Andrew Mangiapane

[travel_dude]

48 minutes ago, zima said:

I was reading about the possible trade to Buffalo and the start was about the Chaisson trade of course I didn't pay attention of the date at the start mental block 🤪

 

No big deal.

I'm glad we didn't do something like that again.

 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

33 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

No big deal.

I'm glad we didn't do something like that again.

 

Bbbbut he looked soooo good with McJesus. Maybe they should take the risk.

[robrob74]

8 hours ago, zima said:

So now that we got Chaisson back were do you think he will trend 3rd or 4th line?

we got Chaisson back? Did I miss something?

play him 4th line? 
 

I didn’t mind him, but I thought Reider deserved another shot in Calgary.

[travel_dude]

34 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

we got Chaisson back? Did I miss something?

play him 4th line? 
 

I didn’t mind him, but I thought Reider deserved another shot in Calgary.

 

Zima was having a vad Google day.

EDM fans hated him, and that's saying something.

 

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Zima was having a vad Google day.

EDM fans hated him, and that's saying something.

 

 

yup! That’s a relief! Happens to us all sometimes. 

[rocketdoctor]

Love the video with Mangeipane showing off his Medal and MVP award.  Guy cannot stop smiling!

 

Any thoughts that Managipane would make a good A or C on the Flames?

 

 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

2 hours ago, rocketdoctor said:

Love the video with Mangeipane showing off his Medal and MVP award.  Guy cannot stop smiling!

 

Any thoughts that Managipane would make a good A or C on the Flames?

 

 

I think once the shuffling of the chairs is done this off season he makes a good candidate for an early contract extension.  If he gets full time 2LW and PP duties his #s and value will only go up.

[LouCifer]

29 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

I think once the shuffling of the chairs is done this off season he makes a good candidate for an early contract extension.  If he gets full time 2LW and PP duties his #s and value will only go up.

Give him an A after the extension

 

I'd like to acquire more players that have high give-a-Satoshi Nakamoto-o-meters like Mange. Based on what I saw in the past, Andersson is that type of player as well, I just believe he's being quiet with the current leadership group and potentially being coached to play different instead of to his strengths. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, lou44291 said:

Give him an A after the extension

 

I'd like to acquire more players that have high give-a-Satoshi Nakamoto-o-meters like Mange. Based on what I saw in the past, Andersson is that type of player as well, I just believe he's being quiet with the current leadership group and potentially being coached to play different instead of to his strengths. 

 

I don't know about the A part.  He's exactly the guy you want to back up going into battle.

You are right about the GAS attitude being strong.

 

Confidence with Ras and Valimaki is not that strong.

Both have abilities that are not being exploited.

I can't fathom why he looks off a shot when he has a lane available.

Almost looks like he is told to pass to me by someone.

Sutter wants more pucks on net, but he spent most of the time as a the guy to let his partner decide things.

 

 

[MP5029]

I gotta say maji is a likeable fella and down to earth type...

 

love this guy but with all that being said, he’s a sell high option at the moment, I’d love to keep him here in Cgy but would also be a classy move to trade him to a contender this off-season...maybe to TO? 
 

as much as I love Sutter, I think he’s about 2 years too late coming back this team needs a full reset, and Manji has definitely earned the chance to play on a contender.

 

having said that, maybe wait and see what moves BT makes, it’s not impossible that IF he makes a few solid moves, Sutter could have them compete again but if we are being honest, that’s a long shot...I’d say IF Cgy were to move Manji and make a classy move for a guy who has battled hard and earned a chance, and Cgy is out of it, trade him at or before the TDL this coming year.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, MP5029 said:

I gotta say maji is a likeable fella and down to earth type...

 

love this guy but with all that being said, he’s a sell high option at the moment, I’d love to keep him here in Cgy but would also be a classy move to trade him to a contender this off-season...maybe to TO? 
 

as much as I love Sutter, I think he’s about 2 years too late coming back this team needs a full reset, and Manji has definitely earned the chance to play on a contender.

 

having said that, maybe wait and see what moves BT makes, it’s not impossible that IF he makes a few solid moves, Sutter could have them compete again but if we are being honest, that’s a long shot...I’d say IF Cgy were to move Manji and make a classy move for a guy who has battled hard and earned a chance, and Cgy is out of it, trade him at or before the TDL this coming year.

 

We can always hope for a 20-player trade with Tampa, sure.

 

that aside, totally agree, Mangiapane truly a great guy.  

 

And....lol....he's at a sell high point right now lol

[travel_dude]

10 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

We can always hope for a 20-player trade with Tampa, sure.

 

that aside, totally agree, Mangiapane truly a great guy.  

 

And....lol....he's at a sell high point right now lol

 

We saw pretty amazing results from a player that played mostly 3rd line minutes and 2nd PP time.

And yet, the guy has barely two seasons under his belt.

Two partial seasons and 1/2 another.

We know we have a gem, but this is not a sell high player yet.

Sure, teams watched his progression and impact at the WC, but he's not even close to sell high value.

 

 

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

We saw pretty amazing results from a player that played mostly 3rd line minutes and 2nd PP time.

And yet, the guy has barely two seasons under his belt.

Two partial seasons and 1/2 another.

We know we have a gem, but this is not a sell high player yet.

Sure, teams watched his progression and impact at the WC, but he's not even close to sell high value.

 

I will argue pretty strongly that he is, as I did when Gaudreau was at his high (which was thoroughly shot down then lol).

 

You know yourself you are glass half full which is maybe something I could be a bit more often.   But it's hard to be that and pick the sell high points.

 

Age, size, team..  You've got a guy that is in his career peak by age/size, could possibly improve one more year, then again may not.  A lot of forwards continue to improve heading to the age of 26.   Not a lot are able to sustain it past 26.   The story of support players briefly showing they could be more around this age is not uncommon.

 

He has other roadblocks.   If he improves further, he's the type of player who will likely show it in the playoffs.  Good luck with that, on the Flames.    His production per minute is already really high, isn't going to get higher.    The only way you see more production out of him is way more minutes.

 

Unfortunately for him, he's a LW on the Flames.   So that's out.  Tkachuk...Might... Might..Maybe...get more minutes, and Gaudreau will eat up everything under that.   Because as much as we advocate for the Flames to fix that situation, they won't.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm just saying he would be a good trade piece.   I'm not saying we should actively boot him off the team.     

 

I completely agree with you that he is the type of player a playoff team wants, especially next year.   But, that's not us.   And that is exactly why trading him could make sense right now and might actually be the best thing we could do for Mangiapane himself.   Not that I'd get worked up about it either way.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

Unfortunately for him, he's a LW on the Flames.   So that's out.  Tkachuk...Might... Might..Maybe...get more minutes, and Gaudreau will eat up everything under that.   Because as much as we advocate for the Flames to fix that situation, they won't.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm just saying he would be a good trade piece.   I'm not saying we should actively boot him off the team.     

 

I completely agree with you that he is the type of player a playoff team wants, especially next year.   But, that's not us.   And that is exactly why trading him could make sense right now and might actually be the best thing we could do for Mangiapane himself.   Not that I'd get worked up about it either way.

 

He has played with Tkachuk (3M line) with him playing LW.

But the point is, that trading him only makes sense if we keeping the other guys.

 

P/60 is one thing.  He managed to be good playing with Lucic.  Let that sink in.

That rate will improve if he plays less defensive time.

 

If you think he's more likely to trend down because he is reaching the end of his peak (LOL), that is fine.

Why you want to trade him is because you think he has a good trade value.

That's fine, but not sure why you think that makes sense.

What is he worth right now?  A 2nd?

Big stinking deal.

 

You talk about drafting and development, but we have a success story and you think the sensible thing is to trade him for a pick.

Perpetual shiny new toys. 

[MP5029]

13 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

He has played with Tkachuk (3M line) with him playing LW.

But the point is, that trading him only makes sense if we keeping the other guys.

 

P/60 is one thing.  He managed to be good playing with Lucic.  Let that sink in.

That rate will improve if he plays less defensive time.

 

If you think he's more likely to trend down because he is reaching the end of his peak (LOL), that is fine.

Why you want to trade him is because you think he has a good trade value.

That's fine, but not sure why you think that makes sense.

What is he worth right now?  A 2nd?

Big stinking deal.

 

You talk about drafting and development, but we have a success story and you think the sensible thing is to trade him for a pick.

Perpetual shiny new toys. 

No, he’s at a peak, and keeping him will only hold him back, as far as his value, now maybe a 2nd...at TDL...depending on how his season goes, may land a late first 

[jjgallow]

16 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

He has played with Tkachuk (3M line) with him playing LW.

But the point is, that trading him only makes sense if we keeping the other guys.

 

P/60 is one thing.  He managed to be good playing with Lucic.  Let that sink in.

That rate will improve if he plays less defensive time.

 

If you think he's more likely to trend down because he is reaching the end of his peak (LOL), that is fine.

Why you want to trade him is because you think he has a good trade value.

That's fine, but not sure why you think that makes sense.

What is he worth right now?  A 2nd?

Big stinking deal.

 

You talk about drafting and development, but we have a success story and you think the sensible thing is to trade him for a pick.

Perpetual shiny new toys. 

 

You're right, it only makes sense if we keep the other LW's and I know he can play off-position but if that's the plan then again he can't really improve.

 

No, if I had the power,  he wouldn't be my first trade choice.   But I would do something pretty drastic like trade Gaudreau And Tkachuk lol.

 

Since that's not happening,  you said it yourself.    It only makes sense if the others stay.   And given how this organization operates, they will stay.

 

The bottom line is nobody here now older than 25 can significantly help this team the next time it's going to matter.

 

Yes I like draft picks but I'm not fleeting.  I am totally cool with a build process that doesn't  see playoffs until 2025, 2026.   Plenty of patience here.

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

You're right, it only makes sense if we keep the other LW's and I know he can play off-position but if that's the plan then again he can't really improve.

 

No, if I had the power,  he wouldn't be my first trade choice.   But I would do something pretty drastic like trade Gaudreau And Tkachuk lol.

 

Since that's not happening,  you said it yourself.    It only makes sense if the others stay.   And given how this organization operates, they will stay.

 

The bottom line is nobody here now older than 25 can significantly help this team the next time it's going to matter.

 

Yes I like draft picks but I'm not fleeting.  I am totally cool with a build process that doesn't  see playoffs until 2025, 2026.   Plenty of patience here.

 

No, I think I said no rebuild.

Trading Tkachuk and/or Gaudreau and/or Monahan for players and picks and prospects isn't rebuild.

Trading them for picks is.

 

Most team fork up the rebuild.

The successful ones recognize the players they need to keep to get there.

Has there been any?

Not without the contributions on the way and during an actual run by those so called players that were >25 at the start of the cycle.

 

[jjgallow]

4 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

No, I think I said no rebuild.

Trading Tkachuk and/or Gaudreau and/or Monahan for players and picks and prospects isn't rebuild.

Trading them for picks is.

 

Most team fork up the rebuild.

The successful ones recognize the players they need to keep to get there.

Has there been any?

Not without the contributions on the way and during an actual run by those so called players that were >25 at the start of the cycle.

 

 

Unless you manage to trade all those players strictly for players who are significantly better and stay under the cap, I don't personally think a rebuild is a choice anymore.   A couple years ago we had the choice of going into a rebuild.   Now, the rebuild is going to happen to us.   Or should we say "full retool".

 

We're arguing about something other than Mangiapane here, for the most part.   He's not going to get any better Here, specifically, imho.    

 

If our situation was not so messed up in so many ways, I would say yeah, peak or no peak, run his career through.

 

But it's..too late.  It really is.

[LouCifer]

1 hour ago, MP5029 said:

No, he’s at a peak, and keeping him will only hold him back, as far as his value, now maybe a 2nd...at TDL...depending on how his season goes, may land a late first 

Wow. You think he’s hit his peak? This guy keeps getting better, all while the ship is sinking around him. Could you imagine what he’d do on a team that shows up every night? 😬

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, lou44291 said:

Wow. You think he’s hit his peak? This guy keeps getting better, all while the ship is sinking around him. Could you imagine what he’d do on a team that shows up every night? 😬

 

i think that is what a few people are arguing they are in favour of, sending him to a team that could use him to succeed because out of the players here, he’s part of a small group that actually tries when the going gets tough in a playoff push or playoff situations. And my guess is that that helps expedite the retool or build by picking higher in the draft.

[LouCifer]

9 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

i think that is what a few people are arguing they are in favour of, sending him to a team that could use him to succeed because out of the players here, he’s part of a small group that actually tries when the going gets tough in a playoff push or playoff situations. And my guess is that that helps expedite the retool or build by picking higher in the draft.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood. I’m guessing MP thinks he’s hit his peak with this team? Sure, it looks pretty bleak right now, but if we put him on PP1 and give him “better” linemates than he’s had thus far - I think he will raise his value higher (not that I’d support trading him as my kids and I have watched him since he played in Barrie. Plus he’s a family favorite that’s playing for our favorite nhl team!) 

[jjgallow]

17 minutes ago, lou44291 said:

 

Perhaps I misunderstood. I’m guessing MP thinks he’s hit his peak with this team? Sure, it looks pretty bleak right now, but if we put him on PP1 and give him “better” linemates than he’s had thus far - I think he will raise his value higher (not that I’d support trading him as my kids and I have watched him since he played in Barrie. Plus he’s a family favorite that’s playing for our favorite nhl team!) 

 

Both.  I think for practical purposes we're saying he's hit his peak with this team yes, and the point being made is he's more likely to have success on a contender etc or really just any team that isn't so LW heavy, or can make the playoffs.

 

That's the main point.  It's no disrespect to him, more about what's better for him.

 

 

A second, more controversial and less important point, is that yes there is a wide misconception about when players peak.   Hockey is still a little archaic in how it promotes players, as evidenced when you look at their production per minute.    It takes FAR too long to promote players relative to their performance level.   And it takes far too long to demote them.  

 

Put another way, if Mangiapane were given more minutes last season, he would have been one of our top scorers.     In the same breath, we've taken so long to figure this out (the Flames are particularly bad at this), that we've already burned through some of his best years.

 

https://hockey-graphs.com/2017/03/23/a-new-look-at-aging-curves-for-nhl-skaters-part-1/

 

 

The available data is pretty clear, players play their best hockey around 23-24 years of age.     Their teams figure this out typically about 2 years later, when they're approaching 26, and start to give them more minutes.   So it looks like they're entering their prime but really it's their team actually giving them a chance.   And then they're usually left in those roles far too long.

 

If you look at Mangiapane's advanced stats, he literally IS this chart.

 

So that's why I say we shouldn't expect marked improvements from him other than giving him more minutes, which won't happen on the Flames but could happen elsewhere.

 

[travel_dude]

Statistical averages are fine, but don't do well at predicting individual players.

To make matters worse, you are using old data.

One would expect that a 33 year old Crosby would have much more wear and tear due to the era he was a standout.

Or a 40 year old Seabrooke.

 

Any exception is a blip in the graph, you won't even see.

 

By using this graph as a predictor, Mangiapane already declined.

Not even a single full season played and already on the decline.

Never mind he was passed over in the draft.

Or that he plied his craft in the AHL for two years.

Him and Monahan and Gaudreau will see sharp declines in production.

The graph already predicted it.

 

I'm sure STL is losing sleep because ROR is 30 now.  Must have been lucky to get anything out of him in his declining years from Age 25 on.

All downhill for McDavid and Draisaitl.

Poor EDM.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

Statistical averages are fine, but don't do well at predicting individual players.

To make matters worse, you are using old data.

One would expect that a 33 year old Crosby would have much more wear and tear due to the era he was a standout.

Or a 40 year old Seabrooke.

 

Any exception is a blip in the graph, you won't even see.

 

By using this graph as a predictor, Mangiapane already declined.

Not even a single full season played and already on the decline.

Never mind he was passed over in the draft.

Or that he plied his craft in the AHL for two years.

Him and Monahan and Gaudreau will see sharp declines in production.

The graph already predicted it.

 

I'm sure STL is losing sleep because ROR is 30 now.  Must have been lucky to get anything out of him in his declining years from Age 25 on.

All downhill for McDavid and Draisaitl.

Poor EDM.

.....

...  um....what do you mean Will decline...lol?   They literally embody that graph, it's already happened.  There is no fighting this, it would take one heck of an anti-aging cream.   Also, since this data came out, average NHL ages are getting younger so ...there's that.

 

And yes I agree with you about Mangiapane having more shelf life, Although...we do have to keep in mind he's high energy.

That is why I've used a context where he peaks 2 years later than that graph shows.  Which still puts him pretty near that peak.

[zima]

So have we become the new Oilers we seem to destroy these good players they come here as soon to be great players and we seem to screw them up and then we rely on BT to trade for better players but end up with accouple of sloppy seconds while the player we traded goes on to be a top player else where isn't that the theme in Edmonton? I know I sound like a broken record if you even read my text after the last stupid post but why would we rely on BT to do this job perhaps we should keep him to do the contracts but stay away from doing any trades just way to scary.