Curtis Lazar

[TrippinVdUb]

Those are some lofty expectaions for a kid with 1 assist this season. I think hes on the same development cure as Ferly, they are similar player's. Both have shown they can play and excell with good linemates so long as they play with in there strengths.

 

Im a big fan of this trade but also realize there maybe some significant growing pains before we see a return on the investment, if we see it at all.

 

Id hold off on expectations until I see a large enough sample size, training camp next season will give us a good idea of what we have in Curtis.

[cross16]

I'll be very surprised if Lazar gets to be a 15 goal 40 guy. I think a more realistic comp is Eric Nystrom type, with a bit more offence. I think its easy to forget with Glencross, but he could really shoot the puck. Could pick his corners, pick his speeds and had a better than avg release. Lazar doesn't posses that type of shot, he's more about scoring the goals the hard way. That is an asset for sure, but I think its hard to consistently score 15 or more goals playing like that in the NHL.

 

I think he is Nystrom like in that if he can stick in the NHL, which I think is probably, you'll love him for everything that he does and take his offence as a bonus. I do think he thinks the game better than Nystrom so his raw numbers should be better, but I don't think a 40 point guy. That is a borderline 2nd line winger and I think that is a bit too high for what his skill set is, for me at least. 

 

 

[MAC331]

25 minutes ago, TrippinVdUb said:

Those are some lofty expectaions for a kid with 1 assist this season. I think hes on the same development cure as Ferly, they are similar player's. Both have shown they can play and excell with good linemates so long as they play with in there strengths.

 

Im a big fan of this trade but also realize there maybe some significant growing pains before we see a return on the investment, if we see it at all.

 

Id hold off on expectations until I see a large enough sample size, training camp next season will give us a good idea of what we have in Curtis.

Lazar has a golden opportunity here and he knows it, what he does with it is up to him. If we expose Brouwer and lose him it opens up one RW spot. If they want to move Ferland back to LW there will be 2 RW openings with the closest players being Lazar and Pribyl in house now. If they move Stajan this offseason there is a C opening. Let's hope Lazar takes the opportunity and runs with it. I see him as a player with more smarts than braun which is why I see him as more than a bottom 6 player but even if he works out as a flex 3rd liner than can play up higher its good for the Flames.

[TrippinVdUb]

1 minute ago, MAC331 said:

Lazar has a golden opportunity here and he knows it, what he does with it is up to him. If we expose Brouwer and lose him it opens up one RW spot. If they want to move Ferland back to LW there will be 2 RW openings with the closest players being Lazar and Pribyl in house now. If they move Stajan this offseason there is a C opening. Let's hope Lazar takes the opportunity and runs with it. I see him as a player with more smarts than braun which is why I see him as more than a bottom 6 player but even if he works out as a flex 3rd liner than can play up higher its good for the Flames.

Agreed, the potential is there. Kid just needs to put in the work. Exposing Brower is just a bonus, although Im not as down on him as most. I saw him as the best fit with the flames out of last offseasons UFA group. 

 

 

[jjgallow]

 

Just wanted to say that I love this trade.   I'm not saying he will be our next captain or our leading scorer.

 

What I am saying, is he's got better odds of being an impact player than any 2nd round pick this year +Jokipaka.

 

He Also has better odds, due to his demeanor and his position (RW) of being excellent depth for the Flames.

 

He may flop, but so can a 2nd round pick (most do).   

 

Love everything about it.  I think we got:

 

• The Better Player
• The better odds of developing an elite player
• Better Depth
• Better future leadership

 

I think, worst case scenario, this trade makes sense.  Best case scenario, we hose the Sens, and they may deeply regret this one day.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

I'll be very surprised if Lazar gets to be a 15 goal 40 guy. I think a more realistic comp is Eric Nystrom type, with a bit more offence. I think its easy to forget with Glencross, but he could really shoot the puck. Could pick his corners, pick his speeds and had a better than avg release. Lazar doesn't posses that type of shot, he's more about scoring the goals the hard way. That is an asset for sure, but I think its hard to consistently score 15 or more goals playing like that in the NHL.

 

I think he is Nystrom like in that if he can stick in the NHL, which I think is probably, you'll love him for everything that he does and take his offence as a bonus. I do think he thinks the game better than Nystrom so his raw numbers should be better, but I don't think a 40 point guy. That is a borderline 2nd line winger and I think that is a bit too high for what his skill set is, for me at least. 

 

 

 

But was Glencross touted as what he turned out to be? Why would edm give up on him if they knew?

[cross16]

25 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

But was Glencross touted as what he turned out to be? Why would edm give up on him if they knew?

 

Because Kevin Lowe was the GM.... did you need anything more than that? 

 

But to answer the question, yes i think when the Flames signed Glencross the expectation was you were getting someone who could pot you 15-20 goals and be a real good 3rd liner. I may be fuzzy on this but I seem to recall he reasoning was the Flames offered him more term/salary than Oilers were comfortable with and the OIlers thought Brodziak had raised the level of Glencross game so they weren't comfortable paying the money he got from Calgary. He got a 3 year 1.2 mill per deal and now you are going "that's cheap") but at that time that was good 3rd line money. 

The year before he came here he put up 15 goals and 25 points in only 62 games so he was on his way. He's also a guy that I know coaches/pepole that watched him in College said he was a really talented kid but flew under the radar. 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Because Kevin Lowe was the GM.... did you need anything more than that? 

 

But to answer the question, yes i think when the Flames signed Glencross the expectation was you were getting someone who could pot you 15-20 goals and be a real good 3rd liner. I may be fuzzy on this but I seem to recall he reasoning was the Flames offered him more term/salary than Oilers were comfortable with and the OIlers thought Brodziak had raised the level of Glencross game so they weren't comfortable paying the money he got from Calgary. He got a 3 year 1.2 mill per deal and now you are going "that's cheap") but at that time that was good 3rd line money. 

The year before he came here he put up 15 goals and 25 points in only 62 games so he was on his way. He's also a guy that I know coaches/pepole that watched him in College said he was a really talented kid but flew under the radar. 

 

Didnt they botch the timing like how Tallon botched it in Chicago? They missed out on the sign and the Flames scooped him right away? 

 

Maybe, because I didn't know him, I thought energy guy who could pop 10-15. He ended up better than expected.

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Because Kevin Lowe was the GM.... did you need anything more than that? 

 

But to answer the question, yes i think when the Flames signed Glencross the expectation was you were getting someone who could pot you 15-20 goals and be a real good 3rd liner. I may be fuzzy on this but I seem to recall he reasoning was the Flames offered him more term/salary than Oilers were comfortable with and the OIlers thought Brodziak had raised the level of Glencross game so they weren't comfortable paying the money he got from Calgary. He got a 3 year 1.2 mill per deal and now you are going "that's cheap") but at that time that was good 3rd line money. 

The year before he came here he put up 15 goals and 25 points in only 62 games so he was on his way. He's also a guy that I know coaches/pepole that watched him in College said he was a really talented kid but flew under the radar. 

Glencross was a solid 3rd liner who had the ability to play higher up and did but lacked the ambition on given nights IMO. I won't say Glencross was lazy but he sure went missing for periods of time. I think we need to just get Lazar back on track and encourage the best out of him, only then will we find out what that upside is for is NHL career.

[cross16]

36 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Didnt they botch the timing like how Tallon botched it in Chicago? They missed out on the sign and the Flames scooped him right away? 

 

Maybe, because I didn't know him, I thought energy guy who could pop 10-15. He ended up better than expected.

Could very well be. I hadn't heard that angle before but wouldn't put it past Edmonton. That was right in the peak of their mismanagement. 

 

Fair to say he exceeded expectations I would say. Just saying though he had more than "3rd line talent" and could really shoot the puck, so it may not make the best comparison and in Lazar's case I don't think its a great comparison personally that's all. I agree with MaC, Glencross dissapered alot and I actually thought he could have been a 30 goal scorer if he was able to bring it every night. 

[redfire11]

Many people place nhl players worth on point/goal production. I occasionally fall into that category but when I pull my head out of my azz I see players like Frolik, Geo, and YES Engeland working hard every shift doing the little things that take us from an average team to a good team. This is MY expectation for Lazar not the big points that were expected of him in Ottawa by management and fans. Expecting a strong work ethic from him as he knows this second chance could be his last.

[robrob74]

9 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Glencross was a solid 3rd liner who had the ability to play higher up and did but lacked the ambition on given nights IMO. I won't say Glencross was lazy but he sure went missing for periods of time. I think we need to just get Lazar back on track and encourage the best out of him, only then will we find out what that upside is for is NHL career.

 

The truth is, everyone goes missing occasionally unless you're 1st liners. That's the reality of how good the NHL is. Being engaged every night must be hard as well. 

[tmac70]

This was a good trade. We have a younger guy that has NHL ability and is still in a development stage. Anyone that's been there having someone that believes in you and provides that chance is HUGE. Now is Lazer going to light the league on fire, no, but he is going to be a good 3rd liner fill in 2nd if need be. He is a straight line player who plays a simple game, which fits this system. He will be fine, if he puts up 20-30 points i would be fantastic. He is a better project than Chasson.

[MAC331]

8 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

The truth is, everyone goes missing occasionally unless you're 1st liners. That's the reality of how good the NHL is. Being engaged every night must be hard as well. 

This is also why some never reach their full potential. This hasn't been the case with Lazar in OTT as they have botched the whole development approach with Lazar IMO. I am pleased to see this move to obtain him and he seems to be well aware of the new start opportunity here.

[jjgallow]

A lot of times on here we have debates about starting players too early in the NHL.

 

Some of us believe it's case by case, some of us believe it is almost exclusively a bad idea to start too early.

 

Either way, Curtis is an example of a player who is a victim of his own success.  Had he not done so well in the WJC, my guess is he would have been given a year in the AHL, allowing him to transition his junior dominance to pro dominance, in a more realistic way.

 

Now, it is truthfully a bit of a tricky situation to get him the development he needs.   Which is why the Senators bailed.  But if the Flames can pull off what they did with Backlund, for instance, it's a great trade.   And if they can pull off even more, it could be epic.

[DirtyDeeds]

Seems he has some sort of upper body injury.

Rotoworld is usually pretty accurate with this stuff.

[TrippinVdUb]

My favorite part of this trade is that it goes against what every analytic, stat obsessed critic out there has to say, it's a deal that was made because someone believes this kid can beat the odds, I bet Grapes loves this story lol. 

[robrob74]

43 minutes ago, TrippinVdUb said:

My favorite part of this trade is that it goes against what every analytic, stat obsessed critic out there has to say, it's a deal that was made because someone believes this kid can beat the odds, I bet Grapes loves this story lol. 

 

I like it too. My first response was biased because of what fans have said, then I realized not every first rounder makes it, or ends up a top6 forward. The reality is, his development was botched because he didn't do an extra year of junior then go AHL. We did that with Baertschi and Backlund. Both are on the better side of their down Years. Backlund, thank god, has developed into a gem. 

 

He didnt have great AHL numbers either. Some players develop faster than others, and backs was a bit slower than some and developed far better than a lot that never made it. 

[MAC331]

10 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I like it too. My first response was biased because of what fans have said, then I realized not every first rounder makes it, or ends up a top6 forward. The reality is, his development was botched because he didn't do an extra year of junior then go AHL. We did that with Baertschi and Backlund. Both are on the better side of their down Years. Backlund, thank god, has developed into a gem. 

 

He didnt have great AHL numbers either. Some players develop faster than others, and backs was a bit slower than some and developed far better than a lot that never made it. 

Backlund's misfortune or fortune was coming to the Flames with Sutter as a coach that preferred veteran players. It was almost like Backlund became his whipping boy and Sutter wasn't ever going to use him until he learned some defense and improved his overall game. Backlund is the player he is today because of how Sutter made sure he had all the tools to be an NHL player. They tried the same approach with Baertschi who just didn't want to put in the work.

[TrippinVdUb]

3 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Backlund's misfortune or fortune was coming to the Flames with Sutter as a coach that preferred veteran players. It was almost like Backlund became his whipping boy and Sutter wasn't ever going to use him until he learned some defense and improved his overall game. Backlund is the player he is today because of how Sutter made sure he had all the tools to be an NHL player. They tried the same approach with Baertschi who just didn't want to put in the work.

The book on Sven all through Jr was that he was always the hardest working player on the ice, first one on at practice and the last one off. He was condemned by Hartley because he was prone to defensive lapses and would loose puck battles along the boards, kid just wasn't there yet.

 

Backs was thrown on to a team with almost zero NHL caliber centers and asked to play 1st line duties right off the hop and when ever he would make a mistake Sutter would glue his checking from behind to the bench and than demote him to  a 4th line role.

 

Neither coaches were willing to live with the players on ice mistakes, so every time they jumped over the boards they were so consumed with not making any that they weren't playing to there strengths. Backs started to turn it around after working extensively with a sports psychologist to get over his mental hurdles.

[robrob74]

4 minutes ago, TrippinVdUb said:

The book on Sven all through Jr was that he was always the hardest working player on the ice, first one on at practice and the last one off. He was condemned by Hartley because he was prone to defensive lapses and would loose puck battles along the boards, kid just wasn't there yet.

 

Backs was thrown on to a team with almost zero NHL caliber centers and asked to play 1st line duties right off the hop and when ever he would make a mistake Sutter would glue his checking from behind to the bench and than demote him to  a 4th line role.

 

Neither coaches were willing to live with the players on ice mistakes, so every time they jumped over the boards they were so consumed with not making any that they weren't playing to there strengths. Backs started to turn it around after working extensively with a sports psychologist to get over his mental hurdles.

 

 

I think we are quite lucky that Backlund persevered. 

 

The only ones they allowed to make mistakes were Monahan and Gaudreau, Brodie too, to an extent.

[DirtyDeeds]

40 minutes ago, TrippinVdUb said:

The book on Sven all through Jr was that he was always the hardest working player on the ice, first one on at practice and the last one off. He was condemned by Hartley because he was prone to defensive lapses and would loose puck battles along the boards, kid just wasn't there yet.

 

Backs was thrown on to a team with almost zero NHL caliber centers and asked to play 1st line duties right off the hop and when ever he would make a mistake Sutter would glue his checking from behind to the bench and than demote him to  a 4th line role.

 

Neither coaches were willing to live with the players on ice mistakes, so every time they jumped over the boards they were so consumed with not making any that they weren't playing to there strengths. Backs started to turn it around after working extensively with a sports psychologist to get over his mental hurdles.

I don't think you arte leaving the right impression. Backs extra coaching was not extensive with a phycholgist..

 

It was:

Backlund is training with Mats Emanuelsson this summer, a strength coach who has also worked a lot with Daniel and Henrik Sedin.
http://canucksarmy.com/2012/6/12/mikael-backlund-hopes-for-more-next-year

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/meet-the-trainers-these-six-men-help-nhl-stars-get-ready-to-shine

This was the biggest reason for his turn around.

 

Also many times Backs said he was not working hard enough or making mistakes. Especially during the times he was sent back down to Heat. The closest thing I remeber him saying anything about mental adjustments was when BH was incoming as new coach and he said something along lines of "maybe time for a new voice in the dressing room".

 

BH sat him and Sven almost same time. Backs responded and Sven not so much. Backs has not looked back(bit of a pun) since.

 

[TrippinVdUb]

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/Flames+Backlund+puts+struggles+past/9312813/story.html

 

http://kelownarockets.com/backlund-in-calgary_43400

 

These are only a couple of articles that touch on this but I remember him talking about it quite a bit in the past

[DirtyDeeds]

3 minutes ago, TrippinVdUb said:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/Flames+Backlund+puts+struggles+past/9312813/story.html

 

http://kelownarockets.com/backlund-in-calgary_43400

 

These are only a couple of articles that touch on this but I remember him talking about it quite a bit in the past

Darryl Belfry, a skills coach and playmaking coach.

Is not a sports pshychologist, He is a skills and playmaking coach.

Reading a book about "mental tough" back when he was still with the Rockets isn't exactly a time fit either although I suppose it touches on mental fitness a bit.

 

Darryl Belfry is credited with changing his thinking the game. He was told to hold on to the puck longer and make the best play instead of the safe play. This was a huge factor in turning around his game.

 

Anyway not a big deal. I just think you are leaving the wrong impression of some learning Backs did pre Flames.

[TrippinVdUb]

1 hour ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Darryl Belfry, a skills coach and playmaking coach.

Is not a sports pshychologist, He is a skills and playmaking coach.

Reading a book about "mental tough" back when he was still with the Rockets isn't exactly a time fit either although I suppose it touches on mental fitness a bit.

 

Darryl Belfry is credited with changing his thinking the game. He was told to hold on to the puck longer and make the best play instead of the safe play. This was a huge factor in turning around his game.

 

Anyway not a big deal. I just think you are leaving the wrong impression of some learning Backs did pre Flames.

Fair enough, i know those wernt the best examples but I whole heartetly remember Backs crediting his time with the sports shirk as to a big reason why he got through his early struggles.