Goaltending

[robrob74]

30 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

 

For me right now , its coming down to , i do like our tandem better than last year.. were it not for the Knee Injury , I think Ramo played as good as Elliot . Cant put my finger on it but for some reason yes, Elliot adapts to the team in front of him more.. Johnson was used to a bad team in front of him in Buffalo, hence hes been stealing games here. Hes a better fit.

Personally , I dont see Elliot being resigned, Johnson yes.. and wont be too surprised to see Rittich get a look real soon.. i think he may be the next to arrive as a backup . hes been a Great surprise .

 

It's not that I don't like Elliott, I want him to play well, and he has from time to time, but not always looking pretty while doing it. 

[phoenix66]

53 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

It's not that I don't like Elliott, I want him to play well, and he has from time to time, but not always looking pretty while doing it. 

 Oh i agree 100%.. i was one of the biggest fans to bring him here.. and he certainly hasnt forgotten how to be a goalie in 1 summer.. but he is struggling with something, his timing , his confidence..something ...    having seen that , and knowing how many options will be available this summer , coupled with the Raise Johnson will get even as a backup .. says hes not going to get his #1 payday here..

On the flipside, im really glad its him and not Fleury or Bishop we're having this conversation about.;.neither have been great this year (before the injury in Bishops case).. really the only name from the hot list who is remotely living up to his billing is Anderson ..and even then ...

[MAC331]

14 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

 Oh i agree 100%.. i was one of the biggest fans to bring him here.. and he certainly hasnt forgotten how to be a goalie in 1 summer.. but he is struggling with something, his timing , his confidence..something ...    having seen that , and knowing how many options will be available this summer , coupled with the Raise Johnson will get even as a backup .. says hes not going to get his #1 payday here..

On the flipside, im really glad its him and not Fleury or Bishop we're having this conversation about.;.neither have been great this year (before the injury in Bishops case).. really the only name from the hot list who is remotely living up to his billing is Anderson ..and even then ...

I think Elliott is a victim of trying "to hard", remember that expression. This is why it is good to have two good goalies as one struggles, last season we had 3 struggling goalies that never really found themselves.

[jjgallow]

 

On one hand, the Flames have goaltended their way to me thinking about eating my words by end of season.

 

On the other hand, at 15th overall in the NHL, this is, imho, a Worst Case scenario and the ultimate problem with band-aids.

 

With nearly zero chance of winning the cup,

With not exceptionally good odds of making the playoffs,

With nearly zero chance of a top 5 draft pick,

With the bad-aid relying on 30-something goalies, and our next top goaltending prospect (Gillies) not a clear AHL starter.

With Edmonton and Columbus clearly ahead of us in the standings in what appears to be a long term trend

With zero chance of acquiring prospects at the trade deadline

 

Essentially, more of the same drift we've seen over the last 10 years.

 

We've watched other teams take it on the chin in their rebuilds, and actually take their rebuilds seriously.   We did the "right thing" by never really committing to any one thing.  And floated through our rebuild with mediocrity, and no solid plan to advance from there.

 

But yes, our 30-something goaltenders have allowed us to be in the middle of the league.  A definite "improvement".

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

On one hand, the Flames have goaltended their way to me thinking about eating my words by end of season.

 

On the other hand, at 15th overall in the NHL, this is, imho, a Worst Case scenario and the ultimate problem with band-aids.

 

With nearly zero chance of winning the cup,

With not exceptionally good odds of making the playoffs,

With nearly zero chance of a top 5 draft pick,

With the bad-aid relying on 30-something goalies, and our next top goaltending prospect (Gillies) not a clear AHL starter.

With Edmonton and Columbus clearly ahead of us in the standings in what appears to be a long term trend

With zero chance of acquiring prospects at the trade deadline

 

Essentially, more of the same drift we've seen over the last 10 years.

 

We've watched other teams take it on the chin in their rebuilds, and actually take their rebuilds seriously.   We did the "right thing" by never really committing to any one thing.  And floated through our rebuild with mediocrity, and no solid plan to advance from there.

 

But yes, our 30-something goaltenders have allowed us to be in the middle of the league.  A definite "improvement".

 

 

Isnt Johnson 27?

 

edit: checked, he is 30. Not terribly old. Even if he became serviceable for another 5-6 years it gives us time for the youngsters to age into their position.

[AlbertaBoy12]

8 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

Isnt Johnson 27?

 

edit: checked, he is 30. Not terribly old. Even if he became serviceable for another 5-6 years it gives us time for the youngsters to age into their position.

JJ just likes to stir things up and come up with the most ridiculous arguements to support his conclusions. He would be happy if we were last in the league if Ortio was in net.

[jjgallow]

6 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Which teams are those?

 

Outside of Chicago who rebuilt "better" or differently than the Flames?

 

I WANT to answer your question

 

But maybe I should steer this disorderly chaos more towards goaltending, at least for this thread.

 

At .923 and 15th in the league, Chad Johnson is doing roughly what you would expect of an under-rated 30 something backup thrust into a starter position.

 

He's had highs and lows this season, and it basically ends up blending to his typical career totals.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=69015

 

Hopefully Elliot bounces back.

 

At the end of the day we are doing what we thought we would...we have, on average better goaltending, but not exceptional goaltending.  We had some streaks of elite goaltending.  We had some streaks of AHL goaltending.    

 

And this has, as we discussed at the start of the season, allowed us to be average, as a team.  Yes, 'IF' statements can place us much higher or lower due to the tightness of the league.  And yet, we are, almost exactly where we thought we'd be.   Math and probability have a way.  We're improved, but not by adding Cup-contending talent.  We improved with band-aids.  We "rebuilt" during some of the most premium draft years in over two decades.   And we somehow avoided All of the superstars in that time  (McDavid, Eichel, Matthews, Patrick).

 

We avoided some of the best future NHL goalies and defencemen that will make the cornerstone of NHL franchises...one of which whom already has won a cup for his team.

 

In return, we got a single playoff round.  In one of those years.

 

Frustrating.  

 

So then, we finally took goaltending seriously, and drafted Parsons.  And he's awesome.  And he'll hit his prime, just as the current team starts to come out of its prime.  To ensure average for the next decade.

[jjgallow]

20 hours ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

JJ just likes to stir things up and come up with the most ridiculous arguements to support his conclusions. He would be happy if we were last in the league if Ortio was in net.

 

Maybe lol...did you miss me?

 

Put another way:  I'd like the Flames to win a cup.

[cross16]

So you guys would prefer to build a team based on hopes, dreams, wishes and lottery odds? Sound about right?  Edmonton did that and is anyone actually going to suggest that Edmonton chances at winning a cup in the next 5-7 years are really better than Calgarys?

 

Makes zero sense to me to me why we are complaining about a team that could make the playoffs twice in 4 years during a rebuild and only be in year 4 of that rebuild. Why is it we assuming the Flames aren't going to continue to get better or have maxed out with this current version? I think this team is only going to get better. 

 

Also makes  no sense why we are writing off Jon Gilles, Mason McDonald and assuming they have nothing in David rittich. Seems to me a lot of people would prefer to make bold predictions and have a team built their own way instead of how teams are realistically built. 

[jjgallow]

9 minutes ago, cross16 said:

So you guys would prefer to build a team based on hopes, dreams, wishes and lottery odds? Sound about right?  

 

Not what's on the table, no.  Sounds out of left field to be honest.  Sounds more like...what's happening now.

 

9 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Edmonton did that and is anyone actually going to suggest that Edmonton chances at winning a cup in the next 5-7 years are really better than Calgarys?

 

At this point, it kills me to say this, but yes.  I think their chances are better and continuing to get better.    I do not see any plans from Calgary to improve past this point at a rate faster than veteran players decline.

 

I'm not advocating what they did.  I'm not even giving them credit for it.   But McDavid has put them over the top, and attracted the kind of players they needed.

 

9 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Makes zero sense to me to me why we are complaining about a team that could make the playoffs twice in 4 years during a rebuild and only be in year 4 of that rebuild. Why is it we assuming the Flames aren't going to continue to get better or have maxed out with this current version? I think this team is only going to get better. 

 

How?  You see better goaltending coming?  Cup winning goaltending...from where?          (trying to stay on topic).   Definitely don't see better defence, likely getting worse.  Offensive may improve marginally, and plateau.

 

9 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Also makes  no sense why we are writing off Jon Gilles, Mason McDonald and assuming they have nothing in David rittich. Seems to me a lot of people would prefer to make bold predictions and have a team built their own way instead of how teams are realistically built. 

 

Not that long ago, it made no sense to write off Ortio.  Or a handful of similar.

 

That's just the thing.  The Flames wrote them off when they created a veteran glut in goaltending.    Neither Gillies nor Riitich are playing enough to develop properly.

 

Mason McDonald is a huge project at best, at this point.  Ok, maybe he's getting close to write-off.  Never liked him to be honest, poor draft pick.   But the rest?

 

Mismanagement is the issue, not talent.

 

 

[AlbertaBoy12]

29 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Not what's on the table, no.  Sounds out of left field to be honest.  Sounds more like...what's happening now.

 

 

At this point, it kills me to say this, but yes.  I think their chances are better and continuing to get better.    I do not see any plans from Calgary to improve past this point at a rate faster than veteran players decline.

 

I'm not advocating what they did.  I'm not even giving them credit for it.   But McDavid has put them over the top, and attracted the kind of players they needed.

 

 

How?  You see better goaltending coming?  Cup winning goaltending...from where?          (trying to stay on topic).   Definitely don't see better defence, likely getting worse.  Offensive may improve marginally, and plateau.

 

 

Not that long ago, it made no sense to write off Ortio.  Or a handful of similar.

 

That's just the thing.  The Flames wrote them off when they created a veteran glut in goaltending.    Neither Gillies nor Riitich are playing enough to develop properly.

 

Mason McDonald is a huge project at best, at this point.  Ok, maybe he's getting close to write-off.  Never liked him to be honest, poor draft pick.   But the rest?

 

Mismanagement is the issue, not talent.

 

 

Seriously JJ, mason mcdonald isent a write off, its not like hes 29 or something the kid has lots of years to develop, most goalies dont make it till their late 20s. I dont see where you getting this idea from that you need to play a whole crap ton of games as a goalie in a season to develop into a good goalie. Take a look at cam talbot in edmonton, his season high during his development years was 55 games that happened one time, and alot of people would say hes a very solid goalie now.

 

I dont think you need a carey price level goalie to win a cup, corey crawford is not a superstar goalie his season high is .926 unless you count 5 games in 07-08 where he was .929, the majority of his career has been around .920 which last time I checked is about league average.

[CheersMan]

Wow!  Just WOW! 

Johnson stops 3 straight breakaways in the 3^rd to preserve the win and not one comment here from the peanut gallery.  He has a 0.923 SA% while playing mostly contenders yet some still want the other guy.  Others would sooner talk about how poorly we drafted down center recently, our weakest position at the time and would rather seen some far fetched dmen choices instead.  The Benny Hill show was funny but this stuff here above………

[cross16]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Not what's on the table, no.  Sounds out of left field to be honest.  Sounds more like...what's happening now.

 

 

At this point, it kills me to say this, but yes.  I think their chances are better and continuing to get better.    I do not see any plans from Calgary to improve past this point at a rate faster than veteran players decline.

 

I'm not advocating what they did.  I'm not even giving them credit for it.   But McDavid has put them over the top, and attracted the kind of players they needed.

 

 

How?  You see better goaltending coming?  Cup winning goaltending...from where?          (trying to stay on topic).   Definitely don't see better defence, likely getting worse.  Offensive may improve marginally, and plateau.

 

 

Not that long ago, it made no sense to write off Ortio.  Or a handful of similar.

 

That's just the thing.  The Flames wrote them off when they created a veteran glut in goaltending.    Neither Gillies nor Riitich are playing enough to develop properly.

 

Mason McDonald is a huge project at best, at this point.  Ok, maybe he's getting close to write-off.  Never liked him to be honest, poor draft pick.   But the rest?

 

Mismanagement is the issue, not talent.

 

 

 

I could respond but we are never going to agree on this issue so i'm not sure I see the value in going back and forth and I don't see things near as negatively as you do. Not sure why you continue to see so much negativity in a team you are supposed to be a "fan" of. I would find that exhausting but to each his own.

 

I'll say this. If you look at the last 35 games (reasonable when you consider they have a new coach), the Flames are tied for the 9th most wins in the league. And just in case people think its all due to goaltender, their save % over that time is actually 20th in the league. Not sure why anyone would want to focus on so much negatives when a young core like this has been executing at a top 15 NHL level for most of this season. 

 

to each his own i guess. And if Johnson keeps playing like this, yes the Flames will have cup level goaltending. What do the Oilers have, Cam Talbot?

 

 

[The_People1]

10 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I just personally think this is irrelevant, because the truth is you need it all.  You need great goaltending, great defence, a great middle, and quite honestly, you need great wingers if you want to win the cup.  There's very little point in arguing about our favorite positions (hope that didn't come out wrong).

 

I do think it's relevant because it's a timing issue.  D simply take longer to develop so you'd like to have them established before you bring in the forwards.

 

Case in point, the Blackhawks were a bad team for a very long time until they finally decided to go D in the draft.  The year they drafted Duncan Keith, they also took Anton Babchuk first round and James Wisniewski later.  The next year they drafted Seabrook, Byfuglien, and 3 other D.  Then they followed that up with Cam Barker 3rd overall and Hjarmarsson the two years after.  

 

It was only after all those guys the Hawks drafted Toews and Kane and they never looked back after that.

[Carty]

12 hours ago, The_People1 said:

I think Johnson is a keeper.

 

      

[cross16]

10 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

If we drafted all D then where does the #1 Center come from?  They would come now.  Near the end of a 5 year rebuild.  Ya we would suck.  Hardcore.  It would be lotto odds for Nolan Patrick this year most definitely.

 

 

And what if you don't get Nolan Patrick? Statistically speaking you are more likely to not get him then you will so what's the plan B? continue to suck until the next big center prospect comes along?

 

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

The debate is:  Do you build for the long run, or address short term needs?   Which, at that time, was Center?    

 

 

Center is never a short term need it is always a long term need because you always need good centers and you need to keep a pipeline of good centers around because the cap will prevent you from hoarding center talent. They just simply are starting to get paid way too much. The Flames drafting centers was never about a short term need it was a long term need. 

[JTech780]

5 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

There is so much rhetoric regarding the kids it's impossible to wade through it all. I found Puljijarvi's hype surprising when matched with a Finnish GM being pretty outspoken in not being high on him, and most of his scoring last year was on the PP.

I think in a lot of instances the rankings coming into their draft season are likely more accurate before the hype machine gets in gear. It's amazing how size is so over-played, such as Dubois and the Ritchie's etc.

Unfortunately, I had the pleasure of seeing what they did to Chychrun, a player I saw a lot of in our community and hanging out with the kids' practices during the week.

I was pretty sure he'd make the NHL this year, and the constant attacks were based on him constantly playing all of the tough minutes ahead of everyone else in jr and tourneys. It never flattered his stats, but it was completely overlooked by far too many.

I was pretty much welling up for the guy until ARI took him. There isn't a player alive you can't pull 6 minutes of mistakes from, I don't know why Chychrun's were sensationalized to the point you rank Juolevi as a better dman, glad Van did though. I'd take Fabbro over Juolevi, personally.

 

Back to goaltending, I haven't watched him (just got Android) but Rittich sure is putting up numbers that suggest maybe he's above the AHL??

 

With Rittich it is tough to say what we have in him, 13 games is such a small sample size. When I watched him in the pre season, you could see the athleticism, but he was all over the place in the net, you could see the potential. I haven't seen him play in Stockton, so I can't speak to where he is at.

[Carty]

16 hours ago, The_People1 said:

I think Johnson is a keeper.

 

As in goaltender...

 

4 hours ago, Carty said:

 

      

 

      

[The_People1]

10 minutes ago, Carty said:

 

As in goaltender...

 

 

      

 

 

[conundrumed]

7 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

That looks eerily similar to the KFC recipe...

[The_People1]

5 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

That looks eerily similar to the KFC recipe...

 

That also looks like the blueprint to the perfect rebuild but I've only tried it once...

[travel_dude]

12 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

That looks eerily similar to the KFC recipe...

 

Actually the recipe for KFC is:

 

1) salt

2) pepper

3) droppings from chicken conveyor belt

4) mysterious substance found next to CEO's desk

5) MSG

6) red dye #1

7) marker molecules

8) yellow dye #3

9) solvent #1

10) solvent #2

11) contents from envelope market "11 different herbs and spices"

 

Combine in a big pot and scoop out approximately 100 grams.  Place content in envelope marked "11 different herbs and spices". 

[Carty]

42 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

That also looks like the blueprint to the perfect rebuild but I've only tried it once...

 

The nucks have been trying to use that formula for a rebuild...   For 46 years...   So far...

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

That looks eerily similar to the KFC recipe...

 

 

...And as a part time job in this tough economy, Chad Johnson also saves lives.

[Kulstad]

I moved all the woulda-shoulda-coulda non-goaltender talk to the The Rebuild Over thread.  Please at least try to keep it on topic, folks.