Sam Bennett

[jjgallow]

11 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

i don’t think it is a lesson learned. I think they’re doing it with Valamaki right now. He needs all situations and fast paced tempo as a #1D in the A. 
a player as young as he is and the amount of development time he has lost due to injury really needs to be caught up on. He can’t do that as an NHLer.

 

I don't disagree, I was just trying to be positive.

 

It's not a strength of mine lol

[robrob74]

10 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I don't disagree, I was just trying to be positive.

 

It's not a strength of mine lol

 

hey! Apparently it’s me who can’t be.
 

It was a good deal and BT redeemed himself a bit today. For what Benny has given the Flames, they got a good return. 
 

I think they rode the assumption that he’d develop on his own and it just didn’t happen. I hope he can rekindle his spirit and game in Florida. 

[conundrumed]

Really excited for Bennett. Essentially 2 2nds to me means teams wanted him.

Glad it was Florida, their 1st LW is Duclair.

Barkov makes everyone better.

Mason Marchment is their roving LW.

Bennett will fit like a glove.

Fla quietly had a nice deadline. 

Montour due to Ekblad LTIR and Bennett.

He could play either of these:

Bennet-Barkov-Verhaghe 1st

Vatrano-Bennett-Acciari/Lomberg 3rd

Yes, Ryan Lomberg.

And he no doubt will do 2nd PP.

2 2nds for a player they needed is cheap.

Add Quenneville, I'm excited for Bennett 

Look at their roster. It was missing a Bennett.

Treliving needs to go. I knew his constant hardball contract negotiations would torment the environment eventually.

Here we are, dark days.

The work environment starts at the top.

Who are the Flames? A reflection of their manager. Give Neal's, Marksstrom's etc fat FA contracts, beat your core guys down in negotiations.

You reap what you've sewn.

He's gotta go.

And yes, Lomberg is an NHLer when you tell him to play hockey, not just always be a fireball.

So happy for Bennett, he'll be fine now out of a toxic environment.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

22 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Really excited for Bennett. Essentially 2 2nds to me means teams wanted him.

Glad it was Florida, their 1st LW is Duclair.

Barkov makes everyone better.

Mason Marchment is their roving LW.

Bennett will fit like a glove.

Fla quietly had a nice deadline. 

Montour due to Ekblad LTIR and Bennett.

He could play either of these:

Bennet-Barkov-Verhaghe 1st

Vatrano-Bennett-Acciari/Lomberg 3rd

Yes, Ryan Lomberg.

And he no doubt will do 2nd PP.

2 2nds for a player they needed is cheap.

Add Quenneville, I'm excited for Bennett 

Look at their roster. It was missing a Bennett.

Treliving needs to go. I knew his constant hardball contract negotiations would torment the environment eventually.

Here we are, dark days.

The work environment starts at the top.

Who are the Flames? A reflection of their manager. Give Neal's, Marksstrom's etc fat FA contracts, beat your core guys down in negotiations.

You reap what you've sewn.

He's gotta go.

And yes, Lomberg is an NHLer when you tell him to play hockey, not just always be a fireball.

So happy for Bennett, he'll be fine now out of a toxic environment.

Granted when it comes to contracts and roster building ya its all on BT. But Bennys mismanagement boiled down to utilization.  Drafted as a high pick center but continuously thrown on the left side with a  carousel of utility players, what was expected from that?  Most of that is on the parade of coaches.

[conundrumed]

9 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Granted when it comes to contracts and roster building ya its all on BT. But Bennys mismanagement boiled down to utilization.  Drafted as a high pick center but continuously thrown on the left side with a  carousel of utility players, what was expected from that?  Most of that is on the parade of coaches.

That doesn't explain away Gio, Gaudreau, Tkachuk holdouts.

Then overpaying FAs relentlessly.

 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

17 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

That doesn't explain away Gio, Gaudreau, Tkachuk holdouts.

Then overpaying FAs relentlessly.

 

True but theres not very many GMs in the league that havent had some issues re-signing players or throwing $ at FAs.  I dont really think the Flames are any better or worse in either of those regards.

[89Again]

12 hours ago, CheersMan said:

Writing was on the wall for Sam a long time. He left the org saying nothing but good things about it, the org had nothing but good things to say publicly about Sam. The split couldn't have gone better. Full marks to both sides for taking the high road on this one and looking like a professionals. Flames got a nice return. Sam gets an opportunity elsewhere.

 

My advice to Sam would be to leave his gloves on until after he gets a new contract. The last thing FLO needs is Sam gone with a broker finger, minus 2 second round picks and nothing to show for it.

 

 

Fully agree, Sam always tried to do everything for the team.  He needs to continue focusing on his hockey skills and speed while staying away from fights where possible.  Hopefully Florida gives him that chance.  

[CheersMan]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Really excited for Bennett. Essentially 2 2nds to me means teams wanted him.

Glad it was Florida, their 1st LW is Duclair.

Barkov makes everyone better.

Mason Marchment is their roving LW.

Bennett will fit like a glove.

Fla quietly had a nice deadline. 

Montour due to Ekblad LTIR and Bennett.

He could play either of these:

Bennet-Barkov-Verhaghe 1st

Vatrano-Bennett-Acciari/Lomberg 3rd

Yes, Ryan Lomberg.

And he no doubt will do 2nd PP.

2 2nds for a player they needed is cheap.

Add Quenneville, I'm excited for Bennett 

Look at their roster. It was missing a Bennett.

Treliving needs to go. I knew his constant hardball contract negotiations would torment the environment eventually.

Here we are, dark days.

The work environment starts at the top.

Who are the Flames? A reflection of their manager. Give Neal's, Marksstrom's etc fat FA contracts, beat your core guys down in negotiations.

You reap what you've sewn.

He's gotta go.

And yes, Lomberg is an NHLer when you tell him to play hockey, not just always be a fireball.

So happy for Bennett, he'll be fine now out of a toxic environment.

 

31 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

That doesn't explain away Gio, Gaudreau, Tkachuk holdouts.

Then overpaying FAs relentlessly.

 

BT is not going anywhere, nor should he.

FA’s have been getting over paid across every sports league since the beginning of time, nothing new there.

SB is going to FLO to be SB. He will never live up to his 4OA selection. Thank goodness BT resisted signing SB long term when other teams were giving out 6x6 to kids like bags of candy.

SB and Lomberg are going to rip it up, yeah!

I do wish the best for SB though. The Flames should be getting credit for nurtured him into the man he is today. But no, we want to talk about over paying FA's.

[conundrumed]

13 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

 

BT is not going anywhere, nor should he.

FA’s have been getting over paid across every sports league since the beginning of time, nothing new there.

SB is going to FLO to be SB. He will never live up to his 4OA selection. Thank goodness BT resisted signing SB long term when other teams were giving out 6x6 to kids like bags of candy.

SB and Lomberg are going to rip it up, yeah!

I do wish the best for SB though. The Flames should be getting credit for nurtured him into the man he is today. But no, we want to talk about over paying FA's.

So you enjoy this direction?

There are a ton of good managers. 

Putting it in perspective, how many teams have had their star dman, star playmaker and star young guy have to holdout?

Until he relents?

We're not married to Treliving.

He gets an extension and then DS is back. lol

This should be fun.

BT will be gone is my guess. 

I'm sure Sutter's here for ownership advice.

Thank Christ.

How many years of BT are you willing to accept?

This is one scattered team.

Detroit's my other team and I feel better about them than the Flames.

He's taken us from rebuild to rebuild imho.

[conundrumed]

Oh, not to hijack Sam's thread. Bennett and Lomberg are on a playoff team.

So you'll be able to stop scoffing at them when you see them then.😃

[cross16]

46 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

So you enjoy this direction?

There are a ton of good managers. 

Putting it in perspective, how many teams have had their star dman, star playmaker and star young guy have to holdout?

Until he relents?

 

 

I'm assuming you mean Gio here? Gio hasn't held out under Treliving that was Sutter. Treliving extended Gio a full year before he was set to become a UFA. 

 

Last year the Lightning had Brayden Point hold out until training camp only to have him come back on a short term deal. Didn't seem to impact that culture. It's becoming very common to have these young RFAs unsigned into training camp. 

 

 

[sak22]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

That doesn't explain away Gio, Gaudreau, Tkachuk holdouts.

Then overpaying FAs relentlessly.

 

As pointed out Gio never held out, Gaudreau only had 2 seasons under his belt, and Tkachuk was towing the same line as Point, Marner, and Rantanen.  If their play is based on their negotiations I'll be glad when they are gone as the others haven't slipped.  Also the 4 highest contracts given by BT in terms of cap hit were Tkachuk, Gio, Gaudreau and Monahan, so 5 and 6 were UFA's but that's really it, Brouwer and Tanev were less than he signed Brodie, Lindholm, Hanifin and Andersson

[ABC923]

I always liked Sam, but I wouldn’t put money on him playing top line minutes with Barkov. Maybe with better development he could’ve been something more than a bottom 6, but some of that is on the player too. He still takes bad penalties, he still tries to stick handle through multiple guys to get to the net, and he still doesn’t use his line mates enough. He’s effective when crashing the net and picking up garbage and plays with tons of heart when it matters most, but we just don’t see that enough unfortunately. Also he’s a better C than winger, so I hope he can slot in to 3C in Florida for his sake.

[sak22]

14 minutes ago, ABC923 said:

I always liked Sam, but I wouldn’t put money on him playing top line minutes with Barkov. Maybe with better development he could’ve been something more than a bottom 6, but some of that is on the player too. He still takes bad penalties, he still tries to stick handle through multiple guys to get to the net, and he still doesn’t use his line mates enough. He’s effective when crashing the net and picking up garbage and plays with tons of heart when it matters most, but we just don’t see that enough unfortunately. Also he’s a better C than winger, so I hope he can slot in to 3C in Florida for his sake.

I think this is blown out because of reputation.  He had 19 PIMs this year including a major, taken less minor penalties than Lindholm, Backlund, Tkachuk, Mangiapane, and Lucic for forwards, I'd say those guys have taken their fair share of bad penalties Sam was just under a microscope to some, but it really was an area that IMO improved the last couple years.

[conundrumed]

When you think of Barkov, think of Panarin at C.

I could possibly score 10 just from them banking it off of me. lol

Barkov and Huberdeau each at $5.8.

Tell me again where the Flames are heading?

Trade JG, Monahan?

Maybe it's not the players, is worth asking.

BT is a good Asst GM, imho.

It's an absolute mess he's made.

We have the guys.

He can't fit the pieces.

That's on him.

Repeat. Lomberg is 3rd line LW for FLA.

Why let him go and sign 2 more?

I know you can't be everyone's buddy managing. But damn, stick to your guys, they are your responsibility.

How it's not okay for me to call out the GM for this lethal environment of a team is a bit beyond me.

I'll be cheering for FLA in the playoffs.

 

 

 

 

[travel_dude]

I'm going to take a sit back and watch approach with Bennett and our return on the deal.

As good as he was in the playoffs last year, in his contract year last time he was unable to improve his showing.

He got a deal based on what he showed; not enough growth to warrant a long term deal, not big enough numbers to get a big raise.

This year, he regressed, another contract year.

 

A lot of this points to improper usage by coaches to the point where he never really had steady linemates other than Janko and maybe Granlund.

Under Sutter, perhaps he was turning the corner, but it was really too late to figure it out.

He was not a better C than the top 3 C's we had deployed, and it was a waste using him as #3 RW or #4C.

 

Maybe he gets the chance in FLA to turn his game around.  Good opportunity to show he is a playoff performer.

Give them a reason to re-sign and protect him.  

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

When you think of Barkov, think of Panarin at C.

I could possibly score 10 just from them banking it off of me. lol

Barkov and Huberdeau each at $5.8.

Tell me again where the Flames are heading?

Trade JG, Monahan?

Maybe it's not the players, is worth asking.

BT is a good Asst GM, imho.

It's an absolute mess he's made.

We have the guys.

He can't fit the pieces.

That's on him.

Repeat. Lomberg is 3rd line LW for FLA.

Why let him go and sign 2 more?

I know you can't be everyone's buddy managing. But damn, stick to your guys, they are your responsibility.

How it's not okay for me to call out the GM for this lethal environment of a team is a bit beyond me.

I'll be cheering for FLA in the playoffs.

 

 

 

 

 

I think it's fair to call out the GM for mistakes made; coaching, trading picks away, some FA signings.

Did he try to upgrade the team (Brodie for Kadri, somebody for PLD)?

Not sure what he will do to fix the team.

Is Gaudreau or Monahan the problem, or did he fail to get a C or RW to improve the top 6?

Playoff fails are on the GM and coach almost as much as the players.

But we are also talking about a limited sample.

Last year, some poor decisions made to go with one goalie until it was too late, and questionable calls prior.

The year before slipping into the playoffs and getting destroyed by a team that fought their way in.

 

I'm sure a lot of fans will be as fed up if we trade Monahan, Gaudreau or Tkachuk this summer, as if we don't trade them.

3 players that could make you a good team if they were surround by other good players.

Or they are the problem with the team in which case you re-tool.

I frankly don't know which it is.

Lucic playing 15 minutes a night, and you get 12 good ones from him.

Backlund as a shutdown C, but he's used the 3rd most of the available C's.

Mangiapane, one of the most electric player, used mostly on the 3rd line.

Ritchie, Simon, etc used in the top 6.

Gio-Ras kept together for closer to 40 games when it was apparent that the pair was struggling.

 

Seems like coaching is still an issue, but I think it's just that you can't re-make the team in the middle of a losing season.

The time to change the style is in the summer.

 

[The_People1]

37 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

When you think of Barkov, think of Panarin at C.

I could possibly score 10 just from them banking it off of me. lol

Barkov and Huberdeau each at $5.8.

Tell me again where the Flames are heading?

Trade JG, Monahan?

Maybe it's not the players, is worth asking.

BT is a good Asst GM, imho.

It's an absolute mess he's made.

We have the guys.

He can't fit the pieces.

That's on him.

Repeat. Lomberg is 3rd line LW for FLA.

Why let him go and sign 2 more?

I know you can't be everyone's buddy managing. But damn, stick to your guys, they are your responsibility.

How it's not okay for me to call out the GM for this lethal environment of a team is a bit beyond me.

I'll be cheering for FLA in the playoffs.

 

We need more RHS RW in the lineup.  Otherwise, we can't fit the pieces.

 

Generally I agree though.  BT with cap space is the scariest thing ever.  He will nickle and dime the RFAs and then mindlessly throw money away on UFAs.

 

Kylington was making strides last year.  But let's bring in Gustafson to jam Kylington's development.  And then let's not bring back Gustafson.

[cross16]

37 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

When you think of Barkov, think of Panarin at C.

I could possibly score 10 just from them banking it off of me. lol

Barkov and Huberdeau each at $5.8.

Tell me again where the Flames are heading?

Trade JG, Monahan?

Maybe it's not the players, is worth asking.

BT is a good Asst GM, imho.

It's an absolute mess he's made.

We have the guys.

He can't fit the pieces.

That's on him.

Repeat. Lomberg is 3rd line LW for FLA.

Why let him go and sign 2 more?

I know you can't be everyone's buddy managing. But damn, stick to your guys, they are your responsibility.

How it's not okay for me to call out the GM for this lethal environment of a team is a bit beyond me.

I'll be cheering for FLA in the playoffs.

 

 

 

 

 

I think criticism is more than fair but should that criticism not be on fair grounds? It seems to me Treliving's negotiation style if more than common around the league so why has it created a "lethal environment" here but other teams it isn't an issue? Lethal environment also sounds pretty unfair to me.

 

Criticism is more than ok as is wanting him gone. I blame the players personally but to each their own on that one. I just think criticism and blame should be on fair grounds and i'm not seeing how it's fair to blame him for situations that didn't happen (Gio holding out) or situations that don't seem to impact other teams (ie the long list of players who have held out as RFAs).

[conundrumed]

14 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I think criticism is more than fair but should that criticism not be on fair grounds? It seems to me Treliving's negotiation style if more than common around the league so why has it created a "lethal environment" here but other teams it isn't an issue? Lethal environment also sounds pretty unfair to me.

 

Criticism is more than ok as is wanting him gone. I blame the players personally but to each their own on that one. I just think criticism and blame should be on fair grounds and i'm not seeing how it's fair to blame him for situations that didn't happen (Gio holding out) or situations that don't seem to impact other teams (ie the long list of players who have held out as RFAs).

I've always respected your opinions

But why are you giving him a pass?

This is his monster.

Do you want him to try again?

[pikey7883]

19 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I've always respected your opinions

But why are you giving him a pass?

This is his monster.

Do you want him to try again?

I think some of us that give him a pass is because all GMs make mistakes, whether it’s UFA signings or bad draft picks, all of them have some black marks.

For me I want my management to also show progression in there job, similar to the players. And this past year I have seen some good improvements. His UFA signings were about addressing weaknesses on this team with Goaltending and a Solid D man (instead of the shiny things like Neal). This TDL he made some great trades in a tough market, and changed two guys who were not part of the long term plan into a good prospect and 3 picks. In other years he has traded our picks for subpar players. Also I think he has always done a good job re-signing our own players, even playing hardball with some of them. 
I still critique some of his decisions like you, and like all fans we are left scratching our heads at times. But my reasons above are why I’m giving him a pass to see what he can do with Sutter behind the bench. 

[robrob74]

17 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I've always respected your opinions

But why are you giving him a pass?

This is his monster.

Do you want him to try again?

 

 

I really do think that there's a miss-mash of a lot of players. They have drafted average-more skilled small forwards. The three that try the hardest consistently are Ryan, Mangiapane, and Dube. Dube needs to be on a 3rd line, Mangiapane can play up to 2nd line and will thrive IF the other two are slotted properly on the 2nd line. 

 

Bennett was mismanaged. How much of that is Bennett, how much of that is on the coaches, how much of that is on the GM? I am not sure. I place blame on all three. If I were BT I would have sent Bennett down. I'd not have kept Kylington up for so long and sitting for two seasons, and I'd have put Valamaki in the AHL to play his high speed tempo game and allow him to learn from his mistakes. If he makes a mistake in the NHL he gets sat and his confidence gets shot. 

 

It happened to Bennett, it is happening to Dube and now it's happening to Valamaki. I am not saying that Dube or Valamaki are not NHLers, just that if they want to develop players to play certain roles, they need to do it away from the NHL. Play them in the role they want them to. Mangiapane beat out Bennett. But he also played down the lineup and earned his time up the lineup. So why are they playing Dube on the 1st line? They should have played him with Bennett and Lucic to start the year, the same way they finished last year. There was already proven chemistry. It was not broke. Instead, they kept moving Bennett around and now have put Dube in a precarious position where his confidence might end up shot, much like Benny. 

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, pikey7883 said:

I think some of us that give him a pass is because all GMs make mistakes, whether it’s UFA signings or bad draft picks, all of them have some black marks.

For me I want my management to also show progression in there job, similar to the players. And this past year I have seen some good improvements. His UFA signings were about addressing weaknesses on this team with Goaltending and a Solid D man (instead of the shiny things like Neal). This TDL he made some great trades in a tough market, and changed two guys who were not part of the long term plan into a good prospect and 3 picks. In other years he has traded our picks for subpar players. Also I think he has always done a good job re-signing our own players, even playing hardball with some of them. 
I still critique some of his decisions like you, and like all fans we are left scratching our heads at times. But my reasons above are why I’m giving him a pass to see what he can do with Sutter behind the bench. 

 

 

I think he has done an ok to good job drafting. At least it seems better than before. And like many have said, they've not only drafted smaller players, which it seems like it because they're the ones who have progressed to the NHL. So they've done good at scouting a certain player type, but I find the scouting is falling short in some other areas. Is that GM? Probably not, but he gets the credit when the team drafts well. 

 

Scouting players:

 

They've hit on Andersson (good 2nd pair RSD)

Mangiapane (good 2/3 line LW) His numbers are great, but I would prefer him as a 3rd liner who could play up in a pinch. 

Dube - I think is a 2/3 line LW, Like Mangiapane, 

Kylington - Should be a 3rd Pair, needed more development to up his game, low hockey-IQ or lacks a lot of confidence as his skills seem to be there. 

Tkachuk - No Brainer

Monahan - No Brainer

Gaudfreau - Small player with elite skating and skill, good wait to draft

Bennett - No Brainer

Valamaki - Needs further development and has decent size.

 

Of course not all are BT picks, but the scouting. I get they have to be credited for Monny, Bennett and Tkachuk, but you look at all of the other hits in the forward group of late and they're all smaller skilled players. Monahan has finally stopped playing smaller, but his game also regressed in the process. 

Valamaki is a good start, and I hope that the Zary gamble pays off. There are a lot of NHLers there, but they're all of a certain ilk. Smaller. I hope the Benny trade will get us a good energy guy that makes it to the NHL. 

 

[travel_dude]

18 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

It happened to Bennett, it is happening to Dube and now it's happening to Valamaki. I am not saying that Dube or Valamaki are not NHLers, just that if they want to develop players to play certain roles, they need to do it away from the NHL. Play them in the role they want them to. Mangiapane beat out Bennett. But he also played down the lineup and earned his time up the lineup. So why are they playing Dube on the 1st line? They should have played him with Bennett and Lucic to start the year, the same way they finished last year. There was already proven chemistry. It was not broke. Instead, they kept moving Bennett around and now have put Dube in a precarious position where his confidence might end up shot, much like Benny. 

 

I think both Dube and Valimaki are being evaluated right now to see if they need further development or just monitoring.

I'm against sitting the players if the coach feels they need to work on play, as there is no benefit to doing nothing to improve.

I actually thought that playing with Monahan and Mangiapane was a decent use of Dube.

Valimaki playing with Stone isn't the worse thing for him; it allows him to focus on puck moving.

 

Neither IMHO is going to learn that much in the AHL.  Kylington should because he is doing nothing to improve.

Almost like they are hiding him from Seattle.  

[cross16]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

I've always respected your opinions

But why are you giving him a pass?

This is his monster.

Do you want him to try again?

 

Well what is giving him a pass? he has faults here for sure but am I giving him a pass just because I don't think he should lose his job? I think there are mistakes he has made absolutely that are partly to blame for this I just don't think it should all be put on his shoulders. 

 

Here is where I stand with Treliving. There are valid reasons for people to want him gone and those are fair. I can get behind people that don't like the way he's built the team or the type of player he's gone after and I can understand there are also people that believe in results and that results should be the ultimate factor (ie bad results = fired). There are fair points there and I certainly would not campaign aggressively that you shouldn't move on. 

 

But for me when it comes to why are the Flames were they are today the problems I see don't start with the GM, they start with the players and perhaps ownership. Did Treliving deal away too many picks, no question. But my question there is was that his doing or is this an organization mindset that we have to be doing everything it takes to win every year?

Was hiring Geoff Ward a big mistake? yes IMO it was but again what's the backstory here? Was he actually Treliving's choice or was that the more affordable option after it seems Sutter said no?

IMO the biggest reason the Flames are stuck this year is Monahan, Gaudreau and Tkachuk have all either plateaued or in many cases taken a step backwards in their performance. I don't think the GM is at fault for that. I can get behind the rationale of well he should have seen this coming and traded them either last summer or years ago. It's a fair comment but at the same time can we really blame him for this if we don't know the offers that were made? Most of the rumors that I heard involving Monahan last summer would have made this place erupt if he pulled the trigger. 

 

with Treliving, I generally see a GM that is moving things in the right direction, has the right process or idea behind his moves and is targeting the right players. Results aren't there but I see mostly factors outside of his control that have influenced that. I will admit though if i'm wrong about how this organization operates than perhaps I could be influenced differently, but I don't suspect I am. 

 

Gone on a bit of a rant here and problem the wrong thread to do this in too, but as a closing thought here on the GM. The Flames have been around for 40 years now and Treliving is the 2nd best GM they've ever had. So part of my thinking is why would we expect a new GM to behavior differently than this one and two do we really think they are going to hire a better one?

 

Yes i am ok with him staying but I do understand the other side of this too.