Seattle Expansion Draft

[Thebrewcrew]

Seattle will ask for a 1st if the Flames want to keep Gio. It would be a massive mistake.

 

They will look to do exactly what Vegas did and the Flames are also in the same division. No favours will be done. 

[jjgallow]

41 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Seattle will ask for a 1st if the Flames want to keep Gio. It would be a massive mistake.

 

They will look to do exactly what Vegas did and the Flames are also in the same division. No favours will be done. 

 

My take on current management is that they would not do this.   But, they would think about it for an astoundingly long time before arriving at the only plausible answer.

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Seattle will ask for a 1st if the Flames want to keep Gio. It would be a massive mistake.

 

They will look to do exactly what Vegas did and the Flames are also in the same division. No favours will be done. 

 

Then expose Tanev and protect Giordano.  Surely we can trade a 12th overall for an upgrade to Tanev.

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Then expose Tanev and protect Giordano.  Surely we can trade a 12th overall for an upgrade to Tanev.

 

Really? Wasn’t Tanev the best defender on the team this year and probably our most valuable player? Of course that speaks to how poor the team played most of the year.

[The_People1]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

 

Really? Wasn’t Tanev the best defender on the team this year and probably our most valuable player? Of course that speaks to how poor the team played most of the year.

 

He was great for us but a 2nd pairing defensive defenseman shouldn't cost us a 1st rounder... 12th overall.  Can we trade Tanev for Chicago's 13th overall?  Like no way right?

 

Plus, Tanev suffered more injuries to end the season and is signed one year too long.  I don't mind cutting him loose early.

[robrob74]

8 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

He was great for us but a 2nd pairing defensive defenseman shouldn't cost us a 1st rounder... 12th overall.  Can we trade Tanev for Chicago's 13th overall?  Like no way right?

 

Plus, Tanev suffered more injuries to end the season and is signed one year too long.  I don't mind cutting him loose early.

 

i can agree, but worry about the optics for times you need to sign a UFA. If you want to land someone and then drop them after a good year then why would anyone else want to sign. But then again, if it’s about giving opportunity then there are ways to word it.

[jjgallow]

 

We might be able to get an upgrade on Tanev but we're not going to be able to get an upgrade on the whole right-hand side of the ice, the center of the ice, Tanev, and goaltending.

 

the Seattle expansion seems sensitive for us, and it should, because we are teetering on the edge.

 

embrace it lol

[The_People1]

6 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

i can agree, but worry about the optics for times you need to sign a UFA. If you want to land someone and then drop them after a good year then why would anyone else want to sign. But then again, if it’s about giving opportunity then there are ways to word it.

 

I wouldn't worry about optics here because the expansion draft is a one-off.  We not "dropping him" per se.  We are protecting our captain over him.  He has to understand he was an expansion draft risk the day he signed because he didn't negotiate a NMC.

 

It was also rumored VAN offered him $4-mil x 3-years and he took the Flames $4.5-mil x 4-years.  So he chased the money and doesn't care which team he plays for.

[MP5029]

Lol the heck with protecting Gio let the Karaken take him save our draft picks…heck they would be doing Cgy a favour at this point in his career 

[The_People1]

56 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

Lol the heck with protecting Gio let the Karaken take him save our draft picks…heck they would be doing Cgy a favour at this point in his career 

 

Agreed.

 

However, I'm sure BT/Sutter has a Cup window of two years and Giordano still had great advanced stats for us last season.  Still scored as our best D.

[Thebrewcrew]

Really interested to see what side deals Seattle ends up making.

 

One with TB is almost a certainty. They have 5 D they'd like to keep, Hedman/Cernak/Sergachev/McDonagh/Foote. I gotta think TB wants them to take Tyler Johnson, but what's the cost to doing that? In the next two drafts the Lightning only have two top 100 picks, a 3rd this year and a 1st next year. TB doesn't have any high end prospects either. If I'm Francis, I'm telling TB that I need a guy like Cirelli in order to take Johnson off their hands. 

 

I also worry about the Flames making a deal to keep Gio. Seattle has no incentive to help Calgary, they may not even want Gio, but if the Flames are worried about it, the cost will be high. If I was Francis and a divisional rival calls me asking me to stay away from player x, it's simple, give me a 1st and one of your best prospects. Doesn't matter that this is a 38yr old player, if I was the Kraken GM. 

 

 

I think the Kraken will have a pretty solid blueline. Dougie has been linked to them. I think there's a world where Brent Burns is a member of the Kraken as well. Vegas had the same question marks, but right now without knowing which side deals exist, it's hard to see the Kraken being able to score on a consistent basis when they do hit the ice in the fall. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Really interested to see what side deals Seattle ends up making.

 

One with TB is almost a certainty. They have 5 D they'd like to keep, Hedman/Cernak/Sergachev/McDonagh/Foote. I gotta think TB wants them to take Tyler Johnson, but what's the cost to doing that? In the next two drafts the Lightning only have two top 100 picks, a 3rd this year and a 1st next year. TB doesn't have any high end prospects either. If I'm Francis, I'm telling TB that I need a guy like Cirelli in order to take Johnson off their hands. 

 

I also worry about the Flames making a deal to keep Gio. Seattle has no incentive to help Calgary, they may not even want Gio, but if the Flames are worried about it, the cost will be high. If I was Francis and a divisional rival calls me asking me to stay away from player x, it's simple, give me a 1st and one of your best prospects. Doesn't matter that this is a 38yr old player, if I was the Kraken GM. 

 

 

I think the Kraken will have a pretty solid blueline. Dougie has been linked to them. I think there's a world where Brent Burns is a member of the Kraken as well. Vegas had the same question marks, but right now without knowing which side deals exist, it's hard to see the Kraken being able to score on a consistent basis when they do hit the ice in the fall. 

 

The fools are the ones that believe losing a single player is worse than trading to take someone else.

We have nobody that I would value over a 1st.

We talk about trading franchise level players for a 1st, yet there is any discussion about trading a 1st for a 38 year old D-man?

Just insane.

 

I wouldn't even consider Gio over Tanev for protecting.

[Thebrewcrew]

18 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The fools are the ones that believe losing a single player is worse than trading to take someone else.

We have nobody that I would value over a 1st.

We talk about trading franchise level players for a 1st, yet there is any discussion about trading a 1st for a 38 year old D-man?

Just insane.

 

I wouldn't even consider Gio over Tanev for protecting.

I wouldn’t either.

 

I just worry about what the team will do. They’re a better team with Gio than without. I also see a GM that is going to do everything he can to make the playoffs in an attempt to not only save his job, but get an extension as well

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I wouldn’t either.

 

I just worry about what the team will do. They’re a better team with Gio than without. I also see a GM that is going to do everything he can to make the playoffs in an attempt to not only save his job, but get an extension as well

 

I mean, let's face it, BT knows about asset management.

He traded Bennett over losing him for nothing.

He may not make the right choices at times, but he's not about to sacrifice things for a feel good story.

Exposing Gio s a pretty simple decision.

You pay to keep him for a year and lose someone else as well as the trade loss.

Or, you let Seattle decide if they need $6.75m for possibly just one year.

Maybe the get an Engelland type that is the face of the team.

Extend him over value.

Or they get a guy not happy and retires.

[jjgallow]

10 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Agreed.

 

However, I'm sure BT/Sutter has a Cup window of two years and Giordano still had great advanced stats for us last season.  Still scored as our best D.

 

The harder BT tries the harder we will fall, I am neutral on this even though I know the right thing to do is keep the picks.

 

If we keep Giordano it will probably make us even worse by the time Connor Bedard is up for the draft.

 

Keep a great 12th, have a shot at Bedard etc

 

Lose the 12th, keep Gio, have an even better shot at Bedard.    Also probably seal the fate of Treliving, which imho should already be sealed.

 

There is no way out, we have a bit of say in how we get there but that is all.

[MP5029]

15 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Agreed.

 

However, I'm sure BT/Sutter has a Cup window of two years and Giordano still had great advanced stats for us last season.  Still scored as our best D.

That is true, but if it’s a choice to protect Tanev or Gio I think they should expose Gio and protect Tanev 

[travel_dude]

8 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

The harder BT tries the harder we will fall, I am neutral on this even though I know the right thing to do is keep the picks.

 

If we keep Giordano it will probably make us even worse by the time Connor Bedard is up for the draft.

 

Keep a great 12th, have a shot at Bedard etc

 

Lose the 12th, keep Gio, have an even better shot at Bedard.    Also probably seal the fate of Treliving, which imho should already be sealed.

 

There is no way out, we have a bit of say in how we get there but that is all.

 

Your premise is that the 12th is used to protect Gio.

There are many more uses of it that would make us better, so I don't buy into the concept.

Personally, I think the only person that thinks this is a discussion point is Gio.

 

Edit - The premise is based on Francis who will no doubt hold teams ransom.  Some may fall for this, as we saw last time.  I think most have learned that this approach doesn't work out well.

[jjgallow]

7 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Your premise is that the 12th is used to protect Gio.

There are many more uses of it that would make us better, so I don't buy into the concept.

Personally, I think the only person that thinks this is a discussion point is Gio.

 

Edit - The premise is based on Francis who will no doubt hold teams ransom.  Some may fall for this, as we saw last time.  I think most have learned that this approach doesn't work out well.

 

People think I'm always against trading picks but it's not true.

 

I would give up the 12th for a competent GM

[cross16]

He's just speculating but Friedman notes Seattle potentially taking Gio and flipping him.

 

Vegas did this on a smaller scale and it was very successful. Wound up getting multiple 2nd/3rd round picks by loading up on D and then flipping them. 

 

Quote

 

7. I do think some trade discussions are stalled because teams want to make sure they don’t run into expansion protection trouble. You aren’t making a move without making sure it means you don’t get chewed up by the Kraken. And Seattle is leveraging its position.

There are definitely teams concerned that the Kraken will draft exposed players and flip them elsewhere. For example, would Seattle draft a Matt Dumba or a Mark Giordano, potentially eat some salary and take bids? Either player makes sense for someone like Edmonton.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/31-thoughts-blackhawks-must-publicly-address-sexual-assault-allegations/

 

 

[travel_dude]

29 minutes ago, cross16 said:

He's just speculating but Friedman notes Seattle potentially taking Gio and flipping him.

 

Vegas did this on a smaller scale and it was very successful. Wound up getting multiple 2nd/3rd round picks by loading up on D and then flipping them. 

 

 

 

That could very well be the case, but let's not get sucked into it to protect him.

We lose that gamble unless we trade him for something that equals the cost to protect him.

And the optics of doing that are much worse.

 

So it comes down to a few scenarios for me, though some may not be easy or nice:

 

1) Expose Gio - he may net Seattle a decent return, but can't worry about that too much

2) Protect Gio - lose an asset and a player to prevent him from being taken; resign him to shorter contract in 2022

3) Protect Gio - lose an asset and a player to prevent him from being taken; trade him with a retained salary this summer

4) Trade Gio this summer - lose someone else in the draft, retain salary and get something for him 

 

The last two require him to waive his NTC unless we can find a deal within his 11 team list.

 

[robrob74]

11 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

That could very well be the case, but let's not get sucked into it to protect him.

We lose that gamble unless we trade him for something that equals the cost to protect him.

And the optics of doing that are much worse.

 

So it comes down to a few scenarios for me, though some may not be easy or nice:

 

1) Expose Gio - he may net Seattle a decent return, but can't worry about that too much

2) Protect Gio - lose an asset and a player to prevent him from being taken; resign him to shorter contract in 2022

3) Protect Gio - lose an asset and a player to prevent him from being taken; trade him with a retained salary this summer

4) Trade Gio this summer - lose someone else in the draft, retain salary and get something for him 

 

The last two require him to waive his NTC unless we can find a deal within his 11 team list.

 

 

And a team that has the capacity to add him without losing someone they want to retain in expansion. 

It is like Freidman said, teams won't trade until the Kraken has drafted...

[The_People1]

At this point in time, the 2022 1st round pick has to be considered untouchable.  Considering we may return 90% the same team, then we have to assume we get similar results.  Because we are not insane like management.  There's every chance in the world we miss the playoffs again.  We cannot trade away that lotto ticket.  There are too many good players in the top 3 to 10 next year that it's not worth giving up to protect Giordano.

 

Worst case, we offer a 2nd round pick for Kraken to take Lucic or Kylington.  Lucic can still play a bottom 6 role and Giordano may not fetch a 1st round pick next year's TDL.  He may not be that good.  Maybe that's something the Kraken would consider.

 

 

[travel_dude]

5 hours ago, The_People1 said:

At this point in time, the 2022 1st round pick has to be considered untouchable.  Considering we may return 90% the same team, then we have to assume we get similar results.  Because we are not insane like management.  There's every chance in the world we miss the playoffs again.  We cannot trade away that lotto ticket.  There are too many good players in the top 3 to 10 next year that it's not worth giving up to protect Giordano.

 

Worst case, we offer a 2nd round pick for Kraken to take Lucic or Kylington.  Lucic can still play a bottom 6 role and Giordano may not fetch a 1st round pick next year's TDL.  He may not be that good.  Maybe that's something the Kraken would consider.

 

 

 

There are very few I would even trade the 2021 1st for.

Regardless of whether we are a bubble team or a threat to make the playoffs or certain to miss, we have to protect lotto picks.

You can't do that with a offer sheet, so that should be off the table if it includes a 1st.

 

I don't know about Seattle even considering a 2nd to take Lucic.

If it was that simple, then yes it might make sense.

Loss of a good pick.

 

The annoying thing right now is that early 2nd round picks will include some true 1st rounders.

I would actually like to upgrade our 2nd if certain players were available.

A 2nd + EDM's 3rd for a top 5 in round 2.

[robrob74]

8 hours ago, The_People1 said:

At this point in time, the 2022 1st round pick has to be considered untouchable.  Considering we may return 90% the same team, then we have to assume we get similar results.  Because we are not insane like management.  There's every chance in the world we miss the playoffs again.  We cannot trade away that lotto ticket.  There are too many good players in the top 3 to 10 next year that it's not worth giving up to protect Giordano.

 

Worst case, we offer a 2nd round pick for Kraken to take Lucic or Kylington.  Lucic can still play a bottom 6 role and Giordano may not fetch a 1st round pick next year's TDL.  He may not be that good.  Maybe that's something the Kraken would consider.

 

 

 

We are trading it away to fix today. BT is going to trade it for a RW or D player, but I am sure he sees this team as a good team that underachieved. Maybe it's what he has to say, but there are still a lot on here who think that way too. We have good players who aren't willing to do what it takes to take the next step. Monahan means well, but playing through injury halts his growth or potential. I guess we are a playoff team if we beat Ottawa... For whatever reason they couldn't get it up for Ottawa. Viagra play of the year! Even Viagra wouldn't work... The Flames did not see Ottawa as a suitable dance partner. The ugly one in the back of the room. We went home with nothing for it.  

 

As much as it is a good idea, I just see too many reasons for trading the picks. They want NHL players now to compete while Sutter is the coach. 

 

I think it's interesting that the Kraken might make deals with the players they do pick. Why not sell Giordano and eat some Cap space in the meantime. Like, Giordano at half the cap, wouldn't that be a lot better and more suited to Giordano's cost? If Giordano was a $3m or $4M defensemen, do we still play him in all situations? I sometimes think the coaches play guys like Lucic and Giordano because of their salaries, but then, maybe it's because they respect them. 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

There are very few I would even trade the 2021 1st for.

Regardless of whether we are a bubble team or a threat to make the playoffs or certain to miss, we have to protect lotto picks.

You can't do that with a offer sheet, so that should be off the table if it includes a 1st.

 

I don't know about Seattle even considering a 2nd to take Lucic.

If it was that simple, then yes it might make sense.

Loss of a good pick.

 

The annoying thing right now is that early 2nd round picks will include some true 1st rounders.

I would actually like to upgrade our 2nd if certain players were available.

A 2nd + EDM's 3rd for a top 5 in round 2.

 

Maybe this year is the draft to do it? 

 

Can our 12th move us up with a 2nd or 3rd? 

Or will BT trade down again to get a few more picks like he did last year? Tough to get a read on some of the players this year, so it could be a dangerous game.