Flames 22/23 Lineup

[sak22]

5 hours ago, robrob74 said:

maybe not Pelts, maybe not Phillips, but what the fans see is a team that lacks consistency and that seems to be due to accountability. The fact no one really has a consequence due to poor effort is really what they mean. It isn't about who, it's about infusing youthful energy. It's about Sutter being hypocritical in the way he is coaching. 
 

we are playing teams with 8 guys out, 6 guys out and getting outplayed by AHLers 

Name 1 team outside of St. Louis with 6-8 guys out that we played recently.  3/4 points in those 2 games I wouldn't say they were badly outplayed, and I also wouldn't consider Bortuzzo, Logan Brown, Alexandrov as significant of losses, its essentially like us missing Trevor Lewis and Stone.  St. Louis still had their big guys Thomas, Kyrou and Buchnevich and those guys pretty much single handedly won that first game for them.   

[travel_dude]

59 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Name 1 team outside of St. Louis with 6-8 guys out that we played recently.  3/4 points in those 2 games I wouldn't say they were badly outplayed, and I also wouldn't consider Bortuzzo, Logan Brown, Alexandrov as significant of losses, its essentially like us missing Trevor Lewis and Stone.  St. Louis still had their big guys Thomas, Kyrou and Buchnevich and those guys pretty much single handedly won that first game for them.   

 

I think maybe Rob is generalizing a bit, but his point is valid.  CHI is in tank mode.  There is no way we should have been losing to them or lost in OT.  The OTL was probably a given, since we couldn't get that go-ahead goal.  40 minutes by your backup to try to stop any more goals.  1 was enough for the OTL.

 

Anyway, what Rob is saying is that the team isn't exactly a world beater and we are not making any roster decisions regardless of play.  There is quite simply more than a couple of players that deserve to sit after a game.  Or get demoted off their line.  The alternative may not be any better, but we are simply not even looking at that.  We may not have the solution in the roster or in the AHL, but doing nothing different suggests that yelling is the only option.  

 

Sutter says some things that make you wonder if he even knows how to solve the problem.

- tired after a road trip

- personally, I felt that once he shifted the lines in the 3rd, we looked 10x better, but he said team was not really any better in the 2nd and 3rd

- we aren't anywhere near the AVS in terms of skill and experience

- can't spot a team like that 2 goals

- chemistry isn't a thing, the players decide with performance where they play

 

My question is if the lines aren't getting better and players performance determines where they play, why have we see zero changes since Duehr first played in CHI?  Early collapse in CHI, late collapse in STL and Dallas.  Early collapse against COL.  Nothing burger in NAS.  First game back after a roadie is tough.  But we have ample practice time now and after CBJ.  If nothing at all changes, then I really wonder.

[sak22]

38 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think maybe Rob is generalizing a bit, but his point is valid.  CHI is in tank mode.  There is no way we should have been losing to them or lost in OT.  The OTL was probably a given, since we couldn't get that go-ahead goal.  40 minutes by your backup to try to stop any more goals.  1 was enough for the OTL.

 

Anyway, what Rob is saying is that the team isn't exactly a world beater and we are not making any roster decisions regardless of play.  There is quite simply more than a couple of players that deserve to sit after a game.  Or get demoted off their line.  The alternative may not be any better, but we are simply not even looking at that.  We may not have the solution in the roster or in the AHL, but doing nothing different suggests that yelling is the only option.  

 

Sutter says some things that make you wonder if he even knows how to solve the problem.

- tired after a road trip

- personally, I felt that once he shifted the lines in the 3rd, we looked 10x better, but he said team was not really any better in the 2nd and 3rd

- we aren't anywhere near the AVS in terms of skill and experience

- can't spot a team like that 2 goals

- chemistry isn't a thing, the players decide with performance where they play

 

My question is if the lines aren't getting better and players performance determines where they play, why have we see zero changes since Duehr first played in CHI?  Early collapse in CHI, late collapse in STL and Dallas.  Early collapse against COL.  Nothing burger in NAS.  First game back after a roadie is tough.  But we have ample practice time now and after CBJ.  If nothing at all changes, then I really wonder.

Well the team we just lost to also lost to Chicago in regulation shortly after with Chicago's worse goalie.  Last I checked the worst teams generally win 20 games and the best generally lose 20, anybody can beat anybody.

[travel_dude]

58 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Well the team we just lost to also lost to Chicago in regulation shortly after with Chicago's worse goalie.  Last I checked the worst teams generally win 20 games and the best generally lose 20, anybody can beat anybody.

 

The same lineup played for 6 games.  Only the goalie changed.  Do you think that every player in those games deserved to keep the same line they played on or the same number of minutes?  COL has off games and would be justified in losing any game they play due to those missing players.  Same with STL.

[sak22]

16 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The same lineup played for 6 games.  Only the goalie changed.  Do you think that every player in those games deserved to keep the same line they played on or the same number of minutes?  COL has off games and would be justified in losing any game they play due to those missing players.  Same with STL.

I think its pretty par for the course around the league, I don't follow every team closely but looking at numbers I'd say it's pretty common that teams stick with the same lineup for extended periods.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

I think its pretty par for the course around the league, I don't follow every team closely but looking at numbers I'd say it's pretty common that teams stick with the same lineup for extended periods.

 

The upper level teams don't really need to make changes.

It's working and mostly they flush a loss.

Low level teams do a lot of moving players around to see what they have and get players in and out.

 

Middle of the road teams like EDM make changes constantly.

Some are typical in games to re-unite the McD-Drai pair.

And they bring in players for cups of coffee to see what they are and where they need dev.

 

But really, I am talking about changes when we see the exact same issues cropping up.

A line plays cringe-worthy most of the night.

A pairing is getting caved in.

 

I'm all for building consistency, and I don't expect a team to play flawless, but I do expect change when it's not working.  We had a 6-1 record and Sutter didn't like the wins.  Made a change and we saw a long losing streak along with Hubey gettting hurt.  Ruzie provided a spark.  The he got bumped down.  And we were back top winning and losing.  Then Lucic is sat.  Then Lucic gets on a line with 2nd best ice times.  And here we are.  It made sense that after the CHI/STL losses or the Dallas collapse that we may see some change.  After 2 periods against the AVS, it seemed to sink in.  But that was more of looking for anything than a plan. 

 

I think I will just go back to commenting on lines suggested or results of what we play with.  

[travel_dude]

Today's practice featured Pelletier skating on the 4th line with Lewis and Duehr.

Ruzicka odd man out.

Rest of lineup exactly the same as the start against the AVS.

 

I don't know that this is any more than Sutter using him there to silence the media.

Sutter's word were you don't take a top line AHL player and play him on ehte 4th line.

His words not mine.

[rocketdoctor]

Makes zero sense playing Pelts on the 4th line.

 

ffs bench Looch now or put him to the 4th.

 

Getting really tired of him on the 2nd line.

[robrob74]

19 minutes ago, rocketdoctor said:

Makes zero sense playing Pelts on the 4th line.

 

ffs bench Looch now or put him to the 4th.

 

Getting really tired of him on the 2nd line.

Ya i agree

 

i totally get the ideas around, how can you bench so and so and can't bench them all for their efforts. It's just when there are poor efforts all over the place it's really hard to take as a fan, and that none of them really get flack for it, other than, probably seemingly, only Ruzicka. I get Lucic was benched, but I guess you can't sit a whole team in game when it is collective. 
 

but this is where a lot of us fans think that infusion of youthful energy might give some of the vets jump. 

[travel_dude]

9 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

Ya i agree

 

i totally get the ideas around, how can you bench so and so and can't bench them all for their efforts. It's just when there are poor efforts all over the place it's really hard to take as a fan, and that none of them really get flack for it, other than, probably seemingly, only Ruzicka. I get Lucic was benched, but I guess you can't sit a whole team in game when it is collective. 
 

but this is where a lot of us fans think that infusion of youthful energy might give some of the vets jump. 

 

Ruzie has not been the worst player on the ice in any game I saw recently.

He make some plays I question, but none are what I would say are dangerous.

He doesn't hurt you out there.

Sutter blamed a goal on him because he was slow in getting off the ice.

This was after he got crunched.  That was a week ago or so.

I don't know that he is the guy to take out, but Sutter will first go to the rookies.

 

I don't mind Ruzie coming out, but the reasons are stupid.

Sutter seems to think the 2nd line is working, even with the losses and poor play some nights.

We won a bunch of points, so why change the top 9.

Sutter logic.

[Thebrewcrew]

 

[pikey7883]

43 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

 

I would’ve been shocked if he said something different. Was it last year when he was really really hard on Dube (or the year before)? He is a donkey some times, but he knows how to turn people into true NHLers. And I want Pelletier in the lineup

[conundrumed]

2 hours ago, pikey7883 said:

I would’ve been shocked if he said something different. Was it last year when he was really really hard on Dube (or the year before)? He is a donkey some times, but he knows how to turn people into true NHLers. And I want Pelletier in the lineup

He can talk directly to Pelletier about it. He doesn't need to feed idiots like !Blockchain Eric Francis.

[MP5029]

I still think Kadri moved to the RW is something they need to try…however, the only way that makes sense Is IF they can land a decent sized Ctr who can win FO’s

 

If Dunclair was able to be had for a reasonable $ or Reinhart those would a great add on the RW which could spark Huby… personally we have done this for many years with Iggy and that had limited success, so building a line around 1 guy is super risky, but when you have committed 10 x8 years to that guy it makes sense…and yes a move like this would definitely involve moving Toffoil who has been pretty reliable this year but…the top 6 is just not quite right so some things need to be addressed…best thing is to buy into those large commitments of Huby, Weegar and Kadri…or maybe Meire (sp) in SJ 

 

Huby/Lindholm/Dunclair

Manji/ Kadri/Miere (sp?) 

Dube/Backlund/Coleman 

 

a few moves but those could really change the chemistry in a good way 

[travel_dude]

35 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

I still think Kadri moved to the RW is something they need to try…however, the only way that makes sense Is IF they can land a decent sized Ctr who can win FO’s

 

If Dunclair was able to be had for a reasonable $ or Reinhart those would a great add on the RW which could spark Huby… personally we have done this for many years with Iggy and that had limited success, so building a line around 1 guy is super risky, but when you have committed 10 x8 years to that guy it makes sense…and yes a move like this would definitely involve moving Toffoil who has been pretty reliable this year but…the top 6 is just not quite right so some things need to be addressed…best thing is to buy into those large commitments of Huby, Weegar and Kadri…or maybe Meire (sp) in SJ 

 

Huby/Lindholm/Dunclair

Manji/ Kadri/Miere (sp?) 

Dube/Backlund/Coleman 

 

a few moves but those could really change the chemistry in a good way 

 

Before we go out and look for another C or high end winger....

Are we in fact using the best players we have available and in the right situation?

Kadri is a shooter, but is only ever getting the pass from Hubey.

He has shown chemistry when he plays in other situations (Mange).

But, I'm also not breaking up the Bread line.

 

The players that seem to be either used in the wrong line or capable of playing with others:

Dube - guy just knows when to turn on the jets

Huberdeau - line doesn't suit his skills

Ruzicka - doesn't really belong eating popcorn, one of the improved faceoff guys

 

Maybe a bit early to try this, but I see it as use of players that can raise their games.

Dube-Lindholm-Huberdeau

Pelletier-Kadri-Toffoli

Mange-Backlund-Coleman

Lucic-Ruzicka-Duehr

 

I don't think it would be right to sit Lucic, after he has stepped up to play after eating popcorn.

Lewis isn't playing bad, but you need to inject youth to expect more than just a good showing.

Ruzicka and Duehr gives you speed on that 4th line and Ruzie can win draws.

Pelletier should be tried in a top 6 role, as his passes seem better than the guys he plays with.

We don't need to use Hiberdeau on RW, so either Dube or him could do it.  

[MP5029]

39 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Before we go out and look for another C or high end winger....

Are we in fact using the best players we have available and in the right situation?

Kadri is a shooter, but is only ever getting the pass from Hubey.

He has shown chemistry when he plays in other situations (Mange).

But, I'm also not breaking up the Bread line.

 

The players that seem to be either used in the wrong line or capable of playing with others:

Dube - guy just knows when to turn on the jets

Huberdeau - line doesn't suit his skills

Ruzicka - doesn't really belong eating popcorn, one of the improved faceoff guys

 

Maybe a bit early to try this, but I see it as use of players that can raise their games.

Dube-Lindholm-Huberdeau

Pelletier-Kadri-Toffoli

Mange-Backlund-Coleman

Lucic-Ruzicka-Duehr

 

I don't think it would be right to sit Lucic, after he has stepped up to play after eating popcorn.

Lewis isn't playing bad, but you need to inject youth to expect more than just a good showing.

Ruzicka and Duehr gives you speed on that 4th line and Ruzie can win draws.

Pelletier should be tried in a top 6 role, as his passes seem better than the guys he plays with.

We don't need to use Hiberdeau on RW, so either Dube or him could do it.  

 This would good too…but Kadri is just a so/so FO guy, 3rd line FO guy at best…but definitely a 2nd offensive guy….Backlund is definitely a 2nd Line FO hi but only So/So on the offensive end.

 

as for the bread line I get it, but can’t help but feel Manji can do much better with better offensive line mates.

 

maybe we can tweak your points a tad…

 

Dube/Lindholm/Hubby 

manji/Ruzi/Kadri 

Pelletier/Backlund/Coleman

Lucic/????/Dhur  

 

see that Ctr position is just not quite right…and TBH Toffoil has no clauses for movement or trades, reasonable salary and cap hit and he’s pretty good, better than when we traded for him so could max return…only need a bottom 6 Ctr this way

 

still the mix is not quite right, maybe…

 

huby/Lindholm/???
manji/Ruzi/Dube

Peltier/Backlund/Kadri

Lucic/??/Dhur 

 

prob a better way to go, but this would need a RW and bottom 6 Ctr 

 

then on top of all this the Kylington a sense and Tanev injury issues are also an area needing to be addressed 

 

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, MP5029 said:

I still think Kadri moved to the RW is something they need to try…however, the only way that makes sense Is IF they can land a decent sized Ctr who can win FO’s

 

If Dunclair was able to be had for a reasonable $ or Reinhart those would a great add on the RW which could spark Huby… personally we have done this for many years with Iggy and that had limited success, so building a line around 1 guy is super risky, but when you have committed 10 x8 years to that guy it makes sense…and yes a move like this would definitely involve moving Toffoil who has been pretty reliable this year but…the top 6 is just not quite right so some things need to be addressed…best thing is to buy into those large commitments of Huby, Weegar and Kadri…or maybe Meire (sp) in SJ 

 

Huby/Lindholm/Dunclair

Manji/ Kadri/Miere (sp?) 

Dube/Backlund/Coleman 

 

a few moves but those could really change the chemistry in a good way 

Duclair had surgery to repair his achilles tendon in July. Hasn't played, return to play unknown. Meier's QO for next season is $10mil and we don't have the assets to acquire him regardless.

[MP5029]

Just now, conundrumed said:

Duclair had surgery to repair his achilles tendon in July. Hasn't played, return to play unknown. Meier's QO for next season is $10mil and we don't have the assets to acquire him regardless.

Meier could be a sign and trade deal much like we did with Tachuck…as far as assets there are 2023 1st pick…also Coronato or Pellets or Zary…totally doable but it’s a costly risk move

 

Dunclair would be great but injury is the issue and would be mor of a plan for next year.

 

reinhart has been lined and rumoured as an option but I just don’t see Fla moving him and the cost would probably be pretty high but not as high as meire 

 

having said this, Cgy went all in with Huby, Kadri and Weegar this year so they kinda need to make a few more moves now and go all in for the next 2 years and this year too…after that I think age could be an issue 

[conundrumed]

1 minute ago, MP5029 said:

Meier could be a sign and trade deal much like we did with Tachuck…as far as assets there are 2023 1st pick…also Coronato or Pellets or Zary…totally doable but it’s a costly risk move

 

Dunclair would be great but injury is the issue and would be mor of a plan for next year.

 

reinhart has been lined and rumoured as an option but I just don’t see Fla moving him and the cost would probably be pretty high but not as high as meire 

 

having said this, Cgy went all in with Huby, Kadri and Weegar this year so they kinda need to make a few more moves now and go all in for the next 2 years and this year too…after that I think age could be an issue 

We don't have the cap space for Reinhart or Meier. We can't sell the farm unless you'd like a decade down a very dark hole. Other teams can afford to offer more for Meier than we can, and we can't even afford to offer what we can as it is.

Check our cap for next year.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

We don't have the cap space for Reinhart or Meier. We can't sell the farm unless you'd like a decade down a very dark hole. Other teams can afford to offer more for Meier than we can, and we can't even afford to offer what we can as it is.

Check our cap for next year.

 

The only way it makes sense to trade for Meier is if we use it as a TDL deal, then turn him into assets after the playoffs.  Sell the farm to get him, then get the farm back after.  LOL.

 

We can't trade for a $6M guy in February unless we are sending out $6M.

And that guy needs to be more than just a good player.

 

I would prefer we look at pieces that can help the PP or that have untapped potential.

Kuzmenko would look good on the PP here, but I get the sense that VAN thinks they can get a 1st for him.

Or they just want to re-sign him.

No idea with VAN.

Horvat would be a good piece, but he's going to get rich.

Not here, unless we are trading about $7M in salary to them.

Even then that would be a hard re-signing.

Would need to trade off Backlund to allow it. 

[MP5029]

19 hours ago, conundrumed said:

We don't have the cap space for Reinhart or Meier. We can't sell the farm unless you'd like a decade down a very dark hole. Other teams can afford to offer more for Meier than we can, and we can't even afford to offer what we can as it is.

Check our cap for next year.

That dark hole started with the 10.5 mil to Hubby and 7+ to Kadri…

 

so like it or not we are all in for a 1-3 year window where we have a chance…After that we are in for another 6 years of that dark hole so, might as well go all in and try for a cup…

 

in about 3 years we are gonna have a ton for cap space tied up into players well over 30 with NTC/NMC’s so what’s the farm

gonna do to help that?
 

Noting!

 

If You don’t go all in, well then you get no cup chance for 6 years of maybe making a few playoff 1st round exits…

 

therefor go all in for 3 years, after that, if no cup start doing a full scale tear down hopefully some

NTCand NMC guys will wave and accept a trade 

 

[conundrumed]

2 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

That dark hole started with the 10.5 mil to Hubby and 7+ to Kadri…

 

so like it or not we are all in for a 1-3 year window where we have a chance…After that we are in for another 6 years of that dark hole so, might as well go all in and try for a cup…

 

in about 3 years we are gonna have a ton for cap space tied up into players well over 30 with NTC/NMC’s so what’s the farm

gonna do to help that?
 

Noting!

 

If You don’t go all in, well then you get no cup chance for 6 years of maybe making a few playoff 1st round exits…

 

therefor go all in for 3 years, after that, if no cup start doing a full scale tear down hopefully some

NTCand NMC guys will wave and accept a trade 

 

That's great, but all I'm pointing out is the salary cap restrictions. We're going to need good players on ELCs. We can't add a Meier due to cap AND lose players we hope can make it in their ELC window, like Pelts, Zary and hopefully Coronato.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

Am I the only one who isnt getting the fascination of acquiring Meier? He's not even a PPG player but some want to sell the future for him.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

That's great, but all I'm pointing out is the salary cap restrictions. We're going to need good players on ELCs. We can't add a Meier due to cap AND lose players we hope can make it in their ELC window, like Pelts, Zary and hopefully Coronato.

 

Unless we start replacing some players with ELC's this and next year, we will have a huge salary crunch coming.  After next season, we have Backlund, Lindholm, Toffoli, Dube, Ruzicka, Pelletier, Hanifin, Tanev, and Zadorov all coming up UFA or RFA.  Every one of them will cost more and two of them aren't even regular players yet.  As much as we could use a Meier or Horvat, we can't even afford them at their present salary in two years. 

 

I get that you can possibly replace Backlund and Tanev, but we haven't groomed anyone for that.  We are very intent on the next game only.  How do we keep that leader in the room Lucic in the game.  How can we maintain the status quo of low event hockey without the highs and lows of a rookie having a breakout.  Which young player comes out for the next young player to get 8 minutes.  Pelletier and Duehr have had two games where they were impacting the game very shift, yet they are being played like role players.  

 

I know that you don't get immediate results from bringing in a rookie.  Pelletier almost scored on his first shift and in 23 seconds of PP time, but he didn't.  No extra ice for that?  Really, you will see some mistakes and some brilliance, but it takes minutes and trust.  And Sutter is violating his own belief that you don't play a top 6 AHL player on the 4th line.  So why is he?  The 4th line is finding success in limited minutes playing two rookies.  

 

All of this matters.  Whether Fox ever wanted to play in CGY or not, when he was nearing decision time, there was no NHL spot for the taking.  Coronato is coming up to that decision point this year, but also is young enough to not be the critical time to make the decision.  Defer the NHL contract for now?  Harvard degree or $70k in the AHL.  Harvard degree or immediate NHL spot.  He's our top prospect right now.  

[conundrumed]

44 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Am I the only one who isnt getting the fascination of acquiring Meier? He's not even a PPG player but some want to sell the future for him.

He is on a terrible team, but is a dominant player. His stats are consistent. He's not having a "contract year" like Horvat.

Easy bet to be a 30-40g guy for awhile along with great play, well-rounded.

We can't do it, so I'm not fascinated. Love the player though.