Goaltending

[robrob74]

38 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

did you watch the video?

 

I would if you haven't. Think you'd come to a different conclusion. 

 

It's really for conversation fodder, much like they were asking on the video. I don't know what to think. Saros is a good goalie though, so it could be easy enough to move that way if Calgary is being stubborn about Markstrom.

 

Time is starting to wind down and I wonder if it helps things for Conroy to wait, or if teams will just change directions away from Calgary. 

[sak22]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

 

It's really for conversation fodder, much like they were asking on the video. I don't know what to think. Saros is a good goalie though, so it could be easy enough to move that way if Calgary is being stubborn about Markstrom.

 

Time is starting to wind down and I wonder if it helps things for Conroy to wait, or if teams will just change directions away from Calgary. 

I do think if it goes past this season it gets harder and harder to move him.  I do think its good that Conroy has had a strong ask, but its a decision that he needs to make on whether to soften the ask and just move on or risk not being able to in the future as I don't think the offseason will present a favorable market for the Flames.

[travel_dude]

Just now, robrob74 said:

 

It's really for conversation fodder, much like they were asking on the video. I don't know what to think. Saros is a good goalie though, so it could be easy enough to move that way if Calgary is being stubborn about Markstrom.

 

Time is starting to wind down and I wonder if it helps things for Conroy to wait, or if teams will just change directions away from Calgary. 

 

I give you that Saros is overall the best goalie that might be available.

Youngest, down season, pretty consistent otherwise.

Hard to tell what Gibson even is anymore.

He wasn't mentioned there but I heard they might shop him.

 

But if your fall back play is Saros, he is only $1M less andone less year.

Advantage is they might consider retaining since it's a shorter time.

Downside is Saros is gonna cost a ton.

Where Marky is a top prospect or young NHL player + 1st, Saros is 2x1st plus a top prospect.

 

[robrob74]

6 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I do think if it goes past this season it gets harder and harder to move him.  I do think its good that Conroy has had a strong ask, but its a decision that he needs to make on whether to soften the ask and just move on or risk not being able to in the future as I don't think the offseason will present a favorable market for the Flames.

 

I kind of agree with you here. I get that many think with Cap going up it opens possibility, but teams will want to use it to give raises on players that will think they deserve certain percentages of the Cap... I don't know if the offseason will present as much opportunity as some think. I am probably wrong. 

[cross16]

Lots of time until the trade deadline so I don’t think there is a timing concern yet. I do think this deadline is the best time to move Markstrom. Can’t say it’s a mistake to not move him but I’d be wary of some of the risks in keeping him. 
 

I don’t think his value goes up from here. 

[phoenix66]

I think last night's game is a perfect example of why you don't trade Markstrom.. sure ok if a team blows you away with a haul nobody is untouchable.. but it highlighted what having a goalie that always gives you the chance to win any game gives you..

 

Players like kyllington have the ability to take off ..knowing the back end is covered.. players like Pospisil get involved and are motivated to hate to lose .. players like Zary lose their minutes because they are mailing it in.. message received it's not ok... 

Right now the chances of them actually Getting in the playoffs are slim and barely above none..but they believe they can and will..  they see him busting his butt back there and it gives them that little extra push to find the next gear.. 

Winning is a culture that you learn when you know you always have a chance 

 

A lesser goalie , that game is over after the second period .. maybe even before the puck is even dropped 

 

Look at new jersey right now .. they have a contending lineup aside from their goaltender.. and they're getting shelled lately because as soon as they allow that first bad goal you can almost see them give up.. when your star player trashes the goaltending in the press you have a culture problem.. 

 

I think it's pretty apparent at this point he's not being moved for the sake of moving him..

[cross16]

If people want to keep Markstrom fine but the question should be, what is this "culture" (I don't agree he is near as key to it but let's say so for the sake of discussion) worth to you?

 

It is worth a 1st round pick/good young roster player?

it is worth a 11-14 pick next year?

It is worth the difference between a top 5 pick this year versus the 10-12th pick?

 

If Markstrom was in his 20s I can see this being a real point of debate but Flames are moving into a non competitive playoff window for what I think is at least 2 more seasons. To keep a 34 year old goalie going into that cycle and accept the risks I listed above makes zero sense to me. 

 

Culture is important but so is talent and if you are going to be a winning team you need both but there has to be some give and take to that discussion. If Culture is your number 1 then fine but what's your plan to getting your talent level up to where it needs to be? 

 

I think keeping Markstrom past the summer is a mistake. Between this deadline and the summer he needs to be moved. 

[phoenix66]

7 minutes ago, cross16 said:

If people want to keep Markstrom fine but the question should be, what is this "culture" (I don't agree he is near as key to it but let's say so for the sake of discussion) worth to you?

 

It is worth a 1st round pick/good young roster player?

it is worth a top 10 pick next year?

It is worth the difference between a top 5 pick this year versus the 10-12th pick?

 

If Markstrom was in his 20s I can see this being a real point of debate but Flames are moving into a non competitive playoff window for what I think is at least 2 more seasons. To keep a 34 year old goalie going into that cycle and accept the risks I listed above makes zero sense to me. 

 

I think keeping Markstrom past the summer is a mistake. Between this deadline and the summer he needs to be moved. 

Like I said ..nobody is untouchable .. but I'd need to be blown away.. new jersey obviously made Craig listen but in the end wasn't enough.. 

Picks are lottery tickets ..ask Edmonton how 5 first overall picks has worked out ..Toronto has a stud core and still hasnt won anything .. Buffalo still can't win for losing 

Go look at Matthews draft year and see how many of the top 10 picks at either busts or have been traded (some multiple times ) 

The problem with contenders needing a goalie , is they have nothing to give .. late firsts... Mid grade prospects ... What he does for this team is way more valuable .. 

 

And to add . Even without him.. well likely still be too good to be that bad.. as long as you have a kadri that won't quit.. people want wolf so bad ..what if hes as good as  they say ? 

 

 

If I go way back in this thread.. to when kipper and Iggy left us ..when we really kinda were rebuilding to a degree... Will I find you raving about Ramo and Hiller and how great it is they suck and the better picks were going to get ? ..and how great Gibson and Ortio are gonna be when they're ready ?  Or will we find page after page about how we need to improve from the net out ?

 

Like I say.. I'm open to being blown away.. Jerry wants to pony up a first , Mercer and Holtz. I'm listening  

[cross16]

14 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Like I said ..nobody is untouchable .. but I'd need to be blown away.. new jersey obviously made Craig listen but in the end wasn't enough.. 

Picks are lottery tickets ..ask Edmonton how 5 first overall picks has worked out ..Toronto has a stud core and still hasnt won anything .. Buffalo still can't win for losing 

Go look at Matthews draft year and see how many of the top 10 picks at either busts or have been traded (some multiple times ) 

The problem with contenders needing a goalie , is they have nothing to give .. late firsts... Mid grade prospects ... What he does for this team is way more valuable .. 

 

And to add . Even without him.. well likely still be too good to be that bad.. as long as you have a kadri that won't quit.. people want wolf so bad ..what if hes as good as  they say ? 

 

 

If I go way back in this thread.. to when kipper and Iggy left us ..when we really kinda were rebuilding to a degree... Will I find you raving about Ramo and Hiller and how great it is they suck and the better picks were going to get ? ..and how great Gibson and Ortio are gonna be when they're ready ?  Or will we find page after page about how we need to improve from the net out ?

 

Like I say.. I'm open to being blown away.. Jerry wants to pony up a first , Mercer and Holtz. I'm listening  

 

 

The thing that you still haven't addressed though is Markstrom is 34. So great he's awesome now, but what's he going to be next year or the year after and then he is UFA. Again if we were talking about a goalie in his prime I would get behind what you are saying here but that isn't the case here. 

 

So what i'm saying is in 2 year from now, and as possibly as early as next year you might not have that goalie so let's cash in now. It appears you are willing to bet against that age curve and that's fine but IMO that is a mistake that Conroy should not make and it's a mistake this franchise has made far, far too often. 

 

If Wolf is as good as we think then all the more reason to cash in now. If he isn't well then yes your looking for a goalie in a year or 2 from now which is the same spot you'll be in if you keep Markstrom. 

 

 

[phoenix66]

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

 

The thing that you still haven't addressed though is Markstrom is 34. So great he's awesome now, but what's he going to be next year or the year after and then he is UFA. Again if we were talking about a goalie in his prime I would get behind what you are saying here but that isn't the case here. 

 

So what i'm saying is in 2 year from now, and as possibly as early as next year you might not have that goalie so let's cash in now. It appears you ar willing to bet against that age curve and that's fine but IMO that is a mistake that Conroy should not make and it's a mistake this franchise has made far, far too often. 

The age doesnt concern me at all..hes really only had one bad season out of 4 .. many goalies play great into their late 30's. Love him or hate him but when he was healthy Smith was literally the only reason Edmonton won playoff games .. And at the same time Wolf will be backup next year (he better be ) .. perfect stage to battle for the job .. if he declines as you say then everybody still wins ..  if Wolf takes his job , we win .. if it takes to the end of his contract to happen , we win .. and if Wolf doesn't pan out you got 2 years to plan the next step.. In the meantime, the Pelletiers, Zarys, Coronatos etc.. play in a competitive atmosphere and it only makes them better ..maybe by then we wont need a stud goalie.. there is literally no downside to keeping him .  moving him for the sake of moving him tells your team its ok to lose ...  and the teams who can give us what we really need , high picks , high prospects ..are the teams he likely would not waive for .. he likes Calgary , he doesnt want to leave for another dumpster fire 

[cross16]

6 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

The age doesnt concern me at all..hes really only had one bad season out of 4 .. many goalies play great into their late 30's. Love him or hate him but when he was healthy Smith was literally the only reason Edmonton won playoff games .. And at the same time Wolf will be backup next year (he better be ) .. perfect stage to battle for the job .. if he declines as you say then everybody still wins ..  if Wolf takes his job , we win .. if it takes to the end of his contract to happen , we win .. and if Wolf doesn't pan out you got 2 years to plan the next step.. In the meantime, the Pelletiers, Zarys, Coronatos etc.. play in a competitive atmosphere and it only makes them better ..maybe by then we wont need a stud goalie.. there is literally no downside to keeping him .  moving him for the sake of moving him tells your team its ok to lose ...  and the teams who can give us what we really need , high picks , high prospects ..are the teams he likely would not waive for .. he likes Calgary , he doesnt want to leave for another dumpster fire 

 

Other than you've cost yourself a good young player and a pick (maybe more). And if he plays well and the Flames finish 11-14th next year you'll lose that pick to Montreal. 

 

Clearly we won't agree but IMO this is short term thinking for a team that should be thinking long term. Your plan has this franchise repeating the same mistakes they've made in the past. Let's accept what we know now so we can avoid the fear of the unknown. 

 

I don't want to sign up for that personally. 

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

I think last night's game is a perfect example of why you don't trade Markstrom.. sure ok if a team blows you away with a haul nobody is untouchable.. but it highlighted what having a goalie that always gives you the chance to win any game gives you..

 

Players like kyllington have the ability to take off ..knowing the back end is covered.. players like Pospisil get involved and are motivated to hate to lose .. players like Zary lose their minutes because they are mailing it in.. message received it's not ok... 

Right now the chances of them actually Getting in the playoffs are slim and barely above none..but they believe they can and will..  they see him busting his butt back there and it gives them that little extra push to find the next gear.. 

Winning is a culture that you learn when you know you always have a chance 

 

A lesser goalie , that game is over after the second period .. maybe even before the puck is even dropped 

 

Look at new jersey right now .. they have a contending lineup aside from their goaltender.. and they're getting shelled lately because as soon as they allow that first bad goal you can almost see them give up.. when your star player trashes the goaltending in the press you have a culture problem.. 

 

I think it's pretty apparent at this point he's not being moved for the sake of moving him..

 

I see this as a perfect example of why you do trade Markstrom.

 

We only ever want to trade players that have no value.  Just human nature.

 

The harder you try and explain how important it is to keep him, the more you inevitably highlight his very high short term value right now.    You know the value won't last.

 

So it comes down to that push for the playoffs.

 

On that note, I will follow suit with others and ping @Heartbreaker

[travel_dude]

56 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

 

The thing that you still haven't addressed though is Markstrom is 34. So great he's awesome now, but what's he going to be next year or the year after and then he is UFA. Again if we were talking about a goalie in his prime I would get behind what you are saying here but that isn't the case here. 

 

So what i'm saying is in 2 year from now, and as possibly as early as next year you might not have that goalie so let's cash in now. It appears you are willing to bet against that age curve and that's fine but IMO that is a mistake that Conroy should not make and it's a mistake this franchise has made far, far too often. 

 

If Wolf is as good as we think then all the more reason to cash in now. If he isn't well then yes your looking for a goalie in a year or 2 from now which is the same spot you'll be in if you keep Markstrom. 

 

 

 

I'm not really getting the reasons to have half a NHL performing team and what some say is a star goalie.  The two ideas don't mix.  We have to fix the future goalie situation in 3 years or less.  We don't have a playoff team constructed for this year, and really no plan to be one next year.  What is the value in keeping a goalie that gets you close but the team overall isn't good enough?

 

Times have changed.  The idea that a 36 year old Miller or a 39 year old MAF is getting you a cup is pretty much flawed.  They are supposed to be stopgaps to allow a good team to develop their new starter.  We haven't used this year to even evaluate Wolf or Vladar.  I don't think Vladar is the answer based on his uneven play.  In the same game he can be a star and look like an AHL goalie.  Plays one game well then the next looks like crap.  He doesn't look even as ready as Rittich did as a 1b here.

 

So the argument is really what are we trying to achieve and when does it make sense to trade him.  The summer brings in more teams that might make a trade, but also has goalies as UFA's available to teams that don't want to make trades.  The alternate reality is that only some teams will make offers now.  But those teams are in a bind.  Lacking a #1 and have seen their season teeter towards missing the playoffs.  Or their depth consists of a rookie or meh goalie.

 

What are we trying to achieve?  A worse rank in the draft with no hope of a cup?  Playing for pride?  Depend on a goalie to fix mistakes by the other players?  Short term wins? 

 

I would be happy that we make a move now.  We get to figure out what our glaring needs are, whether that is on defense, lacking a #1C that plays both ends, not having goalie depth?  We can pick up a goalie in the summer that would last as long as Markstrom's contract.  Might provide us with a bit more time to find the next one.  Allow us some time to build the prospect pool that was ravaged.    

 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

2 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

I think last night's game is a perfect example of why you don't trade Markstrom.. sure ok if a team blows you away with a haul nobody is untouchable.. but it highlighted what having a goalie that always gives you the chance to win any game gives you..

 

Players like kyllington have the ability to take off ..knowing the back end is covered.. players like Pospisil get involved and are motivated to hate to lose .. players like Zary lose their minutes because they are mailing it in.. message received it's not ok... 

Right now the chances of them actually Getting in the playoffs are slim and barely above none..but they believe they can and will..  they see him busting his butt back there and it gives them that little extra push to find the next gear.. 

Winning is a culture that you learn when you know you always have a chance 

 

A lesser goalie , that game is over after the second period .. maybe even before the puck is even dropped 

 

Look at new jersey right now .. they have a contending lineup aside from their goaltender.. and they're getting shelled lately because as soon as they allow that first bad goal you can almost see them give up.. when your star player trashes the goaltending in the press you have a culture problem.. 

 

I think it's pretty apparent at this point he's not being moved for the sake of moving him..

This season and two years ago yes, last season and his first with the team, not so much. It seems either feast or famine with him and his history shows next year could very well be another down year. I'm not advocating to move him just because but I dont think moving him would negatively affect the "culture" too much. They're all professionals and as long as they trust the system and the timeline they'll be fine.

[Heartbreaker]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

...

On that note, I will follow suit with others and ping @Heartbreaker

 

I appreciate that, Buddy. It's been a couple of days, and I've been starved for attention!

 

I'll make it worth your while...

 

Hey JJ, when is a door no longer a door?

 

...

 

...

 

...

 

When it's ajar.

 

Love.

[phoenix66]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Other than you've cost yourself a good young player and a pick (maybe more). And if he plays well and the Flames finish 11-14th next year you'll lose that pick to Montreal. 

 

Clearly we won't agree but IMO this is short term thinking for a team that should be thinking long term. Your plan has this franchise repeating the same mistakes they've made in the past. Let's accept what we know now so we can avoid the fear of the unknown. 

 

I don't want to sign up for that personally. 

3 years is short term.. thats the stated deadline for this team to be a contender .. and again Im not saying Dont trade him no matter what , just the offer needs to be a home run .. don't trade him for the sake of doing it .

Conroy seems to be of the same mindset, or he'd be a Devil already 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

If people want to keep Markstrom fine but the question should be, what is this "culture" (I don't agree he is near as key to it but let's say so for the sake of discussion) worth to you?

 

It is worth a 1st round pick/good young roster player?

it is worth a 11-14 pick next year?

It is worth the difference between a top 5 pick this year versus the 10-12th pick?

 

If Markstrom was in his 20s I can see this being a real point of debate but Flames are moving into a non competitive playoff window for what I think is at least 2 more seasons. To keep a 34 year old goalie going into that cycle and accept the risks I listed above makes zero sense to me. 

 

Culture is important but so is talent and if you are going to be a winning team you need both but there has to be some give and take to that discussion. If Culture is your number 1 then fine but what's your plan to getting your talent level up to where it needs to be? 

 

I think keeping Markstrom past the summer is a mistake. Between this deadline and the summer he needs to be moved. 

I get that they wouldn't say, and didn't say, and that no would ever say it, but Markstrom willing to be traded shows he'd like to compete. This isn't a Flames don't want him scenario, and could be that he actually wants to go and try win a cup. 
 

this contract he's on may be his last chance at it. Sure he can play longer but will he be a starter then? He could just as well said he'd go try win one. 
 

its like someone breaking up with a spouse, they don't want to, but it's not really working, but if the other one wants to stay, I can go with it. But I'm ok with them to break it off. Not many end that way, but sometimes. 
 

this one with the Flames seems amicable .

[robrob74]

26 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

3 years is short term.. thats the stated deadline for this team to be a contender .. and again Im not saying Dont trade him no matter what , just the offer needs to be a home run .. don't trade him for the sake of doing it .

Conroy seems to be of the same mindset, or he'd be a Devil already 

it isn't a fail-safe, but this team needs at least 1 top five draft in that time period. Two top 5 picks is preferable. The scouts have their work cut out for them.

 

 

[bosn111]

The question really around Markstrom remains the return that would be worth it, and which teams would be willing / able to make the move?

 

It is clear that Markstrom will only waive his clause to go to a competitive team. This means a team that is likely making the playoffs. Those teams start at pick 16 in the draft. So even a 1st round pick from them doesn’t get you into the top 15, let alone top 10 picks. Markstrom won’t waive to go to a team where it would be a top 5 pick, let alone top 10.

 

So if you aren’t getting a high first, then you need a very good young player / prospect. Contenders aren’t likely to give up solid young roster players as they are part of what got them to be contenders, so you are taking a shot at unproven prospects who weren’t good enough yet, or too young, to make the big club.

 

According to “the fourth period”, Markstrom with 2 - 3 million retained for Holtz was the offer. No mention of draft picks and there was no inclusion of Vanacek. Sticking point was making salaries work, I don’t feel Holtz alone is enough if the Flames are retaining salary.

[cross16]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

3 years is short term.. thats the stated deadline for this team to be a contender .. and again Im not saying Dont trade him no matter what , just the offer needs to be a home run .. don't trade him for the sake of doing it .

Conroy seems to be of the same mindset, or he'd be a Devil already 

 

And no one is saying do it for the sake of doing it but I think there a middle ground between give away and being unrealistic. Your not getting Mercer, Holtz and a 1st that's crazy so your basically saying let's keep Markstrom. 

 

I'm saying find middle ground especially because I don't think his value is going to go up. 

 

From what I believe, the hold up is retention not the value of Markstrom. Hoping they find something workable in the next week or at the latest this summer. 

 

All i'm saying is past this summer I think you bring risk in that are going to weaken your negotiating position. Again, doesn't move them to "trade them just for the sake of it" but the longer you wait the less the ability to do well in trade. 

[phoenix66]

11 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

And no one is saying do it for the sake of doing it but I think there a middle ground between do nothing and be unrealistic. Your not getting Mercer, Holtz and a 1st that's crazy so your basically saying let's keep Markstrom. 

 

I'm saying find middle ground especially because I don't think his value is going to go up. 

 

From what I believe, the hold up is retention not the value of Markstrom. Hoping they find something workable in the next week. 

possibly .. latest word is they haven't had conversations in over 10 days now .. or they somehow found a way to keep it super quiet ..  which is possible too .. but retention has its price .. word was the last offer was holtz , a first and another prospect ...  but they weren't retaining for that .. needs more ...  his cap hit may be 3 but his actual salary is 8 so thats about 8+ mill over 2 years +.. that has a definite price 

[cross16]

And to be clear I have no problem with Conroy holding his ground, be it retention, money, whatver. He's got almost 2 weeks here so there is no "just get a deal done" from me.  Doesn't even have to be this TDL but if it's not it should be by summer. 

 

End of the day my point is that it makes no sense to me to have Markstrom be a Flame come next season. 

 

This franchise has to start doing things differently and IMO this is a great place to start. 

[The_People1]

I agree we should sell high on Markstrom.  Without Hanifin and Tanev, and possibly Andersson (hopefully someone blows us out of the water), how good can a goalie be?  He's going to be horrible in the next 2 years and there's nothing he can do to change that.  Sell high.  Get something back.

 

1st + Holtz + prospect???... But Flames need to retain.  Just turn the 1st to a 2nd and don't retain.  Or just let NJD keep the prospect.  Bring down the price and move Markstrom to the highest bidder.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

I agree we should sell high on Markstrom.  Without Hanifin and Tanev, and possibly Andersson (hopefully someone blows us out of the water), how good can a goalie be?  He's going to be horrible in the next 2 years and there's nothing he can do to change that.  Sell high.  Get something back.

 

1st + Holtz + prospect???... But Flames need to retain.  Just turn the 1st to a 2nd and don't retain.  Or just let NJD keep the prospect.  Bring down the price and move Markstrom to the highest bidder.

 

I don't even think it matters that we trade Hanifin and Tanev.  Marky leads the NHL in high danger chances.  We will see a lot of goals against without him.  With him, we lose scoring from Hanifin and PK from Tanev.  That means less wins.  No point in keeping Markstrom just for sake of a 12 pick vs a 5 pick.

[redfire11]

Vladar out for season with hip surgery.