right, it was more the desire to clean up the warts. 

 

 

 

A few called you out in the GDT's because that's sacred ground.  

Nothing wrong with those opinions any time else.   

 

What you saw in the playoffs is not what the Flames problems were in the regular season.

We had a few games similar to the playoffs, where guys like Eric Francis created a controversy about something.

The Doubty narrative.

The Minny coach talking abot Smith.

Kane's talk about the Flames hiding.

The "turtle" incident.

 

The coach was duped into reactionary coaching.

The same could be said to the playoffs.

We play Backlund over 20 minutes a night at home, because of McKinnon?

Top pairing goes into a shell.

You can;t win many games where you are trying to not be scored on (Gully version of winning is holding on to a 1-1 tie to get to OT).

How many times did you see the inital shot stopped, but the team forgot about the other two forwards with Smith face down after a huge stop.

 

 

[robrob74]

11 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

A few called you out in the GDT's because that's sacred ground.  

Nothing wrong with those opinions any time else.   

 

What you saw in the playoffs is not what the Flames problems were in the regular season.

We had a few games similar to the playoffs, where guys like Eric Francis created a controversy about something.

The Doubty narrative.

The Minny coach talking abot Smith.

Kane's talk about the Flames hiding.

The "turtle" incident.

 

The coach was duped into reactionary coaching.

The same could be said to the playoffs.

We play Backlund over 20 minutes a night at home, because of McKinnon?

Top pairing goes into a shell.

You can;t win many games where you are trying to not be scored on (Gully version of winning is holding on to a 1-1 tie to get to OT).

How many times did you see the inital shot stopped, but the team forgot about the other two forwards with Smith face down after a huge stop.

 

 

 

🙂

 

well, I actually think that they played this way all year only all of the problems happened all at once.

 

i was saying through the year, can’t start slow, need to start games better. The 3rd was always our bread and butter. I was worried we couldn’t flick a switch or playing from behind would cost us. Well, most of the time we haven’t even showed up, and two games we had to play from behind and we won one despite not showing up and the other team didn’t either.

 

i know we had great stats throughout the year. We scored a ton. But how many games I talked about without the top line we are hooped. The 4th started scoring. But second half it became a problem and I wasn’t as worried because we were still winning and thought the secondary scoring started to get it done. 

 

One thing we know is that the Flames didn’t even show up. They didn’t play “their game.” But I think that “their game” is what we saw. The team can’t play when it gets tougher in the playoffs and we saw when things tighten up, Monahan had 5 games in the last 27 where he scored points. I got that from the morning show.

 

For me, the playoffs amp up so hard and you can almost not just flick a switch. The tendencies the flames had were somewhat cleaned up and we had pretty stats to back it up. But the tendencies were there. We out scored the the bad habits in the regular season. When the game amped up, we had slow starts to almost no legs at all, bad giveaways and brain farts and the first line was easy to shut down and what could our depth do if the first was couldn’t score? 

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

One thing we know is that the Flames didn’t even show up. They didn’t play “their game.” But I think that “their game” is what we saw. The team can’t play when it gets tougher in the playoffs and we saw when things tighten up, Monahan had 5 games in the last 27 where he scored points. I got that from the morning show.

 

For me, the playoffs amp up so hard and you can almost not just flick a switch. The tendencies the flames had were somewhat cleaned up and we had pretty stats to back it up. But the tendencies were there. We out scored the the bad habits in the regular season. When the game amped up, we had slow starts to almost no legs at all, bad giveaways and brain farts and the first line was easy to shut down and what could our depth do if the first was couldn’t score? 

 

I don't think we saw anything close to their game.  There was nothing that looked familiar.  We didn't have anything resembling a possession game.  We played in a shell, not taking any chances but getting burned because we sat back and game them the space to gain speed.  Similar to McDavid, McKinnon builds speed in the neutral zone.  You give him any room there and he will be at top speed.

 

We hit more than the other team, but then again hitting means you don't have the puck.  Personally, this series looked lightweight compared to others I have watched.

And yet, they called about 7-9 penalties per game.

 

I don't see the lack of space being the reason we lost.  What's the point of having Gaudreau if he has nobody to pass to.  The only times we looked fast was when he got a breakaway.

 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't think we saw anything close to their game.  There was nothing that looked familiar.  We didn't have anything resembling a possession game.  We played in a shell, not taking any chances but getting burned because we sat back and game them the space to gain speed.  Similar to McDavid, McKinnon builds speed in the neutral zone.  You give him any room there and he will be at top speed.

 

We hit more than the other team, but then again hitting means you don't have the puck.  Personally, this series looked lightweight compared to others I have watched.

And yet, they called about 7-9 penalties per game.

 

I don't see the lack of space being the reason we lost.  What's the point of having Gaudreau if he has nobody to pass to.  The only times we looked fast was when he got a breakaway.

 

 

I think lack of space was due to the other team closing gaps so fast, and whenever we got into their zone there was no room to really do much. Their speed made us rush passes and chances. If our guys got the puck the other team was allowed to lean on them to slow them down. Our guys are mostly smaller and weigh about 30-40 lbs less. 

 

I just don’t think it is one thing. It’s a lot of the bad habits happening all at once. When I say no room I think it’s true because the team did nothing to try make room by supporting the puck carrier. We were easy to defend because of it and it made quick turnovers for the Avs to attack. 

 

 

[phoenix66]

What a Bizarre First round 

 

Both Conference winners gone 

All 4 Division winners gone 

5/8 Home Ice Holders Gone 

 

It aint just Calgary Folks !

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

25 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

What a Bizarre First round 

 

Both Conference winners gone 

All 4 Division winners gone 

5/8 Home Ice Holders Gone 

 

It aint just Calgary Folks !

All 4 wildcard teams advance.

[Thebrewcrew]

Playoff experience is irrelevant. That's what I learned tonight.

 

CAR took down the defending champs with a roster with 11 players that hadn't played in the playoffs before.

 

That excuse can't cut it around here ever again, nor should it ever have been a sufficient excuse.

[travel_dude]

Call it a win for Bettman.

League parity partially as a result of bad officiating.

Division matchups suck.

The only plus side is the WC teams that get to cross over.

 

I guess what they say is true.  Just get to the playoffs and anything can happen.

First thing is to go into the playoffs hot.

Fight your way to your spot, whether it's top of the division or conference.

Play the tough team fighting for a spot.

Have the right goalie hot at the right time.

 

Sounds easy.

In hind sight, I would have liked a CGY-VGK matchup.

May not have won it, but it would have been a good series.

[robrob74]

I think it goes to show you what heart or should I say engaged hockey players can do. If our team woke up they should’ve been at least to game 7. 

 

Far removed from the try hard find a way Flames that made it under Hartley. 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

I think it goes to show you what heart or should I say engaged hockey players can do. If our team woke up they should’ve been at least to game 7. 

 

Far removed from the try hard find a way Flames that made it under Hartley. 

 

We weren't "woke" enough.

 

[MAC331]

Giving this some further thought here is some changes I believe are essential in order to have a better team and one more geared to Peters desired style of play.

Monahan needs to move out of C to LW on the 2nd line, he isn't fast enough to cover the amount of ice Peters wants from his Cs.

Tkachuk needs to change positions to RW on the top line in order to max out his talents, production and value to the team. He also needs to always have two strong skaters with him.

Lindholm emerged as a top player.

Neal is not going to be a fit here on a Peters team along with having Monahan and Tkachuk already slowing things down. BT needs to trade him.

I have no idea why problems emerged with Frolik but I would keep him if the budget allows it.

Bennett, Hathaway, Mangiapane and Ryan all emerged with their talents and compete levels for the team.

Jankowski progressed marginally and excelled on the PK.

DEFENSE

Giordano should win the Norris and is still the Leader of this team.

Brodie had a strong start and became the same reckless, useless defenseman we have seen the past 3 seasons. Trade him.

Hamonic stellar but not great, well priced.
Hanafin has talent just needs to think the game a lot better.

Andersson had a great season but needs to stop making to many mistakes.

Kylington I thought showed he can play at the NHL level.

Valimaki in limited time showed he will be elite.

Fantenberg and Prout showed reliable as steady defensemen in limited roles.

GOALES

Smith even with somewhat of a comeback shouldn't be signed back on.

Rittich showed reliable at the NHL level with a larger number of starts but I wouldn't anoint him "the starter" for next season just yet.

[The_People1]

47 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

 

Monahan needs to move out of C to LW on the 2nd line, he isn't fast enough to cover the amount of ice Peters wants from his Cs.

Tkachuk needs to change positions to RW on the top line in order to max out his talents, production and value to the team. 

 

This game of music chairs leaves Bennett as our #1 C?  Is that really a good idea?  Or do u feel we have a trade for a #1 C this summer?

[MAC331]

36 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

This game of music chairs leaves Bennett as our #1 C?  Is that really a good idea?  Or do u feel we have a trade for a #1 C this summer?

Lindholm as top C, possibly Bennett as a #2 if no one else brought in which I expect they will. Put a new lineup in the 2019 thread with ideas.

[bosn111]

I don't know what we can say we really learned, until we get all of the info out of the team, some of which we may never get. I won't try and limit this comment just to the playoffs but to the season as a whole.

 

We did learn that Rittich had an injured knee for most of the second half of the season. It is a big reason he is not going to the worlds this year. We can therefore understand that his slightly diminished play, and added starts for Smith, were a result of this injury.

 

We have seen over the past few years, that when Johnny starts to be hacked and slashed, his production falls off. Without line mates providing him more space, and the loosening up of reffing on slashes to the hands, Johnny gets effectively nullified. Without the elite passing of Johnny or a similar player, Monahan becomes much less effective. He is more of a pure sniper, similar to my understanding of Neal, rather than a player who creates and drives the play and chances themselves. Johnny needs a center who drives the play and can really push the defenders back to open up more space for him. To really get to the next level, Monahan is not the center Johny needs. Monahan needs a winger who will pressure the D to give him room in the slot and can get him the puck. 

 

Lindholm Showed he had another gear throughout the season. Not overly physical in the regular season, but when offence was lacking, he picked up the physical play, throwing his weight around and continuing to be good defensively. I see a long, positive future from him with continued growth. He is a very good all around talent who doesn't really excel at any one thing. Not an elite passer or sniper but can make plays and score goals while still being solid defensively. 

 

Neal just doesn't really fit this team as it sits right now. He doesn't fit with Johnny and Monahan because he and Monahan are too similar. Backlund doesn't create enough space on the 2nd line and while Tkachuk is a skilled playmaker, he is too busy being a pest to really focus on his offence. Janks, Benny and Neal were relied on more for defence and had too limited time to help Neal be successful. Putting Neal on the 4th line simply is not a good financial move. If the team was to trade Monahan or Backlund for a player more suited to the style needed for Johnny and Neal, such as a skilled, fast, power forward type C (not sure who), then I could see both players elevating their game. I would not be against trading Neal for a decent return. I am sure there are teams who would take a shot on Neal, but they will definitely low ball the Flames in a trade based on this past season.

 

Frolik and Peters for some reason  don't always see eye to eye. Does this mean Frolik is traded? It really depends on what happens up and down the lineup. Peters did seem to keep the 3M line together regardless the game or situation, so maybe the issue was less with Frolik and more just looking for a small change. Only time will tell.

 

Backlund is still quality NHL player, but he is definitely not the offensive force we hoped he would be, and he had some major gaffs defensively in playoffs. Is he simply a player who tires too much over the season and is burnt out by playoffs? Is he slowing down or just not as good as we thought? I don't have the answer here, but maybe a change needs to be made to reduce his ice time.

 

Tkachuk continues in his development. Playing second to Johnny means he may never reach full offensive potential with the Flames, but he is definitely improving his play and proving his value to the team. Getting smarter about how far he can push the edge.

 

Janks is a solid PKer. He may not be the strongest, fastest, or most offensive 5 on 5, he is a player who is very beneficial to the team. He may never make top 6, but he is still young and improving. Also a reasonable cap hit, so no need to move on. Keep him and let him keep developing.

 

Benett is not showing that he should get a massive contract, nor that he is more than a third line, energy guy. Can he still improve and get better into the top 6? It is possible as he is still very young and there is definite growth. Keep him at the right cost. May need to find better fit with line mates.

 

Smith at the right cap hit could be re-signed based on playoff performance. I wouldn't sign him to big dollar starter money, but lower cost backup to help Rittich continue to grow would not be a terrible move.

 

Mangiapane, Hathaway and Ryan all showed good flashes. I felt fine having Ryan on as he can move up and down the lineup to cover injuries and not look fully out of place. Mangiapane continued to show solid growth and will continue to develop. 3rd liner easily, if Gaudreau or Tkachuk moved either side or traded could see Mang 2nd line. Hathaway does well as a 4th liner but I don't see him doing much more and I wouldn't pay him too much to keep him. Czarnik adds speed and some skill. Need to get him in the right position to succeed with the proper ice time. What that is, I don't know.

 

Gio is Gio but for how much longer? Brodie showed last year that he is not terribly versatile. Giordano really helps him. He is a good, puck moving defence man but makes some big mistakes at inopportune times. Either his ice time needs to be protected or he can be traded for assets. Andersson may be slightly less offensive but has an advantage defensively, is younger and costs less. Has shown at least good chemistry with Bio, but then, who doesn't?

 

Hanafin still being young has some lapses in play. Gio has proven that age on defence usually improves a player. While he is far from perfect, he handled the season as well as we could really expect, is not super costly and fits fairly well with the team. He has shown good chemistry with Hamonic, a solid warrior on D who is worth the cap hit, even without any big time offense.

 

Valimaki, Fantenberg and Kylington all showed NHL capabilities in limited viewing. It will be difficult to chose between the 3 unless we see other movement in the D corps. They are all too good for AHL and so with limited spots, somethings gotta give. Kylington is the most offensive so far, Fanta is the most Defensive while Valimaki seems to be the most balanced with the highest ceiling. Prout makes for a reasonable #7 D man, so really at least 3 D from the current roster need to be moved. Stone has become basically obsolete for the Flames. Not due to a lack of ability, sadly he was injured, but at the cap hit and with both Andersson and Hamonic stepping up, I think Stone no longer has a spot with the Flames unless Brodie, Fanta and Kylington all get moved out. He simply costs too much to be a #7.

 

I won't predict what will change for next season. While there are many great pieces in place, some don't fit the current team and there are pieces missing. It's almost like the Flames are 2 or 3 different puzzles mixed together with pieces missing from each puzzle to complete the picture.

 

Sometimes improvement by subtraction is a good thing, which we have seen in the past. In this case, there is not an real example of simple subtraction to change the team, nor a simple addition. There is a need to look at which puzzle pieces fit in the puzzle they want to assemble, find the missing pieces, the excess pieces and how to exchange the excess for the missing. I don't know which pieces are which, good thing I am neither the GM or coach.

 

Prospects who could make moves next season to the big club, or be used to get needed pieces include Dube (Bottom 6 C for now), Quine (Bottom 6 LC), Joly (RW may need AHL time). I don't see Phillips, Lomberg or Zavgorodniy seeing much NHL time as long as both Johnny and Mang are on the team. Add Czarnik and Ryan, the Flames already have 4 players 5'10 or smaller so unless they play really aggressive and physical, I don't see the Flames adding 5'7, 5'9 and 5'9 to the line up regardless of the skill. There might be a goalie who pushes enough to not re-sign Smith or not bring in a new tender but none of our prospects seem to have grabbed that opportunity yet.

 

Just my thoughts though.