FLAMES @ Capitals - Monday 16 Oct 2023 - 5PM MDT

[jjgallow]

There is always hope 

 

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/remaking-a-tainted-image/article1074540/

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, tmac70 said:

Sutter bahahha yup its his fault. Strange how positions and personal change but the justification for the same results actions and excuses are acceptable. We have a roster of good complimentary players that all. 

 

Hey Tmac70, I was a little glib in my response to you.  You have a right to your opinion.  You see it a certain way, as do I.  It's early is what I was getting at, so I won't trash you for your opinion.  I do think you have had this opinion for a long time so I doubt you will change it until we are tops in the league.  Maybe not even then.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

you do realize I'm only behind you and People for the top posters on here advocating for a rebuild. While there are definitely others into it, I think we are the top three that have adamantly argued for it since you name when. I'd say since before the last one, as the where we got Monahan and co. It ended quite abruptly and wasn't planned properly. 
 

I want it, but came to a realization this team is like bashing all of our heads against a cement wall but we still come back for more.

 

I was all for trying different things when I felt keeping Monahan and Gaudreau together was shortsighted. Even if he didn't get injured, I felt it was. He's smart but limited by his wheels, Johnny was anchored down a step by Monny. 

 

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

Sutter was wrong coach for the job regardless of outcome. Sure

players felt it was coach, most of us can see the actual writing on the wall. It's an ill-composed team. We don't have the proper mix of abilities. We can put together one good top6 line and the rest are average overpaid bottom 6 players.

 

Well the 20/20 hindsight is fine, but we also had one of our best years with Johnny/Lindy/Matty.  That was with Backlund as our defult #2C.  Lots of career years there.  Coaching and (perhaps) a burnt out goalie killed us against the Oilers.  Whatevs.

 

A rebuild ends up looking like Young Guns 2.0 for a very long time.  And that's if they get every piece right.  You only get a handful of Bedards to show up in a decade.  And you get about 20 teams every year looking much like the Flames.  My beef is games that are not at all entertaining.  Like last year's complete schedule.  Sutter hockey.  Hockey that went out of date when the Kings last won.  He had some good ideas that would work for some teams.  Not many.

 

I'm not as down on the team makeup.  I don't like certain styles of play, but I think we just have to figure it out.  A rookie head coach.  New D system.  Still no Kylington, who would help move the puck.  We have to break the habits formed under a lousy coach and become a scoring teasm, not a perimeter shot team.  We lost in a shootout to a big skilled team with some spare parts.  Our shots were not perimeter, but I would like more traffic.  It's what guys like Kadri and Huberdeau can do.  Ruzicka played in the spot you score.  Dube tipped in a shot that comes close to 90% of the time from the point.  Where was that the rest of the game?  And those two are actually described as small or play small.  Kadri is a less fat version of Tkachuk.  He hasn't played a lot like that recently.  He should be drawing more penalties.  Huberdeau is too content to pass off, but he's playing with a leftie on RW.  Fine for one timers but not for acceoting stick to stick passes.

[Sarasti]

37 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

Well the 20/20 hindsight is fine, but we also had one of our best years with Johnny/Lindy/Matty.  That was with Backlund as our defult #2C.  Lots of career years there.  Coaching and (perhaps) a burnt out goalie killed us against the Oilers.  Whatevs.

 

A rebuild ends up looking like Young Guns 2.0 for a very long time.  And that's if they get every piece right.  You only get a handful of Bedards to show up in a decade.  And you get about 20 teams every year looking much like the Flames.  My beef is games that are not at all entertaining.  Like last year's complete schedule.  Sutter hockey.  Hockey that went out of date when the Kings last won.  He had some good ideas that would work for some teams.  Not many.

 

I'm not as down on the team makeup.  I don't like certain styles of play, but I think we just have to figure it out.  A rookie head coach.  New D system.  Still no Kylington, who would help move the puck.  We have to break the habits formed under a lousy coach and become a scoring teasm, not a perimeter shot team.  We lost in a shootout to a big skilled team with some spare parts.  Our shots were not perimeter, but I would like more traffic.  It's what guys like Kadri and Huberdeau can do.  Ruzicka played in the spot you score.  Dube tipped in a shot that comes close to 90% of the time from the point.  Where was that the rest of the game?  And those two are actually described as small or play small.  Kadri is a less fat version of Tkachuk.  He hasn't played a lot like that recently.  He should be drawing more penalties.  Huberdeau is too content to pass off, but he's playing with a leftie on RW.  Fine for one timers but not for acceoting stick to stick passes.

 

The thing to remember with those Kings teams as well is they likely would not have won if Quick wasn't playing otherworldly.

Sutter hockey RELIES on stellar goaltending when it comes down to it.

 

 

As for your second point I would like to see them try Coronato with Huby for the reasons you outlined

[jjgallow]

20 minutes ago, Sarasti said:

 

The thing to remember with those Kings teams as well is they likely would not have won if Quick wasn't playing otherworldly.

Sutter hockey RELIES on stellar goaltending when it comes down to it.

 

 

As for your second point I would like to see them try Coronato with Huby for the reasons you outlined

 

They had a defenseman or two as well.

 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

Well the 20/20 hindsight is fine, but we also had one of our best years with Johnny/Lindy/Matty.  That was with Backlund as our defult #2C.  Lots of career years there.  Coaching and (perhaps) a burnt out goalie killed us against the Oilers.  Whatevs.

 

A rebuild ends up looking like Young Guns 2.0 for a very long time.  And that's if they get every piece right.  You only get a handful of Bedards to show up in a decade.  And you get about 20 teams every year looking much like the Flames.  My beef is games that are not at all entertaining.  Like last year's complete schedule.  Sutter hockey.  Hockey that went out of date when the Kings last won.  He had some good ideas that would work for some teams.  Not many.

 

I'm not as down on the team makeup.  I don't like certain styles of play, but I think we just have to figure it out.  A rookie head coach.  New D system.  Still no Kylington, who would help move the puck.  We have to break the habits formed under a lousy coach and become a scoring teasm, not a perimeter shot team.  We lost in a shootout to a big skilled team with some spare parts.  Our shots were not perimeter, but I would like more traffic.  It's what guys like Kadri and Huberdeau can do.  Ruzicka played in the spot you score.  Dube tipped in a shot that comes close to 90% of the time from the point.  Where was that the rest of the game?  And those two are actually described as small or play small.  Kadri is a less fat version of Tkachuk.  He hasn't played a lot like that recently.  He should be drawing more penalties.  Huberdeau is too content to pass off, but he's playing with a leftie on RW.  Fine for one timers but not for acceoting stick to stick passes.

I never felt that career year meant we were a contender. Never 

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Hey Tmac70, I was a little glib in my response to you.  You have a right to your opinion.  You see it a certain way, as do I.  It's early is what I was getting at, so I won't trash you for your opinion.  I do think you have had this opinion for a long time so I doubt you will change it until we are tops in the league.  Maybe not even then.

 

it is early.   I don't want to fully unload lol.   I actually still think they have a  honeymoon run ahead of them.  there usually is one after a Sutter exit.

 

One thing's for sure, if these first few games were the honeymoon run, then the 2024 draft is going to be Super exciting 😅

[travel_dude]

9 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I never felt that career year meant we were a contender. Never 

 

I think even JJ was on the wagon for that year.

But, what makes a contender is the ability to repeat.

You measure it year over year.

When you lose two top 3 players and a top 4 D, things change.

Quote contenders do not lose 220 combined points and have a chance to be a contender.

You can lose great players if you add great players, not 1 for 2.

A good coach can offset some of it with good decisions.

 

Going back to the playoffs, what happened in the 1st round?

Tkachuk messed up his hand.

Tanev had a guy fall on his back/shoulder.

Zadorov got messed up in a game.

Game 1 of round 2 was the strangest hockey game I have ever seen.

Coach was beside himself over scoring 9.

Outcoached by a rookie coach from then on.

 

The closest thing we had to a contender team was the year we lost to COL and the last year of JG.

We failed to follow up the first year with good trades, stable coaching and solid adds.

We failed to follow up the second time with sufficient replacements, good coaching and solid adds.

 

[jjgallow]

Just now, travel_dude said:

 

I think even JJ was on the wagon for that year.

 

 

Nope.  Bitter all regular season.  Not until the postseason, and I am always on the wagon if they make it to post-season.  That's just my policy, it really had nothing to do with their play.

 

It's also my policy to cheer for any remaining NHL team out of Alberta in the post-season, but last year I just couldn't do it.

[sak22]

1 hour ago, Sarasti said:

 

The thing to remember with those Kings teams as well is they likely would not have won if Quick wasn't playing otherworldly.

Sutter hockey RELIES on stellar goaltending when it comes down to it.

 

 

As for your second point I would like to see them try Coronato with Huby for the reasons you outlined

Quick in the 2nd run was pretty normal 2.58 and .911, that was an impressive team that had Kopitar at a P/PG, Carter with 25 points, Williams with 25 and just a game 7 beast, Gaborik with 14 goals, Doughty was solid.  Even his return here sure Markstrom was a Vezina candidate, but how many times did that guy go prolonged periods without seeing a shot, same thing last year just usually that next shot went in.  But with his first stint here in Kippers Vezina season he faces 1951 shots, the next year it was 2190 in the same amount of games and it was never below 2000 in a season until his workload got cut down.

 

I know last year is still fresh, but the amount of discrediting his success is a little overboard.  The guy is a good coach even in this era, his problem was his tactics are always going to wear out, and the reality is losing your two best players and trying to replace them externally is going to wind up as a disaster in most circumstances.  Either way Sutter is gone at what point do we move on, I don't really want to hear more excuses for Sutter having impact on this team, or anyone saying this team would be doing better with Sutter.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Nope.  Bitter all regular season.  Not until the postseason, and I am always on the wagon if they make it to post-season.  That's just my policy, it really had nothing to do with their play.

 

It's also my policy to cheer for any remaining NHL team out of Alberta in the post-season, but last year I just couldn't do it.

 

You note I didn't mention any particular wagon.  JK.

Really, I actually remember you being positive during the season, but I am loathe to cycle back through the threads where I would have read it.  Save your cycles, I wouldn't accuse you of "experiencing something differently".  Why you would be a Debbie Downer in a season like that is beyond me.  2nd in the NHL is GF/GA differential.  2nd lowest (IIRC) in GA.  How many shutouts for the two goalies combined.  Oh, as you always say a team starts from the net out.  The end result was a fail, so it doesn't matter.  

[jjgallow]

7 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

You note I didn't mention any particular wagon.  JK.

Really, I actually remember you being positive during the season, but I am loathe to cycle back through the threads where I would have read it.  Save your cycles, I wouldn't accuse you of "experiencing something differently".  Why you would be a Debbie Downer in a season like that is beyond me.  2nd in the NHL is GF/GA differential.  2nd lowest (IIRC) in GA.  How many shutouts for the two goalies combined.  Oh, as you always say a team starts from the net out.  The end result was a fail, so it doesn't matter.  

 

 

It's because I would never think of it as just one season.  

 

Regular season performance artificially enhanced through:

 

-Overplaying a hot but aging goalie   (goodbye playoffs and prospect development)

-Trading away first round picks for aging wingers (ie Toffoli)

-Trading away first round picks to solve contract issues for guys recovering from injuries, rather than actually help them recover (Monahan)

-Ignoring basic asset management on key players in contract years (Gaudreau, Tkachuk)

-Benching any prospects that needed help working through things, like Valimaki

 

 

With how I perceive things, it was a particularly brutal year.   On the contrary though, right now, I'm a lot better as we haven't yet signed any more aweful contracts or traded away any more picks.    When I look several years out I see hope, even if it's not immediate.

[travel_dude]

4 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

It's because I would never think of it as just one season.  

 

Regular season performance artificially enhanced through:

 

-Overplaying a hot but aging goalie   (goodbye playoffs and prospect development)

-Trading away first round picks for aging wingers (ie Toffoli)

-Trading away first round picks to solve contract issues for guys recovering from injuries, rather than actually help them recover (Monahan)

-Ignoring basic asset management on key players in contract years (Gaudreau, Tkachuk)

-Benching any prospects that needed help working through things, like Valimaki

 

 

With how I perceive things, it was a particularly brutal year.   On the contrary though, right now, I'm a lot better as we haven't yet signed any more aweful contracts or traded away any more picks.    When I look several years out I see hope, even if it's not immediate.

 

I have been pretty consistent in my belief that trading Monahan was a mistake, considering that we had alternatives.  We can argue about how realistic they were, but giving up a 1st for a contract that isn't hurting you is a mistake.  The Toffoli trade provided us with a needed RHS RW, who could easily be counter for 20+ goals per season.  You will like the fact we traded him to get younger and cheaper.  What did we actually give up in that 1st round pick and Heinemen?  MTL took a swing at Mesar.  Heinemen is another LHS LW.  Didn't lose any top prospects, even if I consider Heinemen to be a decent prospect.  

 

The coach definitely burned us by overplaying Markstrom, but it didn't impact prospect development.  It was putting too much trust in one goalie over the backup because that was the coach's mantra.  Poor coaching isn't artificially enhancing a regular season.  It's choosing to go one direction only.  I don't know Huska is any better but it's a change to the decision makers.

 

I was angry about them not re-signing Gaudreau in the previous season, but we may all have hated the number he wanted to sign for.  In hindsight, it would have been a good number.  Tkachuk was a douche, so no amount of blame can overcome that fact.  He was going to do whatever he wanted and his excuses about wanting to sign long term are just to take his blame away.  I don't buy it.  Since we got a top D-man out of the deal, I am not so miffed about it.  Huberdeau is polarizing as much as Gaudreau was.  Trading Gaudreau after a poor season was not going to net you top players in return.  

 

The good thing about last season was that is was sobering.  Made us take a hard look at the type of coaching we had, how that coach looks at NHL players and prospects, and his mantras for winning.  It ended the rein of terror and resulted in removing the GM you hated.  I don't think Connie is smarter, but he is not going to make high risk moves, so there's that.  

[tmac70]

15 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Hey Tmac70, I was a little glib in my response to you.  You have a right to your opinion.  You see it a certain way, as do I.  It's early is what I was getting at, so I won't trash you for your opinion.  I do think you have had this opinion for a long time so I doubt you will change it until we are tops in the league.  Maybe not even then.

In order to be offended I first have to respect you and your opinion.  

 

Now this statement is not personal nor should it be offensive, I don't know you personally to be offended. However, I will add that you do this constantly to multiple people on here who Don't see your opinion, which does offend them.

 

 If you or others wish to believe this club is on track to hoist a cup now or in the near future fine,  I don't share that position. My statement was and still is you can toss these players in a bag and shake the crap out its not going to change the ingredients you started with. 

 

We were a juggernaut in the mid to late 80s every year for 5-6 years this franchise iced a team that was a huge favorite to win a cup, there are my standards.  If the goal is to win then losing should not be accepted, what I see is too high of a comfort level and excuses that justify losing far too often. 

[jjgallow]

38 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

In order to be offended I first have to respect you and your opinion.  

 

Now this statement is not personal nor should it be offensive, I don't know you personally to be offended. However, I will add that you do this constantly to multiple people on here who Don't see your opinion, which does offend them.

 

 If you or others wish to believe this club is on track to hoist a cup now or in the near future fine,  I don't share that position. My statement was and still is you can toss these players in a bag and shake the crap out its not going to change the ingredients you started with. 

 

We were a juggernaut in the mid to late 80s every year for 5-6 years this franchise iced a team that was a huge favorite to win a cup, there are my standards.  If the goal is to win then losing should not be accepted, what I see is too high of a comfort level and excuses that justify losing far too often. 

 

gsus dude.   that first sentence.

 

your last two paragraphs are spot on imho.

Your first sentence is not okay, your first paragraph still doesn't make the first sentence okay.

 

Basically everything on the internet has respect others and their opinions in its terms.  For good reason.   I'm not saying you're the first to break those terms but...still.   Honestly, @travel_dude mostly posts in an attempt to find common ground and while I often also disagree, it's a lot better than the many others who have no interest in common ground or simply won't engage with anyone who has a different opinion (unless it's an insult).

 

Assuming @travel_dude doesn't ban you, which, I pretty much know he won't because of how he runs this (but he'd be well within the terms to do it lol), I think we need to make a new topic.

 

Your last two paragraphs resonate with me and I think they resonate with the majority of fans, actually.   There just has to be some kind of productive way of capturing it.

[Heartbreaker]

I have nothing but contempt for all of you!

 

Love.

[travel_dude]

38 minutes ago, Heartbreaker said:

I have nothing but contempt for all of you!

 

Love.

 

+1

I nearly fell off my chair.

[tmac70]

On 10/18/2023 at 11:01 AM, jjgallow said:

 

gsus dude.   that first sentence.

 

your last two paragraphs are spot on imho.

Your first sentence is not okay, your first paragraph still doesn't make the first sentence okay.

 

Basically everything on the internet has respect others and their opinions in its terms.  For good reason.   I'm not saying you're the first to break those terms but...still.   Honestly, @travel_dude mostly posts in an attempt to find common ground and while I often also disagree, it's a lot better than the many others who have no interest in common ground or simply won't engage with anyone who has a different opinion (unless it's an insult).

 

Assuming @travel_dude doesn't ban you, which, I pretty much know he won't because of how he runs this (but he'd be well within the terms to do it lol), I think we need to make a new topic.

 

Your last two paragraphs resonate with me and I think they resonate with the majority of fans, actually.   There just has to be some kind of productive way of capturing it.

  

 I don't get offended unless I have high personal respect for someone how is this an issue? I respect that everyone is entitled to opinions and their right to voice them and be respectful, but let's not forget how we got here. My comments were simply made to show that I am not personally or professionally affected by the comments of individuals I do not know.  

 

 

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, tmac70 said:

  

 I don't get offended unless I have high personal respect for someone how is this an issue? I respect that everyone is entitled to opinions and their right to voice them and be respectful, but let's not forget how we got here. My comments were simply made to show that I am not personally or professionally affected by the comments of individuals I do not know.  

 

 

You changed your wording.  So yes, I agree with you, what you originally wrote was an issue.

 

I am also nearly 100% aligned with most of what you write.   But everyone in here deserves respect, it's not like we're Oilers fans.