Andrew Mangiapane

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, MP5029 said:

That’s the driving force behind a full tear down, the problem of how many holes there are to fill and using what little areas of strength we do have to fill a hole then opens a hole in an area we had some strength…it’s a tough call cross the board but I still think…

 

keep Tkacuck

 

 Trade Gauddreau

 

Keep Manji or Dube and trade the other…

 

then try and trade or hope any of the following are picked by the Kraken:

 

Lucic 

gio

backlund

 

Sign Montour from Fla to replace Gio.

 

then use what little assets that are obtained and focus on the top 3 lines filling those holes:

 

 Tachuck/ Monahan/ RW 

manji/Lindholm/ RW

Dube/Ctr/RW

 

it’s a huge on the RW side but it’s been that way since Iggy, in the above situation it give the team 2 decent Ctrs and maximizes the LW strength, if we could manage to pull out another Ctr close to the level of Monahan and Lindholm that would really help…this is where I see going hard after Reinhart makes sense, he’s kinda like Lindholm, better as a RW but dose a solid job of Ctr…it’s kinda an insurance plan then BT can really go hard at trying to get some top level RW’s… or maybe a few more quality Ctrs then there are options for both trades and FA, your not locked into needing a Ctr but they have two what could slide over to RW should the be lucky enough to land a few more quality Ctrs…

 

I see this as the only real option for a real improvement to the team over the next few years.

 

I also think the keys to a quick turnaround, are those two FA in particular as the D sould be solid with Montour replacing Gio and Markstrom as the main G…I think to not only save some dollars on the cap they should bring Wolf up, cause it’s time he be developed and Markstrom sees as good a mentor as any for him to learn from..but he dose need to pay every 3rd game or so to ensure he can pay and develop…sitting and practice he can only learn so much plus Markstrom has shown he dose need some rest time, so this would kind fit well.

 

I don’t think Gaudreau straight up for konecny is a good deal, but add in Farabee and that could be a consideration…I’m not a huge fan of Konecny especially if your 3rd and 2nd line LW are Manji and Dube, Need some size on those lines, andnim

jot 100%!sold on Konecny as a 1st line RW but…

 

Tachuck/Monahan/Konecny 

Manji/Lindholm/Farabee

Dube/Reinhart/ ???

 

it would close some holes on the RW in a one shot deal, and who knows there could be some chemistry there..with the added bonus on only needing to find another RW or Ctr to have three solid lines…that one move combined with signing of Montour and Reinhart could change things in a hurry. Heck maybe they could use any combo of 2nd picks and Backlund or Gio to land Rakell from Anh that would be a perfect opportunity if all those were to fall into place…

 

Tachuck/Monahan/Konecny 

Manji/Lindholm/Farabee

Dube/Reinhart/Rakell

Lucic/Zary/???RW

 

???? Spare FW, Ctr presumably 

 

valimaki/Anderson

Hanifi/Tanev 

montour/Kylington 

 

Spare D - Smith 

 

Markstrom

Wolf 

 

that’s not a bad lineup and it’s not impossible to achieve…something like this should be BT’s game plan, I really don’t see many other options that could be as good as this that would also be as possible to do.

 

 

 

 

I am starting to like a LOT of your posts.   

 

I don't entirely agree with this one, but I still like it.   It is a very noble effort at resurrecting this team.

 

In my mind, something like this would have worked 3-4 years ago and we would Possibly maybe be contenders right now.    
Things started going off the rails when we cut our rebuild short.   Rebuilds take 5 years.  They do.  It sucks.   We tried to do ours in half that time.
And half is what we got.

 

So,....could it still be salvaged to make a competitive team with a cut-short rebuild?     And optimist says yes.

 

Can you do it 4 years later after making constant poor short-term decisions?  

 

It just falls short.   And that's not your fault, it's the math of it.  We just don't have the assets, we made too many short term decisions like a guy who lives off credit cards.   And we need to either declare bankruptcy or do some kind of credit counselling lol.    So in your re-arrangement above, while I admit it's a better lineup than what we have now:

 

1.  Goaltending still a mess imho.   And it's more than just a player issue.   Wolf not ready, Markstrom not reliable at this point.
          ***Wolf on his own is just not enough imho.   
               We should really have two prospects of this calibre plus management changes and Then I would feel comfortable with our future in net. 

 

2.   Defence not cutting it.   Simply put, two first-line D are missing from the above and we have zero chance of acquiring them.  No cards to play.

 

3.   Forwards:   I like what you've done here.  Had we done it earlier with this core, I think it would work.
                        Monahan, unfortunately, may be talented enough to be a first line center but the Flames did not invest in him.

                        He was not developed to be a top center, and the Flames repeatedly played him injured.  

                        He is banged up and it is highly unlikely we'll ever see what he was truely capable of.

                        We will not even get Konecky for Gaudreau.   We would have two years ago, and much more.
                        Now, with Konecky 3 years younger and RHS and Gaudreau showing decline two years in a row, we just won't get that done.

 

 

At the end of the day, even if all of this was somehow executed, IMHO I feel very strongly that while our team would be a bit more balanced, we would still be in the running for Shane Wright and Connor Bedard.

 

Goaltending too far gone, no first-line D, trades on forward near-impossible but still leave you with no first line center.

 

Still, this is one of the best salvage proposals I've seen to date as you didn't just propose trading all our picks.

 

 

We...just...don't...have the assets anymore.   We short-term traded them all away, played them injured, didn't develop them.

 

So, Yes you can continue to make improvements like the above, but it will still take many, many years go be a contender again because the only way to fill the remaining holes is with years of great drafting.   And I mean, like , 10 years.   Because the team gets older every year too.

 

A rebuild, literally, is a "shortcut" to being  a contender.  Yes, maybe 5 years.  But not 10.    Some will say 10 years is pessimistic.   It's not.   Look at our last 30 years.   Once you get behind the 8-ball with your assets, it is unbelievably hard to cycle them back where they should be.
 

So the best way, imho, to address this is major management changes and a rebuild.    Mangiapane is on the fence as to where he fits in here.  Yes he has everything we want.  But he won't when it matters.

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

1.  Goaltending still a mess imho.   And it's more than just a player issue.   Wolf not ready, Markstrom not reliable at this point.
          ***Wolf on his own is just not enough imho.   
               We should really have two prospects of this calibre plus management changes and Then I would feel comfortable with our future in net. 

 

2.   Defence not cutting it.   Simply put, two first-line D are missing from the above and we have zero chance of acquiring them.  No cards to play.

 

3.   Forwards:   I like what you've done here.  Had we done it earlier with this core, I think it would work.
                        Monahan, unfortunately, may be talented enough to be a first line center but the Flames did not invest in him.

                        He was not developed to be a top center, and the Flames repeatedly played him injured.  

                        He is banged up and it is highly unlikely we'll ever see what he was truely capable of.

                        We will not even get Konecky for Gaudreau.   We would have two years ago, and much more.
                        Now, with Konecky 3 years younger and RHS and Gaudreau showing decline two years in a row, we just won't get that done.

 

The concern about Markstrom started and ended with his mid-season play.  Right around the time he was injured.  I get that you are not a fan, but look at the context where his performance was really good, dropped and rebounded.  

 

Defense - well there are a number of D available as UFA's.  

If you are committed to re-tooling, then you trade from the core and bring in a 1/2 D.

 

Forwards - good thing you are not the GM or you would be another Chia.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

The concern about Markstrom started and ended with his mid-season play.  Right around the time he was injured.  I get that you are not a fan, but look at the context where his performance was really good, dropped and rebounded.  

 

Defense - well there are a number of D available as UFA's.  

If you are committed to re-tooling, then you trade from the core and bring in a 1/2 D.

 

Forwards - good thing you are not the GM or you would be another Chia.

 

But.....he...Didn't....get better.   

His last 5 games he was .879.   So sure if that's the context we want to look at I'm fine with it.  Paints a pretty clear picture.

But perhaps a more complete context is the guy has a History of concussions, and is over 30, and we knew this when we acquired him for a Lot of $$$.  You can also look at his past stats and see that he's just never going to give you exceptional goaltending, not even when healthy which he may never be.  So this is more than a concern, and it hasn't ended.

Big picture is the Flames literally do this as a strategy, and it has failed Every...Single..Time...catastrophically, and they don't learn.  ever.

Takes a special kind of glass to fill half full on our goaltending.

 

Defense:  No.  Zero chance.   We killed our cap and we cannot buy ourselves a solution.   Nor is the quality we need available.
                Not unless we're buying a bunch of players out and re-signing them, and also giving up our next few years of picks
                (which caused this mess)

 

Forwards:   You're over-estimating our players worth.   
                  The value of a 5'9 LW not managing anywhere near a point per game at the age of 28.
                  You're always saying I bring up the past too much.  Well this is a case where clinging to the past won't help us in a trade.

                  Chia's not a clue of development or player health and safety so that's that in a nutshell.

[travel_dude]

26 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

But.....he...Didn't....get better.   

His last 5 games he was .879.   So sure if that's the context we want to look at I'm fine with it.  Paints a pretty clear picture.

But perhaps a more complete context is the guy has a History of concussions, and is over 30, and we knew this when we acquired him for a Lot of $$$.  You can also look at his past stats and see that he's just never going to give you exceptional goaltending, not even when healthy which he may never be.  So this is more than a concern, and it hasn't ended.

Big picture is the Flames literally do this as a strategy, and it has failed Every...Single..Time...catastrophically, and they don't learn.  ever.

Takes a special kind of glass to fill half full on our goaltending.

 

Defense:  No.  Zero chance.   We killed our cap and we cannot buy ourselves a solution.   Nor is the quality we need available.
                Not unless we're buying a bunch of players out and re-signing them, and also giving up our next few years of picks
                (which caused this mess)

 

Forwards:   You're over-estimating our players worth.   
                  The value of a 5'9 LW not managing anywhere near a point per game at the age of 28.
                  You're always saying I bring up the past too much.  Well this is a case where clinging to the past won't help us in a trade.

                  Chia's not a clue of development or player health and safety so that's that in a nutshell.

 

Last 10 games starting with oldest:

900 and 2 GA

938 and 2 GA

917 and 2 GA

968 and 2 GA

926 and 2 GA

789 and 4 GA

950 and 1 GA

960 and 1 GA

857 and 5 GA

905 and 2 GA

 

Average it out for the last 5 and that is 879.  But feel free to use stats to support your cause.  It happened to be a 7-3-0 record no matter how you look at it.

I know you are against the Markstrom signing and have been since day 1.  Over 30 goalies are the worst thing to have.  Montreal, NY, Vegas all agree 100%.  

Poor Tampa, only 3 years left of a useful goalie.

 

I'm sure Askarov will eventually come to the US.

Only took Sorokin to age 26.

[jjgallow]

43 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Last 10 games starting with oldest:

900 and 2 GA

938 and 2 GA

917 and 2 GA

968 and 2 GA

926 and 2 GA

789 and 4 GA

950 and 1 GA

960 and 1 GA

857 and 5 GA

905 and 2 GA

 

Average it out for the last 5 and that is 879.  But feel free to use stats to support your cause.  It happened to be a 7-3-0 record no matter how you look at it.

I know you are against the Markstrom signing and have been since day 1.  Over 30 goalies are the worst thing to have.  Montreal, NY, Vegas all agree 100%.  

Poor Tampa, only 3 years left of a useful goalie.

 

I'm sure Askarov will eventually come to the US.

Only took Sorokin to age 26.

 

So that's .905 over 10 games which is still well below average for a starter.  I'm sorry but that's bad.    All this shows is that he got progressively worse over the last 10 games, I'm not sure what the arguement even is.   On top of that they were meaningless games and not every team was trying to win them that badly.

 

Montreal, NY, Vegas are all cupless teams.  Why are we talking about them.

 

Sorry but you can't twist Tampa into an arguement for signing on older goaltenders lol.  Let's be real.   That didn't make sense in 2004 and it makes a whole lot less sense now.

 

I honestly don't see a single valid point here.  But sure...if we really got into it, and we have...you could find case examples where signing an older goaltender...Sort of...maybe worked.    I'm willing to accept that it's possible.   I'm not willing to accept that it's possible for the Flames with our current management  and track record in this area and I don't know why you would.

 

You know they're going to turn on Markstrom like they have every other goalie, and sign another historical artifact on.  Will you defend that too?  When does it stop?  What is even happening here lol.   

[MP5029]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I am starting to like a LOT of your posts.   

 

I don't entirely agree with this one, but I still like it.   It is a very noble effort at resurrecting this team.

 

In my mind, something like this would have worked 3-4 years ago and we would Possibly maybe be contenders right now.    
Things started going off the rails when we cut our rebuild short.   Rebuilds take 5 years.  They do.  It sucks.   We tried to do ours in half that time.
And half is what we got.

 

So,....could it still be salvaged to make a competitive team with a cut-short rebuild?     And optimist says yes.

 

Can you do it 4 years later after making constant poor short-term decisions?  

 

It just falls short.   And that's not your fault, it's the math of it.  We just don't have the assets, we made too many short term decisions like a guy who lives off credit cards.   And we need to either declare bankruptcy or do some kind of credit counselling lol.    So in your re-arrangement above, while I admit it's a better lineup than what we have now:

 

1.  Goaltending still a mess imho.   And it's more than just a player issue.   Wolf not ready, Markstrom not reliable at this point.
          ***Wolf on his own is just not enough imho.   
               We should really have two prospects of this calibre plus management changes and Then I would feel comfortable with our future in net. 

 

2.   Defence not cutting it.   Simply put, two first-line D are missing from the above and we have zero chance of acquiring them.  No cards to play.

 

3.   Forwards:   I like what you've done here.  Had we done it earlier with this core, I think it would work.
                        Monahan, unfortunately, may be talented enough to be a first line center but the Flames did not invest in him.

                        He was not developed to be a top center, and the Flames repeatedly played him injured.  

                        He is banged up and it is highly unlikely we'll ever see what he was truely capable of.

                        We will not even get Konecky for Gaudreau.   We would have two years ago, and much more.
                        Now, with Konecky 3 years younger and RHS and Gaudreau showing decline two years in a row, we just won't get that done.

 

 

At the end of the day, even if all of this was somehow executed, IMHO I feel very strongly that while our team would be a bit more balanced, we would still be in the running for Shane Wright and Connor Bedard.

 

Goaltending too far gone, no first-line D, trades on forward near-impossible but still leave you with no first line center.

 

Still, this is one of the best salvage proposals I've seen to date as you didn't just propose trading all our picks.

 

 

We...just...don't...have the assets anymore.   We short-term traded them all away, played them injured, didn't develop them.

 

So, Yes you can continue to make improvements like the above, but it will still take many, many years go be a contender again because the only way to fill the remaining holes is with years of great drafting.   And I mean, like , 10 years.   Because the team gets older every year too.

 

A rebuild, literally, is a "shortcut" to being  a contender.  Yes, maybe 5 years.  But not 10.    Some will say 10 years is pessimistic.   It's not.   Look at our last 30 years.   Once you get behind the 8-ball with your assets, it is unbelievably hard to cycle them back where they should be.
 

So the best way, imho, to address this is major management changes and a rebuild.    Mangiapane is on the fence as to where he fits in here.  Yes he has everything we want.  But he won't when it matters.

Thanks bro and I have to say the same for mostly your post too😊, especially given the Flames track record over the past 20 years..your point is very solid regarding development and everything… my above game plan was to ice a team and use our picks over the next few years to draft and develop them properly (well hopefully cause Cgy’s been bad here too) I was more so thinking of those moves could be made it would give Sutter something to work with, and possibly a playoff team if say Monahan heals up and Tachuck rebounds etc.. it’s kinda a transition team which maybe if all else fails some of these assets could be used in a year or two to take a run at some serious talent in the 22-23 drafts… maybe even, and depending on what it costs and who’s left over grab a solid D in this draft maybe move up for a change? Or grab another low 1st pick and draft 2 1/2 decent D…then in 2022 & 2023 start trading off some more players…maybe Monahan and Lindholm, hopefully grabs another top tier pick in 2022 plus and quite possibly our 1st is a very high pick…it works out pretty good too cause D often take longer to develop so focus this year on drafting D in a deep D draft (who that’s a lot of D’s lol) but that’s kinda the second part to the plan.

[jjgallow]

6 hours ago, MP5029 said:

Thanks bro and I have to say the same for mostly your post too😊, especially given the Flames track record over the past 20 years..your point is very solid regarding development and everything… my above game plan was to ice a team and use our picks over the next few years to draft and develop them properly (well hopefully cause Cgy’s been bad here too) I was more so thinking of those moves could be made it would give Sutter something to work with, and possibly a playoff team if say Monahan heals up and Tachuck rebounds etc.. it’s kinda a transition team which maybe if all else fails some of these assets could be used in a year or two to take a run at some serious talent in the 22-23 drafts… maybe even, and depending on what it costs and who’s left over grab a solid D in this draft maybe move up for a change? Or grab another low 1st pick and draft 2 1/2 decent D…then in 2022 & 2023 start trading off some more players…maybe Monahan and Lindholm, hopefully grabs another top tier pick in 2022 plus and quite possibly our 1st is a very high pick…it works out pretty good too cause D often take longer to develop so focus this year on drafting D in a deep D draft (who that’s a lot of D’s lol) but that’s kinda the second part to the plan.

 

Yeah if you're going for the transition team I think it's a solid plan.   I personally gave up on it some time ago but I do understand  why some want it.   And then there are those that feel even a transition team is too extreme lol.   Quite the variety of opinions.

[MP5029]

14 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Yeah if you're going for the transition team I think it's a solid plan.   I personally gave up on it some time ago but I do understand  why some want it.   And then there are those that feel even a transition team is too extreme lol.   Quite the variety of opinions.

Lol I agree, and if not for Sutter coming in on a short term mandate to

win, I’d not even consider a transitional group, but it’s pretty clear owners and Mgt are not ready yet and are going to try to get this team into playoff and cup contention…will not work? Probably not..if it were me I’d be trading everyone less Tachuck, Lindholm, Valimaki, Anderson and Hanifin…I’d rebuild around those five starting with trying to grab another 1st round pick in this draft and trying to hopefully grab another 2 D prospects… or 1 D and 1G…whatever then round it out in 1-3 years either by FA or trades…basically start rebuilding from the back end…and try and grab as many 1st round picks for 2022 and 2023 draft and start rebuilding that forward group which by then Tachuck and Lindholm will be experienced enough but still young enough to be leaders and possibly still quite productive.

 

 

[jjgallow]

31 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

Lol I agree, and if not for Sutter coming in on a short term mandate to

win, I’d not even consider a transitional group, but it’s pretty clear owners and Mgt are not ready yet and are going to try to get this team into playoff and cup contention…will not work? Probably not..if it were me I’d be trading everyone less Tachuck, Lindholm, Valimaki, Anderson and Hanifin…I’d rebuild around those five starting with trying to grab another 1st round pick in this draft and trying to hopefully grab another 2 D prospects… or 1 D and 1G…whatever then round it out in 1-3 years either by FA or trades…basically start rebuilding from the back end…and try and grab as many 1st round picks for 2022 and 2023 draft and start rebuilding that forward group which by then Tachuck and Lindholm will be experienced enough but still young enough to be leaders and possibly still quite productive.

 

That would be the dream to me in a draft like this.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, MP5029 said:

Lol I agree, and if not for Sutter coming in on a short term mandate to

win, I’d not even consider a transitional group, but it’s pretty clear owners and Mgt are not ready yet and are going to try to get this team into playoff and cup contention…will not work? Probably not..if it were me I’d be trading everyone less Tachuck, Lindholm, Valimaki, Anderson and Hanifin…I’d rebuild around those five starting with trying to grab another 1st round pick in this draft and trying to hopefully grab another 2 D prospects… or 1 D and 1G…whatever then round it out in 1-3 years either by FA or trades…basically start rebuilding from the back end…and try and grab as many 1st round picks for 2022 and 2023 draft and start rebuilding that forward group which by then Tachuck and Lindholm will be experienced enough but still young enough to be leaders and possibly still quite productive.

 

 

 

28 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

That would be the dream to me in a draft like this.

 

The thing that teams have in common that get 1st rounders in trade is that they trade away players that are productive on the end of their contracts.

If you keep that core you mentioned, you have Gaudreau and Monahan actually worth anything.

Tanev and Markstrom in the last year of their deals.

You are not getting a raft of 1st rounders for that.

 

And that's kind of where I see our team making the wrong decisions on UFA's and with our own players.

Gio should have been dealt before TDL this year.

At worst, he gets dealt next TDL, and that's assuming he has a decent season.

We didn't sign players for 2 year deals, and had nothing to deal.

You can't trade a Gaudreau at TDL when he has 1.5 years left.

 

I don't have a problem with signing Markstrom or Tanev.  We needed those two roles, whether they performed up to standard or not.

Signing Neal to 5 years and then being stuck with Lucic.

Too many one year deals on marginal players.

Could have traded Leivo if he had a good season.

But he didn't.

The list goes on.

Barrie could have been had for less than $4m, but we wouldn't do a show me deal unless it's one of our own.

EDM could have traded him for a 1st at TDL. 

[MP5029]

5 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

The thing that teams have in common that get 1st rounders in trade is that they trade away players that are productive on the end of their contracts.

If you keep that core you mentioned, you have Gaudreau and Monahan actually worth anything.

Tanev and Markstrom in the last year of their deals.

You are not getting a raft of 1st rounders for that.

 

And that's kind of where I see our team making the wrong decisions on UFA's and with our own players.

Gio should have been dealt before TDL this year.

At worst, he gets dealt next TDL, and that's assuming he has a decent season.

We didn't sign players for 2 year deals, and had nothing to deal.

You can't trade a Gaudreau at TDL when he has 1.5 years left.

 

I don't have a problem with signing Markstrom or Tanev.  We needed those two roles, whether they performed up to standard or not.

Signing Neal to 5 years and then being stuck with Lucic.

Too many one year deals on marginal players.

Could have traded Leivo if he had a good season.

But he didn't.

The list goes on.

Barrie could have been had for less than $4m, but we wouldn't do a show me deal unless it's one of our own.

EDM could have traded him for a 1st at TDL. 

Um ok fair points TD but the question is what to do now..burn it all (trade everyone you can) or try and build a transitional team and hopefully we get luck over the next few drafts? 

[travel_dude]

11 hours ago, MP5029 said:

Um ok fair points TD but the question is what to do now..burn it all (trade everyone you can) or try and build a transitional team and hopefully we get luck over the next few drafts? 

 

I just don't see a burn it down happening with this team.

The owners would prefer to be a playoff team, even if it's once every two years,  than 5 years away from possibly getting it right.

5 years is really just a guess, because a stud D would take that long, and that assumes we have the other pieces.

What is right and what we will do is probably not the same.

I like the idea of a competetive team, but it has to be getting better.

Coaching was a bit of a teardown, so that may actually help.

Or make it worse.

 

Like I said, we have systemic issues that we need to overcome to take a big step.

The money spent is not matching the production.

And the oldest players are not being transitioned.

 

[MP5029]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

I just don't see a burn it down happening with this team.

The owners would prefer to be a playoff team, even if it's once every two years,  than 5 years away from possibly getting it right.

5 years is really just a guess, because a stud D would take that long, and that assumes we have the other pieces.

What is right and what we will do is probably not the same.

I like the idea of a competetive team, but it has to be getting better.

Coaching was a bit of a teardown, so that may actually help.

Or make it worse.

 

Like I said, we have systemic issues that we need to overcome to take a big step.

The money spent is not matching the production.

And the oldest players are not being transitioned.

 

That last para sums it up very well! 😊👍

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I just don't see a burn it down happening with this team.

The owners would prefer to be a playoff team, even if it's once every two years,  than 5 years away from possibly getting it right.

5 years is really just a guess, because a stud D would take that long, and that assumes we have the other pieces.

What is right and what we will do is probably not the same.

I like the idea of a competetive team, but it has to be getting better.

Coaching was a bit of a teardown, so that may actually help.

Or make it worse.

 

Like I said, we have systemic issues that we need to overcome to take a big step.

The money spent is not matching the production.

And the oldest players are not being transitioned.

 

if we wanted a fast turnaround it would mean selling everything off this year, after the draft. Do what Toronto did when they actually got good hockey people in the organization to replace Burke. Trade everything worth a 1st rounder off and get as many as possible. Really go for that 1st overall and hope to gain 2-3or4 other 1st rounders in next years draft. Keep the youngest pieces. 
 

we would have to retain salary to do it. The biggest problem would be to get to the Cap Floor.  I am not sure if we are allowed to retain cap space, but if that helps get to the floor?

 

draft BPA ideally D and G this year. Next year focus on BPA forwards. 

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I just don't see a burn it down happening with this team.

The owners would prefer to be a playoff team, even if it's once every two years,  than 5 years away from possibly getting it right.

5 years is really just a guess, because a stud D would take that long, and that assumes we have the other pieces.

What is right and what we will do is probably not the same.

I like the idea of a competetive team, but it has to be getting better.

Coaching was a bit of a teardown, so that may actually help.

Or make it worse.

 

Yeah, I agree with this.   I mean, I don't agree with the owners, but I agree with your take on where they're at.

 

Let me just say that this is...aweful.   Our City deserves better.

 

You can't live in this life being afraid of failure, there has to be a thirst for success.  But I think you're right about them.

 

I will say these two things:

1.  People and owners can change.   This ownership has been talked into rebuilds before, and they will again.   Even if they've never followed through all the way.

2.  Even if we don't burn it down, it won't stop us from rebuilding.   Rebuilds happen to you when you run out of cards to play.   That's about to be us.

 

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Like I said, we have systemic issues that we need to overcome to take a big step.

The money spent is not matching the production.

And the oldest players are not being transitioned.

 

Also agreed, well said.

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

I will say these two things:

1.  People and owners can change.   This ownership has been talked into rebuilds before, and they will again.   Even if they've never followed through all the way.

2.  Even if we don't burn it down, it won't stop us from rebuilding.   Rebuilds happen to you when you run out of cards to play.   That's about to be us.

 

The only reason why we went rebuild was the end of the Iggy legacy.

Other than trading JBow and asking Kipper to be traded, we really did more of a retool.

We were a poorly constructed team then.

Way more so than today.

 

I don't agree about us running out of cards to play.

It's more about can they parlay what they have into better.

Where we run into problems is not moving on at the right time.

Gio is providing value, but it's time to move on and use the cap better.

Lucic is the exact same.

Backlund is a good value, but not for 3rd line and will start to decline over time.

Which sounds funny saying, since Bergeron is 35 and still a top C.

 

There are a ton of good NHL players that could help us.

Some through FA, some in trades, etc.

What's stopping us, and has hindered us, is the large amount of cap spent on some players.

Not the top younger guys.

Dead cap space is one thing, but we have $21m spent on 4 players over 32.

On a contender that is not an issue so much.

 

 

[sak22]

41 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

if we wanted a fast turnaround it would mean selling everything off this year, after the draft. Do what Toronto did when they actually got good hockey people in the organization to replace Burke. Trade everything worth a 1st rounder off and get as many as possible. Really go for that 1st overall and hope to gain 2-3or4 other 1st rounders in next years draft. Keep the youngest pieces. 
 

we would have to retain salary to do it. The biggest problem would be to get to the Cap Floor.  I am not sure if we are allowed to retain cap space, but if that helps get to the floor?

 

draft BPA ideally D and G this year. Next year focus on BPA forwards. 

During that stretch Toronto got 2 additional firsts from trades, one for Franson and one for Kessel.  They didn't make a selection with either spot.  Trading one for Anderssen and continually trading down on another.  Of all those trade downs all they have to show is Travis Dermott, who went right before Aho.  Having kept their original pick they could've had Konecny, Roslovic or Beauvillier.  Meanwhile their most desirable tradeable assets at that time were JVR, Kadri, Gardiner, and Bozak.  The team held on to all of them with only Kadri being moved for something.  Lets not kid ourselves, if Arizona takes Marner instead of Strome in 2015, and the 2016 lottery plays out differently the Leafs are a middling team at best.  If I compare how the teams have been run since Burke left Toronto, I don't think Toronto has done anything significantly better than the Flames outside of getting #4 in the right year, being last and winning a lottery for one of the 3 biggest prizes the last decade and generally being a more desirable market.  

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I just don't see a burn it down happening with this team.

The owners would prefer to be a playoff team, even if it's once every two years,  than 5 years away from possibly getting it right.

5 years is really just a guess, because a stud D would take that long, and that assumes we have the other pieces.

What is right and what we will do is probably not the same.

I like the idea of a competetive team, but it has to be getting better.

Coaching was a bit of a teardown, so that may actually help.

Or make it worse.

 

Like I said, we have systemic issues that we need to overcome to take a big step.

The money spent is not matching the production.

And the oldest players are not being transitioned.

 

So how much would the arena negotiations factor into this?  I understand having a basement dwelling team isnt going to make the public opinion of a new arena any better but a bubble/1st round exit team doesnt really show too well either.

 

Would a Cup winner/finalist or even semi-finalist make an arena deal easier to sell?

[cross16]

16 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

So how much would the arena negotiations factor into this?  I understand having a basement dwelling team isnt going to make the public opinion of a new arena any better but a bubble/1st round exit team doesnt really show too well either.

 

Would a Cup winner/finalist or even semi-finalist make an arena deal easier to sell?

 

 

Well important to note, the arena deal is done. At this point the only way the city could get out would be to breach a contract and I don't see how that decision would be influenced by how fans view the team. 

 

The issue would be filling said building once it's done and when tickets will increase. Are fans going to be willing to pay more of a premium once the shine of the new arena deal is off?

 

I would be concerned about that if I were an owner, but at the same time that decision is 3-4 years down the road. While I understand and like the idea of rebuilding now it should be noted that there is no guarantee the results are any better 3-4 years from now so I can also appreciate what the logic i'm applying would not be applied by the owners. 

[rocketdoctor]

hmm thought this was the Mangipane thread..................

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

28 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

 

Well important to note, the arena deal is done. At this point the only way the city could get out would be to breach a contract and I don't see how that decision would be influenced by how fans view the team. 

 

The issue would be filling said building once it's done and when tickets will increase. Are fans going to be willing to pay more of a premium once the shine of the new arena deal is off?

 

I would be concerned about that if I were an owner, but at the same time that decision is 3-4 years down the road. While I understand and like the idea of rebuilding now it should be noted that there is no guarantee the results are any better 3-4 years from now so I can also appreciate what the logic i'm applying would not be applied by the owners. 

Ah didnt realize that, good to know.

 

11 minutes ago, rocketdoctor said:

hmm thought this was the Mangipane thread..................

Ya, kinda rare that a thread would go off topic.....

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, sak22 said:

During that stretch Toronto got 2 additional firsts from trades, one for Franson and one for Kessel.  They didn't make a selection with either spot.  Trading one for Anderssen and continually trading down on another.  Of all those trade downs all they have to show is Travis Dermott, who went right before Aho.  Having kept their original pick they could've had Konecny, Roslovic or Beauvillier.  Meanwhile their most desirable tradeable assets at that time were JVR, Kadri, Gardiner, and Bozak.  The team held on to all of them with only Kadri being moved for something.  Lets not kid ourselves, if Arizona takes Marner instead of Strome in 2015, and the 2016 lottery plays out differently the Leafs are a middling team at best.  If I compare how the teams have been run since Burke left Toronto, I don't think Toronto has done anything significantly better than the Flames outside of getting #4 in the right year, being last and winning a lottery for one of the 3 biggest prizes the last decade and generally being a more desirable market.  

 

a part of that is the tank part. Accumulate picks and possibly win the lottery. You could say it’s lucky but it’s how it goes. And if teams aren’t willing to go that extra step in a tank, then you get what the Flames are now. 
 

Bennett not working out was a huge blow…

 

but I am not meaning to be like Toronto is god, just that their stars Are a big part of their team and the rebuild. How they used their picks is irrelevant to us because who would we pick if we were in that situation? It assumed we would take the same player in their spot. Maybe we take Aho instead? 
 

they’re not really built that great, kind of Oilers-like. But would we build the same way if we got those pieces?

 

it’s tough to say. I mean, I am saying that we should accumulate picks to get better odds. But if we just say we’d draft those same players it’s an indication that our drafting isn’t that great either. 

[robrob74]

4 hours ago, rocketdoctor said:

hmm thought this was the Mangipane thread..................

the problem with the threads are, when you click Next on the bottom, it doesn’t say what thread you’re being sent to. So when I read a post, I reply to the post and don’t scroll back to see the topic thread. 

[MP5029]

Lol yes this topic thread did get a bit off topic, but part in part of evaluation of Manji and his role here/or not pending where you stand, has a lot to do with what’s going on with Tachuck, Gaudreau and the over all direction BT takes…with that in mind, manji’s  value on a trade and if not trade where to slot him totally depends on what BT doses with everyone else…there is even debate on if the do opt to trade everyone (well mostly) is Manji’s current value worth moving him now too with his recent international play…or keep him as part of the rebuild and if so…is he the 3rd liner LW or can he manage 2nd line well enough? 
 

anyway I believe that’s why his thread went left instead of right, mostly cause all these other points directly impact Manji and where (or if) he’s slotted on the team this coming year. pretty much everything being discussed is actually indirectly related to Manj  

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

the problem with the threads are, when you click Next on the bottom, it doesn’t say what thread you’re being sent to. So when I read a post, I reply to the post and don’t scroll back to see the topic thread. 

 

http://fans.flames.nhl.com/community/

 

I go to the main page and click on the various forums that interest me.

Then I select the thread and see which one is important to me.

Go to last page and scroll to the first unread post (by my calculation).

That way, I can go back and refresh how it played out that way.

 

That way you don't get sucked into a Blwo it up thread unless you want to.

 

Oh, and BTW.

Go Mangiapane Go.  🙂