Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[cross16]

To add to my last post a huge plus I will say about Treliving is he has a lot of confidence and guts that he knows his plans and to stick to it. It took a lot of guts to trade Glencross at the deadline and not get a roster player in return. His captain was out for the season and he traded one of the veteran leaders in his team for draft picks and didn't replace him. He brought in Schlemko yes so it wasn't a total loss but I think he showed a lot of guys to stick to his plan and to believe in his team when popular opinion was the flames had to add. The biggest problem I had with Feaster was I don't think he ever had a plan and he didn't seem to stick to certain beliefs or opinions he had. Treliving has the guts to make a very tough call but also has the personality to be the first in the dressing room to congratulate his players. It is early, but I just have a feeling that we are going to be very pleased with the tenure of Mr. Treliving.

[CheersMan]

To add to my last post a huge plus I will say about Treliving is he has a lot of confidence and guts that he knows his plans and to stick to it. It took a lot of guts to trade Glencross at the deadline and not get a roster player in return. His captain was out for the season and he traded one of the veteran leaders in his team for draft picks and didn't replace him. He brought in Schlemko yes so it wasn't a total loss but I think he showed a lot of guys to stick to his plan and to believe in his team when popular opinion was the flames had to add. The biggest problem I had with Feaster was I don't think he ever had a plan and he didn't seem to stick to certain beliefs or opinions he had. Treliving has the guts to make a very tough call but also has the personality to be the first in the dressing room to congratulate his players. It is early, but I just have a feeling that we are going to be very pleased with the tenure of Mr. Treliving.

 

Last year BB miscalculated at the TDL and ended up letting Cammy walking for zip in the off season.  That is not very good asset management.  How do you suppose this management would look if they again let another asset (GlenX) walk for zip the following year?  There would be heads rolling, because I’d want one, and probably both.

 

The pieces that BT has added (in his short time here) have been average at best.  I pointed this out at the All-Star break in one of these threads.  The pieces that are contributing the most to this years success were here prior to BT’s arrival……thank you Jay. 

 

It’s still too early to be crediting of discrediting BT for anything.  In the meantime, it would not be entirely inappropriate if BT offered to press coach Hartley’s suit coats prior to each day’s media scrum. 

 

No disrespect to BT, but his showtime is fast approaching this offseason.  Let’s see what this team looks like on opening day in Oct.

[Ameter]

I'm sorry you think that my ratings are terrible but we're assessing the RESULTS of these trades, not the potential.

 

Funny, I thought you were rating the GM's decisions. Since he doesn't know the future, it's unfair to use the future to grade against him. What you should be grading on is whether the decision was the right one to make given the information available at the time.

 

As for Ortio, what makes you think Ortio would sign for 4y at a discount, when he knows in 2y he can command much more? Contracts aren't decided unilaterally.

[kehatch]

Player re-signings / subtractions

• Byron 1 x 0.6
• Hanowski 1 x 0.9
• Colborne 2 x 1.3
• Ortio 2 x 1.2
• Bennett 3 x 0.9
• Cundari 1 x 0.7
• Bouma 1 x 0.8
• Brodie 5 x 4.6
• Bought out O'Brien, compliance buy out
• Did not sign Cammalleri, Street, Jones, MacDonald, Butler Smith, Galiardi

He gets a solid B for me here.  He smartly avoided overpaying Cammalleri and he signed Brodie to a long term value contract.  Those were the only two moves of significance.  

 

Free Agents and Additions

• Raymond 3 x 3.2
• Hiller 2 x 4.5
• Engelland 3 x 2.9
• Setoguchi 1 x 0.8
• Potter 1 x 0.7
• Diaz 1 x 0.7
• Schlemko (waivers)
• Morrison 2 x ? (ELC)

I give him a C here.  Setoguchi and Potter are both poor players but they are low hit low risk contracts and he got a serviceable player in Diaz and Schlemko.  You aren't going to hit on all of those.  I really like the Morrison pick up.  Hiller has had a major positive impact.  We aren't in the playoffs without that pick up.  

 

On the other hand Raymond and Engelland are marginal players signed to contracts with too much cap and too much term.  To their credit we probably aren't in the playoffs without bringing on these players or similar players to fill the role.  Treliving also couldn't know how effective our top 4D were going to be or the immediate impact Gaudreau was going to have.  But overpaying marginal players isn't a smart move.  Hopefully we can chalk this up to rookie learning.  

 

The Draft

• 4 - Bennett
• 34 - McDonald
• 54 - Smith
• 64 - Hickey
• 175 - Mattsson
• 184 - Carroll

It's way to early to rule on this.  But I like the early returns.  Bennett was the obvious choice, but it looks like a winner all the same.  I liked the Smith pick-up at the time, though he isn't putting up the type of numbers I was hoping for.  I really like the Hickey pick though and I think Mattsson could be a good later round pick.  Carroll has also already earned an NHL contract. That is a win for a 7 rounder.  I give him a tentative A for this draft.  Understanding we won't actually know how successful it is for a few more seasons.  

 

Trades

• 3-round pick (CGY) for (CHI) Bollig
• Knight (CGY) for (FLO) Shore
• Glencross (CGY) for (WSH) 2-round and 3 round pick
• Baertschi (CGY) for (VAN) 2-round pick

I give him a light B in this area.  Shore is an upgrade on Knight.  He also got a really good return for Glencross.  I don't like the Baertschi trade, especially to a rival.  I would have preferred to see him increase his value in the AHL and tried to trade him at the draft.  I don't like Bollig and wasting a pick for a bottom line slugger is always bad policy IMO.  

 

Other points

• He has shown guts in waiving players like McGrattan and Setoguchi
• Treliving smartly was a light seller at the deadline.  He stuck to his guns that this is a rebuild but he didn't gut the team. 
• I don't like the constant up and down of some prospects (Baertschi, Poirier, Wotherspoon).  Especially when they are called up to sit the bench or play in a limited role.  
• Retaining Hartley was smart
• I don't like the lack of success on the farm team.  They needed to do a better job of bringing on some support players.  
• On the other hand, having the AHL team play the same system as the big team has made the transition of the prospects much smoother.  
• The culture has been really solid and he plays a part in that. 
• I like his thought style.  I like how he speaks.  I love that he seems to be sticking to the plan and he isn't jumping on the bandwagon to rush the rebuild.  

Lets call these intangibles.  I give him a B+

 

Overall

• Signings - B 
• Free Agents - C
• Draft - A
• Trades - B
• Intangibles - B+

Overall I give him a B+.  I am biased to some extent.  I haven't always liked the results, but I trust the guy and I trust the plan.  I like what he says and what he appears to be trying to do.  My biggest issues with him were the Engelland and Raymond contracts along with the Bollig trade.  These were done early.  Just about everything since has been really solid.  

[Khrox]

The season still isn't over, especially since the playoffs are about to start next week. Bollig and Engelland could easily up their value in the playoffs, especially as the games get more physical and (has been pointed out in another thread, not sure if it was here or on HF) that the game tends to slow down a bit and less of a run-and-gun mindset which plays to the strengths of Bolls and Engs (yes the games are still fast paced, but players do tend to pace themselves more knowing how tight-checking and long the playoffs can be, which is where it tends to slow down a bit, especially in the later rounds if we can get there).

We overpaid for Engelland and Raymond for sure, but the upside to that is we kept the contracts short (which is something Treliving said he was willing to do. Basically pay a premium for shorter 2-3 year contracts instead of lower cap hit but 5-6 year contracts). The Raymond gamble was a decent one, partially to create some LW competition, to help make us a faster team, to help replace Cammi's scoring (lets be honest, I really doubt any of us saw this many people having career years or Johnny Gaudreau to be 60+ points and in the 25 goal range, while having 2 30+ goal scorers), and because it is very hard for him to make us worse while having a good chance at making us better. The Seto gamble wasn't the best, but it wasn't that bad either. It was a really low cost, a RW (something we don't have a lot of) and gave him a chance. A change of scenery to a team that is admittedly rebuilding and willing to give a chance to someone who will work for it is what a player on the downward swing needs. It wasn't that long ago he was a rather good goal-scorer. Did it work out? Not at all. Did it hurt our chances? Not really. If he had scored a goal or two it might have won us an extra game, but at the same time, he didn't really hurt the team a whole lot (his icetime wasn't that high, and from what I've read, he worked really hard and gave a solid effort in practice. That work ethic he was still bringing would have been a positive influence on some of the younger guys, maybe helped them work even harder to pass him on depth). And if Addy doesn't make it, his playoff experience could come in handy as a Black Ace and help keep the younger guys level, he could still have some potential value there (and who knows, some freak decision could make Hartley put him in, and he scores a GWG in game 7 of the cup final, and everyone forgets how bad his season was at the beginning).

[cross16]

Last year BB miscalculated at the TDL and ended up letting Cammy walking for zip in the off season.  That is not very good asset management.  How do you suppose this management would look if they again let another asset (GlenX) walk for zip the following year?  There would be heads rolling, because I’d want one, and probably both.

 

The pieces that BT has added (in his short time here) have been average at best.  I pointed this out at the All-Star break in one of these threads.  The pieces that are contributing the most to this years success were here prior to BT’s arrival……thank you Jay. 

 

It’s still too early to be crediting of discrediting BT for anything.  In the meantime, it would not be entirely inappropriate if BT offered to press coach Hartley’s suit coats prior to each day’s media scrum. 

 

No disrespect to BT, but his showtime is fast approaching this offseason.  Let’s see what this team looks like on opening day in Oct.

Last TDL was completely different as they were in full sell mode with no playoff chances and the flames didn't move Cammy because they got no good offers. It sounds like if they would have moved Cammy it would have been for something around a 3rd round pick. He market just wasn't there for him.

Letting glencross walk could easily have been justified simply by arguing that keeping glencross was necessary to get into th playoffs and give the the best chance in the playoffs. It's easy to say otherwise now but at the time not everyone was on board trading glencross and then not adding any other pieces. Most people were ok trading glencross so long as the return was right and they got someone to come in and bolster the team. Treliving believed in his guys and his room and that took guts.

Treliving, Feaster and Sutter all take credit for where the team is right now. This team isn't in the playoffs without brodie or Giordano and Sutter brought in both and this team isn't in the playoffs without Hiller who BT brought in. Heck, I'm not sure the flames are in the playoffs without singing Engelkand either because of how solid he's played in Gio's absence. Of course BTs work is still to come but I think you are selling him short.

[MAC331]

A lot of the answers that evolved through this season were not there last offseason leading into this year. Setogucci was signed because of our lack on RW, my only complaint was there had to be someone better than him, FAIL

On RW, Hudler has been exceptional, Jones has stayed healthy and performed well, Jooris and Colborne have been versatile enough to help.

BTW could we get McGrattan back for the Vancouver series. LOL

 

I think all of Raymond, Bollig, Engelland may be a tad overpaid but we needed these players to shore up the areas of weakness until either certain players develop or others are traded for to further advance the plan.

[cross16]

I don't think the Raymond signing is as bad as people think. Yes he disappears for stretches, knew that when we signed him so that shouldn't be a surprise, but he's added a lot of speed to the depth of this lineup. Now the Flames can roll 3 lines and play an up-tempo, quick transition game on all lines except basically the 4th line. His stats are not that impressive and of course he is overpaid but I think the depth option and what he's done for the overall speed of this team can't be overlooked and right now, and even next season I might add, I'm not sure there is a player coming that can bring his level of speed to the left side.

 

There is no question BT overpaid guys to come here i'll never dispute that but every team is going to have overpaid guys. However, I think all the players that BT brought in still had a positive impact on this team and they also don't hurt the club long term. None of these guys are going to prevent the Flames from re-signing key players or being active in improving the team.

[MAC331]

I agree cross, I actually like Raymond for this team. I believe the set up is good heading into next year with the answers we have coming out of this year. Couple of things curtailed Raymond, he started gangbusters then got hurt and when he came back he found himself in a shuffle with Glencross for playing time. I have said this before but I think we would all be surprised by positive production if he were allowed regular playing time on the 2nd line.

[travel_dude]

I don't think the Raymond signing is as bad as people think. Yes he disappears for stretches, knew that when we signed him so that shouldn't be a surprise, but he's added a lot of speed to the depth of this lineup. Now the Flames can roll 3 lines and play an up-tempo, quick transition game on all lines except basically the 4th line. His stats are not that impressive and of course he is overpaid but I think the depth option and what he's done for the overall speed of this team can't be overlooked and right now, and even next season I might add, I'm not sure there is a player coming that can bring his level of speed to the left side.

 

There is no question BT overpaid guys to come here i'll never dispute that but every team is going to have overpaid guys. However, I think all the players that BT brought in still had a positive impact on this team and they also don't hurt the club long term. None of these guys are going to prevent the Flames from re-signing key players or being active in improving the team.

I don't think Raymond is any better all round than Byron. Byron has speed and hits/blocks, but isn't finishing. Raymond has speed and finish. If you like Raymond, then Sven was a similar player. Sven at least has ability to grow as a player.

[kehatch]

I don't like Engelland, but I get the need. Raymond was unnecessary. There were plenty of other options that weren't going to cost us that kind of contract.

I also don't like the player. If he isn't scoring he isn't helping. And he disappears for weeks at a time.

[robrob1974]

I agree with Kehatch on Raymond, and he's always been that kind of player. 

[cross16]

I don't think Raymond is any better all round than Byron. Byron has speed and hits/blocks, but isn't finishing. Raymond has speed and finish. If you like Raymond, then Sven was a similar player. Sven at least has ability to grow as a player.

Sven does not have Raymond's speed nor does he have his finishing ability at the NHL level. Sven is not an NHL player at this point in his career and has proven that on multiple occasions.

I don't like the 3rd year on his deal, wish it was a 2 year, but I disagree the need wasn't there. Who was going to bring his level of speed and scoring touch to the left side? I also think injuries derailed his season because when healthy he was a very useful player.

[robrob1974]

I don't know. I don't think Sven was given the same time that Raymond gets. I thought the need wasn't there. We already have a really small soft team. We needed guys to stand up to other teams. That was why we got Bollig. We could have used the Raymond money on someone else who could do that. 

 

Raymond's signing is the only one I really didn't like. Seto was a chance signing, show me contract. Engelland, well, I didn't like it that much, but we needed D. Bollig we needed size and grit who could play. Can he play? Sometimes. But I was sour on the Raymond signing from the get-go and was one who always talked against it when we were debating it on these forums. 

 

I almost wonder if Sven would do just as good as Raymond had he been given the chance to consistently play with a guy like Backlund or Colborne, instead of 4th line fodder like Bollig. 

4th liners are crash and bangers, energy guys. Baertschi is not that.

[cross16]

Raymond can be trusted with ice time and sven can't. Honestly outside of his emergency call up I saw nothing in sven that suggests to me you could count on him for solid top 9 play. The flames lost a lot of goals outside the left side when Canmy left and needed someone who could fit an up tempo game and Raymond fits that perfectly. I think he is a great system fit is what I'm saying, sven wasn't.

I think we are using hindsight too. Who say Gaudrea doing what he is doing this fast? It's easy to say now there is no need but going into the season Raymond was highest in the depth chart for LW. Gaudreau has made him less important for sure but that's not fair to put that on trevliving because no one counted in Gaudrea putting up 60 plus points.

[robrob1974]

For me, even without Gaudreau I didn't want Raymond. I cringed at the thought of him. To me, he always was exactly what he is today. He shows signs early in the season with a goal scoring touch and when things get tight and harder he can't play. 

[redfire11]

BT's first year was not really a test. I'm sure Burke made very clear on his hiring "we are on a 2/3 year rebuild and Hartley stays". So really BT has had a pretty easy job this year and has stayed out of the limelight with low key pickups and mandatory signings. His drafting Bennett was a no brainer but MacDonald and Hunter not sure but could have been suckup picks for Burke.

So in my thinking 28 other GM's could have pulled off the same showing as BT this year, (exclusion GM was MacT( Mact and KLowe would not get the easiest job right)).

 To get us in the playoffs again next year and 17/18 push for the cup will determine his worth. He is in better shape in debth and capspace than most of the other teams so next year the microscope will come out reguarding his GM ability.

  Still like him and feel he is the right man for the job (right now at least).

[MAC331]

Why is that ? I am not sure what you have against Raymond because the guy has all kinds of talent. he had a serious neck issue that derailed him for a while but when he was with VAN he was an obvious talent.

Before our success this year all the hockey authorities didn't give us any chance because of our lack of experienced skill and scoring ability. I think Raymond answered some of this doubt.

[travel_dude]

Why is that ? I am not sure what you have against Raymond because the guy has all kinds of talent. he had a serious neck issue that derailed him for a while but when he was with VAN he was an obvious talent.

Before our success this year all the hockey authorities didn't give us any chance because of our lack of experienced skill and scoring ability. I think Raymond answered some of this doubt.

Not sure who you were responding to, but I will give you some of my thoughts:

Raymond

57gp 12g 11a 23pts -8 1gwg

Jooris

60gp 12g 12a 24pts +1 4gwg

Backlund

52gp 10g 17a 27pts +4 2gwg

Backlund and Jooris played against top lines or in a shutdown role. Raymond was mostly given the high ground. Jooris and Raymond were similar in TOI per game. Jooris is a rookie. Jooris can play effectively on the PP and PK, while Raymond is mostly only PP. Jooris can play center or RW. Raymond can only play effectively on the LW. Jooris plays hard on the puck, while Raymond gives it up fairly easily.

Forgetting salary, this was an experiment that didn't work out. No hard feelings, but he takes up a roster spot that a rookie/sophomore could easily replace.

[robrob1974]

I agree with Travel_Dude, it's more the watching over the years, like I said earlier, when other teams check him, he has nothing to offer. He can skate circles in the offensive end, but then after how many laps he takes a weak shot from the perimeter and then the play is dead. Sometimes he gets the pass, skates up the ice and suddenly the puck just leaves his stick and is 5 strides ahead of him. It's all of those things on top of the not checking hard. 

 

Like on yesterday's goal, he weakly tried to push the Jets kid into the board and he just easily skated passed him. He has chances to finish checks and lay guys into the boards, but that's not in his DNA. He's just too easy to play against and too easy to stop.

When checking he just sort of does a drive by… 

[kehatch]

This was the same debate about Raymond that occurred in Vancouver. He is fast and he can score goals in streaks. So some like him. But of an 82 game season he is invisible for at least 50 games.

I don't have a huge issue with him filling a spot on the team because he isn't a liability. But I do have an issue with the term and cap hit. Overpaying for a player like Raymond isn't necessary. He was begging for a contract just to stay in the game a season ago and supposedly really wanted to play in Calgary. I don't get the contract.

[zima]

Bouma has done real well this yr but what happens when we sign him next yr to a 2-3 yr deal @ 3 something and he does a Jokinen plays great his contract yr gets his pound of flesh and goes back to sleep till his next contract yr. Not saying that will happen but all of a sudden BT is on the hook for a bad signing it is a touchy road to travel Richards did the same thing for LA and that hurts. 

[darth_henning]

I don't like Raymond after seeing his play this season. Especially when you realize that Jooris as a rookie and Bouma (younger with lower cap hit) have outplayed him.

 

The thing is, did any of us expect Jooris or Bouma to do that this season? Nope.

 

 

We did need Raymond or someone as a scoring threat this year. It was a good pickup. But the issue is that its a 3 year contract in a rebuild for relatively high dollar value (for what he brings). That's the questionable choice.

 

It was a good idea to bring him in this year, but being stuck with him at least through net season is going to be an issue when he's already being outplayed.

 

 

As to Bouma, I don't think he's the type of player who would do that with a contract year, with the culture around the team now, I don't think that would be anyone's intent. Still though, has he hit his career peak or is he going to keep improving? Not knowing the answer to that, my approach would be to offer him a 2 year "bridge" contract with the basic point of "prove it".

 

If he peaks here, he's got a good contract to follow that one. If he keeps getting better he gets an even better payday. Either way that's good for both the player and the team.

[travel_dude]

Bouma has done real well this yr but what happens when we sign him next yr to a 2-3 yr deal @ 3 something and he does a Jokinen plays great his contract yr gets his pound of flesh and goes back to sleep till his next contract yr. Not saying that will happen but all of a sudden BT is on the hook for a bad signing it is a touchy road to travel Richards did the same thing for LA and that hurts.

Bouma is not in the $3m tier of players. Lpve the player, but he is a 3-4th liner that can play up to the level of a 2nd line on our team. He is a heart and soul player, and deserves a raise. Not that much, though.

[kehatch]

The thing is, did any of us expect Jooris or Bouma to do that this season? Nope.

 

 

I was supportive of the idea of signing a veteran so we weren't pressured into playing a kid that wasn't ready.  So I agree with you that at the time it looked like we needed some depth at the position.  But we didn't need to sign someone to a three year deal IMO.  Even keeping Galiardi would have been preferable.