Johnny 'Hockey' Gaudreau

[kehatch]

I agree with this. All the power to him is he makes it but I have more than enough doubts that I wouldn't hesitate at all to move him and get an asset in return. Obviously the value has to match but for the right return I'd move him in a second and would love to try and package him to get a younger dman or some wing help.

 

There are doubts of every prospect making the NHL.  I don't think Gaudreau is any more of a long shot then Poirier or Klimchuk and I don't see us trading them just because they might not make it.  

 

I don't think you are going to get the type of return that makes it worth trading Gaudreau.  There isn't any point in trading for a pick or another prospect. That is just exchanging lottery tickets.  There isn't any point in trading him for a roster player.  We need prospects more.  I was okay with moving him for a guy like Seguin, but those types of players aren't normally available.  

 

I really really like what I have seen from Gaudreau.  I haven't seen hands or creativity like his on many players.  If he can translate his game to the NHL he could be an elite player.  You can't say that with any degree of reliability about many of our prospects.  We can't afford to trade that away just because there is a chance he won't make the show.  

[Carty]

I don't think you are going to get the type of return that makes it worth trading Gaudreau.  There isn't any point in trading for a pick or another prospect. That is just exchanging lottery tickets.  There isn't any point in trading him for a roster player.  We need prospects more.  I was okay with moving him for a guy like Seguin, but those types of players aren't normally available.  

 

That's the way I look at it as well...   Unless the player coming back for Gaudreau (plus eg: pick, etc) was of a similar caliber as Seguin, there is no point in trading him away...

[cross16]

There are doubts of every prospect making the NHL.  I don't think Gaudreau is any more of a long shot then Poirier or Klimchuk and I don't see us trading them just because they might not make it.  

 

I don't think you are going to get the type of return that makes it worth trading Gaudreau.  There isn't any point in trading for a pick or another prospect. That is just exchanging lottery tickets.  There isn't any point in trading him for a roster player.  We need prospects more.  I was okay with moving him for a guy like Seguin, but those types of players aren't normally available.  

 

I really really like what I have seen from Gaudreau.  I haven't seen hands or creativity like his on many players.  If he can translate his game to the NHL he could be an elite player.  You can't say that with any degree of reliability about many of our prospects.  We can't afford to trade that away just because there is a chance he won't make the show.  

Sure, but when you are 5'7 or 5'8 and are working just to pass 175 lbs your risk level is much greater so I don't agree he is not more of a long shot. If the roster player was under 25 I'd do it, I'm not saying trade him for someone that only helps now.

[kehatch]

Sure, but when you are 5'7 or 5'8 and are working just to pass 175 lbs your risk level is much greater so I don't agree he is not more of a long shot. If the roster player was under 25 I'd do it, I'm not saying trade him for someone that only helps now.

 

Gaudreau only looks small when he is standing still.  I haven't seen his size impact him once after the puck dropped.  He has exceeded every expectation in the NCAA and he just finished his sophmore season.  He was dynamite in the WJC.  He has been exceptional every time he has been on the ice for the Flames.  What else does this guy need to do to solidify him as a prospect?  

 

I get that he is small.  But there needs to be an and to go with that.  He is small and .... he struggles in the corner.  He is small and ... he shies away from contact.  He is small and ... he can be pushed off the puck.  The thing is there is no and.  He is small but you can't tell he is small when he plays.  

 

Gaudreau joins Baertschi and Monahan as being the Flames only AAA prospects.  In fact I would say Gaudreau may have the highest ceiling of all of our prospects.  He could be NHL ready as early as the end of this season.  It would be an exceptionally poor decision to trade that away because he is small and there is a chance he won't transition his game.  The same way it would be exceptionally poor decision to trade away Monahan because the track record of 6-overall picks isn't very good.  

 

Not unless you are getting something exceptional back in return.  And I doubt you are going to get that back.  

 

Besides, what is the rush?  We know he can play NCAA hockey.  I don't think anyone is expecting him not to play well in Boston this season.  I am confident that he can play at the AHL level.  Even guys like Byron and Gerbe produced there.  This guys value isn't going to disappear over night.  In fact it will probably increase once his ELC is signed and he isn't a flight risk.  

 

In fact after the public show of support to and from Gaudreau what would it say about the Flames if they just traded him now.  What does it tell the other prospects?  Don't be too successful because once you have value your getting moved?  Moving him just doesn't make any sense by any angle IMO.  

[s4xon]

Gerbe is also said to be 5'5" (some say 5'6") which is still at this moment 2-3 inches shorter that Gaudreau stands at this moment.  However, Gerbe is built like Cundari.  He's a little wrecking ball. 

 

That is something Gaudreau is going to have to add on, and another year with BC will help with that.

[robrob1974]

Sure, but when you are 5'7 or 5'8 and are working just to pass 175 lbs your risk level is much greater so I don't agree he is not more of a long shot. If the roster player was under 25 I'd do it, I'm not saying trade him for someone that only helps now.

 

How about that Gallagher kid in Montreal? How big is he?

[geos]

Gaudreau only looks small when he is standing still.  I haven't seen his size impact him once after the puck dropped.  He has exceeded every expectation in the NCAA and he just finished his sophmore season.  He was dynamite in the WJC.  He has been exceptional every time he has been on the ice for the Flames.  What else does this guy need to do to solidify him as a prospect?  

 

Playing big in the NCAA is nothing compared to the NHL. He has a huge jump to make. And there is the risk he doesn't want to be in Calgary either. He can really sign wherever he wants. That's something that can't be ignored. The loophole makes him only our prospect in that he comes to our camps. He can play for whatever team he wants to play for. Why do you think he's not commiting to the NHL? He wants that flexibility. Maybe he comes here. But he doesn't have to. He really has no obligation to the Flames.

 

 

How about that Gallagher kid in Montreal? How big is he?

 

5'9", 180lbs. Bigger than Gaudreau and still is a size liability.

[robrob1974]

Playing big in the NCAA is nothing compared to the NHL. He has a huge jump to make. And there is the risk he doesn't want to be in Calgary either. He can really sign wherever he wants. That's something that can't be ignored. The loophole makes him only our prospect in that he comes to our camps. He can play for whatever team he wants to play for. Why do you think he's not commiting to the NHL? He wants that flexibility. Maybe he comes here. But he doesn't have to. He really has no obligation to the Flames.

 

 

 

5'9", 180lbs. Bigger than Gaudreau and still is a size liability.

 

That's your opinion, but Montreal seems to be quite happy with him. 

I am sure we can add an extra inch to Gaudreau's body stats too on our website to make him look bigger as well. 

[DirtyDeeds]

I'll post this article here because this is where I see all the "he is a flight risk" comments.

Article linked  ^ ^ ^ click it ^ ^ ^

 

This article is boring(you have been warned so don't come back here complaining it was a long & boring read). 

 

It goes into some depth on why college hockey players are now less likely to become flight risks.

It also explains the differences between the now and back when Justin Schultz actually used the loophole to do exactly that.

 

After reading this article, well most of it, I don't have the same big concerns that Johnny Hockey will decide to look elsewhere after he is done his college time.

[s4xon]

I'll post this article here because this is where I see all the "he is a flight risk" comments.

Article linked  ^ ^ ^ click it ^ ^ ^

 

This article is boring(you have been warned so don't come back here complaining it was a long & boring read). 

 

It goes into some depth on why college hockey players are now less likely to become flight risks.

It also explains the differences between the now and back when Justin Schultz actually used the loophole to do exactly that.

 

After reading this article, well most of it, I don't have the same big concerns that Johnny Hockey will decide to look elsewhere after he is done his college time.

 

I think most people refer to the act of a prospect leaving their respective drafting club for a preferred destination as "Schultzing" because not only is it fitting, it's convenient. 

 

Even if Gaudreau were to do this, he'd have to wait until August of that year.  Hence the reason I wrote the last line in the first poll as it stands.  At least teams have a chance of salvaging their prospect via trade until August, not July 1st.

[kehatch]

Playing big in the NCAA is nothing compared to the NHL. He has a huge jump to make. And there is the risk he doesn't want to be in Calgary either. He can really sign wherever he wants. That's something that can't be ignored. The loophole makes him only our prospect in that he comes to our camps. He can play for whatever team he wants to play for. Why do you think he's not commiting to the NHL? He wants that flexibility. Maybe he comes here. But he doesn't have to. He really has no obligation to the Flames.

 

There is a big jump from every development league to the NHL.  Every prospect is a risk.  So far Gaudreau hasn't shown any sign that his game won't transition.  Your basically saying that any small player with trade value should be traded.  It is a generic comment.  

 

As for him not signing, it isn't an issue yet.  So far he is talking about signing a contract at the end of this season or in the summer.  Again you are making a generic comment about college players despite evidence suggesting it won't be a problem in this case.  

 

No prospect is a sure thing.  We aren't trading every prospect because they aren't a sure thing.  You want as many prospects with high ceilings in hopes that at least some of them turn out.  Gaudreau represents another bullet in the gun.  One of our few.  

 

There is to much doom and gloom about a player that Flames fans should be excited about.  And it all boils down to him being a small college player.  Nobody has anything bad to say about the specific player or his game. Your dealing in generic stereotypes.   

[conundrumed]

Gotta go with kehatch, what is it you guys are actually alluding to? He's at his peak and this is going to be the height of interest in him??

I don't really get the argument.

So we have this prospect that had a great WJC and earned a Hobey Baker nomination for his NCAA hockey. How long ago?

Oh just last season? Oh wow, what a good prospect to have.

You want to do what with him? Why?

Size? But he's obviously overcoming that with great success.

League? WJC isn't a league.

Like I said, I don't know what you guys are alluding to, but I know this.

I'm sick and tired of no prospects, no picks, no future.

I'm so sick of it, that I'm not going to start knee-jerking on the few better prospects we have.

Small forwards do succeed in this league, get over it.

They typically do it with a higher grade of hand-eye and speed.

We have a prospect here that has elevated on the stages he's had at his disposal.

Why in god's name, would we, of all teams' fans, want to start gambling a bonafide prospect away?

[jjgallow]

It is true, he may be our best prospect.   Obviously too early to judge, but it's likely either him, Beartschi, or Monahan, with Janko having an outside chance.

 

If he lives up to superstar status and he stays here, I'm all for it.   We would have to bulk up around him, but that's very doable.

 

People have two concerns.  

 

1.  Some feel his development camp was not as strong as expected

 

2.  After 4 years in College, he has the option of signing with any NHL team he wants.

 

I don't take the size arguement seriously.   I might have at 5'6.  But if he's really 5'8, or 5'9, as suggested by more recent measurements, then all it means is that it May take him longer to develop.  For his role (first line), size will not stop him.

 

I do, however, share concerns with others on the first two points.  He's yet to prove he's a star, so he's a risk, like every other prospect.  

 

In the case of Baertschi, if he does not develop into a first-liner (I think he will), he can still be a successful NHLer on the 2nd, or even 3rd line.  Gaudreau, at his size, cannot be successful on anything but the first line IMHO.   That does not mean his size impedes him on the first line.  I think it makes little or no difference.  But if he can't reach that level, his value on lower lines is minimal.  So, he is a project.

 

A project which we may not have the rights to upon completion.

[s4xon]

1.  Some feel his development camp was not as strong as expected

 

2.  After 4 years in College, he has the option of signing with any NHL team he wants.

 

1.  What more could they want from the kid?  3 points with a 6 combined between him and Monahan in one scrimmage.  He was the best player in the camp hands down.  He even outshined Baertschi (whom I think needed to pull up his socks and play like he meant it).

 

2. He doesn't have the option of signing with any team.  He has to wait till August of that year, and many a deal can be made in 2 months if Johnny goes down that path.

Gaudreau, at his size, cannot be successful on anything but the first line IMHO.  

 

What makes you think he can't be successful on the 2nd line?

[jjgallow]

1.  What more could they want from the kid?  3 points with a 6 combined between him and Monahan in one scrimmage.  He was the best player in the camp hands down.  He even outshined Baertschi (whom I think needed to pull up his socks and play like he meant it).

 

Perhaps to do better than Monahan, who is over a year younger and projected for the 2nd line.  There really wasn't anyone else at the camp to compare him to, other than Beartschi, who basically already has a roster spot and clearly has the least to prove of the three at this point.   By "the entire camp"...it's really just these three.

 

I'm not taking sides, I'm just stating a fact that some people were not impressed.

 

2. He doesn't have the option of signing with any team.  He has to wait till August of that year, and many a deal can be made in 2 months if Johnny goes down that path.

 

You first sentence contradicts your 2nd sentence.  Of course he'll have that option if he so chooses.   If he doesn't sign here, it will be clear to every team that he wants to be a free agent, and he will have little or no trade value.   

 

I am simply stating a fact and not looking to argue about it.  It is technically a very real possibility.  And not a debate I'm interested in.

 

What makes you think he can't be successful on the 2nd line?

 

Isn't it a little early to be getting emotional about this?  I stated my reason for this in my message.   I'm not looking for an arguement, but you're free to state your opinion.   Or, you can just comment on every else's I suppose.

[travel_dude]

It is true, he may be our best prospect.   Obviously too early to judge, but it's likely either him, Beartschi, or Monahan, with Janko having an outside chance.

 

If he lives up to superstar status and he stays here, I'm all for it.   We would have to bulk up around him, but that's very doable.

 

People have two concerns.  

 

1.  Some feel his development camp was not as strong as expected

 

2.  After 4 years in College, he has the option of signing with any NHL team he wants.

 

I don't take the size arguement seriously.   I might have at 5'6.  But if he's really 5'8, or 5'9, as suggested by more recent measurements, then all it means is that it May take him longer to develop.  For his role (first line), size will not stop him.

 

I do, however, share concerns with others on the first two points.  He's yet to prove he's a star, so he's a risk, like every other prospect.  

 

In the case of Baertschi, if he does not develop into a first-liner (I think he will), he can still be a successful NHLer on the 2nd, or even 3rd line.  Gaudreau, at his size, cannot be successful on anything but the first line IMHO.   That does not mean his size impedes him on the first line.  I think it makes little or no difference.  But if he can't reach that level, his value on lower lines is minimal.  So, he is a project.

 

A project which we may not have the rights to upon completion.

 

From what I have heard and read about JH is that he wants to play this year with his brother, bulk up, and get ready to play in the NHL for the Flames.  There isn't a whole lot of reasons for him to play his senior year in the NCAA.  It prevents him from receiving any money from a team.  He also risks being injured before he makes any money.  I am sure he is itching to sign a deal. 

 

To your other point - he is a prospect, not a project.  Tim Harrison and Janko are projects.  Kanzig is a project.

[kehatch]

Perhaps to do better than Monahan, who is over a year younger and projected for the 2nd line.  There really wasn't anyone else at the camp to compare him to, other than Beartschi, who basically already has a roster spot and clearly has the least to prove of the three at this point.   By "the entire camp"...it's really just these three.

 

I'm not taking sides, I'm just stating a fact that some people were not impressed.

 

Which people?  I didn't hear that from anyone.  Every article I read, every message board post I viewed, and every person I spoke with was unbelievably impressed with Gaudreau at development camp.  

[jjgallow]

From what I have heard and read about JH is that he wants to play this year with his brother, bulk up, and get ready to play in the NHL for the Flames.  There isn't a whole lot of reasons for him to play his senior year in the NCAA.  It prevents him from receiving any money from a team.  He also risks being injured before he makes any money.  I am sure he is itching to sign a deal. 

 

To your other point - he is a prospect, not a project.  Tim Harrison and Janko are projects.  Kanzig is a project.

 

I'm not saying it's a bad thing.   Tim Harrison and Janko are projects at the minor league level, yes.

 

Let me put it this way:  At the NHL level, was Martin St. Louis a project?

[cross16]

Gaudreau only looks small when he is standing still.  I haven't seen his size impact him once after the puck dropped.  He has exceeded every expectation in the NCAA and he just finished his sophmore season.  He was dynamite in the WJC.  He has been exceptional every time he has been on the ice for the Flames.  What else does this guy need to do to solidify him as a prospect?  

 

I get that he is small.  But there needs to be an and to go with that.  He is small and .... he struggles in the corner.  He is small and ... he shies away from contact.  He is small and ... he can be pushed off the puck.  The thing is there is no and.  He is small but you can't tell he is small when he plays.  

 

Gaudreau joins Baertschi and Monahan as being the Flames only AAA prospects.  In fact I would say Gaudreau may have the highest ceiling of all of our prospects.  He could be NHL ready as early as the end of this season.  It would be an exceptionally poor decision to trade that away because he is small and there is a chance he won't transition his game.  The same way it would be exceptionally poor decision to trade away Monahan because the track record of 6-overall picks isn't very good.  

 

Not unless you are getting something exceptional back in return.  And I doubt you are going to get that back.  

 

Besides, what is the rush?  We know he can play NCAA hockey.  I don't think anyone is expecting him not to play well in Boston this season.  I am confident that he can play at the AHL level.  Even guys like Byron and Gerbe produced there.  This guys value isn't going to disappear over night.  In fact it will probably increase once his ELC is signed and he isn't a flight risk.  

 

In fact after the public show of support to and from Gaudreau what would it say about the Flames if they just traded him now.  What does it tell the other prospects?  Don't be too successful because once you have value your getting moved?  Moving him just doesn't make any sense by any angle IMO.  

I don't agree you can't tell he is small when he plays. He plays a small mans game he shies us away from contact and keeps himself in open ice away from having to battle for the puck. Sure he was great in the world juniors but the one game I thought he played pretty poorly in was against Canada who interesting enough will played the most NHL style game of the tournament. In that game I thought he was tentative from the get go and was far less effective. Now that doesn't mean I think he will always be that but to say he doesn't look small on the ice isn't accurate IMO. I'm not saying size equals automatically failure in the NHL but I think it exponentially increases the risk unless you are strong as a bulk and to date Gaudrea isn't there YET. Whether or not he can be is the big question mark for me and I can't say whether he will or won't.

On trading him again I want to make it clear I'm only advocating it if the return is worth it to the flames I'm not advocating it because I thin he is small. If Gaudrea was 6 ft and 190 plus and had his skill he would be untouchable as a prospect but because of his size and risk factor, in my mind, it makes him worth thinking about trading but the value has to be there.

[jjgallow]

I don't agree you can't tell he is small when he plays. He plays a small mans game he shies us away from contact and keeps himself in open ice away from having to battle for the puck. Sure he was great in the world juniors but the one game I thought he played pretty poorly in was against Canada who interesting enough will played the most NHL style game of the tournament. In that game I thought he was tentative from the get go and was far less effective. Now that doesn't mean I think he will always be that but to say he doesn't look small on the ice isn't accurate IMO. I'm not saying size equals automatically failure in the NHL but I think it exponentially increases the risk unless you are strong as a bulk and to date Gaudrea isn't there YET. Whether or not he can be is the big question mark for me and I can't say whether he will or won't.

On trading him again I want to make it clear I'm only advocating it if the return is worth it to the flames I'm not advocating it because I thin he is small. If Gaudrea was 6 ft and 190 plus and had his skill he would be untouchable as a prospect but because of his size and risk factor, in my mind, it makes him worth thinking about trading but the value has to be there.

 

I actually agree with cross on this.  My reasons are more focused on his college status than his size, but both are factors.

 

I would disagree that he was a bad draft choice.  I think Gaudreau was a fantastic pick, as are many smaller players.  In my mind, they are of value and that value is often overlooked, so the acquisition makes sense.  But, I believe in the dreaded "BPA", and I completely separate the acquisition from what's the best fit for the organization.

 

Now we have this asset, which we may lose in two years.  

 

Personally, I think Gaudreau is worth the risk.  But if another team is willing to remove that risk for us and give us significant value in return, then so be it.

 

My definition of significant value:  A trade where we either get the better prospect, or we get a first-round draft pick (preferably 2015).

 

In other words, it would probably be a package deal.   I have had enough of watching us trade one elite player for several mediocre players.   It is our turn to offer several players or prospects and get one good one (or one really good pick) back.

 

If that doesn't happen, I very much think it is worth taking the risk and developing him into a star with the Flames

[s4xon]

Perhaps to do better than Monahan, who is over a year younger and projected for the 2nd line.  There really wasn't anyone else at the camp to compare him to, other than Beartschi, who basically already has a roster spot and clearly has the least to prove of the three at this point.   By "the entire camp"...it's really just these three.

 

I'm not taking sides, I'm just stating a fact that some people were not impressed.

 

 

You first sentence contradicts your 2nd sentence.  Of course he'll have that option if he so chooses.   If he doesn't sign here, it will be clear to every team that he wants to be a free agent, and he will have little or no trade value.   

 

I am simply stating a fact and not looking to argue about it.  It is technically a very real possibility.  And not a debate I'm interested in.

 

 

Isn't it a little early to be getting emotional about this?  I stated my reason for this in my message.   I'm not looking for an arguement, but you're free to state your opinion.   Or, you can just comment on every else's I suppose.

 

1.  I haven't heard one person say they weren't impressed with Gaudreau.  Not one single person.  Thinking the whole camp constitutes 3 AAA prospects and no one else is pure nonsense.

 

2.  No contradiction.  JG won't have the Schultz option propping himself and his agent in a 5 star hotel room and waiting while 20 teams beg him to join their club one by one.  In essence he won't be a free agent, not until August, therefore he isn't able to "choose" his team.  All the power is in Feaster's hands until then, I know Feaster won't let a 20 year old kid make the Flames take a total loss.

 

3.  Why does every reasonable argument that comes your way that you won't answer have to be considered emotion?  There's no reason why JG can't play on the 2nd line.  "First line or no success" doesn't make sense.

[jjgallow]

1.  I haven't heard one person say they weren't impressed with Gaudreau.  Not one single person.  Thinking the whole camp constitutes 3 AAA prospects and no one else is pure nonsense.

 

Sorry, I was under the impression that cross was a person.  Now I know the truth.

 

 

 

 

2.  No contradiction. 

 

No contradiction...until August?    um....

 

3.  Why does every reasonable argument that comes your way that you won't answer have to be considered emotion?  There's no reason why JG can't play on the 2nd line.  "First line or no success" doesn't make sense.

 

Now that I know there are cybernetic organisms on here, I won't presume it's emotion.  My apologies.

[cross16]

Well JJ I never said I was not impressed with Gaudrea with at camp. I thought he had a fine camp but I just personally don't put that much stock into it. I trust that Gaudrea is going to have a good camp because he is the type of player who will shine at these things and I know h has the skill. My concerns are his size, strength and desire and those are all things that are going to take time to see and develop so for me it's not relevant if he has a good camp or not at this point.

[jjgallow]

The only reason I'm calling you out on this one is because I kind of agree with you lol...

 

He improved as the camp when on (from when you posted this), so maybe it's out of context now.  

 

I would say that I'm impressed, sort of.  But not enough that I would expect the Flames would be justified to pull him out of college and give him a contract.  That's okay, as long as it happens next offseason.   Anything further than that, and it gets scary.

 

http://fans.flames.nhl.com/community/topic/19563-2013-development-camp-roster-notes/page-3#entry621372

 

Little disappointed in Gaudrea to be honest. I would have like to see him be a little more involved.
 

[cross16]

The only reason I'm calling you out on this one is because I kind of agree with you lol...

 

He improved as the camp when on (from when you posted this), so maybe it's out of context now.  

 

I would say that I'm impressed, sort of.  But not enough that I would expect the Flames would be justified to pull him out of college and give him a contract.  That's okay, as long as it happens next offseason.   Anything further than that, and it gets scary.

 

http://fans.flames.nhl.com/community/topic/19563-2013-development-camp-roster-notes/page-3#entry621372

Ya one game does not make his whole camp. That comment was specific to that game where I didn't walk away overly impressed but I thought camp overal for him was not poor.