Realistic (and unrealistic) Trades - 2024 Edition

[conundrumed]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

To be fair, he did. 

 

He is a Flames fan, or at least a follower of the Flames. 

 

 

Fair enough. 2 years of dogpiling makes me a little defensive. Seemed lowbrow to hop in the wayback machine and pull Kanzig out of the dumpster.

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

His math isn't just bad, it's bad bad.

It's badder?

[jjgallow]

Just now, conundrumed said:

Fair enough. 2 years of dogpiling makes me a little defensive. Seemed lowbrow to hop in the wayback machine and pull Kanzig out of the dumpster.

 

I beat the Kanzig thing to death, but...like...that got boring for even me a long time ago.   It was one of our most notoriously bad picks.   But it's also from 1000 years ago, totally different management, totally different evaluations, and nothing to do with the 2nd round which was the subject of his tweet.

 

It is incomprehensible to compare Grushnikov to Kanzig.   Even for pure trolling purposes it's really out there.

[jjgallow]

2 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

It's badder?

 

Sorry, my bad.

 

Let me correct that.    It's the bad as job I know he can do.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

I beat the Kanzig thing to death, but...like...that got boring for even me a long time ago.   It was one of our most notoriously bad picks.   But it's also from 1000 years ago, totally different management, totally different evaluations, and nothing to do with the 2nd round which was the subject of his tweet.

 

It is incomprehensible to compare Grushnikov to Kanzig.   Even for pure trolling purposes it's really out there.

 

It's more appropriate to compare Stromgren to Stanky, but even that is a bit flawed.  A high flying F that got opportunity to play in the NHL vs a guy adjusting to NA.  And was not the offense first kind.  

[cross16]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

that tweet is particularly flawed, but, then, it's twitter, so...

 

nothing new there.

 

the lesson to be learned here is that not a lot of math geniuses have time to post trash on twitter.   

 

"6% of mid-2nd rounders make the NHL"?   false in all ways.  not even close.

 

"they always end up in a bottom-pairing role"    total garbage

 

 

His math isn't just bad, it's bad bad.   Even for twitter.    But you have to visit twitter to be subjected to that kind of thing.

 

Fair to criticize but might want to understand what he is saying because no he did not say this. 

 

He is saying that players with the profile of Kanzig and Grushnikov only make the NHL 6% of the time and when they do it's always as a bottom pairing role. It's about the profile, not the draft spot. 

 

There is some hyperbole there sure but he isn't far off either. 

[jjgallow]

45 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Fair to criticize but might want to understand what he is saying because no he did not say this. 

 

He is saying that players with the profile of Kanzig and Grushnikov only make the NHL 6% of the time and when they do it's always as a bottom pairing role. It's about the profile, not the draft spot. 

 

There is some hyperbole there sure but he isn't far off either. 

 

it's possible that I misunderstood his point, yes.  

 

But in terms of what was said in the tweet, it ain't right.  "profile" wasn't a word in his tweet, none of his wording would lend reason to why Kanzig was brought up (who could barely skate at any evaluation age).   

 

For sure he probably "meant" to say something else, but what I read is all plain wrong.  Can easily verify that where he included the word "always".   Can stop right there and be sure he's wrong.    Especially when he's trying to argue the value of Tanev, an undrafted player who didn't fit that mold because he was worse than that mold at that age.

 

Make a list of the top defensive D in the game, easily half will be 2nd round or later, or totally undrafted.

A quick glance at any 2nd round old enough to have mature players shows he's way out to lunch.

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2018e.html

 

It just gets worse.  Even if we generously insert the word "profile" in for him, the idea of putting Kanzig and Grushnikov in the same profile just goes right back to wrong-land.

 

Not to mention that none of this has anything substantial to do with the trade, even.  I mean talking about that trade without mentioning Battalgia is insane.

[cross16]

26 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

it's possible that I misunderstood his point, yes.  

 

But in terms of what was said in the tweet, it ain't right.  "profile" wasn't a word in his tweet, none of his wording would lend reason to why Kanzig was brought up (who could barely skate at any evaluation age).   

 

For sure he probably "meant" to say something else, but what I read is all plain wrong.  Can easily verify that where he included the word "always".   Can stop right there and be sure he's wrong.    Especially when he's trying to argue the value of Tanev, an undrafted player who didn't fit that mold because he was worse than that mold at that age.

 

Make a list of the top defensive D in the game, easily half will be 2nd round or later, or totally undrafted.

A quick glance at any 2nd round old enough to have mature players shows he's way out to lunch.

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2018e.html

 

It just gets worse.  Even if we generously insert the word "profile" in for him, the idea of putting Kanzig and Grushnikov in the same profile just goes right back to wrong-land.

 

Not to mention that none of this has anything substantial to do with the trade, even.  I mean talking about that trade without mentioning Battalgia is insane.

 

Your very much missing his point. Doesn't make sense to me to put down people when you don't even understand their point but to each their own I guess. 

 

I agree his analysis of the trade is off and that's where guys like him get exposed sometimes by being too data focused. 

[tmac70]

Chatter out there are Flames may be interested in Kappo Kakko from NY, what's the cost, and would we be interested? 

 

Also just read not sure of the validity or merit behind it but Anderson to MTL? What would be the return, One would hope it is our own first ++ back 

[Otown72]

21 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

Chatter out there are Flames may be interested in Kappo Kakko from NY, what's the cost, and would we be interested? 

 

Also just read not sure of the validity or merit behind it but Anderson to MTL? What would be the return, One would hope it is our own first ++ back 

One of the pieces could be Dach?  His injury is concerning though. 

Getting our first back would be nice.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, tmac70 said:

Chatter out there are Flames may be interested in Kappo Kakko from NY, what's the cost, and would we be interested? 

 

Also just read not sure of the validity or merit behind it but Anderson to MTL? What would be the return, One would hope it is our own first ++ back 

 

The only chatter I heard about Ras was that a few teams were calling but same chatter suggested ut would need to be a showstopper return.  Getting back a 1st is fine, but we are likely only giving up the FLA pick this year, so the pick is not our pick.  And if it was MTL's own, they would try to protect it.  Sorry.

 

Kappo has been on the move since before TDL.  I don't know he's any more than a middle 6.  DO we have enough of them?  I didn't really notice him in the few games of playoffs I saw.

[The_People1]

31 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The only chatter I heard about Ras was that a few teams were calling but same chatter suggested ut would need to be a showstopper return.  Getting back a 1st is fine, but we are likely only giving up the FLA pick this year, so the pick is not our pick.  And if it was MTL's own, they would try to protect it.  Sorry.

 

Kappo has been on the move since before TDL.  I don't know he's any more than a middle 6.  DO we have enough of them?  I didn't really notice him in the few games of playoffs I saw.

 

Kappo's trade value should be something like Puljujarvi's value when the Oilers finally gave up.  Forgot who Puljujarvi was traded for?  Ya exactly.  A fringe prospect who never made it so saves you the time to even check.

 

I'm thinking Solovyov or Kuznetsov for Kappo should get it done.  

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Kappo's trade value should be something like Puljujarvi's value when the Oilers finally gave up.  Forgot who Puljujarvi was traded for?  Ya exactly.  A fringe prospect who never made it so saves you the time to even check.

 

I'm thinking Solovyov or Kuznetsov for Kappo should get it done.  

 

I thought it was Foegele.  The actual player they got is even less known.  Like who?

Bear was traded for Foegele.

And EDM was glowing about the player, until they decided they couldn't sign him.

 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, tmac70 said:

Chatter out there are Flames may be interested in Kappo Kakko from NY, what's the cost, and would we be interested? 

 

Also just read not sure of the validity or merit behind it but Anderson to MTL? What would be the return, One would hope it is our own first ++ back 

 

I doubt they would, it would make a huge hole, but maybe Weegar or Andersson for Kappo? I'd prefer Andersson. Would Kadri do it? Some here seem to think Kappo's stock is low. Thought I heard NyR want at least a first?
 

We would need to re-sign Kylington or get another D.

 

I thought a NYR might need a replacement for Trouba.

 

edit:

 

I just looked at his point totals, ya he's only got 19 in 61 games. That is low. I can see why some say Pujujarvi...

I dunno, I'd trade them Pelletier for him. I'm a bit worried Pelletier is trending down.

 

 

[420since1974]

You may be right about Pelletier, but I'm not ready to give up on him yet.

We really didn't get a large enough sample size of his game after recovering from surgery.

[travel_dude]

10 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I doubt they would, it would make a huge hole, but maybe Weegar or Andersson for Kappo? I'd prefer Andersson. Would Kadri do it? Some here seem to think Kappo's stock is low. Thought I heard NyR want at least a first?
 

We would need to re-sign Kylington or get another D.

 

I thought a NYR might need a replacement for Trouba.

 

edit:

 

I just looked at his point totals, ya he's only got 19 in 61 games. That is low. I can see why some say Pujujarvi...

I dunno, I'd trade them Pelletier for him. I'm a bit worried Pelletier is trending down.

 

 

 

IMHO, trading Weegar or Andersson for anything less than what we unloaded Lindholm for would be outright robbery.  I'm not hung up on Ras, but a cost controlled RHS RD is worth his weight in gold.  Especialily one that can score when he actually shoots but gets a lot of points in spite of himself.  Weegar was solid and got lots of points with barely any PP time on a PP that could barely get quality shots.

 

You won't see any of the D traded until their contract year, assuming we don't re-sign Ras before.  Kylington is still an option, and he may drop his price since teams are now looking for bargains.  We can still give him our last offer.  

 

I would be first looking at what cap teams are offering to tale a crap contract.  Or a player that had priced himself out of a team as a RFA.  Teams that get stuck with an arbitration award still can use a buyout, but that's not exactly good business.  And the player gets a term that doesn't help.  Make a decent offer for that player in trade.  Doubt the team gives up, but who knows.  And we are running out of pieces to trade.  Coronato + for Mercer or Necas might work.  I think Coronato has a decent ceiling, but I don't think he will be a game changer.  

 

[cberg]

12 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

IMHO, trading Weegar or Andersson for anything less than what we unloaded Lindholm for would be outright robbery.  I'm not hung up on Ras, but a cost controlled RHS RD is worth his weight in gold.  Especialily one that can score when he actually shoots but gets a lot of points in spite of himself.  Weegar was solid and got lots of points with barely any PP time on a PP that could barely get quality shots.

 

You won't see any of the D traded until their contract year, assuming we don't re-sign Ras before.  Kylington is still an option, and he may drop his price since teams are now looking for bargains.  We can still give him our last offer.  

 

I would be first looking at what cap teams are offering to tale a crap contract.  Or a player that had priced himself out of a team as a RFA.  Teams that get stuck with an arbitration award still can use a buyout, but that's not exactly good business.  And the player gets a term that doesn't help.  Make a decent offer for that player in trade.  Doubt the team gives up, but who knows.  And we are running out of pieces to trade.  Coronato + for Mercer or Necas might work.  I think Coronato has a decent ceiling, but I don't think he will be a game changer.  

 

Although I agree in principle with your trade ideas, I don't think there is any good reason or incentive for either Carolina, or especially NJD to move those players.  In order for a big trade to proceed there usually has to be win-win reasons for both sides.  After losing out on Guentzel Carolina now needs, and can afford Necas and Mercer is integral to NJD attack already.  

[travel_dude]

51 minutes ago, cberg said:

Although I agree in principle with your trade ideas, I don't think there is any good reason or incentive for either Carolina, or especially NJD to move those players.  In order for a big trade to proceed there usually has to be win-win reasons for both sides.  After losing out on Guentzel Carolina now needs, and can afford Necas and Mercer is integral to NJD attack already.  

 

Can afford, but they have 3 RFA's of which 2 have arbitration rights.  Necas is likely to get $5+ if not higher on a shortie.  Jarvis has no rights so they can bridge him.  Drury is not that good yet, but he will get something.  And they still need a 7th D.  They seem to be a little interested in trading Necas, since he's not being used as a C.  It might not be a cheap add, but it depends on how they view any prospect or roster player.  

 

With NJ, they have little cap space to sign Mercer long term.  They don't need to right now, but their long term cap has issues.  Odd that they signed any vets, but they look to want to go deep in the playoffs.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

I know his name has only come up a couple times but this kid seems to be making a reputation for himself even before hes stepped on the ice. My worry is this kid is good and the Oil like to collect red flags.

 

 

[travel_dude]

Ugg, I hate the lack of Capfriendly.  There are alternatives of course, but I hate change.  I am okay withh change on the team but the NHL and other sites suck for change management.  Here ya go is their motto.  

 

If I am the Flames, I am contacting teams close to the cap and seeing what they are offering.  Mantha and Bean are closer to being rebuild stewards than longer term meaningful players.  I don't mind the former and perhaps the latter gives us some options, but I think we need some middle term players that can help the kids now and maybe be the longer term vets to straddle the next wave.  Necas may be out of reach, but there are others a bit older that won't cost a ton.  Nothing in FA really works, other than Kylington.  I fear that pride and bad advice will close that door.

[phoenix66]

55 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

I know his name has only come up a couple times but this kid seems to be making a reputation for himself even before hes stepped on the ice. My worry is this kid is good and the Oil like to collect red flags.

 

 

I don't see how any team would ever agree to demands like these ..ice time etc ..

Truth is a team like the flames should appeal to him simply because all these jobs are open .

Agree to let him compete for the top line role.. play on pp1.. etc.. that's fine ..but if he doesn't cut it he's gonna get moved back.. no team or coach is gonna agree to keep rolling him out if he's ineffective 

[phoenix66]

11 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Ugg, I hate the lack of Capfriendly.  There are alternatives of course, but I hate change.  I am okay withh change on the team but the NHL and other sites suck for change management.  Here ya go is their motto.  

 

If I am the Flames, I am contacting teams close to the cap and seeing what they are offering.  Mantha and Bean are closer to being rebuild stewards than longer term meaningful players.  I don't mind the former and perhaps the latter gives us some options, but I think we need some middle term players that can help the kids now and maybe be the longer term vets to straddle the next wave.  Necas may be out of reach, but there are others a bit older that won't cost a ton.  Nothing in FA really works, other than Kylington.  I fear that pride and bad advice will close that door.

Personally I'd throw some $ at Shattenirk If he'd take a sorter term deal.. he'd be a good stabilizer , mentor and placeholder 

[cberg]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Can afford, but they have 3 RFA's of which 2 have arbitration rights.  Necas is likely to get $5+ if not higher on a shortie.  Jarvis has no rights so they can bridge him.  Drury is not that good yet, but he will get something.  And they still need a 7th D.  They seem to be a little interested in trading Necas, since he's not being used as a C.  It might not be a cheap add, but it depends on how they view any prospect or roster player.  

 

With NJ, they have little cap space to sign Mercer long term.  They don't need to right now, but their long term cap has issues.  Odd that they signed any vets, but they look to want to go deep in the playoffs.

Ok, we shall see, teams don’t need to be Cap-compliant till October so still a while to go.  I’m assuming all arbitration issues will be resolved soon.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

28 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I don't see how any team would ever agree to demands like these ..ice time etc ..

Truth is a team like the flames should appeal to him simply because all these jobs are open .

Agree to let him compete for the top line role.. play on pp1.. etc.. that's fine ..but if he doesn't cut it he's gonna get moved back.. no team or coach is gonna agree to keep rolling him out if he's ineffective 

Personally, regardless of talent keep that personality as far from the dressing room as possible.

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

IMHO, trading Weegar or Andersson for anything less than what we unloaded Lindholm for would be outright robbery.  I'm not hung up on Ras, but a cost controlled RHS RD is worth his weight in gold.  Especialily one that can score when he actually shoots but gets a lot of points in spite of himself.  Weegar was solid and got lots of points with barely any PP time on a PP that could barely get quality shots.

 

You won't see any of the D traded until their contract year, assuming we don't re-sign Ras before.  Kylington is still an option, and he may drop his price since teams are now looking for bargains.  We can still give him our last offer.  

 

I would be first looking at what cap teams are offering to tale a crap contract.  Or a player that had priced himself out of a team as a RFA.  Teams that get stuck with an arbitration award still can use a buyout, but that's not exactly good business.  And the player gets a term that doesn't help.  Make a decent offer for that player in trade.  Doubt the team gives up, but who knows.  And we are running out of pieces to trade.  Coronato + for Mercer or Necas might work.  I think Coronato has a decent ceiling, but I don't think he will be a game changer.  

 

ya, I was suggesting before I went to look at his career totals and then saw he really only has one decent year and then was like oh.., they have a point, so ya I want a lot as well. They're both unicorns in being near top pair RSD.