2019 Playoffs: What have we learned?

[The_People1]

13 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

As the loss of the playoffs has worn off, I don't think we need to re-make this team. A big part of the playoffs is getting hot, but an even bigger part is getting the breaks.

 

As bad as the Flames played, they easily could have won 3 games.

 

If all we need to do is get hot going into the playoffs then it actually doesn't matter if we stand pat or blow it up. Why not blow it up?  All we need is to get hot at the right time.  It's all about getting breaks...?

[The_Tribal Chief]

To Get Break you gotta earn them they dont Come out of No where work hard get chances and then you get breaks when your being shut down by another team it doesnt matter cause the breaks arnt Enough to pull you out of it

[cccsberg]

13 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

You've always had a great attitude with a steady hand, and this is no exception, so full props.

 

Nor do I intend for...any of my posts to be popular, really.   this being no exception.  But,

 

Assuming a team builds itself out from its goaltender, to defence, and then forwards:

 

We have nothing in the way of a team-building goalie.  As you mentioned.

Our defence fell apart.  Maybe we have the right pieces maybe we don't.  But it was ineffective.

Our forwards were ineffective in playoff style hockey.

 

So, I always do actually appreciate your optimism.   But, that's  a 3 for 3 no-go.    I just can't call that close to the right mix.

 

It's...the opposite of the right mix.

 

What we do have, is some valuable pieces in the wrong places.

 

 

Sucks that we have to rebuild again, but it's not the end of the word and it's also inevitable.  Whether we do it now or 3 years from now.

 

Start from your goaltender.   We should be looking for that now.  And we need to be honest with ourselves about our development system for goalies.

 

Get that right, and we can say we've "started" a sensible rebuild process for the first time.

Between you and Travel-Dude, he is far closer to reality.  If we accept your take, Tampa, Washington, Toronto, Vegas and others all need to rebuild.  NOT!  In hockey, as in life, stuff happens... much is pure luck but you have to live with the consequences.  The Flames could have easily had a completely different outcome with 2-3 bounces going their way.  They didn’t, so how do we ensure it doesn’t happen next year?  We can’t... no one can.  

 

We definitely need to strengthen up a couple areas, and replace guys on the way out whether due to performance, contracts or chemistry... but come next Spring there are no guarantees.  That’s hockey.  

[travel_dude]

13 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

You've always had a great attitude with a steady hand, and this is no exception, so full props.

 

Nor do I intend for...any of my posts to be popular, really.   this being no exception.  But,

 

Assuming a team builds itself out from its goaltender, to defence, and then forwards:

 

We have nothing in the way of a team-building goalie.  As you mentioned.

Our defence fell apart.  Maybe we have the right pieces maybe we don't.  But it was ineffective.

Our forwards were ineffective in playoff style hockey.

 

So, I always do actually appreciate your optimism.   But, that's  a 3 for 3 no-go.    I just can't call that close to the right mix.

 

It's...the opposite of the right mix.

 

What we do have, is some valuable pieces in the wrong places.

 

 

Sucks that we have to rebuild again, but it's not the end of the word and it's also inevitable.  Whether we do it now or 3 years from now.

 

Start from your goaltender.   We should be looking for that now.  And we need to be honest with ourselves about our development system for goalies.

 

Get that right, and we can say we've "started" a sensible rebuild process for the first time.

 

I caution viewers that what we saw the last weeks before the playoffs and the playoff themselves is a good measure of this team.

Overreacting would be selling the farm because you had a frost that killed the crops the last weeks into harvest.

The crops were doing fine.

The farm manager thought the prized pumpkin (Smith) was the right choice to showcase.

He turned into a gourd.

He forgot to weed the fields.

The veggies themselves needed some attention.

 

Wow, that was weird.

I think you need to fix the goalie and add one RD, by way of moving out Brodie.

Perhaps upgrade Janko for a scoring C so you can bump Backlund to a shutdown line only.

Decide if Bennett will ever be anything more than a gritty player who shows up for 50% of the game in a positive way.

Replace Frolik with a RHS.

 

We don;t know what types of playoffs games the Flames can play.

We saw them struggle to play one type and that was not how they played those games any other time of the year.

We limped in, and let Smith set the game structure.

Very little was started by the D.

I don;t want to hear anything about Smith ever again, except that he's going to Toronto or EDM.

I want to hear about bringing in a guy that will take the reins for the future or battle with Rittich to get them.

[jjgallow]

7 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I caution viewers that what we saw the last weeks before the playoffs and the playoff themselves is a good measure of this team.

Overreacting would be selling the farm because you had a frost that killed the crops the last weeks into harvest.

The crops were doing fine.

The farm manager thought the prized pumpkin (Smith) was the right choice to showcase.

He turned into a gourd.

He forgot to weed the fields.

The veggies themselves needed some attention.

 

Wow, that was weird.

I think you need to fix the goalie and add one RD, by way of moving out Brodie.

Perhaps upgrade Janko for a scoring C so you can bump Backlund to a shutdown line only.

Decide if Bennett will ever be anything more than a gritty player who shows up for 50% of the game in a positive way.

Replace Frolik with a RHS.

 

We don;t know what types of playoffs games the Flames can play.

We saw them struggle to play one type and that was not how they played those games any other time of the year.

We limped in, and let Smith set the game structure.

Very little was started by the D.

I don;t want to hear anything about Smith ever again, except that he's going to Toronto or EDM.

I want to hear about bringing in a guy that will take the reins for the future or battle with Rittich to get them.

 

I will say this much, 

 

Our very opposing viewpoints arrive at the same conclusion on the next step:

 

Fix the goalie.

 

"It's all Sh***t, we need to fix the goalie"

"You're over-reacting, we need to fix the goalie"

 

When polar opposite perspectives (maybe that's an overly extreme statement) still manage to clearly arrive at the same conclusion, there's...  a real good case.. Several, real good cases, for that conclusion.

 

Now make it a young goalie with miles in the tank (I'm ok with two of them as well), and all bases and perspectives are covered.

[travel_dude]

12 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I will say this much, 

 

Our very opposing viewpoints arrive at the same conclusion on the next step:

 

Fix the goalie.

 

"It's all Sh***t, we need to fix the goalie"

"You're over-reacting, we need to fix the goalie"

 

When polar opposite perspectives (maybe that's an overly extreme statement) still manage to clearly arrive at the same conclusion, there's...  a real good case.. Several, real good cases, for that conclusion.

 

Now make it a young goalie with miles in the tank (I'm ok with two of them as well), and all bases and perspectives are covered.

 

I was never on the Smith train, even when he had a great start to the season two years ago.  I thought it was a mistake because it did nothing to address the problem.  I was meh about Hickey, but he was a young asset.  His fall from grade two seasons ago and bad start to this season should have been a wake up call that he was done.  Big freakin deal he won a bunch of games against non-playoff teams to recapture the net.

 

I liked Rittich, but was not sure he could rebound back from a harsh finish to 207/18.  A little worried that he was being coached into something he was not.  He got that out of his system and started strong.  Until they tried to "fix" him.  Then they gave him a rope equivalent in length to a loss.  I think he still has a decent future, but we gotta get rid of the elephant in the room.  JS.  How many goalies do you need to turn into waiver fodder?

 

So the cup winner went with a guy that played strong for them.  Zero NHL playoff experience.  What did we learn.  Nothing.  Play the guy that had a rough season and some playoff experience 7 years ago.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

So the cup winner went with a guy that played strong for them.  Zero NHL playoff experience.  What did we learn.  Nothing.  Play the guy that had a rough season and some playoff experience 7 years ago.

..

 

welllll...... 

 

Drafted and developed in-house, 

Not over-played  (just 32 games in regular season),

Actually, this is his Second playoff championship, he led his team to victory in the OHL

Young

 

It's not a shock, it's exactly what we've been begging the Flames to do.    Stop over-playing goalies, stop renting retirees, put together a development system, Look for players who raise the level of their game in the post season (rather than lower it).

 

Since the Flames have done none of these things, it is disheartening on next steps, perhaps.   And maybe they can acquire a solution.   But either way there is a lot to take away from this.  Just like, MOST years...and every year we have the same conversation and people say it is a "one-off"

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

..

 

welllll...... 

 

Drafted and developed in-house, 

Not over-played  (just 32 games in regular season),

Actually, this is his Second playoff championship, he led his team to victory in the OHL

Young

 

It's not a shock, it's exactly what we've been begging the Flames to do.    Stop over-playing goalies, stop renting retirees, put together a development system, Look for players who raise the level of their game in the post season (rather than lower it).

 

Since the Flames have done none of these things, it is disheartening on next steps, perhaps.   And maybe they can acquire a solution.   But either way there is a lot to take away from this.  Just like, MOST years...and every year we have the same conversation and people say it is a "one-off"

 

Are you talking about Smith?  He actually played 42 (started 40).  9 of his 23 wins came after Feb. 15th and of those, 4 were against playoff bound teams.  Seems like I'm missing your point right now, so I'll let it go.  

 

Rittich is probably the closest we have right now to a NHL goalie.  Would have like to see him get the shot in the playoffs to see if he could raise him level.  He did in important games in the season.  Not an in-house solution but developed in the AHL at least.

 

I'm interested to see where we go this summer.  Jarry, Subban, some other young guy that could be developed?  Or back to Filene's Basement for some bargains.  Factory seconds.  Out of style.  Hole in the trapper.  Spend a few bucks and get a goalie consultant.  Keep JS if you like but keep him away from development.

 

[phoenix66]

17 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I will say this much, 

 

Our very opposing viewpoints arrive at the same conclusion on the next step:

 

Fix the goalie.

 

"It's all Sh***t, we need to fix the goalie"

"You're over-reacting, we need to fix the goalie"

 

When polar opposite perspectives (maybe that's an overly extreme statement) still manage to clearly arrive at the same conclusion, there's...  a real good case.. Several, real good cases, for that conclusion.

 

Now make it a young goalie with miles in the tank (I'm ok with two of them as well), and all bases and perspectives are covered.

I get all you are saying but not sure you can use Binnington as an example of "how to " If anything hes further proof of Goalie Voodoo

Not 100% sure but i think he fell into the FA category of he would have been a UFA this summer due to low games played (like Stolarz in Edmonton) and probably been allowed to walk 

He was lightning in a bottle , 4th stringer the team had practically given up on .. got the call due to a string of injuries .. got hot 

No idea still if hes Matt Murray  or the Hamburglar..will have to wait to see what next season looks like 

This would be the exact same as us having to pull up Mason McDonald and the kid going off like the 2nd coming of Kipper 

[travel_dude]

41 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I get all you are saying but not sure you can use Binnington as an example of "how to " If anything hes further proof of Goalie Voodoo

Not 100% sure but i think he fell into the FA category of he would have been a UFA this summer due to low games played (like Stolarz in Edmonton) and probably been allowed to walk 

He was lightning in a bottle , 4th stringer the team had practically given up on .. got the call due to a string of injuries .. got hot 

No idea still if hes Matt Murray  or the Hamburglar..will have to wait to see what next season looks like 

This would be the exact same as us having to pull up Mason McDonald and the kid going off like the 2nd coming of Kipper 

 

At one point he was waived.

But, let's be realistic here.

JB has was coming off a .926 season last year and a .927 this year in the AHL.

His win percentage was over 60% the last three seasons.

You can't compare that to even a Gillies coming in.

Gillies is closer than MacDonald but not close to Binnington.

 

What I am getting at is that you can catch lightening in a bottle, but there has to be that proof of talent.

Miracles do happen, but there mostly has to be that winning pedigre first.

 

BTW, we are probably going to go sign Talbot as a backup.

Yikes.

Maybe with a decent defense, he is a good project.

If cheap, he's waiver fodder.

 

[phoenix66]

13 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

BTW, we are probably going to go sign Talbot as a backup.

Yikes.

Maybe with a decent defense, he is a good project.

If cheap, he's waiver fodder.

 

This just further makes picking a right goalie a crapshoot every time.. 2 years ago , everybody was scrambling to find the "Next Talbot" .. of all the names thrown around only Maybe Grubauer has lived up to it 

[jjgallow]

57 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

At one point he was waived.

But, let's be realistic here.

JB has was coming off a .926 season last year and a .927 this year in the AHL.

His win percentage was over 60% the last three seasons.

You can't compare that to even a Gillies coming in.

Gillies is closer than MacDonald but not close to Binnington.

 

Agreed, we can't compare Gillies to JB.    Have not been able to for a while.    

 

But, did both teams start out with roughly the same amount of raw talent at one time?   I think it's very possible.

 

I know that technically the Flames couldn't deal with Gillies in US college.   I know.  But, still......the fact a goalie that young developed a chronic, undiagnosed injury as a Flames draftee....it's a huge question mark on a Pile of other huge question marks of how they handle their goalie prospects.   And how they handled him after that, was worse.   They Need a development system for goalies soooo badly it's not even funny.,

 

57 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

What I am getting at is that you can catch lightening in a bottle, but there has to be that proof of talent.

Miracles do happen, but there mostly has to be that winning pedigre first.

 

Totally agree.  That winning pedigree cannot be taught from scratch, only instilled and reinforced.  Or rather, if they haven't learned it by draft day it's aweful hard to at that point.

 

57 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

BTW, we are probably going to go sign Talbot as a backup.

Yikes.

Maybe with a decent defense, he is a good project.

If cheap, he's waiver fodder.

 

I really, really, Do admire your optimism.  For real.  lol.   I only wish I had that in me.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

I get all you are saying but not sure you can use Binnington as an example of "how to " If anything hes further proof of Goalie Voodoo

Not 100% sure but i think he fell into the FA category of he would have been a UFA this summer due to low games played (like Stolarz in Edmonton) and probably been allowed to walk 

He was lightning in a bottle , 4th stringer the team had practically given up on .. got the call due to a string of injuries .. got hot 

No idea still if hes Matt Murray  or the Hamburglar..will have to wait to see what next season looks like 

This would be the exact same as us having to pull up Mason McDonald and the kid going off like the 2nd coming of Kipper 

 

It only appears that way, but the factors I brought up are incredibly statistically significant in Stanley Cup championship goalies.   The least significant being age, of course, but even that.    Pedigree, as TD pointed out, not being overplayed, in-house development, the Same points get brought up Every year.  Yes with different players and different circumstances.  Some years the goalie is obvious, some years they seem lucky.  But almost every year, the Same points get brought up.

 

The same points

 

And every year people say it's a one-off, as you are now, which I understand.   I can totally see why it appears that way.   But there is just a Mountain of evidence saying otherwise and it will just continue.  It's not all magic, there is a right way and a wrong way to have success in net.  We've Never followed any of the basics, and we've...never had success, since Kipper.  And even Kipper couldn't get us there as we consistently over-played him and failed to ever provide a worthy backup.

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, jjgallow said:

 

It only appears that way, but the factors I brought up are incredibly statistically significant in Stanley Cup championship goalies.   The least significant being age, of course, but even that.    Pedigree, as TD pointed out, not being overplayed, in-house development, the Same points get brought up Every year.  Yes with different players and different circumstances.  Some years the goalie is obvious, some years they seem lucky.  But almost every year, the Same points get brought up.

 

The same points

 

And every year people say it's a one-off, as you are now, which I understand.   I can totally see why it appears that way.   But there is just a Mountain of evidence saying otherwise and it will just continue.

oh I get it , I'm not even saying he's a one-off.. he many very well go on to be a premier goalie for years, and hope he does .. good for him .Just like Murray , got his shot and took full advantage of it .  I'm just saying even his own team didn't really believe in him. Just goes to show until you get them in the net at the NHL level you have no clue what you have . Mason McDonald could very well be the high prospect we thought he was when we drafted him..  but its gonna take a perfect storm to ever find that out 

[phoenix66]

15 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

   And how they handled him after that, was worse.   They Need a development system for goalies soooo badly it's not even funny.,

 

100% agree with this .. said it for awhile now .. it needs its own separate program from scouting on up .. until that happens ,this will continue on a large scale 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Agreed, we can't compare Gillies to JB.    Have not been able to for a while.    

 

But, did both teams start out with roughly the same amount of raw talent at one time?   I think it's very possible.

 

I know that technically the Flames couldn't deal with Gillies in US college.   I know.  But, still......the fact a goalie that young developed a chronic, undiagnosed injury as a Flames draftee....it's a huge question mark on a Pile of other huge question marks of how they handle their goalie prospects.   And how they handled him after that, was worse.   They Need a development system for goalies soooo badly it's not even funny.,

 

 

Totally agree.  That winning pedigree cannot be taught from scratch, only instilled and reinforced.  Or rather, if they haven't learned it by draft day it's aweful hard to at that point.

 

 

I really, really, Do admire your optimism.  For real.  lol.   I only wish I had that in me.

 

So, I was comparing his defense in EDM.

Yes we are much better than that sinkhole.

They are more of a goalie graveyard than us, but our problems stem from starting with a crap sandwich and calling it Subway.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

oh I get it , I'm not even saying he's a one-off.. he many very well go on to be a premier goalie for years, and hope he does .. good for him .Just like Murray , got his shot and took full advantage of it .  I'm just saying even his own team didn't really believe in him. Just goes to show until you get them in the net at the NHL level you have no clue what you have . Mason McDonald could very well be the high prospect we thought he was when we drafted him..  but its gonna take a perfect storm to ever find that out 

 

There needs to some demonstration of winning at some level.

Not there in junior.

Not in the WJC.

Not in the AHL.

One out of three years in the ECHL.

 

I'm not sure why they drafted him when they did.

Demko is at least looking like the level of Brossoit.

Sorokin hasn;t played a NHL game, but is killing it in the KHL.

He might never make it to NA, but he was far better leading up to the 2014 draft.

I won't go on about the others we chose in that draft and those that we passed on.

 

EDIT - don't mean to pile it on you.  Just fed up ith mssed opportunities and poor goalie choices (trade, draft or development).

[Horsman1]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

There needs to some demonstration of winning at some level.

Not there in junior.

Not in the WJC.

Not in the AHL.

One out of three years in the ECHL.

 

I'm not sure why they drafted him when they did.

Demko is at least looking like the level of Brossoit.

Sorokin hasn;t played a NHL game, but is killing it in the KHL.

He might never make it to NA, but he was far better leading up to the 2014 draft.

I won't go on about the others we chose in that draft and those that we passed on.

 

EDIT - don't mean to pile it on you.  Just fed up ith mssed opportunities and poor goalie choices (trade, draft or development).

i'd like to see some stats.. which teams selected the most goalies in the last 10 years.. which draft selection were they.. how many games have they played in NHL..  rank them which g.m. selected him and what scout was responsible for them being selected

 

 

[phoenix66]

26 minutes ago, Horsman1 said:

i'd like to see some stats.. which teams selected the most goalies in the last 10 years.. which draft selection were they.. how many games have they played in NHL..  rank them which g.m. selected him and what scout was responsible for them being selected

 

 

hmm.. you ve given me a project    may take awhile, but is is where I would start 

https://www.draftsite.com/nhl/draft-history/2018-2014/position/g/33/0/1/

 

 

[Cowtownguy]

On 6/17/2019 at 6:26 PM, Horsman1 said:

i'd like to see some stats.. which teams selected the most goalies in the last 10 years.. which draft selection were they.. how many games have they played in NHL..  rank them which g.m. selected him and what scout was responsible for them being selected

 

 

I would like to see what stats the NHL records generally. If they want this gambling deal to pay off, they had better do a thorough job. When teams like Tampa don't show up in the playoffs, it makes investors nervous. Parity is not desirable to them.

[Thebrewcrew]

Interested to see how the team adjusts next year. All season long it will be a "yeah, but" regardless of regular season. Thing is we still need to get in to the playoffs, it's not easy...

[jjgallow]

Zing....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4WXrfT2ILo

 

 

I love it, Kenan's absolutely right.   And these guys deserved it for even showing up to pick up that hardware in their fancy suits like they done real good.

 

Tampa thoroughly embarassed themselves and has a lot of work to do. 

 

It is...amazing....to see how Calgary and Tampa continue to parallel.    Both in victories, and in embarrassmets, they have narrowly out-down us by the thinest of margins.

 

 

I see so many comments on here about how we "need to forget" about he playoffs.

 

Forget about them now, and you can forget about them for a long time to come.  What we saw was systemic