Training Camp 2023

[Thebrewcrew]

Rookie camp wraps up this week. It's that time of year.

 

Huska's first camp as Head Coach.

 

The first battle that interests me is in net. Wolf is an NHL goalie, but will he make the team? He has waiver eligibility and I think the Flames will use it. At least to start the season.

 

The blueline looks set. 

Weegar-Andersson

Hanifin-Tanev

Kylington-Zadorov

Oesterle

 

I think they'll give every opportunity for Coronato to make the team out of camp. The other young player I wonder about is Zary. Can he beat out Ruzicka as a 12th forward?

 

 

The Flames are cap-strapped. They'll only have room to carry 21 (likely Oesterle). 

[conundrumed]

Last year's camp saw the teams separated into NHL vs AHL. I approved thinking we could get the chemistry going early.

This year, I hope it's all a mashed up. Get a good look at where everyone is at playing with NHLers.

Wolf having a great camp concerns me because I absolutely despise the "numbers game".

"It's because he doesn't have to go through waivers" is the worst excuse to send a guy down. You just know a call-up may never happen once you pull that Satoshi Nakamoto.

I honestly don't give 2 Blockchains that we lost Valimaki to waivers. Your not good enough, goodbye. You pick it up elsewhere, congratulations. I don't give a Satoshi Nakamoto.

Put together the best you've got and don't dilly-dally worrying about losing someone.

If you have to waive Rosie, waive him, don't keep him up if someone else will make you better.

Make the hard decisions to keep your best players on the team.

Of course I won't be holding my breath.

[travel_dude]

8 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Last year's camp saw the teams separated into NHL vs AHL. I approved thinking we could get the chemistry going early.

This year, I hope it's all a mashed up. Get a good look at where everyone is at playing with NHLers.

Wolf having a great camp concerns me because I absolutely despise the "numbers game".

"It's because he doesn't have to go through waivers" is the worst excuse to send a guy down. You just know a call-up may never happen once you pull that Satoshi Nakamoto.

I honestly don't give 2 Blockchains that we lost Valimaki to waivers. Your not good enough, goodbye. You pick it up elsewhere, congratulations. I don't give a Satoshi Nakamoto.

Put together the best you've got and don't dilly-dally worrying about losing someone.

If you have to waive Rosie, waive him, don't keep him up if someone else will make you better.

Make the hard decisions to keep your best players on the team.

Of course I won't be holding my breath.

 

I would say that a lot of teams followed this last year.

It's getting harder to justify it.

Maybe that's why PTO's of decent players are being extended.

Used to be fringers and past primers.

 

Anyway, I think it will be hard to justify Vladar over Wolf.

Maybe camp doesn't show it, but I'm not sure how you run 3 goalies in that case.

Probably should unless we deal one of the vets.

CC doesn't seem to have any deals lined up.

 

The waiving of Valimaki was annoying because they kept other guys up that could have been waived as easily.

Whether he was useless or not, we kept a guy who Sutter suggested was more mature.

No better, just less noisy.

Pelletier sent down, but others kept up.

That wasn't a surprise with that coach.

The GM had no control, just whatever Sutter wanted.

 

I agree about waiving players but it has to be reasonable.

A replacement level that "beats" a higher level prospect doesn't mean we should waive the prospect.

Not directly.  The numbers game may make that necessary, but wasting a prospect for a short term gain is just dumb.

 

[jjgallow]

14 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Last year's camp saw the teams separated into NHL vs AHL. I approved thinking we could get the chemistry going early.

This year, I hope it's all a mashed up. Get a good look at where everyone is at playing with NHLers.

 

yup

 

14 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Wolf having a great camp concerns me because I absolutely despise the "numbers game".

"It's because he doesn't have to go through waivers" is the worst excuse to send a guy down. You just know a call-up may never happen once you pull that Satoshi Nakamoto.

 

That's a pretty bad excuse, I agree. but the worst excuse?   I think that's reserved for 

 

"Treliving signed Markstrom to an eternity, making him impossible to move"

 

14 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I honestly don't give 2 Blockchains that we lost Valimaki to waivers. Your not good enough, goodbye. You pick it up elsewhere, congratulations. I don't give a Satoshi Nakamoto.

 

He was good enough imho, and I care.  Some of the guys who replaced him were not good enough.  But I'm willing to let it go.

 

14 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Put together the best you've got and don't dilly-dally worrying about losing someone.

If you have to waive Rosie, waive him, don't keep him up if someone else will make you better.

Make the hard decisions to keep your best players on the team.

Of course I won't be holding my breath.

 

I don't think we're in any danger of losing our first-round D pick this year, since we uh...don't have any to speak of lol.

 

I don't see a Valimaki situation unfolding and thus I agree you send down who you send down.  

 

For once, I'd like to be the team that picks a good prospect up on waivers though.

 

[robrob74]

16 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

yup

 

 

That's a pretty bad excuse, I agree. but the worst excuse?   I think that's reserved for 

 

"Treliving signed Markstrom to an eternity, making him impossible to move"

 

 

He was good enough imho, and I care.  Some of the guys who replaced him were not good enough.  But I'm willing to let it go.

 

 

I don't think we're in any danger of losing our first-round D pick this year, since we uh...don't have any to speak of lol.

 

I don't see a Valimaki situation unfolding and thus I agree you send down who you send down.  

 

For once, I'd like to be the team that picks a good prospect up on waivers though.

 

 

I think the one that is iffy is, if Wolf outplays Vladar and we choose to send Vladar down, we'd lose him on waivers... so just be ok with that. It would be great to get a pick back...

[jjgallow]

24 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I think the one that is iffy is, if Wolf outplays Vladar and we choose to send Vladar down, we'd lose him on waivers... so just be ok with that. It would be great to get a pick back...

 

True, true.

 

That's one of those things where if Vladar gets outplayed, maybe it's okay to lose him on Waivers.  

 

Vladar is not a spring chicken, so a little different in that sense from Valimaki.

 

We need that 5 player trade with Toronto so BT can pick up Markstrom.

[travel_dude]

19 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I think the one that is iffy is, if Wolf outplays Vladar and we choose to send Vladar down, we'd lose him on waivers... so just be ok with that. It would be great to get a pick back...

 

So, here's the thing.  Vladar had a very good season when coaching and D and scoring and chemistry didn't suck.  Then he had a poor season not during his win streak.  Overall, it was a failed season by most metrics.  I can understand the concept of trading him.  I can get the idea that a lesser pick for the trade is not as acceptable.  But I don't get the idea that we waive him.  A 3rd to 5th is somehow worse than losing him for nothing?  Same cap results.  Doesn't fly with me.  Especially considering that a single Markstrom injury and we are Wolf/Dansk in response.  Yikes.  Yes, a trade is the same result.  Running 3 goalies perhaps shakes out more info about what we have and possibly at least a 3rd to 2nd for a Vladar trade because of timing.  Backup goalies tend to get claimed if they have NHL experience and aren't total scrubs. 

 

Sounds like I am arguing two sides of it, but really just pointing out that waiving Vladar would be bad.    

[robrob74]

38 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

So, here's the thing.  Vladar had a very good season when coaching and D and scoring and chemistry didn't suck.  Then he had a poor season not during his win streak.  Overall, it was a failed season by most metrics.  I can understand the concept of trading him.  I can get the idea that a lesser pick for the trade is not as acceptable.  But I don't get the idea that we waive him.  A 3rd to 5th is somehow worse than losing him for nothing?  Same cap results.  Doesn't fly with me.  Especially considering that a single Markstrom injury and we are Wolf/Dansk in response.  Yikes.  Yes, a trade is the same result.  Running 3 goalies perhaps shakes out more info about what we have and possibly at least a 3rd to 2nd for a Vladar trade because of timing.  Backup goalies tend to get claimed if they have NHL experience and aren't total scrubs. 

 

Sounds like I am arguing two sides of it, but really just pointing out that waiving Vladar would be bad.    

but many here also have a problem with sending Wolf to the AHL having nothing left to prove there. 
 

im just stating facts. I have no opinion. I guess I do, I'd play wolf in the AHL and bring him up here and there, but others stated that as problematic too. So maybe we just play three and force the coaches to have one less roster spot. Either way someone is sent down. 

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

but many here also have a problem with sending Wolf to the AHL having nothing left to prove there. 
 

im just stating facts. I have no opinion. I guess I do, I'd play wolf in the AHL and bring him up here and there, but others stated that as problematic too. So maybe we just play three and force the coaches to have one less roster spot. Either way someone is sent down. 

 

Well, here is a list of players without waiver protection we have to send down that probably won't have a real shot at making the team:

Pettersen

Jones

Pospisil

Bishop

Hunt

Rooney

Poolman

DiSimone

Dansk

 

On forward, we only have 12, and only Pelletier and Coronato are exempt.

On D, we have 8 and Gilbert is the 8th.

 

As of now, we really only have extras on D, and that's being generous.

We could opt to keep up one F if we run 8D.

I don't see the logic there, since we have 7 full time D anyway.

 

13F with Zary or Stromgren, or perhaps one of the older Flames prospects (MEP or Pospisil or Nikolayev).

7D

3G

Not ideal running 3 goalies, but Wolf in the AHL means playing to AHL level then coming up and playing to NHL level.

Meanwhile you say you are good enough but we won't pay you full time.

[rocketdoctor]

Send Wolfie down to start.   No doubt a few goalies get injured around the league and Vladar can be traded to one of them.   Rathher Wolf got 10 starts in the AHL then sit on the bench for the first 10 in the NHL.

 

 

 

[conundrumed]

11 hours ago, jjgallow said:

That's a pretty bad excuse, I agree. but the worst excuse?   I think that's reserved for 

 

"Treliving signed Markstrom to an eternity, making him impossible to move"

There will be quite a few goalies equal to Vladar that will need to clear waivers. Detroit alone will need to clear Alex Lyon, who showed success with helping FLA get to the playoffs last year. Unless Reimer gets hurt, which is almost likely.

But Wolf is currently just a scenario and perhaps not quite ready as he's really young. I wouldn't hate to see Vladar get a large volume of A starts though.

How do we improve treating everyone as irreplaceable?

11 hours ago, jjgallow said:

He was good enough imho, and I care.  Some of the guys who replaced him were not good enough.  But I'm willing to let it go

He played bottom 6 in the A the year before. ARI is horrible. Valimaki isn't making the avg NHL team's roster. That Mackey didn't work out is whatever as well. Neither are making a difference on good NHL teams.

Oesterle is a better 7D on an avg team. He'd be top 4 on ARI too because they lack defencemen. Most teams don't, so neither of those players are of any consequence.

We just stay married to/overrate our players for no reason.

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, conundrumed said:

There will be quite a few goalies equal to Vladar that will need to clear waivers. Detroit alone will need to clear Alex Lyon, who showed success with helping FLA get to the playoffs last year. Unless Reimer gets hurt, which is almost likely.

But Wolf is currently just a scenario and perhaps not quite ready as he's really young. I wouldn't hate to see Vladar get a large volume of A starts though.

How do we improve treating everyone as irreplaceable?

 

With regards to the Vladar scenario, I completely agree with you.  I take issue with Valimaki.   I don't take issue with Vladar.   But...  I would like to see him given a chance for a few games first.   If he doesn't recover his game early after being given a chance this year, then absolutely send him down, two bad years in a row, in his supposed prime, you don't completely give up on him but you do make room for others.

 

4 hours ago, conundrumed said:

He played bottom 6 in the A the year before. ARI is horrible. Valimaki isn't making the avg NHL team's roster. That Mackey didn't work out is whatever as well. Neither are making a difference on good NHL teams.

Oesterle is a better 7D on an avg team. He'd be top 4 on ARI too because they lack defencemen. Most teams don't, so neither of those players are of any consequence.

We just stay married to/overrate our players for no reason.

 

I specifically don't agree with you on Valimaki but I do agree with you on the overall concept, particularly staying married to our players.

 

That applies to the first line too.   Those long term contracts BT left us with.    

 

I might be more open to agreeing with you on Valimaki...maybe, if we had about 4 more legit D prospects than we do right now.  Our complete lack of a D pipeline makes me sensitive lol.    Even goaltending.... we have too much riding on Wolf right now and I do not like the steep dropoff after him.

[bosn111]

So based on Conroy’s comments, the showing of young prospects at the tourney, the lack of cap space, the lack of trades, and the glut of NHL D already in place, we are unlikely to see any PTOs at camp, especially not Bear on D.

 

Cap friendly shows the Flames 200k over the cap with 12F, 8D and 2G. They likely need to send Gilbert down just to get under cap. This includes Kylington in the lineup, Pelletier, Coronato, Duehr and Ruzicka as well. No cap space for Wolf as 3G, and no spare F.

 

Basically Connie needs to make some kind of a trade to clear cap space. The only returning players without trade protection that would free up cap space are Vladar, Kylington, Zadorov, Andersson, Dube and Lindholm.

 

Andersson likely the only untouchable though the returns on most of the others would likely not be enough (Lindholm) or leave holes to fill with less effective players. Vladar is the biggest question due to Wolf.

 

Moving Zaddy and bringing in Bear could make sense. Lower cap hit due to late signing and fairly equal skill levels? Move Vladar and use Wolf, hoping he is ready? Those are the only options that really make sense to me.

 

 

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, bosn111 said:

So based on Conroy’s comments, the showing of young prospects at the tourney, the lack of cap space, the lack of trades, and the glut of NHL D already in place, we are unlikely to see any PTOs at camp, especially not Bear on D.

 

Cap friendly shows the Flames 200k over the cap with 12F, 8D and 2G. They likely need to send Gilbert down just to get under cap. This includes Kylington in the lineup, Pelletier, Coronato, Duehr and Ruzicka as well. No cap space for Wolf as 3G, and no spare F.

 

Basically Connie needs to make some kind of a trade to clear cap space. The only returning players without trade protection that would free up cap space are Vladar, Kylington, Zadorov, Andersson, Dube and Lindholm.

 

Andersson likely the only untouchable though the returns on most of the others would likely not be enough (Lindholm) or leave holes to fill with less effective players. Vladar is the biggest question due to Wolf.

 

Moving Zaddy and bringing in Bear could make sense. Lower cap hit due to late signing and fairly equal skill levels? Move Vladar and use Wolf, hoping he is ready? Those are the only options that really make sense to me.

 

 

 

 

I might suggest this is actually pretty roomy.

 

 

It means that you'll be 200k over if you don't have any camp disappointments and everyone performs adequately and nobody gets injured and nobody has family emergencies and there are no trades and there are no contract holdouts and nobody tests positive for something they shouldn't.

If you're the GM, imho, this problem actually materializing would be a dream compared the many more likely  problems he will run into.

 

I agree that Andersson will likely be untouchable although if it were me lol, nobody would be untouchable.  The closest to untouchable would be Wolf, but just depends on the price.

[conundrumed]

3 hours ago, bosn111 said:

So based on Conroy’s comments, the showing of young prospects at the tourney, the lack of cap space, the lack of trades, and the glut of NHL D already in place, we are unlikely to see any PTOs at camp, especially not Bear on D.

 

Cap friendly shows the Flames 200k over the cap with 12F, 8D and 2G. They likely need to send Gilbert down just to get under cap. This includes Kylington in the lineup, Pelletier, Coronato, Duehr and Ruzicka as well. No cap space for Wolf as 3G, and no spare F.

 

Basically Connie needs to make some kind of a trade to clear cap space. The only returning players without trade protection that would free up cap space are Vladar, Kylington, Zadorov, Andersson, Dube and Lindholm.

 

Andersson likely the only untouchable though the returns on most of the others would likely not be enough (Lindholm) or leave holes to fill with less effective players. Vladar is the biggest question due to Wolf.

 

Moving Zaddy and bringing in Bear could make sense. Lower cap hit due to late signing and fairly equal skill levels? Move Vladar and use Wolf, hoping he is ready? Those are the only options that really make sense to me.

 

 

Thanks, as always, for showing that break down.

I always have this mental cartoon playing in my head of BT:

"What? The cap isn't going up much? I've gotta gtf outta here".

He really left Conroy with very little wiggle room. Almost zero maneuverability. I can't forgive that part. He pretty much maxed us right out and ran away.

I recall @cross16 wondering, "why did you give Vladar that contract"?

This is BT's mess. I can't help but give Conroy a pass. Wtf is he supposed to do? This is what BT left for him.

Conroy's really left with, "do what you've gotta do" imho. It's not Conroy's fault.

[bosn111]

I am definitely not blaming Conroy as I agree that BT, with input from Sutter, left the Flames in this mess. 
 

I can’t give Connie a complete pass yet as Osterle and Sharangovich are Conroy adds. As long as Osterle can pitch in once in a while as 7D, I have no complaints. Sharangovich May turn out to be a steal at 3.1, but we don’t know yet. If he turns out to be bottom 6 rather than top 6, then the contract was too high. As such, I am holding judgement on Connie for the first half of the season.

[travel_dude]

[travel_dude]

[JTech780]

Based on the groups these lines or pairs loo to start the season together:

 

Huberdeau-Lindholm-Sharangovich - These 3 are on Team Vernon, Pelletier, Coronato , Honzek and Zary are also in that group.

 

Zadorov, Weegar, Hanifin, Andersson - Are all sakting on Team Vernon as well. So i think we could see some combination of those 4, my guess is Hanifin-Andersson, Zadorov-Weegar.

 

Dube, Kadri, Mangiapane, Backlund, Ruzicka, Coleman - Backlund and Coleman are a lock to be on the same line again. Kadri will center the 2nd line. I think Dube, Mangiapane and Ruzicka are probably going to be skating in some form with either Backlind or Kadri.

 

Kylington-Tanev - These two are most likely going to make up the 3rd pair and are skating together on Team Iginla.

 

Gilbert and Oesterle - These two are also on Team Iginla and will be fighting for the 7th defenseman spot in camp.

 

Markstrom and Vladar vs Wolf and Dansk - These are the goalie tandems for Team Vernon and Iginla, so we can guess that these are the tandems for the Flames and Wranglers to start the season at least.

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, JTech780 said:

Based on the groups these lines or pairs loo to start the season together:

 

Huberdeau-Lindholm-Sharangovich - These 3 are on Team Vernon, Pelletier, Coronato , Honzek and Zary are also in that group.

 

Zadorov, Weegar, Hanifin, Andersson - Are all sakting on Team Vernon as well. So i think we could see some combination of those 4, my guess is Hanifin-Andersson, Zadorov-Weegar.

 

Dube, Kadri, Mangiapane, Backlund, Ruzicka, Coleman - Backlund and Coleman are a lock to be on the same line again. Kadri will center the 2nd line. I think Dube, Mangiapane and Ruzicka are probably going to be skating in some form with either Backlind or Kadri.

 

Kylington-Tanev - These two are most likely going to make up the 3rd pair and are skating together on Team Iginla.

 

Gilbert and Oesterle - These two are also on Team Iginla and will be fighting for the 7th defenseman spot in camp.

 

Markstrom and Vladar vs Wolf and Dansk - These are the goalie tandems for Team Vernon and Iginla, so we can guess that these are the tandems for the Flames and Wranglers to start the season at least.

 

Based on starting Kylington-Tanev together, you almost get the sense that is a pairing they want to get back to.  It may not be the best idea but it was successful when they last used it.  What it does do is put Hanifin with either Andersson or Zadorov.  To me, Zadorov-Weegar makes zero sense.  Just because I see Zadorov as a likely 3rd pairing player you give less minutes to.  Haven't seen Hanifin-Zadorov, which takes a skater and a (could be) stay at home defender and pairs them.  That implies you shift Zadorov to shutdown and let him defend the net, which Hanifin is weker at.  Weegar and Andersson are our two top pairing guys that should play the most minutes IMHO.  I think the even minutes will be mostly evenly divided up, so special teams will likely be the big difference.  Tanev, Hanifin and Zadorov more on the PK and Weegar, Andersson and Kylington more on the PP.  Weegar and Andersson playing on the PK as well.  

 

I think you may have sized up the second forward group pretty well.  The first group intrigues me because I don't know how you fit in Coronato and Pelletier with them.  Are they combining Coronato and Pelletier as the 4th line option, with Zary?  Dunno.  Too early to speculate, but it's interesting to see the early groupings,  Think we wasted too much time last year on players with zero chance of getting jobs.  Honzek is here to assess not get a job.  There are maybe one or two fringe players that could steal a spot.  Pettersen or Pospisil.  Some others that may be options for other reasons; Klapka for size, Stromgren for speed.  Think they may just be better call up options than pushing down current players like Pelletier or Ruzicka or Duehr.

[Otown72]

So the Calgary Flames just announced that after a physical and medical examination Oliver K will not be able to participate in training camp.😓

Was really looking forward to to his speed coming back.

Whatever it is hope he gets it resolved and wish him tge best.

 

 

[JTech780]

9 minutes ago, Otown72 said:

So the Calgary Flames just announced that after a physical and medical examination Oliver K will not be able to participate in training camp.😓

Was really looking forward to to his speed coming back.

Whatever it is hope he gets it resolved and wish him tge best.

 

 

They changed the wording of the original release to say that he won’t be able to participate today.

[JTech780]

I think they are trying spread out the minutes on the back end and also limit Tanev’s minutes to try and keep him in the lineup. This also maintains the L-R.

 

Looks like they might be giving Rooney an opportunity to earn that 4th line center job and making Coronato earn his way onto the roster.

[zima]

14 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

They changed the wording of the original release to say that he won’t be able to participate today.

Isn't that what they kinda said last yr ? I hope he doesn't miss another season?

[zima]

10 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

I think they are trying spread out the minutes on the back end and also limit Tanev’s minutes to try and keep him in the lineup. This also maintains the L-R.

 

Looks like they might be giving Rooney an opportunity to earn that 4th line center job and making Coronato earn his way onto the roster.

Doesn't this ;lineup scare you ppl I don't have much confidence in this seasons players other than Hubs and Linds I don't see much of a threat on this team. I know what just said isn't going to go over well but you must admit we are very shallow on  power forwards I know mang and duby are not there but even with them I don't see much of a team that can compete.